After a almost a week to ponder the draft: Thoughts, Grades, and Poll

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

5 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

I think you'll be disappointed if you expect Reich to run much 50/50 stuff.

Jeffrey was huge in 2017 and caught a ton of those.

[EastStreet]

1 minute ago, Nickster said:

I don't think of this type of play as a called play necessarily, for instance the end zone fade was always a bad play unless you had Megatron.   What I am talking about is the type of player you are comfortable taking a chance and trying get a play made.  All contending teams have this type of guy IMO.  

I mean, that's what a 50/50 play/guy is. Most teams/coaches are less risk averse than Reich. Arians and Reid for instance have always used 50/50 plays. 

 

I do agree we've lacked a true X for quite a while. Perhaps Reich gets less risk averse as he gets more comfortable with Pittman and TE options. Or perhaps Wentz just won't care and will give it a heave and trust. But overall, Reich has talked a lot of not playing hero ball, and being more of a controlled, possession type passing attack. 

 

We'll see. 

[Nickster]

3 minutes ago, Wentzszn said:

Jeffrey was huge in 2017 and caught a ton of those.

That's the type of guy I'm talking about that we seem to lack.  Or at least we don't use them like that if MAC and Pitt can do it effectively at this level.

 

 

[EastStreet]

3 minutes ago, Wentzszn said:

Jeffrey was huge in 2017 and caught a ton of those.

But that wasn't Reich calling plays.

[Nickster]

1 minute ago, EastStreet said:

I mean, that's what a 50/50 play/guy is. Most teams/coaches are less risk averse than Reich. Arians and Reid for instance have always used 50/50 plays. 

 

I do agree we've lacked a true X for quite a while. Perhaps Reich gets less risk averse as he gets more comfortable with Pittman and TE options. Or perhaps Wentz just won't care and will give it a heave and trust. But overall, Reich has talked a lot of not playing hero ball, and being more of a controlled, possession type passing attack. 

 

We'll see. 

 

I agree it would be nice for this guy to be an X, but it can also be  TE IMO.  Dude just said that Reich used Jeffrey like this.  

 

I just don't think we have this type of player.  Though MAC played basketball, I don't think this necessarily translates into high pointing on the football field because I've never seen him do it.

 

And Rivers through up all kinds of 50/50 balls in his time with SD with a basketball player and a couple pretty damn good WR.  I really hate the term 50/50 ball because I'm not really talking about gambling because if you have a QB that can put a jump ball safely high enough so that the defender is going to have to foul to make a play and can't really get to the ball through the high pointer and you have  a reciever who knows how to use his body to shield and time a jump, then it's not any more "risky" than most other throws.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

9 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

But that wasn't Reich calling plays.

I know but he was still a integral part of the offensive plays. Just because he didn’t call them doesn’t mean he wasn’t in the room all week designing plays

[Nickster]

East I'm looking through several articles and many mention that Pitt's high pointing ability is one of the reasons they were so high on him.  Like I said, I ain't saying the kid can't do it.  It seems like he should be able to.  I just haven't seen it in the league yet.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

13 minutes ago, Nickster said:

That's the type of guy I'm talking about that we seem to lack.  Or at least we don't use them like that if MAC and Pitt can do it effectively at this level.

 

 

Pittman can be that guy. We have also seen Cox can do those things too. We will see if Patmon can develop some of that and if he makes the roster. Pittman was still learning last season and let’s be honest Reich didn’t want rivers throwing up balls like that. The goal was to cut down on his INT.  I think we will see Wentz take more chances then they allowed rivers last season.

[EastStreet]

4 minutes ago, Nickster said:

 

I agree it would be nice for this guy to be an X, but it can also be  TE IMO.  Dude just said that Reich used Jeffrey like this. 

Doesn't matter, X, TE, big slot, tall Z. 

 

Reich wasn't calling plays in 2017

4 minutes ago, Nickster said:

 

I just don't think we have this type of player.  Though MAC played basketball, I don't think this necessarily translates into high pointing on the football field because I've never seen him do it.

