OK, so juxtapose Wentz vs that 49ers trade ... we win

[Mackrel829]

8 hours ago, chad72 said:

Yep. In poker terms, he’d fold more than play, but cashes in most of the time he plays. He’s measured, smart, guarded more often and not knee jerk or aggressive, IMO.

 

'Measured' is the exact word that I use to describe Ballard.

 

He isn't aggressive but he does make aggressive moves. There's a fine line between being aggressive and being reckless.

[AwesomeAustin]

6 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

I think Jones is better than Tua too. Put them both on teams with bad OLs and I'll take Tua though.

 

Bama fans are pretty good in general, especially actual students and campus folks. Now game day, when you have all the non-grad fans, it's a little different. I've had more issues with UGA fans than any  other SEC team. Some Gator fans can be a handful too.

Vols fans are pretty terrible. Last game I went to our student section threw at least 200 paper hand fans at the visiting team when they were walking to the locker room for half time. We were winning 38-0. I told my mom we were leaving and two groups of people talked smack on our way out for not finishing the game. Most of our fans are delusional and still think we are the powerhouse of the late 90s.  

[Smoke317]

6 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Smith to is very similar to Marvin.

 

I really like what Mack can do from a pure standing in the pocket and passing perspective, it'll just take the right team match. He could totally ball out if he lucks out and goes to the right team, or could simple be ruined really quick if he gets a bad match.

 

Still wouldn't take him before Lance. Maybe before Fields. Obviously not before Lawrence or Wilson. Wilson I saw blew up. Only missed like one of 60+ throws at his pro day.

Where are people getting these numbers from?  I watched Wilson’s entire pro day and he had 4-5 missed throws at least.  Not saying it wasn’t a good pro day but this only 1 miss is a complete falsehood. 

[joecolts]

7 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Only if he goes to a team with a very good OL, and a somewhat old school pocket scheme.

 

More concerning to me than his lack of mobility, is simply the talent he had around him. Keep in mind both of his WRs are mocked in the first (maybe both top 10) along with his OT. His RB and C are mocked early 2nd. His G will likely go 3rd. And there are more that started last season that would go early, but simply aren't eligible to jump to the NFL yet. Waddle and Smith were two of the best WRs in the nation in separation. 

 

No disagreement that Jones had great talent around him.  Also, no argument that a line will be critical.  Just as it is for all teams.  My point is that Jones has the skills and abilities to be extremely special at this level.  I firmly believe he will be too tier.  

[Rally5]

14 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

I've been dropping this interesting factoid into threads since we made the trade for Wentz about a month ago....

 

From ESPN's Field Yates.     In the 8 year span of 2009 thru 2016,  22 QB's were drafted in the first round.

 

And now,  ZERO are with the team that originally drafted them.    ZERO.    0-for-22.   So, the idea that drafting a first round QB is a 50-50 crapshoot is questionable.    It's factoid's like this that make Ballard so reluctant to make a huge expensive trade up to draft a college kid.

 

A 3 and a likely 1 for Wentz?    Even if it doesn't pan out as we hope,  these days, it's a bargain price and simply the cost of doing business in the NFL.   

 

Honestly,  I think this is the Factoid of the Year.   I'm sure I'll be dropping it into future conversations as well.

Sidebar, you're a Stanford guy right?  Davis Mills looks impressive to me, why isn't he getting more attention?  Simi Frehoko seems good too.  What are your thoughts?

[NewColtsFan]

3 hours ago, Rally5 said:

Sidebar, you're a Stanford guy right?  Davis Mills looks impressive to me, why isn't he getting more attention?  Simi Frehoko seems good too.  What are your thoughts?

The thing with Mills...    just 11 starts over the last two years.     But his tape is very good, and he had a very good Pro Day.    Hard to take a QB too high with that few starts.   I’m guessing mid-3rd to mid-4th.   Roughly 80-120.   Jeremiah praised him, calling him the QB who won’t go in the 1st most likely to eventually start someday.   Nice! 
 

