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Left Tackle(Leno,Fisher,Okung?)/Sam Tevi at LT (MERGE)


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2 minutes ago, dw49 said:

 

 

Do you know if the rule regarding comp picks for players signed after the draft works "both ways ?" Other words if Houston signs for 7-8 million , will the Colts receive a comp pick ? I would think yes ? Also if we spend say 10 mill on Fisher , that would leave probably 6-7 mill i cap money the Colts don't need for 2021. Not that much when you consider Irsay says extensions are coming soon for Leonard and Smith. Yeah .. you can set their salaries for the first extension year very low but that hasn't been the way the Colts have rolled on managing the cap. Rather than spend a lot of money on say a 3 year deal on Fisher , I would rather do a 2 year deal on Leno for hopefully around 14 mill with most of the guarantee this year. Gives you great flexibility going forward. Seems to me signing Fisher , it would need to be a longer deal that would be expensive for it to make sense. If they do that , I would consider not extending Smith as they should find it easier to replace the RT. You have in addition to extending the big 3 , Turay , Hines , Allie-Cox and Rhodes that have expiring contracts. All but Nelson come due at the end of this year. Maybe the cap goes up big next year or maybe Wentz bombs and Eason looks great and I end up full of beans or maybe there is no problem as I'm not a cap expert .

 

After the draft, no new contracts affect the comp formula. So if Houston signs somewhere else, we don't get a comp pick. 

 

About Fisher/cap space, I agree. To bring in either of these two guys is going to cut into their money for this season, including extensions. We'll have to see how they handle it, but something is going to have to be different from their typical contract structure. If I were going to use a bigger signing bonus than normal, I'd use it on one of my own young guys, not an older FA addition.

 

Next year's cap is probably in order. This year's cap is tight. 

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8 hours ago, shasta519 said:


Similar injuries, but different situations. Not saying I am all about Fisher...just that they really aren’t the same thing.

 

With Fisher, they are likely only betting on him to be a short-term solution...and looking to squeeze out what football he has left. Sort of like Peters in PHI (though Peters is a much better player than Fisher in his career).

 

Fisher is an established vet and not dependent upon top-notch athleticism. So they have some type of baseline of performance. They likely won’t get pre-injury performance out of Fisher...but maybe they can live with 80% of Fisher for a bit. 

With Dayo, they are not only banking on a return to health (which is tricky with Achilles injuries), but also a return to the pre-injury athleticism/upside that justified him as a top 60 player (which is a dubious proposition for athletes returning from Achilles injuries). And then if Dayo manages to get that athleticism back, the Colts are banking on his development as well. A lot really has to go right for Dayo. And the opportunity cost of a 2nd round pick (in a draft where you only have one Day 2 pick) is much higher a bit of cap space you use to sign a vet OT.

 

Of course every single situation has its own intricacies but I trust a young person to rebound more than an older vet with mileage. Fisher is ok.  Maybe the perfect stop gap of he can regain form.  Dayo should bounce back nicely and be a beast. I see his floor as an average starter even with injury questions. 

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7 hours ago, Superman said:

 

I don't care about his PFF grade, but I agree that I'd rather pursue Leno than Fisher, primarily due to the injury. I find it hard to believe that Fisher will play at all in 2021.

we may be looking at him for next season

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Best option if healthy - Fisher (will still likely want 2-3 years)

 

Safest option - Leno (likely wants 3 years min)

 

Most expensive option - Leno

 

Cheapest short term option with a level of safety - Okung (PFF predicts a 3 year deal, which I don't see).

 

IMO, if you don't grab one of those guys, or other quality FA, you'll end up starting Tevi. If you start Tevi, before long you're moving Nelson to LT.... Ballard likely doesn't want to give Leno 3-4 years and high dollars. FIsher comes with risk. IDK... 

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7 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

Best option if healthy - Fisher (will still likely want 2-3 years)

 

Safest option - Leno (likely wants 3 years min)

 

Most expensive option - Leno

 

Cheapest short term option with a level of safety - Okung (PFF predicts a 3 year deal, which I don't see).

 

IMO, if you don't grab one of those guys, or other quality FA, you'll end up starting Tevi. If you start Tevi, before long you're moving Nelson to LT.... Ballard likely doesn't want to give Leno 3-4 years and high dollars. FIsher comes with risk. IDK... 

 

I like the breakdown and agree although i caveat with this:

 

I don't think Leno or Fisher was 2-3 year deals unless they get what their market is before being cut.

