If BlueShoe was the GM... What would his thoughts be...

[shasta519]

44 minutes ago, Myles said:

Björn?

 

No...Fred Warner. I did NOT want Werner. Vehemently hated that pick. I was a Rhodes and Hopkins guy in that draft.

[Myles]

6 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

 

No...Fred Warner. I did NOT want Werner. Vehemently hated that pick. I was a Rhodes and Hopkins guy in that draft.

I was just messing with you.    I knew you didn't mean Bjorn.   Ha ha. 

[Zoltan]

1 hour ago, NewColtsFan said:

I’m guessing Rogers, the little corner we took from UMASS last year in the 6th,  is our backup for Moore.   Certainly size-wise.  
 

But I still like Wade as a Day 3 pick with upside.  

 

That's a possibility I wasn't thinking about.

[BlueShoe]

6 hours ago, krunk said:

Im not going to attack Polian bc i knew hed be more than okay with him. Him and Dungy didnt really harp on the size of edge players that much as long as they could put an adequate amount of pressure on the pocket. But in saying that we usually gave up something in terms of run defense and our ability to set the edge.

Yeah, Dungy was okay with a smaller player. I mean Cato June was a converted safety. Ojulari’s arm length adds a tremendous wing span. My eyes tell me that he plays the run very well. Not sure why he is getting knocked for it. Not that you are knocking him; just saying that seems to be the general point of view. I think some people see the 249 and assume. Just my guess. 

[Superman]

14 hours ago, EastStreet said:

As far a the pass D, I think it's vanilla pass rush (lack of blitzing and stunting) combined with super soft zone, more than guys playing poorly. I think S play vs the pass will be a weakness, even more than last year. 

 

I do agree coverages may not have been executed well, but I also think the complexity of more rip/liz stuff might be to blame. All the LBs took on more responsibility it seemed, and most dropped in pass D grades. Only Rhodes and Willis (who is likely asked to do least) took steps forward in grades IIRC. 

 

Give me more blitzing (at least up to league median) and a coverage scheme that lets players play, and is not overly complex.

 

Some of this is just difference in philosophy. You feel differently about the scheme and coaching than I do. (We also feel differently about PFF grades.)

 

But no matter how you feel about the scheme, it's not a surprise that a young secondary made mistakes in advanced coverages. There's a very real possibility that sending more rushers puts more pressure on that same secondary. The hopeful trade-off is that they have a bigger margin of error due to increased pressure, but you might also have more open receivers, and blown coverages.

[EastStreet]

5 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Some of this is just difference in philosophy. You feel differently about the scheme and coaching than I do. (We also feel differently about PFF grades.)

 

But no matter how you feel about the scheme, it's not a surprise that a young secondary made mistakes in advanced coverages. There's a very real possibility that sending more rushers puts more pressure on that same secondary. The hopeful trade-off is that they have a bigger margin of error due to increased pressure, but you might also have more open receivers, and blown coverages.

The fact is, folks are complaining about our lack of pressure. They shouldn't really complain about the players IMO. We are one of the least blitzing teams in the league. With a guy that was top 10 in pass rush win rate (Houston), plus a guy like Buckner at 3T, the blame goes primarily to scheme and play calling. If you're vanilla, opposing OLs settle in and no what to expect.

 

Blitzing = putting more pressure on DBs, is a chicken and egg conversation. One could also say not getting pressure with a conservative 4 man rush puts more pressure on DBs. And when we did blitz, we weren't all that great, especially Oke. And it's hard to get "coverage" sacks when you're playing a soft zone. Again, not asking for us to be blitz happy like some teams, just not near the bottom in %.

 

Good coaches put their players (young or old) in good positions to succeed. If your starting young guys, and asking them to do complex things, you expect mistakes. I'd prefer a scheme that asked young guys to do less complex things, and simply play.

[BlueShoe]

11 hours ago, EastStreet said:

The fact is, folks are complaining about our lack of pressure. They shouldn't really complain about the players IMO. We are one of the least blitzing teams in the league. With a guy that was top 10 in pass rush win rate (Houston), plus a guy like Buckner at 3T, the blame goes primarily to scheme and play calling. If you're vanilla, opposing OLs settle in and no what to expect.