Fehoko strikes me as a poor man’s Pittman.  I’m guessing 4th....   his testing was surprisingly good. 
 

Others to consider...   CB Paulson Adebo..    I think he’s goes in the 3rd...   he tested very well. 

 

and OT Walker Little has a bigger spread, because he basically hasn’t played for two years.    I’m guessing roughly pick 35-85.    If we go DE in the first, I hope we’d consider him with our 2nd round pick.   
 

Thanks for asking. 

[EastStreet]

4 hours ago, AwesomeAustin said:

Vols fans are pretty terrible. Last game I went to our student section threw at least 200 paper hand fans at the visiting team when they were walking to the locker room for half time. We were winning 38-0. I told my mom we were leaving and two groups of people talked smack on our way out for not finishing the game. Most of our fans are delusional and still think we are the powerhouse of the late 90s.  

I've been to many games at Neyland, and had season tix for a while. I've been to a ton of games between the hedges too, as well as a lot of other SEC, ACC, and Big 10 stadiums. I can tell you with certainty, Vol fans are not near as bad as some. A matter a fact, I'd say they were near the best tailgating in Knoxville, and travelling.

[EastStreet]

4 hours ago, Smoke317 said:

Where are people getting these numbers from?  I watched Wilson’s entire pro day and he had 4-5 missed throws at least.  Not saying it wasn’t a good pro day but this only 1 miss is a complete falsehood. 

I had it on the TV too. Honestly I didn't count drops. I had half an eye on him, and he looked awesome. Just about every media outlet has gushed though. Even Lawrence was wow-ing him.

 

https://www.deseret.com/sports/2021/3/27/22352364/byu-football-zach-wilson-wow-throw-pro-day-byu-john-beck-nfl-scouts-impressed

 

 

[EastStreet]

4 hours ago, joecolts said:

No disagreement that Jones had great talent around him.  Also, no argument that a line will be critical.  Just as it is for all teams.  My point is that Jones has the skills and abilities to be extremely special at this level.  I firmly believe he will be too tier.  

I think he has elite passing ability given the team and situation. I too think he can be top tier in the right situation. I just think he could be ruined quickly in the wrong one. He's just more susceptible to some things than other QBs. 

[Smoke317]

1 hour ago, EastStreet said:

I had it on the TV too. Honestly I didn't count drops. I had half an eye on him, and he looked awesome. Just about every media outlet has gushed though. Even Lawrence was wow-ing him.

 

https://www.deseret.com/sports/2021/3/27/22352364/byu-football-zach-wilson-wow-throw-pro-day-byu-john-beck-nfl-scouts-impressed

 

 

He definitely made some nice throws. His best being the deep ball back across his body.  Amazing throw.  But I’ve gotta question the validity of the Wilson narrative when a guy will post a flat out lie that he completed 67 of 68 passes like Geoff Schwartz from Pac 12 today posted.  
 

The hype machine is in full overdrive for Wilson.  Making me question if his family (uncle founded Jet Blue) is paying people to boost his stock???  His pro day was good but nowhere near the “best pro day ever” that some are making it out to be...

[EastStreet]

2 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

He definitely made some nice throws. His best being the deep ball back across his body.  But I’ve gotta question the validity of the Wilson narrative when a guy will post a flat out lie that he completed 67 of 68 passes.  The hype machine is in full overdrive for Wilson.  Making me question if his family (uncle founded Jet Blue) is paying people to boost his stock???  His pro day was good but nowhere near the “best pro day ever” that some are making it out to be...

I think you're being a bit tin foil here. Several media outlets reported the same thing. Either they were all piggybacking off one report, or just calculated things differently (maybe subtracting drops or other stuff).

 

here's his full pro day (every throw). I'm going to take another look.

 

[Smoke317]

22 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

I think you're being a bit tin foil here. Several media outlets reported the same thing. Either they were all piggybacking off one report, or just calculated things differently (maybe subtracting drops or other stuff).