 

And I do not think CB is going to big against himself to do that.

 

Leno basically made $8M-$9M each year ($8.8, $5.0, $8.1, $8.1) and was slated to make $9.0M this year before cut.

 

If the Colts are going to offer him $8-$9M a year I think he would gladly take a 2-3 year deal. But if the Colts are bargain shopping then I think he and Fisher will both be happy to take 1 year deals and prove their worth and re-enter the market next year when there is a lot more money to go around.

 

Fisher probably won't go for a 2-3 year deal unless he is making $10M+ 

 

I would actually ideally like to see us give one of them a 2-3 year deal where we have cost control on a decent contract for a year or two beyond this one.

 

I think that is a big win if so. More likely scenario has us giving one of them a $6M-$8M deal for a year and then having to either try to extend them if it works out or let them walk if it doesn't. 

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33 minutes ago, TomDiggs said:

 

I like the breakdown and agree although i caveat with this:

 

I don't think Leno or Fisher was 2-3 year deals unless they get what their market is before being cut.

 

And I do not think CB is going to big against himself to do that.

 

Leno basically made $8M-$9M each year ($8.8, $5.0, $8.1, $8.1) and was slated to make $9.0M this year before cut.

 

If the Colts are going to offer him $8-$9M a year I think he would gladly take a 2-3 year deal. But if the Colts are bargain shopping then I think he and Fisher will both be happy to take 1 year deals and prove their worth and re-enter the market next year when there is a lot more money to go around.

Keep in mind Leno was a 7th round pick in 2014 but didn't start full time till 2016. He signed an modest extension in 2017, but then made the Pro Bowl in 2018. Had a bit of a down year in 2019, but rebounded for a good year in 2020. He graded better than AC. IMO, he's the best and healthiest option left of the FA OTs. He hasn't hit 30 yet. Fisher is injured and 30. Okung is 33. Given he's the youngest, healthiest, and rates over 70, he'll be in higher demand, as there are still several teams looking for a LT. If he wanted 9M a year for 2 years, I'd take that in a heartbeat. I just doubt he'll be OK with that. 

 

Keep in mind the Bears pretty much had to cut him as they couldn't afford to keep him. They were negative cap. It's why they drafted Jenkins. And Denver, who is one of the few teams to have more cap space than Indy, is highly interested in Leno.

 

33 minutes ago, TomDiggs said:

 

Fisher probably won't go for a 2-3 year deal unless he is making $10M+ 

Fisher coming off that injury is a big dice roll. That will impact his market value. Healing at 30 years old is tough for some guys, especially big uglies.

33 minutes ago, TomDiggs said:

 

I would actually ideally like to see us give one of them a 2-3 year deal where we have cost control on a decent contract for a year or two beyond this one.

 

I think that is a big win if so. More likely scenario has us giving one of them a $6M-$8M deal for a year and then having to either try to extend them if it works out or let them walk if it doesn't. 

 

I don't see Leno taking less than 3 year / 30M. I don't see Fisher taking a one year deal at all. Worst thing he could do is do a one year after an injury, look meh this year, and he's done. He'll want 2-3 and some guarantees. He'll take less per year, but he'll want some security.  The team will have most leverage with Okung in terms of $ and duration.

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How about none of the options and we roll with Tevi this year.  The Colts have three big name players (Leonard, Smith, and Nelson) that will need to be resigned which doesn't leave us much cap space available next year so don't expect much movement again in free agency in 2022.   After locking down the big three TE MAC and RB Hines are top priorities imo. 

 

Next off-season I would look at the Vikings RT Brian O'Neill and offer him something very similar to what Braden Smith should get 4yr/60m w/30m guaranteed.  O'Neill I expect to get an offer for 4yr/64m (16m APY) with 30m guaranteed.  O'Neill was a very good LT coming out of Pittsburgh and has proven himself in the NFL at RT.  The Vikings had one of the worst OL last season and took Darrisaw as LT in the draft but also appear to be in potential cap troubles next off-season.  

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6 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Keep in mind Leno was a 7th round pick in 2014 but didn't start full time till 2016. He signed an modest extension in 2017, but then made the Pro Bowl in 2018. Had a bit of a down year in 2019, but rebounded for a good year in 2020. He graded better than AC. IMO, he's the best and healthiest option left of the FA OTs. He hasn't hit 30 yet. Fisher is injured and 30. Okung is 33. Given he's the youngest, healthiest, and rates over 70, he'll be in higher demand, as there are still several teams looking for a LT. If he wanted 9M a year for 2 years, I'd take that in a heartbeat. I just doubt he'll be OK with that. 

