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15 hours ago, ColtV said:

“Respectfully, he has to do much more. For the Colts to compete for the  conference, Wentz needs to replicate his 2017 season and be available for all 16 games.”

 

This. This is key. So much so that I believe the last FA Ballard brings in could be a vet QB. If Wentz goes down (history proves he likely will at some point), are you comfortable trotting out Eason and Ehlinger for the duration of the Wentz injury? Neither would I. While I would love to get a live game action look at both the young QBs, trusting them starting games in anything other than a lost season should be done with great caution.

Having said that, If Wentz balls out, but happens to miss a handful of games to injury, we likely get our 1st rounder next year and can still roll with Carson, so I guess there is some consolation.

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I think the National Media is scared, scared to admit that Philly just ran a Franchise QB out of town all while firing the head coach that "supposedly" didn't even speak with his QB for the majority o

ALL ABOARD THE WENTZ WAGON!

- Let me see here, will Wentz be bad, below average, average, above average, good, very good, or great. I am concentrating, searching for the answer. 

17 hours ago, tvturner said:

Wentz has been on a steady decline in DVOA since 2017...

From 6 to 13 to 20 to 36

 

Him going from 36 to the top 10 is extremely unlikely and would be something that's never been done in the history of the NFL for any QB

 

Sure he's had iffy rosters and supporting casts but there's still a lot of issues with him specifically

 

All he should be trying to do is be as good as Rivers was last year because he's not gonna break history

 

This team's success relies on what version of Wentz we're getting, the bottom 2 starter version or the top 16 QB version. 

 

tvturner smashing everyone's hopes and dreams: 

 

HonestMedicalDobermanpinscher-max-1mb.gi

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1 hour ago, fatboy said:

Rivers had a nice season, but if he returned, i’d been happy but a voice in my head would be saying “he’s painfully immobile, and that will be our eventual downfall.”  Without Rivers, it’s likely a veteran QB or trading up for Rookie.  The Rookie option required a ton of draft picks (meaning not drafting Edge pass rushers) for a “shot in the dark” Rookie QB.  With Wentz, we know he has shown high level of play and we hope he can get his mojo back.  It seems to be a good gamble; if he falters, we’ll be out a 1st (or 2nd) Round pick and we go from there.  If he succeeds, we’re out a 1st and we dance gleefully.  The wildcard is injury - we have no apparent backup to hold the team steady even for a series or two.  

 

 

The rookie didnt require a ton of picks....Chicago acquired a QB for relatively little.

If a rookie QB is a huge unknown, the same applies to the rookie pass rushers.

Wentz is a big unknown as well.

 

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4 minutes ago, Colt.45 said:

 

 

The rookie didnt require a ton of picks....Chicago acquired a QB for relatively little.

If a rookie QB is a huge unknown, the same applies to the rookie pass rushers.

Wentz is a big unknown as well.

 

Wentz has 5 years of starting. He isn’t a unknown.

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35 minutes ago, Wentzszn said:

Wentz has 5 years of starting. He isn’t a unknown.

He's an unknown. He has 5 years of wildly varying performance. From MVP level to XFL level, there's a reason for the narrative, it's not just because the national media are *.

Even Chris Ballard said we don't know what we're getting until the bullets start flying. We think he can play but we'll see. 

 

 

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11 hours ago, LJpalmbeacher2 said:

 

I didn't read the article but did hear Cowherd talk about it. He didn't like it either, mostly because instead of listing them in order of talent, they had adjectival tiers which he felt was stupid. 

Wentz was listed in the "shaky ground" tier. Coming off a season where he was probably one of the lowest rated if not the lowest rated QB I didn't have a problem with that. 

I mean what other tier should he have been put in??    Elite? ..... no.    Ascending?...... certainly not lol.

 

I believe even Watson was in shaky ground tier, the 3rd Best QB in the league!

 

It was just a stupid article in a slow time of year and the different tiers were stupid as well.

 

Wentz will have his chance to show that 2020 was not who he really is but I doubt that our TE we drafted in 4th round will elevate the TE group into such a force.:D

 

 

Granted, I wanted Tommy Tremble from ND - but Kylen Granson and his Dallas Clarkesque abilities after the catch appeal to me!