 

here's his full pro day (every throw). I'm going to take another look.

 

Maybe the family portion is tin foil (lol) but what would you call several media outlets all reporting the same false information? His first miss was on a 10 yard out.  He threw it a few feet over the receiver’s head.  He had a couple more misses where the commentators themselves said maybe the passes got away from him.  Also missed on a couple of the deep throws and at least one of the other back across his body throws.  
 

Like I said, still a good pro day.  Just don’t understand the over hype.  Lawrence had a great pro day as well.  Only noticeable misses Trevor had besides a couple deep passes was getting it up and down inside the back goal line on the red zone throws.  Kept leading the receiver out the back of the end zone.  I have to rewatch because I don’t remember if Zach even attempted those kinds of throws.  
 

Still impressive from Lawrence (especially factoring in the fact he couldn’t lift weights for weeks prior).  Easily as impressive as Wilson. I’d say both were more accurate than Lance but Trey had some serious zip on his short and intermediate throws.  Mac Jones missed just as many throws as Lance.  Couple easy misses too.

[TheNextGM]

Off topic but Mac Jones will be the biggest bust of 2021 draft.

 

I hope the Texans deal Watson and end up with Jones. Or the Pats trade up to get him.

 

He’ll bust. 

[Dingus McGirt]

Prediction:  This draft will be historic in the number of busts who emerge.  
 

[Dingus McGirt]

18 hours ago, danlhart87 said:

Hes gonna be the best in this class 

You mispelled  “bust.”

[EastStreet]

1 hour ago, Smoke317 said:

Maybe the family portion is tin foil (lol) but what would you call several media outlets all reporting the same false information? His first miss was on a 10 yard out.  He threw it a few feet over the receiver’s head.  He had a couple more misses where the commentators themselves said maybe the passes got away from him.  Also missed on a couple of the deep throws and at least one of the other back across his body throws.  
 

Like I said, still a good pro day.  Just don’t understand the over hype.  Lawrence had a great pro day as well.  Only noticeable misses Trevor had besides a couple deep passes was getting it up and down inside the back goal line on the red zone throws.  Kept leading the receiver out the back of the end zone.  I have to rewatch because I don’t remember if Zach even attempted those kinds of throws.  
 

Still impressive from Lawrence (especially factoring in the fact he couldn’t lift weights for weeks prior).  Easily as impressive as Wilson. I’d say both were more accurate than Lance but Trey had some serious zip on his short and intermediate throws.  Mac Jones missed just as many throws as Lance.  Couple easy misses too.

 

Haven't watched it all again as I've got several competing sports priorities today lol. All I'll say is they probably were just piggybacking like the media does every single day. Most reporting is regurgitating what someone else did, say, or tweeted.

 

 

[Smoke317]

59 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

Haven't watched it all again as I've got several competing sports priorities today lol. All I'll say is they probably were just piggybacking like the media does every single day. Most reporting is regurgitating what someone else did, say, or tweeted.

 

 

I feel you on that one.  I’m all in on the tournament this weekend. I will admit though, that across his body throw for about 50 plus yards was filthy.  Even Trevor gave him props on that one.  

[EastStreet]

3 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

I feel you on that one.  I’m all in on the tournament this weekend. I will admit though, that across his body throw for about 50 plus yards was filthy.  Even Trevor gave him props on that one.  

CFB spring practice, CBB tourney... it's a good weekend for sports.

[JoeThornburg]

22 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Only if he goes to a team with a very good OL, and a somewhat old school pocket scheme.

 

More concerning to me than his lack of mobility, is simply the talent he had around him. Keep in mind both of his WRs are mocked in the first (maybe both top 10) along with his OT. His RB and C are mocked early 2nd. His G will likely go 3rd. And there are more that started last season that would go early, but simply aren't eligible to jump to the NFL yet. Waddle and Smith were two of the best WRs in the nation in separation. 