 

Blitzing = putting more pressure on DBs, is a chicken and egg conversation. One could also say not getting pressure with a conservative 4 man rush puts more pressure on DBs. And when we did blitz, we weren't all that great, especially Oke. And it's hard to get "coverage" sacks when you're playing a soft zone. Again, not asking for us to be blitz happy like some teams, just not near the bottom in %.

 

Good coaches put their players (young or old) in good positions to succeed. If your starting young guys, and asking them to do complex things, you expect mistakes. I'd prefer a scheme that asked young guys to do less complex things, and simply play.

In that first Houston game, I was begging for us to stop blitzing. Watson kept hitting the hot route or scrambling free. We did much better in the second game against him though, and we blitzed a lot less. 
 

Bottom line, we need some 9 techniques who can put a lot of pressure on both tackles. We don’t have anyone like that on this team. 
 

It’s funny, because I was telling some friends the other day that back when we had Freeney  and Mathis, we had a hard time finding good defensive tackles. Now, we have great defensive tackles, and we’re struggling to find the complimentary ends. 
 

No matter what defense we are in, we have to get pressure on the quarterback. We cannot expect our defense to stay with receivers for long periods of time. The Steelers (albeit a 3-4) has put together a lot of outstanding defenses just by playing zone in the secondary and sending different combinations of 4 or 5. 
 

I think this draft has a lot of depth at corner, and I could see us grabbing one on Day 3... Possibly even earlier, but it would have to be a blue chip player.

 

Let’s say we go with an OT in the first... Maybe we even move back with Pittsburgh, Cleveland, or Buffalo and pick up another late Day 2 player, or more. Whether we take an OT at 21, or by moving back in the first round... That’s going to leave us in an unfavorable position for getting a DE. 
 

In the event that we find ourself in the above situation... It would be nice to have an extra pick or two... I think we would need to take a hard look at Shaka Toney and/or Malcolm Koonce. Take both of them!  
 

We just don’t have those speed rushers coming off the edges. In my opinion, we need those 9 techniques to really make this defense go to the next level. When we get the lead, we need to send in the closers! 
 

Ojulari has the potential to be a huge difference maker for us. 
 

 

[EastStreet]

10 hours ago, BlueShoe said:

In that first Houston game, I was begging for us to stop blitzing. Watson kept hitting the hot route or scrambling free. We did much better in the second game against him though, and we blitzed a lot less. 
 

Bottom line, we need some 9 techniques who can put a lot of pressure on both tackles. We don’t have anyone like that on this team. 
 

It’s funny, because I was telling some friends the other day that back when we had Freeney  and Mathis, we had a hard time finding good defensive tackles. Now, we have great defensive tackles, and we’re struggling to find the complimentary ends. 
 

No matter what defense we are in, we have to get pressure on the quarterback. We cannot expect our defense to stay with receivers for long periods of time. The Steelers (albeit a 3-4) has put together a lot of outstanding defenses just by playing zone in the secondary and sending different combinations of 4 or 5. 

Pitt also blitzes at a top 5 rate (around 40%) along with other teams like Baltimore, Tampa Bay, Miami, and AZ. The Colts blitz second least in the league at 17ish%.

10 hours ago, BlueShoe said:

I think this draft has a lot of depth at corner, and I could see us grabbing one on Day 3... Possibly even earlier, but it would have to be a blue chip player.

 

Let’s say we go with an OT in the first... Maybe we even move back with Pittsburgh, Cleveland, or Buffalo and pick up another late Day 2 player, or more. Whether we take an OT at 21, or by moving back in the first round... That’s going to leave us in an unfavorable position for getting a DE. 
 

In the event that we find ourself in the above situation... It would be nice to have an extra pick or two... I think we would need to take a hard look at Shaka Toney and/or Malcolm Koonce. Take both of them!  
 

We just don’t have those speed rushers coming off the edges. In my opinion, we need those 9 techniques to really make this defense go to the next level. When we get the lead, we need to send in the closers! 
 

Ojulari has the potential to be a huge difference maker for us. 