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 Actually, he is known to the highest degree by Reich. The voice that matters.
He no doubt watched his tape from the suck year last season, has talked to Carson, and believes he can set him up to be highly effective.
 The **** from talking heads IS just bla bla bla. Meaningless tripe.
 As for what Ballard spoke, this is how a very wise grown up addresses the talking heads. No hype, we work hard with a great attitude, trying to get a little better every day, so let's just wait and see what the Team looks like.

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1 hour ago, Colt.45 said:

 

 

The rookie didnt require a ton of picks....Chicago acquired a QB for relatively little.

If a rookie QB is a huge unknown, the same applies to the rookie pass rushers.

Wentz is a big unknown as well.

 

They gave up their 1st round pick this year and their 5th round pick this year plus their 1st round pick next year and their 4th round pick next year.  Then they drafted Fields, who many believe in.   If he turns out to be great, the trade is worth it, but how many times has this worked for Chicago?

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18 minutes ago, Myles said:

They gave up their 1st round pick this year and their 5th round pick this year plus their 1st round pick next year and their 4th round pick next year.  Then they drafted Fields, who many believe in.   If he turns out to be great, the trade is worth it, but how many times has this worked for Chicago?

Thry only switched first round picks. They didn’t give it up.  That is pretty darn cheap to move up for a QB.

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37 minutes ago, Scott Pennock said:

Granted, I wanted Tommy Tremble from ND - but Kylen Granson and his Dallas Clarkesque abilities after the catch appeal to me!

Ballard was really talking up Granson yesterday with Holder and Keefer.  Apparently he is really impressing them.

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2 hours ago, Nevbot said:

This. This is key. So much so that I believe the last FA Ballard brings in could be a vet QB. If Wentz goes down (history proves he likely will at some point), are you comfortable trotting out Eason and Ehlinger for the duration of the Wentz injury? Neither would I. While I would love to get a live game action look at both the young QBs, trusting them starting games in anything other than a lost season should be done with great caution.

Having said that, If Wentz balls out, but happens to miss a handful of games to injury, we likely get our 1st rounder next year and can still roll with Carson, so I guess there is some consolation.

Holder said from what he has been told they are comfortable with Eason as the backup but  if a vet becomes available they really like they won’t rule it out. That’s when Holder and JMV got into a discussion of what if Nick Foles becomes available. LMAO

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51 minutes ago, Scott Pennock said:

Granted, I wanted Tommy Tremble from ND - but Kylen Granson and his Dallas Clarkesque abilities after the catch appeal to me!

 

I think he'll be ok if not better. But our TE group was maybe the weakest unit we had and my point was the single addition of Granson will not make them a huge weapon for us. 

 

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19 minutes ago, Wentzszn said:

Thry only switched first round picks. They didn’t give it up.  That is pretty darn cheap to move up for a QB.

Umm.....Bears gave up their first round pick, a 5th rounder and 2022 1st and 4th to select Fields.  That’s not “darn cheap.”  We traded for Wentz and can’t undo the trade anyway, but trading would leave us with Wentz and Fields.  Is that what you want?  If we unload Wentz, is Fields a sure fire upgrade?  We couldn’t trade next year’s 1st (as it’s in play to complete Wentz trade), we’d have given up this year’s 1st and 2nd, plus a lot more due to no first rounder to trade in 2022. So once again, we would not have addressed the pass rush issue at the very least for an opportunity for a Rookie QB.  Maybe it’s just me, but I’m thinking getting a starting QB in the off-season and addressing the pass rush problem is a much better approach!   

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1 minute ago, fatboy said:

Umm.....Bears gave up their first round pick, a 5th rounder and 2022 1st and 4th to select Fields.  That’s not “darn cheap.”  We traded for Wentz and can’t undo the trade anyway, but trading would leave us with Wentz and Fields.  Is that what you want?  If we unload Wentz, is Fields a sure fire upgrade?  We couldn’t trade next year’s 1st (as it’s in play to complete Wentz trade), we’d have given up this year’s 1st and 2nd, plus a lot more due to no first rounder to trade in 2022. So once again, we would not have addressed the pass rush issue at the very least for an opportunity for a Rookie QB.  Maybe it’s just me, but I’m thinking getting a starting QB in the off-season and addressing the pass rush problem is a much better approach!   