 

I agree 100%, QB from Alabama? No thanks, hard pass. I felt the same way about QBs from USC back in the Carrol era.

[EastStreet]

2 hours ago, JoeThornburg said:

I agree 100%, QB from Alabama? No thanks, hard pass. I felt the same way about QBs from USC back in the Carrol era.

While I agree some schools carry a stigma (for very legit reasons), I don't thank you can simply dismiss guys without an honest look. I've really never been a big fan of Bama QBs. Aside from Namath, I mean, who really is there. I do think Jones has some elite characteristics, and is probably the best passer to come through there in a long long time. He just needs to find a situation that doesn't require a lot from his legs.

 

Just in general, you always have to look at prospects in the context of scheme, talent around them, and level of competition. Bama, in general, simply has so much talent on a regular basis, and such a great scheme/coach, there is just a built in risk with most players coming out of Tuscaloosa. Doesn't mean they won't be great, just means you can't take their college stats as Gospel.

[NewColtsFan]

3 hours ago, JoeThornburg said:

I agree 100%, QB from Alabama? No thanks, hard pass. I felt the same way about QBs from USC back in the Carrol era.

People used to say the same thing about Oregon QBs.    They had a string of high profile QBs that flamed out.   Harrington and Smith off the top of my head.  
 

People said the same thing about Herbert a year ago.   Yet, so far so good.   He’s turned out great in his first year and maybe he will end the stigma around Oregon QBs?   
 

[stitches]

3 hours ago, JoeThornburg said:

I agree 100%, QB from Alabama? No thanks, hard pass. I felt the same way about QBs from USC back in the Carrol era.

 

10 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

While I agree some schools carry a stigma (for very legit reasons), I don't thank you can simply dismiss guys without an honest look. I've really never been a big fan of Bama QBs. Aside from Namath, I mean, who really is there. I do think Jones has some elite characteristics, and is probably the best passer to come through there in a long long time. He just needs to find a situation that doesn't require a lot from his legs.

 

Just in general, you always have to look at prospects in the context of scheme, talent around them, and level of competition. Bama, in general, simply has so much talent on a regular basis, and such a great scheme/coach, there is just a built in risk with most players coming out of Tuscaloosa. Doesn't mean they won't be great, just means you can't take their college stats as Gospel.

 

1 minute ago, NewColtsFan said:

People used to say the same thing about Oregon QBs.    They had a string of high profile QBs that flamed out.   Harrington and Smith off the top of my head.  
 

People said the same thing about Herbert a year ago.   Yet, so far so good.   He’s turned out great in his first year and maybe he will end the stigma around Oregon QBs?   
 

"Scout the player, not the helmet"

[EastStreet]

14 minutes ago, stitches said:

 

 

"Scout the player, not the helmet"

Agreed, but you should be mindful of the helmet, level of competition, etc. at the same time.

[BlueShoe]

1 hour ago, NewColtsFan said:

People used to say the same thing about Oregon QBs.    They had a string of high profile QBs that flamed out.   Harrington and Smith off the top of my head.  
 

People said the same thing about Herbert a year ago.   Yet, so far so good.   He’s turned out great in his first year and maybe he will end the stigma around Oregon QBs?   
 

Sometimes, it’s really easy to scout QBs. Herbert was in striking distance for us. Not complaining that we traded our first for Buckner. That was a great deal for us. 
 

I wrote this over a year ago. 

 

 

[JoeThornburg]

5 hours ago, EastStreet said:

While I agree some schools carry a stigma (for very legit reasons), I don't thank you can simply dismiss guys without an honest look. I've really never been a big fan of Bama QBs. Aside from Namath, I mean, who really is there. I do think Jones has some elite characteristics, and is probably the best passer to come through there in a long long time. He just needs to find a situation that doesn't require a lot from his legs.