Like I've said pretty consistently, I think it's silly to not take advantage of the OL depth. And given the depth of OT, and the fact we'll be paying 3 guys already on our OL top 5 pay (at positions) soon, I think it's somewhat silly to think we "need" an OT at 21. 

 

And given this draft is not great at DE depth, silly not to take one in the first given our needs.

 

Like I said, I like Ojulari, just not as a 3 down 4-3 DE in our scheme. If all you want is a late down pass rusher, he'd be fine, but not at 21. Give me Oweh, Paye, or one of the guys from Miami that look to have a higher 3 down ceilings in the 4-3.

 

Comparing Ojulari to rarities or unicorns like Mathis or Miller (who was 3-4 anyway) is just not a good strategy when comparing our scheme now.

 

If we move back slightly with the 1st, I still wouldn't change the strategy. Give me Little or Radunz, or one other high ceiling (but may need a bit of time) OTs at 54. I agree this is a decent CB class, but other than the top 3, I see a lot of guys in the second tier with a ton of upside. I wouldn't go 1st at all given our other needs (or our only 2nd, or first second if we happen to pick one up). I'd go with our 3rd pick if there's not another guy we want more. I also think this is a decent LB class, and I think our current LB need is as high or higher than current CB need. If I had to rank our needs, it would be 1 DE, 2 OT, 3 LB or CB or FS, 4 WR or TE. I think DE, OT, and LB are more immediate than the others I listed.

 

[krunk]

I dont think we will get anywhere close to drafting Paye or Ojulari in this draft. The talent pool isnt that deep. The elite talent is going to go quicker than usual in my opinion.

[BlueShoe]

13 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Pitt also blitzes at a top 5 rate (around 40%) along with other teams like Baltimore, Tampa Bay, Miami, and AZ. The Colts blitz second least in the league at 17ish%.

 

Like I've said pretty consistently, I think it's silly to not take advantage of the OL depth. And given the depth of OT, and the fact we'll be paying 3 guys already on our OL top 5 pay (at positions) soon, I think it's somewhat silly to think we "need" an OT at 21. 

 

And given this draft is not great at DE depth, silly not to take one in the first given our needs.

 

Like I said, I like Ojulari, just not as a 3 down 4-3 DE in our scheme. If all you want is a late down pass rusher, he'd be fine, but not at 21. Give me Oweh, Paye, or one of the guys from Miami that look to have a higher 3 down ceilings in the 4-3.

 

Comparing Ojulari to rarities or unicorns like Mathis or Miller (who was 3-4 anyway) is just not a good strategy when comparing our scheme now.

 

If we move back slightly with the 1st, I still wouldn't change the strategy. Give me Little or Radunz, or one other high ceiling (but may need a bit of time) OTs at 54. I agree this is a decent CB class, but other than the top 3, I see a lot of guys in the second tier with a ton of upside. I wouldn't go 1st at all given our other needs (or our only 2nd, or first second if we happen to pick one up). I'd go with our 3rd pick if there's not another guy we want more. I also think this is a decent LB class, and I think our current LB need is as high or higher than current CB need. If I had to rank our needs, it would be 1 DE, 2 OT, 3 LB or CB or FS, 4 WR or TE. I think DE, OT, and LB are more immediate than the others I listed.

 

I would say that Pittsburgh effectively blitzes and they send a combination of different players and drop players. They’re an advance blitzing team. 
 

You keep saying that I’m comparing Ojulari to unicorns. That’s your opinion. I completely, 100% disagree with your thoughts about him. 
 

I do agree that LB is a position that could surprise some folks. I’m not ruling out a first round LB. I also agree that we will likely take a  corner later in the draft. It’s always possible that we could take one early, but it would have to be a Bluechip player. 
 

There is only one defensive end I would take at 21, and that’s Ojulari. Ballard might see it differently, and ultimately he makes the call. 
 

I agree with your needs order... I think you’re lumping secondary, receiver and tight end all together as 4th most important. I would agree if that is what you’re saying. 
 

I believe the draft sets up the best for us, if a Bluechip player (non OT) falls to us at 21. Or if we move back and stay in the first round. Because there are a lot of offensive lineman in this draft that could help our team. I see is taking 2 offensive lineman, but that will obviously depend on how things fall. 
 