No they didn’t. They got the 11th pick and took fields. That isn’t giving up a first round pick: So basically only one first round pick next year and some later round picks.

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31 minutes ago, Wentzszn said:

No they didn’t. They got the 11th pick and took fields. That isn’t giving up a first round pick: So basically only one first round pick next year and some later round picks.

Giants get:

2021 first round pick (number 20)

2021 fifth round pick

2022 first round pick

2022 4th round pick

 

Bears get:

2021 first round pick (number 11)

 

Not horrible if Fields ends up being great.  bummer for the Bears if he doesn't.   I don't think I was born yet the last time the Bears had a top 5 QB in the league.

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1 hour ago, Myles said:

They gave up their 1st round pick this year and their 5th round pick this year plus their 1st round pick next year and their 4th round pick next year.  Then they drafted Fields, who many believe in.   If he turns out to be great, the trade is worth it, but how many times has this worked for Chicago?

This is my fear for that organization. Honestly if the Colts gave up the exact same, i'd call it relatively cheap. I'm of the belief that a lot of these guys wind up 'busting' because of the teams they go to. I want Joe Douglas to do well in NY but that's an organization with a history of failure and dysfunction, i expect the Zach Wilson experiment to go pretty similarly to how the Sam Darnold one went.

 

The price? Relatively cheap at least compared to what we thought it'd be BEFORE Wentz was acquired.

The player? We'll see. 

 

Fields may have been one of those guys Ballard mentioned who the Colts just didnt have on the board. Who knows.

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1 hour ago, Wentzszn said:

No they didn’t. They got the 11th pick and took fields. That isn’t giving up a first round pick: So basically only one first round pick next year and some later round .  
 

 

 

They gave up their 1st Round pick plus a 5th and two premium picks in 2022 to move up nine spots.  They really really did give up their 20th pick!  I swear!  They used it plus the other three picks aforementioned to move up nine slots.  Are you arguing that they used all these picks to move up and still pick in the first round?  Duh.  I’d hope if a team uses two first rounders, a 2nd and a 5th would result in moving up in the first round.  

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4 hours ago, Nevbot said:

This. This is key. So much so that I believe the last FA Ballard brings in could be a vet QB. If Wentz goes down (history proves he likely will at some point), are you comfortable trotting out Eason and Ehlinger for the duration of the Wentz injury? Neither would I. While I would love to get a live game action look at both the young QBs, trusting them starting games in anything other than a lost season should be done with great caution.

Having said that, If Wentz balls out, but happens to miss a handful of games to injury, we likely get our 1st rounder next year and can still roll with Carson, so I guess there is some consolation.

 

You would rather have a vet that has yet to be signed by a team start at QB for the Colts over our young QBs? Not me. 

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1 hour ago, Myles said:

Giants get:

2021 first round pick (number 20)

2021 fifth round pick

2022 first round pick

2022 4th round pick

 

Bears get:

2021 first round pick (number 11)

 

Not horrible if Fields ends up being great.  bummer for the Bears if he doesn't.   I don't think I was born yet the last time the Bears had a top 5 QB in the league.

 

I doubt anyone here was born when Sid Luckman played.

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5 hours ago, Four2itus said:

Allow me to clarify "unknown". Tim Tebow at TE is an unknown. Carson Wentz at QB is not. 

For 2021, I'd absolutely argue that Wentz is unknown, in that no one knows what we're getting. When you have that wild variance between him being QB34 and QB2, that's unknown territory I'd say. You don't know if you're getting prime Andrew Luck, or if you'd have been better off sticking with Jacoby Brissett.