 

It's not like he had a lot of 50/50 high point opportunities.

But here's one...

 

All in all, he ran a lot of back shoulder and sit down routes. Not a lot of post up stuff. 

 

4 minutes ago, Nickster said:

And Rivers through up all kinds of 50/50 balls in his time with SD with a basketball player and a couple pretty damn good WR.  I really hate the term 50/50 ball because I'm not really talking about gambling because if you have a QB that can put a jump ball safely high enough so that the defender is going to have to foul to make a play and can't really get to the ball through the high pointer and you have  a reciever who knows how to use his body to shield and time a jump, then it's not any more "risky" than most other throws.

50/50 is a gamble. Some pass catchers are better at it, some QBs better at it, but it's still more of a gamble than a simple timing route.

[EastStreet]

5 minutes ago, Nickster said:

East I'm looking through several articles and many mention that Pitt's high pointing ability is one of the reasons they were so high on him.  Like I said, I ain't saying the kid can't do it.  It seems like he should be able to.  I just haven't seen it in the league yet.

I saw it plenty at USC. Like I said, it's more of a willingness by Frank calling plays.

[richard pallo]

I have to say I think they feel very good about their 1st four picks.  But once they took the QB that signaled to me the rest of the draft was not so good. No real players with unique qualities.  That’s why we gave so many UDFA nice signing bonuses.  I could see a couple of those players making the roster.   JMO.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Wentz also never had a INT problem other then last season. So he might be ok taking a few more chances with him. But it’s also right that Wentz can’t play hero ball and needs to play within the offense.

[Nickster]

3 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Doesn't matter, X, TE, big slot, tall Z. 

 

Reich wasn't calling plays in 2017

 

It's not like he had a lot of 50/50 high point opportunities.

But here's one...

 

All in all, he ran a lot of back shoulder and sit down routes. Not a lot of post up stuff. 

 

50/50 is a gamble. Some pass catchers are better at it, some QBs better at it, but it's still more of a gamble than a simple timing route.

Hell of a catch and the exact type of play on that one down by the goal line.  Just watching this tape of this awesome game though, he's a body catcher primarily.  That's what caused the INT on the other goal line play.  I'm guessing he doesn't do well enough in practice on bringing those type of catches in that involve the hands.  

 

If not, wth are we doing?  WTH aren't there 30 other teams beating our door down?  

[Nickster]

11 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

I saw it plenty at USC. Like I said, it's more of a willingness by Frank calling plays.

Looked at more tape.  If MAC used his hands more he'd be pro bowl type of player.  That is the problem with him I'll be you dollars to donuts.  That's why you don't see him featured more.

[EastStreet]

Just now, Nickster said:

Hell of a catch and the exact type of play on that one down by the goal line.  Just watching this tape of this awesome game though, he's a body catcher primarily.  That's what caused the INT on the other goal line play.  I'm guessing he doesn't do well enough in practice on bringing those type of catches in that involve the hands.  

 

If not, wth are we doing?  WTH aren't there 30 other teams beating our door down?  

He had the highest catch % of any WR or TE on the team and only had that one drop while leading all TEs in yardage. 

I agree in that small set of highlights, he looks like a body catcher. And he is to an extent he is on those types of throws. Keep in mind most of those were to his gut and backshoulder type plays. There are a lot of others highlights when he gets throws away from his body. 

 

At the end of the day, with his elite catch rate and low drop rate, not concerned. And please, give him different routes. More sail routes, more throws out in front of him, and more high point passes. Less sit down routes and passes to his hip/stomach.

 

Watch Burton's routes and highlights and then MACs. Burton had more targets (47 vs 39) yet caught less (MAC had a 20% higher catch rate). IMO, if they give MAC more sail routes (see the 3 in the MN game), and more post up 50/50 type or fades, he'll be a monster. He blocks great, gets separation, and had good YAC for a TE.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Also can’t stress enough with covid and the lack of offseason rivers had with his guys. You have to build trust with those 50/50 balls. It may take a little time for Wentz to trust Pittman and Cox on those. 