That said, if Ojulari is within striking distance then I would absolutely move up to get him. I know you’re not seeing it that way, but I do. I believe he would be a game changer for us. 
 

There are probably 2 players I would move up for; Ojulari or DeVonta Smith. Either one of those players gets close... In my mind, we have to seriously consider giving up some

capital to go get them. 

[EastStreet]

7 hours ago, BlueShoe said:

I would say that Pittsburgh effectively blitzes and they send a combination of different players and drop players. They’re an advance blitzing team. 

Effectively or ineffectively, they blitz at a near league high. It's their brand of football just like Baltimore.

7 hours ago, BlueShoe said:

You keep saying that I’m comparing Ojulari to unicorns. That’s your opinion. I completely, 100% disagree with your thoughts about him. 

There just aren't very many 6-2 sub 250 guys that are 3 down DEs in the NFL. You've only thrown out two names from the last 20 years, and one was Mathis who was unicorn, and the other was Miller who was an OLB. Fill free to diagree.

7 hours ago, BlueShoe said:

I do agree that LB is a position that could surprise some folks. I’m not ruling out a first round LB. I also agree that we will likely take a  corner later in the draft. It’s always possible that we could take one early, but it would have to be a Bluechip player. 

I'm talking without a lot of research, but it feels like this is one of the better LB classes we've had in the last 5 years. Wish we had a 3rd rounder.

7 hours ago, BlueShoe said:

There is only one defensive end I would take at 21, and that’s Ojulari. Ballard might see it differently, and ultimately he makes the call. 

There are 4 I'd be very happy with. 2 with outstanding traits. 2 with outstanding production. All prototypical 4-3 guys. If we were a 3-4 I'd be very happy with Ojulari. 

 

7 hours ago, BlueShoe said:

I agree with your needs order... I think you’re lumping secondary, receiver and tight end all together as 4th most important. I would agree if that is what you’re saying. 
 

I believe the draft sets up the best for us, if a Bluechip player (non OT) falls to us at 21. Or if we move back and stay in the first round. Because there are a lot of offensive lineman in this draft that could help our team. I see is taking 2 offensive lineman, but that will obviously depend on how things fall. 
 

That said, if Ojulari is within striking distance then I would absolutely move up to get him. I know you’re not seeing it that way, but I do. I believe he would be a game changer for us. 
 

There are probably 2 players I would move up for; Ojulari or DeVonta Smith. Either one of those players gets close... In my mind, we have to seriously consider giving up some

capital to go get them. 

Highly doubt Ballard would move up for any player in the 1st. Frankly I don't see many players worth moving up for this year. 

[BlueShoe]

17 hours ago, krunk said:

I dont think we will get anywhere close to drafting Paye or Ojulari in this draft. The talent pool isnt that deep. The elite talent is going to go quicker than usual in my opinion.

Here is my problem with Paye. To me, he plays like a defensive tackle. I think he is a lighter version of Tyquan Lewis. That doesn’t mean he cannot play on the edge. He can. But I don’t believe he is going to be a strong pass rusher. He plays the run extremely well though. Look at his tape. A lot of his pressures came from inside. 

[BlueShoe]

1 hour ago, EastStreet said:

Effectively or ineffectively, they blitz at a near league high. It's their brand of football just like Baltimore.

There just aren't very many 6-2 sub 250 guys that are 3 down DEs in the NFL. You've only thrown out two names from the last 20 years, and one was Mathis who was unicorn, and the other was Miller who was an OLB. Fill free to diagree.

I'm talking without a lot of research, but it feels like this is one of the better LB classes we've had in the last 5 years. Wish we had a 3rd rounder.

There are 4 I'd be very happy with. 2 with outstanding traits. 2 with outstanding production. All prototypical 4-3 guys. If we were a 3-4 I'd be very happy with Ojulari. 

 

Highly doubt Ballard would move up for any player in the 1st. Frankly I don't see many players worth moving up for this year. 

Looks like we agree on some things, but we disagree on Ojulari. Everyone is not always going to agree on everything.