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Jonathan Taylor v.s Marlon Mack v.s Naheim Hines


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5 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Cook and Chubb say hello.

Sorry EASTSIDE Connection but Cook and Chubb don't even hold the jockstrap of a Taylor or Henry status and its not even close!  Cook or Chubb can't stay healthy for 16 games and neither project to be a workhorse back like Taylor or Henry!!!  I can't believe you put either Cook or Chubb in the same sentence as Taylor or Henry but I will guarantee that neither hear the echo's of either players "Hello"!  Cook and Chubb don't belong in the same sentence!

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On 3/24/2021 at 4:30 PM, JoeThornburg said:

If I'm calling personnel and plays I go with a bit more of a time share between Taylor and Mack because of how much abuse comes along with playing the position. Mack is also quite serviceable as a checkdown option out of the backfield. Would also be interesting to see them both in like a West Coast 212 formation.

 

Taylor is one of my favorite players right now. He reminds me more of Emmitt Smith than Henry, but your point is very well taken. Those three put together are going to be a handful. You're definitely right about feeding the hot hand, but those guys both still relatively fresh late in games could be absolutely lethal closers. Not to mention how just the mere presence on the field opens up options in the passing game both over the middle and on the outside. It's definitely going to make life easier for the younger pass catchers as well, especially with TY resigning.

I will say this from the bottom of my heart that the colts need to use JT as their primary back as his skill set is just top 2 at his position which is ELITE STATUS!!!  Most of the distraction is on Carson Wentz but I watched enough football over my time to know that this offense success rides on one player and that is Jonathon Taylor!  He has not only pro bowl status but ALL PRO STATUS and that is with Derrick Henry in the same conference!!!  Taylor is a generational type talent and we should not hinder his future on sharing carries with Marlon Mack who never showed this type of generational talent at the position.  I agree Mack is top 10 but Taylor is top 2!!! Let that sink in, TOP 2!!!

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15 minutes ago, BornHoosier said:

Sorry EASTSIDE Connection but Cook and Chubb don't even hold the jockstrap of a Taylor or Henry status and its not even close!  Cook or Chubb can't stay healthy for 16 games and neither project to be a workhorse back like Taylor or Henry!!!  I can't believe you put either Cook or Chubb in the same sentence as Taylor or Henry but I will guarantee that neither hear the echo's of either players "Hello"!  Cook and Chubb don't belong in the same sentence!

 

Cook and Chubb both have more YPG, same or better AVG, and more TDs. Jones was better than Taylor too in AVG and YPG. And Cook did it without the benefit of a top 10 OL.

 

Seems you have a penchant for overhyping lol...

 

I love Taylor, and he'll be very very good, but you can't simply ignore simple stats.

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Just now, EastStreet said:

 

Cook and Chubb both have more YPG, same or better AVG, and more TDs. Jones was better than Taylor too in AVG and YPG. And Cook did it without the benefit of a top 10 OL.

 

Seems you have a penchant for overhyping lol...

 

I love Taylor, and he'll be very very good, but you can't simply ignore simple stats.

Sorry EastStreet, try comparing stats from wk 11 to wk 17 and get back to me!  Yes, its top 2!

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8 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

Cook and Chubb both have more YPG, same or better AVG, and more TDs. Jones was better than Taylor too in AVG and YPG. And Cook did it without the benefit of a top 10 OL.

 

Seems you have a penchant for overhyping lol...

 

I love Taylor, and he'll be very very good, but you can't simply ignore simple stats.

I put Cook and Chubb on that second tier of talent right behind Henry and Taylor!  If you look at the numbers, Taylor is just as good as Henry and that is GAMECHANGER talent!

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1 minute ago, BornHoosier said:

Sorry EastStreet, try comparing stats from wk 11 to wk 17 and get back to me!  Yes, its top 2!

 

Well, if players were only graded on partial years and against bad rush Ds, you might have a point.

 

You're probably aware that his yearly average, is largely skewed by his 250+ yards vs Jax, one of the worst rush Ds in the league. 

He had a total of three 100+ yard games, all vs bottom 10 rush Ds.

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Just now, BornHoosier said:

I put Cook and Chubb on that second tier of talent right behind Henry and Taylor!  If you look at the numbers, Taylor is just as good as Henry and that is GAMECHANGER talent!