[EastStreet]

22 minutes ago, Nickster said:

Looked at more tape.  If MAC used his hands more he'd be pro bowl type of player.  That is the problem with him I'll be you dollars to donuts.  That's why you don't see him featured more.

So what is the problem lol. He leads the team in pass catching % (WRs and TEs). You think he's dropping in lot in practice, but catching a team high rate in games? Just give him different routes with more throws to his shoulder head region. Ebron had a huge body catch problem, and the drop problem to go with it. MAC had a great catch % and 1 drop all year while leading all TEs.

4 minutes ago, Wentzszn said:

Also can’t stress enough with covid and the lack of offseason rivers had with his guys. You have to build trust with those 50/50 balls. It may take a little time for Wentz to trust Pittman and Cox on those. 

Glad he and Pittman were working out. Hope MAC does too. 

[Nickster]

20 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

He had the highest catch % of any WR or TE on the team and only had that one drop while leading all TEs in yardage. 

I agree in that small set of highlights, he looks like a body catcher. And he is to an extent he is on those types of throws. Keep in mind most of those were to his gut and backshoulder type plays. There are a lot of others highlights when he gets throws away from his body. 

 

At the end of the day, with his elite catch rate and low drop rate, not concerned. And please, give him different routes. More sail routes, more throws out in front of him, and more high point passes. Less sit down routes and passes to his hip/stomach.

 

Watch Burton's routes and highlights and then MACs. Burton had more targets (47 vs 39) yet caught less (MAC had a 20% higher catch rate). IMO, if they give MAC more sail routes (see the 3 in the MN game), and more post up 50/50 type or fades, he'll be a monster. He blocks great, gets separation, and had good YAC for a TE.

 

I think we are going to have an opportunity to see what he can do.  I don't think the rookie is going to come in guns a blazin' and Doyle is certainly limited and diminishing as a catcher of the football.

[EastStreet]

1 minute ago, Nickster said:

 

I think we are going to have an opportunity to see what he can do.  I don't think the rookie is going to come in guns a blazin' and Doyle is certainly limited and diminishing as a catcher of the football.

I also doubt the new rook TE is a huge factor, especially early. He'll be more of a factor IMO if Reich opens up things deeper as the year progresses.

 

Overall, I don't think Doyle is really diminishing. I think there's a lot of contributing factors. 

1. he was used a lot in run blocking last year. 
2. while he had the least TE targets, he had zero drops, good separation, and the highest passer rating when targeted than any WR, TE, or RB on the team.
3. The emergence of a true X (Pittman) stole "big" and TE targets
4. The emergence of MAC stole targets
5. Reich seemed to force things too much to Burton. Burton had the most TE targets, but worst TE catch %, and lowest TE yards.
6. Pascal running a lot from slot (big-slot) likely took TE type targets/routes.
7. IMO, just too much TE rotation. With a big like Pittman, we don't really need a lot of snaps from a 3rd TE.

[Nickster]

5 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

So what is the problem lol. He leads the team in pass catching % (WRs and TEs). You think he's dropping in lot in practice, but catching a team high rate in games? Just give him different routes with more throws to his shoulder head region. Ebron had a huge body catch problem, and the drop problem to go with it. MAC had a great catch % and 1 drop all year while leading all TEs.

Glad he and Pittman were working out. Hope MAC does too. 

 

Well you can also see from the tape that he is very limited as a route runner.  He doesn't square off his patterns very well.  Ebron was a WR in a TE body and got open with freakish athleticism for his size.  MAC can match EEs straight speed, but isn't in the same league with his agility.  I know you like to use yds of separation stats, but these tell very little without context, down and distance, type of route, which defenders cover you, etc. And Ebron was only really good the one year.  He was decent in others, but usually around MACs production last year.

 

Body Catching in traffic is risky, and the cause of the INT on that one  play.  The catch percentage wouldn't be near the level it was if he were thrown to in traffic more often.  I am guessing there is a lack of confidence in MAC here.