 

Keep in mind the Bears pretty much had to cut him as they couldn't afford to keep him. They were negative cap. It's why they drafted Jenkins. And Denver, who is one of the few teams to have more cap space than Indy, is highly interested in Leno.

 

Fisher coming off that injury is a big dice roll. That will impact his market value. Healing at 30 years old is tough for some guys, especially big uglies.

 

I don't see Leno taking less than 3 year / 30M. I don't see Fisher taking a one year deal at all. Worst thing he could do is do a one year after an injury, look meh this year, and he's done. He'll want 2-3 and some guarantees. He'll take less per year, but he'll want some security.  The team will have most leverage with Okung in terms of $ and duration.

I genuinely hope you are right on multiple fronts.

 

That said, if Leno signs in Denver he is not going to be a LT there w Garett Bolles making $17M a year as a top-7 paid OT. So Leno would have to play a new position for him (NFL-wise) and Denver would have to make him a top-5 paid RT to get in that $10M range (which they may if they just use the James money and don't pay James after his injury off-site). Now Leno played some RT at Boise (about 1/3 of his starts), but still I would not want to move to RT if I were him unless Denver made it financially worth it. Maybe they will. But so far whispers are Denver is bringing in guys like Dennis Kelly and the other cut Bears Tackle Bobby Massie for visits. I could see them going w one of them before Leno.

 

 

As for Fisher, I think he is much more likely to take a 2-3 year deal for longer term security if the annual money is right. I just do not think it would be right w the Colts. So if it is a cheaper deal based on his injury then I could see him only being willing to commit to it for a year. I agree it is risky for him to sign a 1 year deal and look Meh. But at this point I also do not think there are going to be many (maybe any?) teams out there willing to give him a multi-year deal at perceived market value w him coming off that injury. So he will either have to take a multi year deal below market or take a prove it deal and bet on himself. I hope it is a multi-year below market deal for us, but I am not convinced. I will be happy if so.

 

Leno is definitely the more interesting case being slightly younger and much healthier.

 

I personally am not a big Okung fan as an option and have not really seen us linked to him yet. But if the best ability is availability, he falls a distant third for me with his missing 10 and 9 games the last two seasons. If you twisted my arm and all the contracts were equal I would probably say for 1 year I'd rank them Leno, Fisher, Okung.

 

For 2-3 years I would probably flip it and go Fisher, Leno, Okung just because I have a slight preference for Fisher long-term even if that injury and recovery are a risk. I woulnd't want to take that on for 1 year but I would for multiple years if it is for $10M a year or less.

 

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Fisher can want longer term but I don’t think he will get it coming off the injury. I am ok with 2 years if the  colts can protect themselves if he doesn’t come back strong from that injury. 

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53 minutes ago, TomDiggs said:

I genuinely hope you are right on multiple fronts.

 

That said, if Leno signs in Denver he is not going to be a LT there w Garett Bolles making $17M a year as a top-7 paid OT. So Leno would have to play a new position for him (NFL-wise) and Denver would have to make him a top-5 paid RT to get in that $10M range (which they may if they just use the James money and don't pay James after his injury off-site). Now Leno played some RT at Boise (about 1/3 of his starts), but still I would not want to move to RT if I were him unless Denver made it financially worth it. Maybe they will. But so far whispers are Denver is bringing in guys like Dennis Kelly and the other cut Bears Tackle Bobby Massie for visits. I could see them going w one of them before Leno.

Leno was a 20ish or 30ish rated LT, but would be a much better RT IMO. It would likely extend his career too. And it's exactly what Denver likely wants. 10M won't be top 5 RT pay for long. It's 5th right now, but Smith get more IMO and 10M will be sixth. IMO, it's a better situation for him than Indy. 

53 minutes ago, TomDiggs said:

As for Fisher, I think he is much more likely to take a 2-3 year deal for longer term security if the annual money is right. I just do not think it would be right w the Colts. So if it is a cheaper deal based on his injury then I could see him only being willing to commit to it for a year. I agree it is risky for him to sign a 1 year deal and look Meh. But at this point I also do not think there are going to be many (maybe any?) teams out there willing to give him a multi-year deal at perceived market value w him coming off that injury. So he will either have to take a multi year deal below market or take a prove it deal and bet on himself. I hope it is a multi-year below market deal for us, but I am not convinced. I will be happy if so.