Henry and Taylor are very different. Sorry, Henry is on another level. Taylor still has a way to go. When Taylor puts up 100+ vs teams aren't bottom 10 in rush D, let's talk.

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1 minute ago, EastStreet said:

 

Well, if players were only graded on partial years and against bad rush Ds, you might have a point.

 

You're probably aware that his yearly average, is largely skewed by his 250+ yards vs Jax, one of the worst rush Ds in the league. 

He had a total of three 100+ yard games, all vs bottom 10 rush Ds.

Okay, did you not watch early on as his carries were just straight forward much like Trent Richardson but around wk 11 the light switch just flipped and he was a top 2 back since?  Did you not see the juke vs Jax at the line of scrimmage that netted a 20yd gain because he was able to use vision finally?  How about vs PIT which is standard for a bad day for a rb only to gain 80 yds in the first half??  Chubb and company only wish they had the talent of JT and you will see my friend.

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Just now, BornHoosier said:

Okay, did you not watch early on as his carries were just straight forward much like Trent Richardson but around wk 11 the light switch just flipped and he was a top 2 back since?  Did you not see the juke vs Jax at the line of scrimmage that netted a 20yd gain because he was able to use vision finally?  How about vs PIT which is standard for a bad day for a rb only to gain 80 yds in the first half??  Chubb and company only wish they had the talent of JT and you will see my friend.

Perhaps you should take a look at his game log and compare those teams to rush D ranks.

It may give you a more well rounded view of his peaks and valleys.

 

And when you compare him to other RBs, perhaps compare our OL rank to those other RBs. Jones, Chubb, and Taylor had top 10 OLs. Cook and Henry did not.

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10 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Henry and Taylor are very different. Sorry, Henry is on another level. Taylor still has a way to go. When Taylor puts up 100+ vs teams aren't bottom 10 in rush D, let's talk.

You realize that Henry is friends with Taylor on social media because he realizes this kid is a second coming of his skillset right?  I don't see Henry recognizing Chubb or any other Chumps on social media.   

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17 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Perhaps you should take a look at his game log and compare those teams to rush D ranks.

It may give you a more well rounded view of his peaks and valleys.

 

And when you compare him to other RBs, perhaps compare our OL rank to those other RBs. Jones, Chubb, and Taylor had top 10 OLs. Cook and Henry did not.

Forget stats, game log or D ranks and tell me what you see LIVE while watching him run East?  I've watched Chubb, Cook, Jones and even Kamara but none of those players have the speed and power that Taylor has which makes him top 2 for the position.  You must be going off the first 10 games and didn't watch the next 7, otherwise  you would see the same generational talent that I see.  

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16 hours ago, BornHoosier said:

You realize that Henry is friends with Taylor on social media because he realizes this kid is a second coming of his skillset right?  I don't see Henry recognizing Chubb or any other Chumps on social media.   

Henry recognizing anyone has little to do with anything.

 

Henry and Taylor are different type backs. Henry is a unicorn at 6-3 and 240ish. 

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16 hours ago, BornHoosier said:

Forget stats, game log or D ranks and tell me what you see LIVE while watching him run East?  I've watched Chubb, Cook, Jones and even Kamara but none of those players have the speed and power that Taylor has which makes him top 2 for the position.  You must be going off the first 10 games and didn't watch the next 7, otherwise  you would see the same generational talent that I see.  

I'm not going off his first 10 games. I watched every game last year and some more than once.

 

I just happened to look at all the info available, and try not go all "fan boy".

 

Personally I see a lot of talent. He should easily be top 5 this season so long as our OL doesn't take a step back. Also depends on the SoS and run Ds we face. If we played the 2020 Jags run D every game, that would be great... 

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On 5/12/2021 at 7:30 PM, EastStreet said:

I'm not going off his first 10 games. I watched every game last year and some more than once.

 

I just happened to look at all the info available, and try not go all "fan boy".

 

Personally I see a lot of talent. He should easily be top 5 this season so long as our OL doesn't take a step back. Also depends on the SoS and run Ds we face. If we played the 2020 Jags run D every game, that would be great... 