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7 hours ago, Myles said:

Giants get:

2021 first round pick (number 20)

2021 fifth round pick

2022 first round pick

2022 4th round pick

 

Bears get:

2021 first round pick (number 11)

 

Not horrible if Fields ends up being great.  bummer for the Bears if he doesn't.   I don't think I was born yet the last time the Bears had a top 5 QB in the league.

Not really a huge fan of Fields, but I think he can be good.

I think going to Bears is a bit of a curse though (for a QB).

When you have to go back to the 50s for your greatest QB of all time, and when more than 50% of the people won't even recognize that person, you know you have a poor track record....

 

At least there's a very low bar set for Fields lol.

 

Sid_Luckman_illustration__design_by_Will

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11 hours ago, Myles said:

They gave up their 1st round pick this year and their 5th round pick this year plus their 1st round pick next year and their 4th round pick next year.  Then they drafted Fields, who many believe in.   If he turns out to be great, the trade is worth it, but how many times has this worked for Chicago?

It's worked out for them before....in 1939

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I would accept "average" with Wentz at the beginning of the season and hope that he becomes more and more comfortable with the offense and feels like the whole game is not on his shoulders. Just be an NFL quarterback. Go through the progressions and take what the defense gives. Don't do stupid things and turn the ball over. When the games get bigger, I hope he is able to step up when necessary.

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Hopefully Wentz will step up and prove his worth.  No excuses now.  He has the tools to work with, Oline, running game, and a defense to keep games in check.  Our GM and Coach seems to believe in him so I'm putting my trust in them.  We can win with the team we have if our QB does his job.

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On 5/12/2021 at 1:20 AM, EastStreet said:

I'm getting more and more optimistic. In terms of career stats

 

          Comp%   TD%  INT%    PR    ANY/A  Sack%

Luck     60.8       5.2     2.5      89.5    6.42      5.0

Wentz  62.7       4.5     2.0      89.2    5.87      6.7

 

Similar in a lot of ways. I think Luck had better pass catchers most years. And even with Wentz's horrible 2020, their numbers aren't far off.


But Luck’s career stats are bogged down by his rookie season (which passer rating hated) and a season in which he actually was hurt. 
 

Luck’s performance from age 27 (his season before he would play with Reich) was much better than Wentz’s age 28 season (his season before he will play here). Luck was ascending...Wentz fell fast.


And Luck was on a pretty poor Colts roster with a bad OL in 2016. Wentz played awful in a not too dissimilar situation.

 

Good, let alone great, QBs don’t just bomb their early prime seasons like Wentz did. 
 

A bounce back season (from where Wentz was last year) into a legit top 10 QB is unprecedented. Not saying it can’t happen, but the smart money would be against it. 
 

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1 minute ago, shasta519 said:


But Luck’s career stats are bogged down by his rookie season (which passer rating hated) and a season in which he actually was hurt. 
 

Luck’s performance from age 27 (his season before he would play with Reich) was much better than Wentz’s age 28 season (his season before he will play here). Luck was ascending...Wentz fell fast.


And Luck was on a pretty poor Colts roster with a bad OL in 2016. Wentz played awful in a not too dissimilar situation.

 

Good, let alone great, QBs don’t just bomb their early prime seasons like Wentz did. 
 

A bounce back season (from where Wentz was last year) into a legit top 10 QB is unprecedented. Not saying it can’t happen, but the smart money would be against it. 
 

As of now just by the eye test (my eye test anyway), Luck was the better QB. I think many would agree. With the comeback wins, 3 straight 11 win seasons, etc. and he did it with no run game from 2012-2014. I hope Wentz can play like 2014 Luck where Luck threw for 40 TD's, if he does that we have a chance to win the SB

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11 hours ago, Colt.45 said:

For 2021, I'd absolutely argue that Wentz is unknown, in that no one knows what we're getting. When you have that wild variance between him being QB34 and QB2, that's unknown territory I'd say. You don't know if you're getting prime Andrew Luck, or if you'd have been better off sticking with Jacoby Brissett.


Yep. And one of those variants happened last season...the other FOUR seasons ago. 
 