 

Just in general, you always have to look at prospects in the context of scheme, talent around them, and level of competition. Bama, in general, simply has so much talent on a regular basis, and such a great scheme/coach, there is just a built in risk with most players coming out of Tuscaloosa. Doesn't mean they won't be great, just means you can't take their college stats as Gospel.

 

 

5 hours ago, stitches said:

 

 

"Scout the player, not the helmet"

 

5 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

People used to say the same thing about Oregon QBs.    They had a string of high profile QBs that flamed out.   Harrington and Smith off the top of my head.  
 

People said the same thing about Herbert a year ago.   Yet, so far so good.   He’s turned out great in his first year and maybe he will end the stigma around Oregon QBs?   
 

I do agree with that logic. But Manziel was in a very similar situation at TA&M, which for the school was an outlier. We are talking about Alabama, not Oregon, not TA&M. We are talking about Saban at this point and how he does things. It was not much different with Carrol. The talent gradient in college is just so vast compared to the NFL and based on film, Jones is way below all the others in the 1st round discussion. I should have chosen my words a bit more carefully perhaps but I am just guarded against this over-valuation of college QBs coming into the NFL. To be honest I am leery of every single one of them, even Lawrence. The problem I have with this is that some of these kids do get drafted because of the helmet they wore in college and are overvalued as a result. The entire system in college is a beauty pageant when it comes to rankings and it gets worse every year.

 

I don't place all of that on the athlete. I also feel the way the game is structured now that too much is expected of them too soon at the QB position. Two of the best football players (opinion) that I have had the pleasure of truly watching play this great game came from Miami of Ohio and Alcorn State. So you will not get an argument from me on bring the player. The other thing I should have qualified that statement with is again, how much NFL teams reach for QB talent these days and overpay for it and neglect the rest of the team. We are all watching that play out in Pittsburgh right now, and in Atlanta.

 

When you have guys like Garoppolo, Foles, even Big Ben making or winning the SB I just feel it calls the entire line of thinking into question that if you don't burn a high draft pick on a QB from a major college and then pay through the nose for it to the detriment of your team that you're doing something wrong. 

[shasta519]

On 3/27/2021 at 12:25 AM, AwesomeAustin said:

I know this doesn’t mean much but I found it interesting.  I traveled to Florida this week and made a pit stop in Tuscaloosa to see the stadium and the statues leading up to it(very cool to see if you ever have the chance).  I talked to 7-8 Bama fans and they all said Mac Jones is better than Tua who they also really liked.  I don’t know if that is bc he just won a natty with them or if they really see a difference. 
 

Btw, I’m a huge UT Vols fan and I wore my Vols shirt on campus.  Wife was a little nervous bc she knows SEC football is huge in the south.  Everyone was a class act and asked about my team. I expected them to be a little arrogant but was the opposite.  Really cool experience. 

Yeah...MIA committing to Tua seems crazy to me with this draft class. Maybe I am just too high on it, but I think there will 4-5 really good QBs from it.

 

MIA was in such a unique situation that they could have literally allowed two top 5 pick QBs to duke it out without impacting their roster construction. And they could have always gotten back some draft capital for Tua after the dead if they decided to go another direction.

 

 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

4 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

Yeah...MIA committing to Tua seems crazy to me with this draft class. Maybe I am just too high on it, but I think there will 4-5 really good QBs from it.

 

MIA was in such a unique situation that they could have literally allowed two top 5 pick QBs to duke it out without impacting their roster construction. And they could have always gotten back some draft capital for Tua after the dead if they decided to go another direction.

 

 

They could be positioning themselves for a run at Watson if these allegations get cleared up.

[shasta519]

13 minutes ago, Wentzszn said:

They could be positioning themselves for a run at Watson if these allegations get cleared up.

True...but HOU would have to want Tua in this scenario because MIA traded away their gtd QB pick. 
 

Not sure what will happen with Watson, but I still think the NYJ are the most likely. But I don’t see how he gets traded  for a long time.