I agree with you, easily top 5 and should be top 3.  I think a lot depends on how much respect the D gives Carson Wentz, if they stack 8 men in the box I don't care if your D Henry you will be contained.  Funny you mentioned the Jags, how did that 1st game work out for us East?  Sometimes it comes down to the coaching staff committing to running the damn ball and just like the Jags game you can put the Steelers game in there as well.  

 

You had a whole entire season to digest the play of Jonathon Taylor and I don't understand how a Colts fan is not all "FAN BOY" at this moment East?  Your Football IQ is very high to know that the first 10 wks of JT career was very Trent Richardson like but if you know anything about the game and studied what coaches or even himself has said about his turnaround, you would see the ALL PRO talent that is about to be unleashed in front of you.  Of course, if Wentz is a bust and 10 man boxes are a steady diet then all bets are off. 

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11 hours ago, BornHoosier said:

I agree with you, easily top 5 and should be top 3.  I think a lot depends on how much respect the D gives Carson Wentz, if they stack 8 men in the box I don't care if your D Henry you will be contained.  Funny you mentioned the Jags, how did that 1st game work out for us East?  Sometimes it comes down to the coaching staff committing to running the damn ball and just like the Jags game you can put the Steelers game in there as well.  

 

You had a whole entire season to digest the play of Jonathon Taylor and I don't understand how a Colts fan is not all "FAN BOY" at this moment East?  Your Football IQ is very high to know that the first 10 wks of JT career was very Trent Richardson like but if you know anything about the game and studied what coaches or even himself has said about his turnaround, you would see the ALL PRO talent that is about to be unleashed in front of you.  Of course, if Wentz is a bust and 10 man boxes are a steady diet then all bets are off. 

I mentioned the Jags because like I've said, they were one of the worst run Ds in the league the last several years. I'm a fan of JT, but like I said, compare the run Ds to teams we played last year vs JT's totals. Also compare other RBs, and their OLs. Just being honest and factual poster.

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@BornHoosier, whilst the fanboy in me would LOVE to agree that he is on par with Henry.... that would be false.

NO ONE is on par with Henry, he is a freak of nature who just wont be denied, even with 8 people in the box alll game, i'd back Henry to go for over 100yds.

I do think Taylor has the potential to be a consistent top 5 RB in the league, but until we see otherwise you just have to remove Henry from the conversation, because he is just that good.

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On 5/12/2021 at 2:16 AM, EastStreet said:

Henry and Taylor are very different. Sorry, Henry is on another level. Taylor still has a way to go. When Taylor puts up 100+ vs teams aren't bottom 10 in rush D, let's talk.

Not OP and I’m not trying to argue he’s on Henry’s level (yet). But on putting up #s against weaker Ds that’s what all these backs do. Elite RBs are exceptional at not just taking advantage of a weaker run D they destroy it. Fwiw, check out Henry’s game log last year. He had 10 100+ yd games. 7 came against teams in the bottom 8 in rushing defense (DEN, MIN, HST, CIN, JAX, DET, HST). Other 3 were BLT and INDx2. His 3 200+ yd games came against HSTx2 and JAX. He outright struggled against teams like Pitt, CHI and BLT the 2nd time around. He’s also got more experience than JT (who I agree still has to prove himself more). 
 

I’m not in the JT top 2 camp (not out loud yet lol). But I don’t question the potential for it, in fact I think we absolutely saw it the last 6 games. That’s not an entire season agreed, but it can be :)

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On 5/12/2021 at 3:14 AM, BornHoosier said:

Taylor and Henry say how's the view from below and it will be okay because you will never reach this level!!!  2nd tier at best!

He's the 16 best RB in the league according to this site:

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-running-back-rankings-the-32-best-rbs-entering-the-2021-nfl-season

 

I would put him around 7 or 8th best RB in the league.  

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4 hours ago, Myles said:

He's the 16 best RB in the league according to this site:

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-running-back-rankings-the-32-best-rbs-entering-the-2021-nfl-season

 

I would put him around 7 or 8th best RB in the league.  

LOL, that sight should be ppp as in puff puff pass Myles.  I really hope none of you on this board believe this garbage article to have any sort of credibility for Pete sakes.  If you want to talk 7/8 that is your opinion and a believable one but C'mon 16th??  Tupac once said 16???? 