 

I'm just telling you that from a coaching perspective, that body catching over the middle does not engender confidence in a QB or play caller.

 

My guess is, yes, he has a drop problem in practice when he tries to catch with his hands, making his likely catch radius miniscule despite his ridiculous size.

[Nickster]

12 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

I also doubt the new rook TE is a huge factor, especially early. He'll be more of a factor IMO if Reich opens up things deeper as the year progresses.

 

Overall, I don't think Doyle is really diminishing. I think there's a lot of contributing factors. 

1. he was used a lot in run blocking last year. 
2. while he had the least TE targets, he had zero drops, good separation, and the highest passer rating when targeted than any WR, TE, or RB on the team.
3. The emergence of a true X (Pittman) stole "big" and TE targets
4. The emergence of MAC stole targets
5. Reich seemed to force things too much to Burton. Burton had the most TE targets, but worst TE catch %, and lowest TE yards.
6. Pascal running a lot from slot (big-slot) likely took TE type targets/routes.
7. IMO, just too much TE rotation. With a big like Pittman, we don't really need a lot of snaps from a 3rd TE.

 

Well it would be surprising if a 31 year old player with an injury history like Doyle wasn't diminishing.  

 

Burton is able to run routes that Doyle and MAC can't, much better route runner.  Like you wouldn't even try certain plays to Doyle or MAC like you would Burton.  There were a lot of difficult type of throws to TB. 

Out of context catch percentage doesn't really reveal too much.  

 

For instance, do you think JT is a better receiver than Hines?  No, no one sentient does.  But he has a higher catch percentage because the routes he runs are not ones that require much skill as a route runner or a pass catcher.   

[EastStreet]

2 minutes ago, Nickster said:

 

Well you can also see from the tape that he is very limited as a route runner.  He doesn't square off his patterns very well.  Ebron was a WR in a TE body and got open with freakish athleticism for his size.  MAC can match EEs straight speed, but isn't in the same league with his agility.  I know you like to use yds of separation stats, but these tell very little without context, down and distance, type of route, which defenders cover you, etc. And Ebron was only really good the one year.  He was decent in others, but usually around MACs production last year.

Dude, watch his whole 21 highlight tape. He runs just about every route, including some advanced routes like sails. It's Reich's choice and frequency of routes/calls. Again, he had very high grades in every facet. It's like you're trying to find something, or making stuff up. 

 

Ebron was faster 4.6 than MAC 4.75. So simple question? Did you see MAC have good separation? Yes, you did. If you have an elite catch rate, it's not a thing.....

 

To add, Ebron and MAC are different types of TEs. MAC is 6-6 and is huge, but still runs very well for that size.  Ebron stunk at blocking, had a huge drop problem. MAC is great at blocking and has a low drop %.  Compare their stats from last year. MAC kills him in terms of quality and %s. Much higher catch %, much lower drop %, much higher AVG. Much better YAC/R. Much better passer rating when targeted.

 

Ebron was great that year because Indy totally changed the way he was used. They upped his RZ targets big time, put him in different routes, and Luck thru outside his body. 

2 minutes ago, Nickster said:

 

Body Catching in traffic is risky, and the cause of the INT on that one  play.  The catch percentage wouldn't be near the level it was if he were thrown to in traffic more often.  I am guessing there is a lack of confidence in MAC here.

You're making stuff up. He had more targets than Doyle. Was there a lack of confidence in Doyle lol. He had less targets than Burton. Did they have most confidence in Burton, who had the worst quality stats? You're not making a lot of sense. 

2 minutes ago, Nickster said:

 

I'm just telling you that from a coaching perspective, that body catching over the middle does not engender confidence in a QB or play caller.

 

My guess is, yes, he has a drop problem in practice when he tries to catch with his hands, making his likely catch radius miniscule despite his ridiculous size.

Dude, your logic is horrible. Huge drop problem in practices, best catch rate on the team in games....... makes perfect sense lol

Throwing to his gut has zero to do with his radius. Throw it higher or out in front for goodness sake. 