He rated well last year prior to injury. I think 80ish. Pretty sure he'll get at least some 2 year offers if not 3. I'd be happy with 2 on the cheap if his med checks out.

53 minutes ago, TomDiggs said:

 

Leno is definitely the more interesting case being slightly younger and much healthier.

 

I personally am not a big Okung fan as an option and have not really seen us linked to him yet. But if the best ability is availability, he falls a distant third for me with his missing 10 and 9 games the last two seasons. If you twisted my arm and all the contracts were equal I would probably say for 1 year I'd rank them Leno, Fisher, Okung.

Nothing like formal visits are scheduled, but lots of "reports" talking about Indy being a natural landing spot for him. He's a top 3 or 4 available LT, and Indy needs one, so he's been mentioned a lot.

53 minutes ago, TomDiggs said:

 

For 2-3 years I would probably flip it and go Fisher, Leno, Okung just because I have a slight preference for Fisher long-term even if that injury and recovery are a risk. I woulnd't want to take that on for 1 year but I would for multiple years if it is for $10M a year or less.

 

I really don't want any of them longer than 2 years lol. Give me two years for consistency, but I want to draft one next year or 2023. 

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20 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Leno was a 20ish or 30ish rated LT, but would be a much better RT IMO. It would likely extend his career too. And it's exactly what Denver likely wants. 10M won't be top 5 RT pay for long. It's 5th right now, but Smith get more IMO and 10M will be sixth. IMO, it's a better situation for him than Indy. 

He rated well last year prior to injury. I think 80ish. Pretty sure he'll get at least some 2 year offers if not 3. I'd be happy with 2 on the cheap if his med checks out.

Nothing like formal visits are scheduled, but lots of "reports" talking about Indy being a natural landing spot for him. He's a top 3 or 4 available LT, and Indy needs one, so he's been mentioned a lot.

I really don't want any of them longer than 2 years lol. Give me two years for consistency, but I want to draft one next year or 2023. 

 

Hicks is basically saying what I thought and also fear a bit which is that Fisher may not feel incentivized to sign a multi-year deal due to his market likely being depressed

 

Unless things fall perfectly w medical check up and value/years, I could definitely see a pivot to Leno happening after the visit.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, TomDiggs said:

 

Hicks is basically saying what I thought and also fear a bit which is that Fisher may not feel incentivized to sign a multi-year deal due to his market likely being depressed

 

Unless things fall perfectly w medical check up and value/years, I could definitely see a pivot to Leno happening after the visit.

 

 

Yeah I agree with Hicks here. But at his age and where he is at career wise maybe he would just so he doesn’t have to move again next season. This will be interesting to see how it unfolds. Colts need to protect themselves that second year. I wonder when he is coming. Hopefully today or tomorrow.

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19 minutes ago, Wentzszn said:

Yeah I agree with Hicks here. But at his age and where he is at career wise maybe he would just so he doesn’t have to move again next season. This will be interesting to see how it unfolds. Colts need to protect themselves that second year. I wonder when he is coming. Hopefully today or tomorrow.

 

Yes - lots of "ifs" and speculation.

  • If he goes for a one year deal, suits up early, and plays well
  • If he goes for a one year deal, suits up early, and plays mediocre
  • If he goes for a one year deal, suits up late, and has very little to evaluate on the field
  • If he feels like securing a longer term deal is better than waiting to see what happens
  • If the physical looks good or doesn't look good

If it was me I would be more interested in getting a solid deal now - not top tier - with some guarantees than taking the risk.  HIs rehab could slow or he could get injured/reinjured and really be in a bad spot.

 

But I don't think like these guys.  

 

It's not an easy decision for either side.  We will see...

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38 minutes ago, TomDiggs said:

 

Hicks is basically saying what I thought and also fear a bit which is that Fisher may not feel incentivized to sign a multi-year deal due to his market likely being depressed

 

Unless things fall perfectly w medical check up and value/years, I could definitely see a pivot to Leno happening after the visit.

 

 

I'd love a one year deal. I think it's very dangerous for him though. If he has a meh year, his value will tank and career likely over.

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31 minutes ago, Wentzszn said:

Yeah I agree with Hicks here. But at his age and where he is at career wise maybe he would just so he doesn’t have to move again next season. This will be interesting to see how it unfolds. Colts need to protect themselves that second year. I wonder when he is coming. Hopefully today or tomorrow.