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6 hours ago, JTfan said:

Not OP and I’m not trying to argue he’s on Henry’s level (yet). But on putting up #s against weaker Ds that’s what all these backs do. Elite RBs are exceptional at not just taking advantage of a weaker run D they destroy it. Fwiw, check out Henry’s game log last year. He had 10 100+ yd games. 7 came against teams in the bottom 8 in rushing defense (DEN, MIN, HST, CIN, JAX, DET, HST). Other 3 were BLT and INDx2. His 3 200+ yd games came against HSTx2 and JAX. He outright struggled against teams like Pitt, CHI and BLT the 2nd time around. He’s also got more experience than JT (who I agree still has to prove himself more). 
 

I’m not in the JT top 2 camp (not out loud yet lol). But I don’t question the potential for it, in fact I think we absolutely saw it the last 6 games. That’s not an entire season agreed, but it can be :)

Thanks JTfan, I think its safe we can say this about ALL athletes and the numbers they put up.  Look at MLB for instance, all HR leaders put up most stats vs the Pirates, Tigers, Marlins to name a few and NFL is no different.  Least I can put you in the silence camp lol for top 2 until the rest of the league is put on notice in 2021, including our own fanbase.

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7 hours ago, Chucklez said:

@BornHoosier, whilst the fanboy in me would LOVE to agree that he is on par with Henry.... that would be false.

NO ONE is on par with Henry, he is a freak of nature who just wont be denied, even with 8 people in the box alll game, i'd back Henry to go for over 100yds.

I do think Taylor has the potential to be a consistent top 5 RB in the league, but until we see otherwise you just have to remove Henry from the conversation, because he is just that good.

Chuckles, get ready for your inner fanboy to be blown away come 2021 NFL season and in the meantime, I promise not to put Henry and JT in the same sentence HERE lol.  Unfortunately for East, I can't make that same promise about Chubb or Cook.

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16 minutes ago, BornHoosier said:

Chuckles, get ready for your inner fanboy to be blown away come 2021 NFL season and in the meantime, I promise not to put Henry and JT in the same sentence HERE lol.  Unfortunately for East, I can't make that same promise about Chubb or Cook.

I, in no way, think Taylor is like Richardson, but it does make me cautious about putting Taylor too high on the list of RB's after only 1 season.   I have him in the top 8 though.   Hopefully he rises this season.  

 

Richardsons rookie year:

950 yards rushing, 11 TD's, 51 receptions, 1 TD.

 

Taylor:

1169 yards rushing, 11 TD's, 36 receptions, 1 TD

 

 

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9 hours ago, JTfan said:

Not OP and I’m not trying to argue he’s on Henry’s level (yet). But on putting up #s against weaker Ds that’s what all these backs do. Elite RBs are exceptional at not just taking advantage of a weaker run D they destroy it. Fwiw, check out Henry’s game log last year. He had 10 100+ yd games. 7 came against teams in the bottom 8 in rushing defense (DEN, MIN, HST, CIN, JAX, DET, HST). Other 3 were BLT and INDx2. His 3 200+ yd games came against HSTx2 and JAX. He outright struggled against teams like Pitt, CHI and BLT the 2nd time around. He’s also got more experience than JT (who I agree still has to prove himself more). 
 

I’m not in the JT top 2 camp (not out loud yet lol). But I don’t question the potential for it, in fact I think we absolutely saw it the last 6 games. That’s not an entire season agreed, but it can be :)

It's only normal and logical for good backs to abuse bad run Ds. Henry had ten 100+ games, or 63% of the time (vs 3 games or 19%). And doing it twice vs the #2 run defense (Indy), and another top 10 (Balt), easily sets him apart from guys that just run well vs bad teams. One other thing to factor in is that Indy's OL is top 10 overall, and IIRC, top 5 in rushing grades, while TN's OL is pretty average.

 

I'm easily in the JT camp, he just has things to prove in year 2. He won't be overlooked this year by teams, and we play better run Ds. I'd like to see him pick up 100+ vs LAR and/or Seattle, both of whom are top 10 run Ds. And one thing I like better about JT (than Henry) is his receiving ability. JT needs to get 3-5 receiving opportunities per game IMO (with no reduction in targets to Hines).

 

One thing I don't want to see though is Indy run him to death like TN is running Henry. 378 carries for Henry is just asking for injury, or at minimum tread wear. Hoping Mack is back 100% and we have a great 1-2 punch.