[EastStreet]

15 minutes ago, Nickster said:

 

Well it would be surprising if a 31 year old player with an injury history like Doyle wasn't diminishing.  

 

Burton is able to run routes that Doyle and MAC can't, much better route runner.  Like you wouldn't even try certain plays to Doyle or MAC like you would Burton.  There were a lot of difficult type of throws to TB. 

Out of context catch percentage doesn't really reveal too much.  

 

For instance, do you think JT is a better receiver than Hines?  No, no one sentient does.  But he has a higher catch percentage because the routes he runs are not ones that require much skill as a route runner or a pass catcher.   

 

Holy cow you're making stuff up... 

 

Burton was running simple slot routes most of the time. MAC and Doyle were running difficult timing (think back shoulder and come backs on the outside and downfield) and stride routes (think sail). If you're going to make silly claims, put some effort and provide something like nextgen pass charts.

 

So tell me Nick, what type of routes did Hines run? What type did Taylor run?

 

[Nickster]

1 hour ago, EastStreet said:

Dude, watch his whole 21 highlight tape. He runs just about every route, including some advanced routes like sails. It's Reich's choice and frequency of routes/calls. Again, he had very high grades in every facet. It's like you're trying to find something, or making stuff up. 

 

Ebron was faster 4.6 than MAC 4.75. So simple question? Did you see MAC have good separation? Yes, you did. If you have an elite catch rate, it's not a thing.....

 

To add, Ebron and MAC are different types of TEs. MAC is 6-6 and is huge, but still runs very well for that size.  Ebron stunk at blocking, had a huge drop problem. MAC is great at blocking and has a low drop %.  Compare their stats from last year. MAC kills him in terms of quality and %s. Much higher catch %, much lower drop %, much higher AVG. Much better YAC/R. Much better passer rating when targeted.

 

Ebron was great that year because Indy totally changed the way he was used. They upped his RZ targets big time, put him in different routes, and Luck thru outside his body. 

You're making stuff up. He had more targets than Doyle. Was there a lack of confidence in Doyle lol. He had less targets than Burton. Did they have most confidence in Burton, who had the worst quality stats? You're not making a lot of sense. 

Dude, your logic is horrible. Huge drop problem in practices, best catch rate on the team in games....... makes perfect sense lol

Throwing to his gut has zero to do with his radius. Throw it higher or out in front for goodness sake. 

Don't be gettin all Easy Street on me now man.  Just talking ball here.  Maybe this convo has run it's course, but I am perfectly willing to engage, I just don't want you to meltdown.  

 

What am I making up?   I said I hope you are right to start with.  

 

I said MAC and EBRON were different.  Ebron is more like this dude we picked up only bigger.  Ebron was huge and extremely fast when drafted.  I don't even like Ebron.

 

I am not claiming to be a great coach, but I was part of 2 really good HS football staffs, (didn't win state championship but my team I was part of in Arizona actually lost 2 years in a row in the semis to a Boys School with great talent from all over the country which had all kinds of great volunteer coaches for the troubled youth including Frank Cush;  I still think this is a travesty to this day BTW and it happened in the 94-95 seasons) and have watched months of tape and can tell you that to just about anyone with that kind of experience, when you watch that HIGHLIGHT REAL BTW   it's clear that 1.  MAC is not a hands catcher  and   2.  He struggles squaring off his short to intermediate routes

 

So I looked up his measurables and sure enough he's bottom 3rd in agilities and top 3rd in speed and burst

And dude a sail route is just one in which you key a defender and decide which of two zone areas to try to fill.

This isn't very complex at all.  We had HS kids do it all the time.  Flat guy does that you do this, Flat guy does this you do that.  And you just drill that % over and over.  Not too hard.  