Interestingly, another player with similar variance is his former teammate, Nick Foles. Wentz is a better QB, with more experience, but both had great seasons at age 24-25...followed by up and down play. And while Foles put it all together for a couple of stretches during his prime, he was still that same player with huge variance.

 

Like you said...it’s just unknown territory

with a guy like Wentz. Nothing wrong with being optimistic and nothing with being unsure.

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19 hours ago, Wentzszn said:

No they didn’t. They got the 11th pick and took fields. That isn’t giving up a first round pick: So basically only one first round pick next year and some later round picks.


Yeah...they didn’t give up that pick...they used it. Like the Colts did with their pick when they took Paye. Nobody says they gave up a 1st round pick for Paye.

 

You only hear 1st round picks as being “given up” when there are big trade ups. Seems like it’s done for sensationalistic purposes. 

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On 5/11/2021 at 2:56 PM, tvturner said:

Wentz has been on a steady decline in DVOA since 2017...

From 6 to 13 to 20 to 36

 

Him going from 36 to the top 10 is extremely unlikely and would be something that's never been done in the history of the NFL for any QB


Unlikely, but it wouldn’t be the first time he’s the first QB to do something. Wentz’s career has been unprecedented to this point. Check out this article, very interesting read.


https://www.nbcsports.com/philadelphia/eagles/10-crazy-stats-remember-carson-wentz

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12 hours ago, shasta519 said:


But Luck’s career stats are bogged down by his rookie season (which passer rating hated) and a season in which he actually was hurt. 
 

Luck’s performance from age 27 (his season before he would play with Reich) was much better than Wentz’s age 28 season (his season before he will play here). Luck was ascending...Wentz fell fast.


And Luck was on a pretty poor Colts roster with a bad OL in 2016. Wentz played awful in a not too dissimilar situation.

 

Good, let alone great, QBs don’t just bomb their early prime seasons like Wentz did. 
 

A bounce back season (from where Wentz was last year) into a legit top 10 QB is unprecedented. Not saying it can’t happen, but the smart money would be against it. 

I've looked pretty deep at the roster in Philly over his tenure there. Aside from having a good OL until 2020, Philly's roster just wasn't that great. WRs were pretty meh IMO. Some decent names, but they just weren't consistent and didn't produce like other WRs in the league. Ertz led them in yardage just about every year. Sure he's great, but when a TE is your leader every year, that says something... They never really had a dominant running game or RB. Decent rushing totals a few years, but the numbers were better than reality. Not sure they had a 1000 yard or go-to RB in all the years Wentz was there. 2017 was a weird year, and I think because of that, folks think Philly's roster was better than it really was. 

 

In short, we all know Luck was the better prospect. But Luck had Reggie and TY day one. And he also came into a well established passing O. RB wise, Indy wasn't really a running team but they did try to add TR and later FG. Their identity was never going to be running though. One could say giving Luck Philly's OL would have put him over the top. One could also say giving Wentz Reggie and TY would have done the same. 

 

The real conversation will come after the season. IMO, I'd put my money on Wentz having close to a 2017 or 2019 season. For the first time, he'll be asked to do less (like Rivers was). Our OL should be top 10. If Campbell stays healthy, our WR unit will be top 10. Our RB room will be top 5. Our O should look conservative early, but capable. Later in the year, not so conservative.

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23 hours ago, EastStreet said:

I've looked pretty deep at the roster in Philly over his tenure there. Aside from having a good OL until 2020, Philly's roster just wasn't that great. WRs were pretty meh IMO. Some decent names, but they just weren't consistent and didn't produce like other WRs in the league. Ertz led them in yardage just about every year. Sure he's great, but when a TE is your leader every year, that says something... They never really had a dominant running game or RB. Decent rushing totals a few years, but the numbers were better than reality. Not sure they had a 1000 yard or go-to RB in all the years Wentz was there. 2017 was a weird year, and I think because of that, folks think Philly's roster was better than it really was. 

 

In short, we all know Luck was the better prospect. But Luck had Reggie and TY day one. And he also came into a well established passing O. RB wise, Indy wasn't really a running team but they did try to add TR and later FG. Their identity was never going to be running though. One could say giving Luck Philly's OL would have put him over the top. One could also say giving Wentz Reggie and TY would have done the same. 