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54 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

It's only normal and logical for good backs to abuse bad run Ds. Henry had ten 100+ games, or 63% of the time (vs 3 games or 19%). And doing it twice vs the #2 run defense (Indy), and another top 10 (Balt), easily sets him apart from guys that just run well vs bad teams. One other thing to factor in is that Indy's OL is top 10 overall, and IIRC, top 5 in rushing grades, while TN's OL is pretty average.

 

I'm easily in the JT camp, he just has things to prove in year 2. He won't be overlooked this year by teams, and we play better run Ds. I'd like to see him pick up 100+ vs LAR and/or Seattle, both of whom are top 10 run Ds. And one thing I like better about JT (than Henry) is his receiving ability. JT needs to get 3-5 receiving opportunities per game IMO (with no reduction in targets to Hines).

 

One thing I don't want to see though is Indy run him to death like TN is running Henry. 378 carries for Henry is just asking for injury, or at minimum tread wear. Hoping Mack is back 100% and we have a great 1-2 punch.

Great post!  I am fully expecting a 100yd performance vs LAR and Seattle and can't wait for the arrival of Jonathon Taylor on the NFL.

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8 minutes ago, BornHoosier said:

Great post!  I am fully expecting a 100yd performance vs LAR and Seattle and can't wait for the arrival of Jonathon Taylor on the NFL.

Tall order. Would love to see it.

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11 hours ago, BornHoosier said:

Chuckles, get ready for your inner fanboy to be blown away come 2021 NFL season and in the meantime, I promise not to put Henry and JT in the same sentence HERE lol.  Unfortunately for East, I can't make that same promise about Chubb or Cook.

Oh I’d deffo put him on par with Chubb and Cook, consider that he was a rookie, and no real offseason, he should only get better. 
 

In Cooks first 15 games (over 2 seasons) on 206 ATTs he had 969 yards rushing and 4 TDs

 

In Chubb’s first season (16 games) he had 192 ATTs for 996 yards and 8 TDs.

 

In Taylor’s rookie year, he played 15 games, 232 ATTs for 1,169 and 11TDs. 
 

You can only play who is in front of you East....

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  • 2 months later...
On 5/12/2021 at 12:51 AM, BornHoosier said:

I will say this from the bottom of my heart that the colts need to use JT as their primary back as his skill set is just top 2 at his position which is ELITE STATUS!!!  Most of the distraction is on Carson Wentz but I watched enough football over my time to know that this offense success rides on one player and that is Jonathon Taylor!  He has not only pro bowl status but ALL PRO STATUS and that is with Derrick Henry in the same conference!!!  Taylor is a generational type talent and we should not hinder his future on sharing carries with Marlon Mack who never showed this type of generational talent at the position.  I agree Mack is top 10 but Taylor is top 2!!! Let that sink in, TOP 2!!!

I think to be honest Mack is a better runner than JT. JT won't be in the league 5 years if he runs the way he has been as a 3 down back. Exciting as it is, he needs to learn some patience. As part of a 1-2 punch however, look out. I'm excited to see what these two can accomplish together this year.

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3 minutes ago, JoeThornburg said:

I think to be honest Mack is a better runner than JT. JT won't be in the league 5 years if he runs the way he has been as a 3 down back. Exciting as it is, he needs to learn some patience. As part of a 1-2 punch however, look out. I'm excited to see what these two can accomplish together this year.

Purely my opinion, but I thought JT's patience got a lot better in the second half. He was clearly impatient early, which is predictable for most rooks. Mack really learned zone patience but it took him a bit too. 

I agree though the Mack is likely the better zone scheme runner at this point. But JT will likely surpass him at some point. I'd actually like to see more power/man/gap running with JT.

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3 hours ago, Four2itus said:

Game theory ranking of RB rooms...........check where the Colts are slotted....

 

https://www.nfl.com/videos/game-theory-ranking-all-32-teams-by-their-rb-rooms

Fun video. I feel like you're trying to slice hairs on rankings unless you're focusing on stats but it looks to me like that was a mash up of what was last year and what we think this year will be. But, I have been saying for months since the Mack resigning that nobody has a better backfield outside of Cleveland (throws up in my mouth a little) than Indy.