 

But I am not talking about MACs reading ability, I am talking about physical traits:    start/stop  rounding/squaring   changing direction.      I just looked up MACs agilities thinking maybe his size makes him look less quick than he is, and predictably he's well above average in speed, burst, 40 which is clearly visible on the field (especially when you see him live), and he measures well below average in agilities  (35th percentile) which will usually translate into a guy that has trouble getting open in the middle of the field on short and intermediate routes.

 

 

[C_Lew]

Dayo is expected to be cleared in August and set to return to action in September/October. If that holds true, I believe he could be a heavy contributor by November/December/January. So, I’m not so sure why many are writing him off for this season. Perhaps I’m just an optimist, though. 

[Nickster]

56 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

Holy cow you're making stuff up... 

 

Burton was running simple slot routes most of the time. MAC and Doyle were running difficult timing (think back shoulder and come backs on the outside and downfield) and stride routes (think sail). If you're going to make silly claims, put some effort and provide something like nextgen pass charts.

 

So tell me Nick, what type of routes did Hines run? What type did Taylor run?

 

 

Don't know how to use Next Gen.  Does it have a stat on routes run behind the LOS compared to routes run past the LOS?  I would suspect you will see a difference if there is.  If not, hey I was wrong, no big deal.

 

 

[compuls1v3]

14 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Scratching my head over seeing some As given for days 2 and 3. 

I can see an argument for a B on Day 2, but not an A. 

An A for day 3 is mind bending to me.

 

 

To each our own I guess.  Only time will tell, to be honest.

[Myles]

I feel about the same on this draft as I did during and right after it.  

Love the first 2 picks.

Didn't care for the TE pick.

On the fence on the QB pick.

Like the rest.

[EastStreet]

13 minutes ago, Nickster said:

Don't be gettin all Easy Street on me now man.  Just talking ball here.  Maybe this convo has run it's course, but I am perfectly willing to engage, I just don't want you to meltdown.  

 

What am I making up?   I said I hope you are right to start with.  

 

I said MAC and EBRON were different.  Ebron is more like this dude we picked up only bigger.  Ebron was huge and extremely fast when drafted.  I don't even like Ebron.

 

I am not claiming to be a great coach, but I was part of 2 really good HS football staffs, (didn't win state championship but my team I was part of in Arizona actually lost 2 years in a row in the semis to a Boys School with great talent from all over the country which had all kinds of great volunteer coaches for the troubled youth including Frank Cush;  I still think this is a travesty to this day BTW and it happened in the 94-95 seasons) and have watched months of tape and can tell you that to just about anyone with that kind of experience, when you watch that HIGHLIGHT REAL BTW   it's clear that 1.  MAC is a hands catcher  and   2.  He struggles squaring off his short to intermediate routes

 

So I looked up his measurables and sure enough he's bottom 3rd in agilities and top 3rd in speed and burst

And dude a sail route is just one in which you key a defender and decide which of two zone areas to try to fill.

This isn't very complex at all.  We had HS kids do it all the time.  Flat guy does that you do this, Flat guy does this you do that.  And you just drill that % over and over.  Not too hard.  

 

But I am not talking about MACs reading ability, I am talking about physical traits:    start/stop  rounding/squaring   changing direction.      I just looked up MACs agilities thinking maybe his size makes him look less quick than he is, and predictably he's well above average in speed, burst, 40 which is clearly visible on the field (especially when you see him live), and he measures well below average in agilities  (35th percentile) which will usually translate into a guy that has trouble getting open in the middle of the field on short and intermediate routes.

 

 

LOL, not melting down, just pushing back meandering silly jibberjam... 

 

If you are going to ignore a preponderance of basic statistical, at least provide sound alternative stats that drive a specific and cohesive narrative. All this fuzzy might be could be, look this way, look that way, stuff is tiresome lol.

2 minutes ago, Nickster said:

 

Don't know how to use Next Gen.  Does it have a stat on routes run behind the LOS compared to routes run past the LOS?  I would suspect you will see a difference if there is.  If not, hey I was wrong, no big deal.

 

 

shows all routes run, including negative routes behind the LOS. 

 

I'll give you a hint, Hines's routes are simple, and very few if any with a catchpoint beyond 5 yards. 