[EastStreet]

5 minutes ago, Wentzszn said:

They could be positioning themselves for a run at Watson if these allegations get cleared up.

Looks like it will be a good while before anything is close to being cleared up. IMO, after the dust settles and all the civil suits are filed (I think there might be more), there is a good possibility a grand jury will look at things. Then you'll have testimonies, etc.. You'll also likely have a league investigation. All of that will take time. 

 

In short, his market value just took a major hit. Even if it doesn't evolve into a criminal charges, the civil stuff will drag on and taint things for a while. 

 

Interesting that a month ago, many were outraged the Texans wouldn't let Watson choose their next GM and coach. Those folks are pretty quiet now. I'm sure the Texans wish they would have traded him for the first offer that came in now. Any team that wanted him, will now press pause. And if things do die down, he'll come at a discount. IMO, things will stay cloudy for a while, and he'll end up staying in Houston (that's if things don't go totally bad). I said early on, I would trade his whiny self in a heartbeat, and rebuild with the draft picks. Now Houston is stuck. And it seams Watson is too.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Eagle fans are so bad. How can you hate this guy.

 

[EastStreet]

5 minutes ago, Wentzszn said:

Eagle fans are so bad. How can you hate this guy.

 

I'm sure he'll be so delighted with Hurts and Flacco... 

 

Wentz looks awfully happy he found some land. Good for him! Wonder if he has some forest around there for hunting. 

[chad72]

On 3/27/2021 at 12:19 AM, EastStreet said:

Only if he goes to a team with a very good OL, and a somewhat old school pocket scheme.

 

More concerning to me than his lack of mobility, is simply the talent he had around him. Keep in mind both of his WRs are mocked in the first (maybe both top 10) along with his OT. His RB and C are mocked early 2nd. His G will likely go 3rd. And there are more that started last season that would go early, but simply aren't eligible to jump to the NFL yet. Waddle and Smith were two of the best WRs in the nation in separation. 

 

 

My thoughts exactly. To me, he is like a Ryan Tannehill, worthy of a Top 15 pick but he has to get great running game and OL support since he won't make many plays out of script, though his floor will be higher than Tannehill. Having said that, a run oriented team like the 49ers would be the perfect team to go to. 

 

Justin Fields needs seasoning, so I expect him to sit behind Matt Ryan and get used to NFL speed and defensive nuances for a year or two, IMO. Same with Lance. Jones with his higher floor might start off better with the right team but Fields and Lance with a higher ceiling will catch up if they sit and learn. Just my 

 

[Defjamz26]

Given how much they gave up to get to #3, it’s interesting that they’re not trying to trade Jimmy to try and get back some type of compensation for what they lost. 

[EastStreet]

2 hours ago, chad72 said:

 

My thoughts exactly. To me, he is like a Ryan Tannehill, worthy of a Top 15 pick but he has to get great running game and OL support since he won't make many plays out of script, though his floor will be higher than Tannehill. Having said that, a run oriented team like the 49ers would be the perfect team to go to. 

 

Justin Fields needs seasoning, so I expect him to sit behind Matt Ryan and get used to NFL speed and defensive nuances for a year or two, IMO. Same with Lance. Jones with his higher floor might start off better with the right team but Fields and Lance with a higher ceiling will catch up if they sit and learn. Just my 

 

I think Jone's arm talent is far more advanced than Tannehill, but I do agree, he'd do well if he were a good fit. The 49ers would be great. So would the Saints and even the Pats.

 

It's hard to predict "ready-now", as a lot depends on where they end up. Like I think Lawrence is ready now, but he might look pretty bad his first year at Jax. I do agree Fields needs to sit, and so does Lance. Lawrence, Wilson, and Jones could look really god early if the team around them is built right. I think Jones is simply OL and skill player dependent. He could go to the 49ers, and so long as they keep a good team around him, he could be the top QB out of this bunch forever. He could also bust though lol.