I think Leno’s emergence couldn’t have come at a better time for Ballard.  He now has leverage to get a long term deal with Fisher assuming he’s good to go.  I wouldn’t want to deal with such an important position again after one year.  I would secure it now for at least two or three years.  Fisher knows he’s the 1st choice and he knows Leno is waiting in the wings.  Should help Ballard get a long term deal done if that’s what he wants.  Ballard is also great at structuring longer term deals.  He’s not afraid to draft injured players.  It appears he’s willing to sign injured players as well.

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Just now, Colts1324 said:

Has anyone heard/seen whether he is visiting today or tomorrow? Have only seen that he is visiting this week, but no specific day yet

Jason appears said he thinks it is today but he needed to double check.

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4 hours ago, richard pallo said:

I think Leno’s emergence couldn’t have come at a better time for Ballard.  He now has leverage to get a long term deal with Fisher assuming he’s good to go.  

 

Darn, I hate to be 'that guy' and rain on peoples parades.  But there's history and quantifiable numbers about this.

 

"Dr. Parekh performed a study and measure of functional outcome in the evaluation of “skill players” in the NFL, which included defensive tackles, cornerbacks, linebackers, wide receivers, and running backs. The power rating is a measure of a player’s performance using statistics gathered during game play, such as passing and rushing yards for an offensive player and tackles and interceptions for a defensive player. This study showed that 31 acute Achilles tendon ruptures occurred in NFL players between 1997 and 2002. The average age of a player sustaining a rupture was 29, with an average career before injury spanning six years."

 

"Of the 31 players who sustained an Achilles tendon rupture, 21 (64%) returned to play in the NFL at an average of 11 months after injury. In the three seasons following their return, those 21 players saw significant decreases in games played and power ratings compared to the three seasons preceding the injury."

 

"The percentage of players returning to play at the NFL level is consistent with a meta-analysis performed by Bhandari in 2002. The authors reported return to function rates of 63% for patients treated nonoperatively and 71% for those treated operatively. If we assume that all the NFL players were treated operatively, as would be the standard for young athletes, the return to play rate of 64% is slightly lower than the 71% reported in the meta-analysis. This difference could be attributed to the excessive demands placed on the operatively repaired Achilles tendon in NFL players combined with a body size, strength, and explosiveness that would further increase these demands."

 

You will hear people say recovery is 4-6 months.  The issue is here (especially with elite athletes) there's a big difference between being 'cleared for full activity' and being in 'football condition' and play in an NFL game.   And when they do play (and at times, if), it is at a reduced skill level.

 

Quote

I wouldn’t want to deal with such an important position again after one year.  I would secure it now for at least two or three years.  Fisher knows he’s the 1st choice and he knows Leno is waiting in the wings.  Should help Ballard get a long term deal done if that’s what he wants.  Ballard is also great at structuring longer term deals.  He’s not afraid to draft injured players.  It appears he’s willing to sign injured players as well.

 

The Colts Doctor and medical team will also play a big role in any decision by CB / Irsay here, based upon Fisher's full medical evaluation and his progress and prognosis. It's not just about contract negotiations here.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

Darn, I hate to be 'that guy' and rain on peoples parades.  But there's history and quantifiable numbers about this.

 

"Dr. Parekh performed a study and measure of functional outcome in the evaluation of “skill players” in the NFL, which included defensive tackles, cornerbacks, linebackers, wide receivers, and running backs.3 The power rating is a measure of a player’s performance using statistics gathered during game play, such as passing and rushing yards for an offensive player and tackles and interceptions for a defensive player. This study showed that 31 acute Achilles tendon ruptures occurred in NFL players between 1997 and 2002. The average age of a player sustaining a rupture was 29, with an average career before injury spanning six years."

 

"Of the 31 players who sustained an Achilles tendon rupture, 21 (64%) returned to play in the NFL at an average of 11 months after injury. In the three seasons following their return, those 21 players saw significant decreases in games played and power ratings compared to the three seasons preceding the injury."

 

"The percentage of players returning to play at the NFL level is consistent with a meta-analysis performed by Bhandari4 in 2002. The authors reported return to function rates of 63% for patients treated nonoperatively and 71% for those treated operatively. If we assume that all the NFL players were treated operatively, as would be the standard for young athletes, the return to play rate of 64% is slightly lower than the 71% reported in the meta-analysis. This difference could be attributed to the excessive demands placed on the operatively repaired Achilles tendon in NFL players combined with a body size, strength, and explosiveness that would further increase these demands."