Mostly basic screens and flats, maybe an occasional slant.

Not saying Taylor's are advanced either, but they are running basically the same stuff, and it's far from advanced stuff.

Your whole "Hines is running harder routes" is utter nonsense.

[EastStreet]

10 minutes ago, compuls1v3 said:

To each our own I guess.  Only time will tell, to be honest.

Yup. Looks like the poll averages are

A

B-

C+

You're right, only time will tell.

[Nickster]

3 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

LOL, not melting down, just pushing back meandering silly jibberjam... 

 

If you are going to ignore a preponderance of basic statistical, at least provide sound alternative stats that drive a specific and cohesive narrative. All this fuzzy might be could be, look this way, look that way, stuff is tiresome lol.

shows all routes run, including negative routes behind the LOS. 

 

I'll give you a hint, Hines's routes are simple, and very few if any with a catchpoint beyond 5 yards. 

Mostly basic screens and flats, maybe an occasional slant.

Not saying Taylor's are advanced either, but they are running basically the same stuff, and it's far from advanced stuff.

Your whole "Hines is running harder routes" is utter nonsense.

I stand corrected.  

[Nickster]

3 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

LOL, not melting down, just pushing back meandering silly jibberjam... 

 

If you are going to ignore a preponderance of basic statistical, at least provide sound alternative stats that drive a specific and cohesive narrative. All this fuzzy might be could be, look this way, look that way, stuff is tiresome lol.

shows all routes run, including negative routes behind the LOS. 

 

I'll give you a hint, Hines's routes are simple, and very few if any with a catchpoint beyond 5 yards. 

Mostly basic screens and flats, maybe an occasional slant.

Not saying Taylor's are advanced either, but they are running basically the same stuff, and it's far from advanced stuff.

Your whole "Hines is running harder routes" is utter nonsense.

I thought I saw a lot of Hines running right at LBs and breaking down on in or outs, but I must be wrong.  You know shaking the LB in tight spaces.  That would usually be about a 5 yd. route and is the type of agility that makes pass catching RBs great.  

[compuls1v3]

4 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Yup. Looks like the poll averages are

A

B-

C+

You're right, only time will tell.

If we get 3-4 contributing players (and that's a stretch for me) I'd say we had a really good draft.  However, with the inclusion of Wentz, I would say it is quite possible.

[EastStreet]

5 minutes ago, Nickster said:

I thought I saw a lot of Hines running right at LBs and breaking down on in or outs, but I must be wrong.  You know shaking the LB in tight spaces.  That would usually be about a 5 yd. route and is the type of agility that makes pass catching RBs great.  

Games are different, and you'll see a little variance sometimes depending on the opponent.

Not sure what you mean when you say running at the LBs... But that happens in every basic slant. 

 

Here's a game for Taylor

Only 3 catches. One flat, one slant, and one that looks like a short go or corner. Must have seen a matchup that they liked on that one as he looks to have dusted his coverage (or it was blown).

 

 

 

Here's the last game of the regular season for Hines when he had a good amount of catches (6).

 

Of the the 6

4 were quick passes caught behind the LOS (screens or 0 route)

1 was a slant (2 route) caught at the 5 yl

1 was a quick out / flat (1 route) caught at the 3 yl

 

All very basic.

 

[EastStreet]

33 minutes ago, compuls1v3 said:

If we get 3-4 contributing players (and that's a stretch for me) I'd say we had a really good draft.  However, with the inclusion of Wentz, I would say it is quite possible.

My expectations

1R immediate starter

2R starter by end of year, immediate rotational

3R immediate depth or rotation

4th depth and key STs

5th STs at min

6th and 7th - shots in the dark, bonus if they stick. Mostly PS guys.

 

This year our 2nd round guy will likely not meet expectation due to injury. We don't have a 3rd. 4th and 5th will likely be depth contributors.  I'm counting Wentz more in the 2022 draft.

 

[Nickster]

17 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Games are different, and you'll see a little variance sometimes depending on the opponent.