 

The real conversation will come after the season. IMO, I'd put my money on Wentz having close to a 2017 or 2019 season. For the first time, he'll be asked to do less (like Rivers was). Our OL should be top 10. If Campbell stays healthy, our WR unit will be top 10. Our RB room will be top 5. Our O should look conservative early, but capable. Later in the year, not so conservative.

I do not see out WRs as top ten. I will be happy if they are top 20.

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48 minutes ago, Thebrashandthebold said:

I do not see out WRs as top ten. I will be happy if they are top 20.

You may not see our WRs as top 10, but our passing O was 11th last year with a limited Rivers who was without Campbell most of the year, and a rook Pittman who was also out some. In fact, we were only a few yards/game off being top 10. If you believe Wentz will be as good as a limited Rivers, then a more mature Pittman and a healthy Campbell should easily add 10 more yards per game, putting us up near 6th/7th in passing O.

 

That of course assumes Wentz rebounds, and Campbell stays healthy. Big ifs, but I'm more and more confident on Wentz.  Regardless though, Reich's scheme IMO will keep us near top 10 by itself with simple dink/dunk and a good amount of passing to RBs.

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14 hours ago, EastStreet said:

You may not see our WRs as top 10, but our passing O was 11th last year with a limited Rivers who was without Campbell most of the year, and a rook Pittman who was also out some. In fact, we were only a few yards/game off being top 10. If you believe Wentz will be as good as a limited Rivers, then a more mature Pittman and a healthy Campbell should easily add 10 more yards per game, putting us up near 6th/7th in passing O.

 

That of course assumes Wentz rebounds, and Campbell stays healthy. Big ifs, but I'm more and more confident on Wentz.  Regardless though, Reich's scheme IMO will keep us near top 10 by itself with simple dink/dunk and a good amount of passing to RBs.

If Wentz puts up a season as good as Rivers did, I will be as pleased as everyone else. I just highly doubt that will happen and I don't have the confidence in the receivers that you do. I think they leave a lot to be desired and I have my doubts about them staying healthy. 

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On 5/11/2021 at 5:54 PM, Thebrashandthebold said:

I hope you are right but if I were betting it would be against you. I just can't see that great of a turnaround. As someone said earlier it has never happened before. 

Steve Young? 

 

2–14 records in two seasons with the Bucs and 3–16 with him as a starter. Young threw for 11 touchdowns with 21 interceptions and completing fewer than 55%. Then traded to the 49ers for a 2nd and a 4th and we all know how he did with the 49ers.

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Carson spent the entire 2020 season running for his life behind a sad Philly O-line. This reminds me of the year Phillip Rivers spent before signing with the Colts. If Indy's offense rejuvenated Rivers, I find it likely it will have an even better effect on Wentz. Reich and Ballard believe it as do I. I am really looking forward to the upcoming season! Go Colts!

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On 5/14/2021 at 8:40 PM, EastStreet said:

You may not see our WRs as top 10, but our passing O was 11th last year with a limited Rivers who was without Campbell most of the year, and a rook Pittman who was also out some. In fact, we were only a few yards/game off being top 10. If you believe Wentz will be as good as a limited Rivers, then a more mature Pittman and a healthy Campbell should easily add 10 more yards per game, putting us up near 6th/7th in passing O.

 

That of course assumes Wentz rebounds, and Campbell stays healthy. Big ifs, but I'm more and more confident on Wentz.  Regardless though, Reich's scheme IMO will keep us near top 10 by itself with simple dink/dunk and a good amount of passing to RBs.

I agree with almost everything you said. I do, however, think that the dink/dunk may not be necessary after a few games. Wentz's mobility will eventually allow for time to pass to drastically increase over that of Rivers. This will allow for many deep balls and long TD passes. If Campbell can stay healthy, the deep receiving corps will be better than a lot of people think. A fast new tight end also doesn't hurt. Coach him up to catch balls in the seems like Dallas Clark and the Colts will be going somewhere.

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