 

You will hear people say recovery is 4-6 months.  The issue is here (especially with elite athletes) there's a big difference between being 'cleared for full activity' and being in 'football condition' and play in an NFL game.   And when they do play (and at times, if), it is at areduced skill level.

 

 

The Colts Doctor and medical team will also play a big role in any decision by CB / Irsay here, based upon Fisher's full medical evaluation and his progress and prognosis. It's not just about contract negotiations here.

 

 

2002 was 19 years ago. Alot also depends on the extent and location of the tear.

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7 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

Darn, I hate to be 'that guy' and rain on peoples parades.  But there's history and quantifiable numbers about this.

 

"Dr. Parekh performed a study and measure of functional outcome in the evaluation of “skill players” in the NFL, which included defensive tackles, cornerbacks, linebackers, wide receivers, and running backs.3 The power rating is a measure of a player’s performance using statistics gathered during game play, such as passing and rushing yards for an offensive player and tackles and interceptions for a defensive player. This study showed that 31 acute Achilles tendon ruptures occurred in NFL players between 1997 and 2002. The average age of a player sustaining a rupture was 29, with an average career before injury spanning six years."

 

"Of the 31 players who sustained an Achilles tendon rupture, 21 (64%) returned to play in the NFL at an average of 11 months after injury. In the three seasons following their return, those 21 players saw significant decreases in games played and power ratings compared to the three seasons preceding the injury."

 

"The percentage of players returning to play at the NFL level is consistent with a meta-analysis performed by Bhandari4 in 2002. The authors reported return to function rates of 63% for patients treated nonoperatively and 71% for those treated operatively. If we assume that all the NFL players were treated operatively, as would be the standard for young athletes, the return to play rate of 64% is slightly lower than the 71% reported in the meta-analysis. This difference could be attributed to the excessive demands placed on the operatively repaired Achilles tendon in NFL players combined with a body size, strength, and explosiveness that would further increase these demands."

 

You will hear people say recovery is 4-6 months.  The issue is here (especially with elite athletes) there's a big difference between being 'cleared for full activity' and being in 'football condition' and play in an NFL game.   And when they do play (and at times, if), it is at areduced skill level.

 

 

The Colts Doctor and medical team will also play a big role in any decision by CB / Irsay here, based upon Fisher's full medical evaluation and his progress and prognosis. It's not just about contract negotiations here.

 

 

That’s why I said good to go.  Ballard won’t go forward unless his medical staff gives him the green light.

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23 minutes ago, cdgacoltsfan said:

2002 was 19 years ago.

 

And how does that alter things?

 

Quote

Alot also depends on the extent and location of the tear.

 

If the extent isn't bad, it could be healed non surgically via a lengthy convalescent period. Surgical repair increases potential for full recovery though.

 

Santa Rosa Orthopaedics foot and ankle specialist Dr. Mark Schakel puts it this way-

 

“Surgically, Achilles tendon tears are comparatively easy to repair. A small incision is made over the back of the ankle, making it possible for the torn tendon ends to be sutured back together,” Schakel explains. “The greater issue for highly athletic patients is the recovery period that follows surgery. These types of injuries require physical therapy for up to a year or more, so the leg can recover enough for competition.” A period of immobilization is required to regain ankle range of motion and leg strength via physical therapy. Many athletes must undergo physical therapy for a year or more before the leg recovers enough to compete. Although the healing rates for surgery are high, it is still very difficult for athletes to fully recover their explosive power which is a real problem for professional basketball players."  I'd add football players as well.

 

People can read this article, from last July (2020) by Dane Wukich, M.D. Orthopaedic Surgery -

 

Achilles tendon injuries: Why do they take so long to heal?

 

 

 

 

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I can speak slightly to this since I was an offensive lineman that played all long the line and I also had a partial Achilles tear once.

 

I didn't require surgery but I did require 2.5 months of rehab/PT.

 

It definitely took me months (plural) once cleared to get back to form.

 

I definitely had major calf soreness since i was altering drop steps, kicks, etc and working more on the balls of my feet to minimize strain on the healing Achilles partially due to tightness but more-so due to mental issues not wanting to re-injure it.

 

And that wasn't even a full tear that required surgical repair.

 

So yea, this is not some quick and easy evaluation.

 

It is part of why I strongly believe it is a check in to see how rehab is going, get medical checks on timelines and then....THEN try to get contract number ideas.

 

I honestly would not be surprised if we have this meeting only to then turn around shortly thereafter and sign Leno.

 

And truthfully that might be the ideal scenario.

 

If we do take a Fisher visit and then immediately sign him then i would definitely see that as a big sign of positivity w his prognosis if so.