Not sure what you mean when you say running at the LBs... But that happens in every basic slant. 

 

Here's a game for Taylor

Only 3 catches. One flat, one slant, and one that looks like a short go or corner. Must have seen a matchup that they liked on that one as he looks to have dusted his coverage (or it was blown).

 

 

 

Here's the last game of the regular season for Hines when he had a good amount of catches (6).

 

Of the the 6

4 were quick passes caught behind the LOS (screens or 0 route)

1 was a slant (2 route) caught at the 5 yl

1 was a quick out / flat (1 route) caught at the 3 yl

 

All very basic.

 

 

I think we are having definition problems.  I am not talking about complexity of routes.  I am not even sure what that means.  At the most complex level a reciever might have 3 choices but usually only two. It's not the complexity per se that makes NFL route running difficult.  It's the extremely short amount of time the route runner has to make the decision. 

 

So a slant or a square in or out or what ever you want to call them are simple, but in order to run them and get open, especially in short zones, it takes agility and/or route running.

 

So I think we are talking about different things. 

 

When it comes to before the LOS or after the LOS, passes behind the LOS are usually not defended until after the ball is caught and the reciever is "open" every time, when you go even a couple of yds past the LOS on most downs, there is going to be a defender who is going to try to "guard" you.  It seems like, again, don't know for sure, that HINES runs a lot more of these routes past the LOS than JT does.   (I'm actually, pretty sure about this.)

 

Also Hines is the 3rd down back, so on most if not all of his routes, there is going to be an awareness by the D that he might catch a pass, whereas for JT, most of his routes are a change of pace and the defense is much more concerned with his running ability.

 

I mean if you think that JT and Hines are the same reciever type or whatever fine, but you'd probably be the only one.  

 

 

 

[Nickster]

2 hours ago, EastStreet said:

So what is the problem lol. He leads the team in pass catching % (WRs and TEs). You think he's dropping in lot in practice, but catching a team high rate in games? Just give him different routes with more throws to his shoulder head region. Ebron had a huge body catch problem, and the drop problem to go with it. MAC had a great catch % and 1 drop all year while leading all TEs.

Glad he and Pittman were working out. Hope MAC does too. 

Then why is he so underutilized and why aren't other teams trying to acquire the dude?  

[EastStreet]

2 minutes ago, Nickster said:

 

I think we are having definition problems.  I am not talking about complexity of routes.  I am not even sure what that means.  At the most complex level a reciever might have 3 choices but usually only two.  

 

So a slant or a square in or out or what ever you want to call them are simple, but in order to run them and get open, especially in short zones, it takes agility and/or route running.

 

So I think we are talking about different things. 

 

When it comes to before the LOS or after the LOS, passes behind the LOS are usually not defended until after the ball is caught and the reciever is "open" every time, when you go even a couple of yds past the LOS on most downs, there is going to be a defender who is going to try to "guard" you.  It seems like, again, don't know for sure, that HINES runs a lot more of these routes past the LOS than JT does.   (I'm actually, pretty sure about this.)

 

Also Hines is the 3rd down back, so on most if not all of his routes, there is going to be an awareness by the D that he might catch a pass, whereas for JT, most of his routes are a change of pace and the defense is much more concerned with his running ability.

 

I mean if you think that JT and Hines are the same reciever type or whatever fine, but you'd probably be the only one.  

 

 

Good grief. You don't even understand the basic route tree and level of complexity...... 

 

I tried to be patient, and provide clear fact and data... but..

 

[EastStreet]

2 minutes ago, Nickster said:

Then why is he so underutilized and why aren't other teams trying to acquire the dude?  

If you're a jockey riding a race horse, and never open him up and run hard when racing, will people ever know how fast he is? Is that a horse issue, or a jockey issue?

[Nickster]

3 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

Good grief. You don't even understand the basic route tree and level of complexity...... 

 

I tried to be patient, and provide clear fact and data... but..

 

 

I can't tell if we'd like each other or not in real life.  I think maybe.