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On 7/31/2021 at 9:50 PM, EastStreet said:

Purely my opinion, but I thought JT's patience got a lot better in the second half. He was clearly impatient early, which is predictable for most rooks. Mack really learned zone patience but it took him a bit too. 

I agree though the Mack is likely the better zone scheme runner at this point. But JT will likely surpass him at some point. I'd actually like to see more power/man/gap running with JT.

Yes Mack has amazing vision but if JT developed that vision he will be dominant...

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On 8/5/2021 at 5:59 PM, TimetobringDfence! said:

Yes Mack has amazing vision but if JT developed that vision he will be dominant...

I think JT is the better power runner. Both have speed, but I think JT has a better second gear. I also was uber impressed with JT's ability to catch the ball last year. I did not expect that at all given his usage at Wiscy.

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9 hours ago, EastStreet said:

I think JT is the better power runner. Both have speed, but I think JT has a better second gear. I also was uber impressed with JT's ability to catch the ball last year. I did not expect that at all given his usage at Wiscy.

Yeah he hardly ever dropped the ball. 97 percent catch rate. It wasnt a godly amount of targets but he did good. His raw effort to break or dodge a tackle for extra yards is where he won me over. Taylor will do anything on the ground where Hines is the guy that can dive for passes like a WR.

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22 hours ago, TimetobringDfence! said:

Yeah he hardly ever dropped the ball. 97 percent catch rate. It wasnt a godly amount of targets but he did good. His raw effort to break or dodge a tackle for extra yards is where he won me over. Taylor will do anything on the ground where Hines is the guy that can dive for passes like a WR.

Yup, the catch % was crazy good. I just didn't expect the coaching staff to trust him as much as he did in the passing game. And I agree, his effort after the catch was very good, even great for a guy who didn't catch much in college. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say he'll be WR-like (as least as much as Hines) sooner than later. He just looked very natural to me.

 

I love Hines, and really hope we keep him, but his value takes a hit if JT continues to get a lot of targets, and is successful in those targets. Gonna be interesting to see what Mack does too. Both are in contract years, so everyone should be pushing each other. Good problem to have. Betting Mack gets a little more involved in the passing game too.

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On 8/7/2021 at 10:41 PM, EastStreet said:

I think JT is the better power runner. Both have speed, but I think JT has a better second gear. I also was uber impressed with JT's ability to catch the ball last year. I did not expect that at all given his usage at Wiscy.

JT is better in the power, speed, and finesse department, and proved to be as valuable as a reciever. Mack makes up for it with extraordinary vision and awareness. It's like he does playaction gaps, he appears to be in one lane gets the defense to bite and makes his own space as good as anyone. Good news is JT improve the visual/awareness of his game as he seemed to be doing toward the end of last season. He has a very high ceiling, sad to think we might not be able to afford him when that time comes.

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7 hours ago, TimetobringDfence! said:

JT is better in the power, speed, and finesse department, and proved to be as valuable as a reciever. Mack makes up for it with extraordinary vision and awareness. It's like he does playaction gaps, he appears to be in one lane gets the defense to bite and makes his own space as good as anyone. Good news is JT improve the visual/awareness of his game as he seemed to be doing toward the end of last season. He has a very high ceiling, sad to think we might not be able to afford him when that time comes.

Agreed. I do think Mac has a bit more finesse though. JT all the way though with power and second gear. I'm not even going to worry about his next contract yet. The RB market is a strange one these days, and a lot of teams treat RBs differently. If he's durable and elite, I'm sure we'll try to keep him. If not, 2-3 years is a long time away. I'm anxious to compare JT and Mack side by side this year.

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On 5/12/2021 at 1:39 AM, BornHoosier said:

Sorry EASTSIDE Connection but Cook and Chubb don't even hold the jockstrap of a Taylor or Henry status and its not even close!  Cook or Chubb can't stay healthy for 16 games and neither project to be a workhorse back like Taylor or Henry!!!  I can't believe you put either Cook or Chubb in the same sentence as Taylor or Henry but I will guarantee that neither hear the echo's of either players "Hello"!  Cook and Chubb don't belong in the same sentence!

Taylor had the goods the second half of the season.   To say he is better than Cook or Chubb is premature.     Let's see what he does this year. 

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