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I wonder how the Colts doctor checks progress on something like this, is it range of motion at this point?

 

The question is, lets say he has 10-15% less strength in his ankle. Does he become a terrible LT from that?

 

I dont think you can really tell until he gets on the field, which may be Oct.

 

I think you really cant give a contract with a tremendous amount of guarantees to him

 

Maybe it a 3 year deal with 2 years guaranteed

 

Tough decisions

 

 

 

 

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29 minutes ago, MikeCurtis said:

I wonder how the Colts doctor checks progress on something like this, is it range of motion at this point?

Range of motion and other key progress indicators they set, and gonna say scans.

 

Speaking in relation to historical studies discussed above. Gonna guess surgery is more advanced right now.

29 minutes ago, MikeCurtis said:

 

The question is, lets say he has 10-15% less strength in his ankle. Does he become a terrible LT from that?

Probably less impact than a position like WR or RB, but OLs are heavy, so not sure how weight impacts things.

29 minutes ago, MikeCurtis said:

 

I dont think you can really tell until he gets on the field, which may be Oct.

 

I think you really cant give a contract with a tremendous amount of guarantees to him

 

Maybe it a 3 year deal with 2 years guaranteed

 

Tough decisions

Yup, not easy. I'm guessing their doctors dig deep on his info/status, and are armed with a lot more recent studies on recovery outlook. 

 

I don't mind guarantees that are conditional. They just can't be large blind guarantees.

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3 minutes ago, JediXMan said:

Damn it WFT first they take Cosmi now possibly this lol.

Good thing we will have the Fisher info before he goes on that visit. This all probably won’t be resolved until next week. I doubt he signs anywhere  until he knows the colts are going after Fisher or not.

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The quieter things are the better. Somethings brewing. As mentioned above if Fisher is signed quickly then we should all feel (too an extent ) that he is further along than that imagined. Fingers crossed!

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10 minutes ago, Wentzszn said:

Leno is probably just taking visits because no one knows what’s going on with Fisher yet.

I think all the teams that need a T, and didn't get one in the draft, now know there are only really 3 decent prospects left. And all will kick those tires if possible.

 

It's a bad market due to the cap, but I think you might still see some small bidding battles. I'm just glad we have decent cap, even though we want to save it for extensions.

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11 minutes ago, CR91 said:

 

Leno would be making a mistake to sit and wait for us.  He needs to find a job.  This actually puts a little more pressure on Ballard to sign Fisher if he checks out.  Good chance Leno never leaves Washington.

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59 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Range of motion and other key progress indicators they set, and gonna say scans.

 

https://www.stoneclinic.com/achilles-tendon-repair-rehab-protocol

 

Quote

Speaking in relation to historical studies discussed above. Gonna guess surgery is more advanced right now.

 

There are really only 2 types of surgical repair for ruptured achilles-


Open surgery— This is where the orthopedic surgeon makes a single large incision on the back of your ankle and sews the two parts of the Achilles tendon back together.


Percutaneous surgery— This is a minimally invasive procedure where the orthopedic surgeon makes several small incisions instead of one larger one, and sews the two parts of the Achilles tendon back together. (likely the preferred method for athletes?).


The percutaneous repair provides function that is similar (but not better) than that achieved with open repair. It does have a better a cosmetic appearance, may show a lower rate of wound complications, and doesn't increase the risk of rupturing it again later.


I think I read about a somewhat newer version of a percutaneous technique, a limited-open procedure combined with a single anchor while using a “circuit” suture technique approach a few years ago. I do not think it has been used in the U.S. nor on elite athletes (or had not at the time). Other than claiming a potentially better 'full success rate' and a potentially stronger repair, I do not believe they claimed or demonstrated any decrease in recovery time frames.

 

Quote

Probably less impact than a position like WR or RB, but OLs are heavy, so not sure how weight impacts things.

 

Weight does have an impact.

 

Quote

Yup, not easy. I'm guessing their doctors dig deep on his info/status, and are armed with a lot more recent studies on recovery outlook. 

 

I'm going to go out on a limb and state a patient/athletes physical makeup and their dedication to rehab will have a lot more influence on recovery than a properly executed surgical technique/skill; as far as Achilles repair.  If you find newer stats (either for recovery times or repair procedures), go ahead and post them.

 

Quote

I don't mind guarantees that are conditional. They just can't be large blind guarantees.

 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

Leno would be making a mistake to sit and wait for us.  He needs to find a job.  This actually puts a little more pressure on Ballard to sign Fisher if he checks out.  Good chance Leno never leaves Washington.

Yep..... I agree the musical chairs are being set......

 

The music is playing.....

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1 minute ago, richard pallo said:

Leno would be making a mistake to sit and wait for us.  He needs to find a job.  This actually puts a little more pressure on Ballard to sign Fisher if he checks out.  Good chance Leno never leaves Washington.

Less than half (15) of the teams can afford a 10M or more contract without jettisoning somebody else. 

 

IMO, Colts, Broncos, and Giants all need a T. Washington looks now to be in the hunt. Colts and Broncos are in the best shape cap wise. NYG would need to free up room, or low ball one of the 3. There's a few other teams looking for OTs, so wouldn't be surprised if a few teams came out of nowhere. 

 

Denver wants to get back to being a running beast in a bad way. I can see them maybe giving us bidding competition.  WFT seems to be going all in too, so they might be pesky.

 

If I'm Ballard, I'm sweet talking all of them daily. 

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4 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

https://www.stoneclinic.com/achilles-tendon-repair-rehab-protocol

 

 

There are really only 2 types of surgical repair for ruptured achilles-


Open surgery— This is where the orthopedic surgeon makes a single large incision on the back of your ankle and sews the two parts of the Achilles tendon back together.


Percutaneous surgery— This is a minimally invasive procedure where the orthopedic surgeon makes several small incisions instead of one larger one, and sews the two parts of the Achilles tendon back together. (likely the preferred method for athletes?).


The percutaneous repair provides function that is similar (but not better) than that achieved with open repair. It does have a better a cosmetic appearance, may show a lower rate of wound complications, and doesn't increase the risk of rupturing it again later.


I think I read about a somewhat newer version of a percutaneous technique, a limited-open procedure combined with a single anchor while using a “circuit” suture technique approach a few years ago. I do not think it has been used in the U.S. nor on elite athletes (or had not at the time). Other than claiming a potentially better 'full success rate' and a potentially stronger repair, I do not believe they claimed or demonstrated any decrease in recovery time frames.

 

 

Weight does have an impact.

 

 

I'm going to go out on a limb and state a patient/athletes physical makeup and their dedication to rehab will have a lot more influence on recovery than surgical technique/skill; as far as Achilles repair.  If you find newer stats, go ahead and post them.

 

 

 

 

I appreciate this detailed information. Makes a visit here well worthwhile. 

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12 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

https://www.stoneclinic.com/achilles-tendon-repair-rehab-protocol

 

 

There are really only 2 types of surgical repair for ruptured achilles-


Open surgery— This is where the orthopedic surgeon makes a single large incision on the back of your ankle and sews the two parts of the Achilles tendon back together.


Percutaneous surgery— This is a minimally invasive procedure where the orthopedic surgeon makes several small incisions instead of one larger one, and sews the two parts of the Achilles tendon back together. (likely the preferred method for athletes?).


The percutaneous repair provides function that is similar (but not better) than that achieved with open repair. It does have a better a cosmetic appearance, may show a lower rate of wound complications, and doesn't increase the risk of rupturing it again later.


I think I read about a somewhat newer version of a percutaneous technique, a limited-open procedure combined with a single anchor while using a “circuit” suture technique approach a few years ago. I do not think it has been used in the U.S. nor on elite athletes (or had not at the time). Other than claiming a potentially better 'full success rate' and a potentially stronger repair, I do not believe they claimed or demonstrated any decrease in recovery time frames.

 

 

Weight does have an impact.

 

 

I'm going to go out on a limb and state a patient/athletes physical makeup and their dedication to rehab will have a lot more influence on recovery than a properly executed surgical technique/skill; as far as Achilles repair.  If you find newer stats (either for recovery times or repair procedures), go ahead and post them.

 

I have zero clue on ATs. 

 

I do have a good friend (my old racquetball and SB buddy) , who is a doctor (family, not sports surgeon) that has torn his own knee 3 times, about once a decade over 35 years. He said the surgery was like night and day better each time. 

 

So who do you think has a better success record with AT repairs. WRs, RBs, or OL?

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The more I think about it.  Why would Fisher agree to a visit unless he and his doctor’s and agent were confident that he could pass a physical and the scrutiny of our team of doctor’s and staff.  Otherwise why bother.  They know we are in the market for a tackle right now.  If he should fail we are moving on to Leno or someone else.  It sure feels to me like he’s going to be our new LT.  

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