Jonathan Taylor v.s Marlon Mack v.s Naheim Hines

[DiogoSales]

7 hours ago, MCurtis32 said:

your right about that. Hines running off the right tackle in the double tight end package just doesn't work. He is not big enough to run through a phone booth.

 

The worst part? He's probably the only one who can't do that, and we saw it too many

[BluesGirl]

On 3/26/2021 at 12:27 PM, EastStreet said:

Yup. I just hope Mack is ready to go early. I have a feeling we'll slow play CW the first half of the season, and will be running a ton.

Why do you say this? What reasons would there be to "slow play" Carson?   While I agree we will run a lot, it is because it's a huge strength of the team, and we need to run a lot. Thats how were built 

[EastStreet]

9 minutes ago, BluesGirl said:

Why do you say this? What reasons would there be to "slow play" Carson?   While I agree we will run a lot, it is because it's a huge strength of the team, and we need to run a lot. Thats how were built 

Many reasons...

• Our O is different from Philly's
• We'll be breaking in a new LT, or perhaps some musical chairs along the OL.
• It's been said by many that CW's mechanics went to hell last year, and were never to notch to begin with.
• It's been suggested that CW was a bit "broken" last year. Not saying a new home isn't enough to fix that, but the general attitude downfall at minimum suggests his psyche and confidence needs to be rebuilt. 
• Frank slow rolled JB and Rivers
• Frank is conservative so far in Indy
• Frank's rep is likely tied to CW's success long term.
• It's not uncommon for a team to start out a new QB, or one trying to resurrect a career, by going short pass and run heavy.

[BluesGirl]

20 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Many reasons...

• Our O is different from Philly's
• We'll be breaking in a new LT, or perhaps some musical chairs along the OL.
• It's been said by many that CW's mechanics went to hell last year, and were never to notch to begin with.
• It's been suggested that CW was a bit "broken" last year. Not saying a new home isn't enough to fix that, but the general attitude downfall at minimum suggests his psyche and confidence needs to be rebuilt. 
• Frank slow rolled JB and Rivers
• Frank is conservative so far in Indy
• Frank's rep is likely tied to CW's success long term.
• It's not uncommon for a team to start out a new QB, or one trying to resurrect a career, by going short pass and run heavy.

The bolded

1. By conservative you could say balanced

2. Short passes and heavy run is the strength of the team so that's what they should do 

3. Don't understand how you can say he slow rolled Rivers.    See #2 

[EastStreet]

3 minutes ago, BluesGirl said:

The bolded

1. By conservative you could say balanced

2. Short passes and heavy run is the strength of the team so that's what they should do 

3. Don't understand how you can say he slow rolled Rivers.    See #2 

We've had a very noticeable lack of deep attempts under Frank, which has allowed teams to cheat up, and focus on stopping the run and short passing lanes. 

 

Short passes and heavy run are only seen as strengths because we lack deeper attempts altogether. Our run game is heavy, but has not been overly dynamic. Our AVG is very average. Our attempts, yards, and yards per game isn't top 10 either, but at least better than our AVG.

 

The playbook was very much limited with Rivers early in the year aside from games we were playing from behind. His completed air yards per attempt (CAY/PA) was 3.6... His IntendedAY/PA was 7.2. Likely both career lows. And that's all scheme. He was top 10 in deep ball accuracy, so it's hard to say he was bad at throwing deep, or the team wasn't capable of throwing deep. We simply were just towards the bottom of the league in deep attempts. And that's Frank.

[life long]

On 3/26/2021 at 11:29 AM, DeepseaColt said:

I am ecstatic to have Mack and Taylor in the backfield! Having the Mack Truck and Tractor Taylor back definitely puts us on par with Cleveland's backfield and adding in Hines should put us ahead. 

I like the word play. First post? If so, well done and welcome to the forum.

[Mr.NotSoCreative]

[Kdeming1230]

On 3/25/2021 at 5:03 AM, coming on strong said:

It’s sad how everyone treats Mack after he got injured he is a 1000 yard back .  Carries should be split to keep guys fresh . No need for a work horse when you have three high level guys at the position. Shame on every one who thinks Mack is just a change of pace back .

 

On 3/26/2021 at 1:44 PM, Myles said:

In the discussion but I wouldn't put them over the Browns Chubb and Hunt.

Huh? Well discussion could be made if it was just Taylor and Hines or Taylor and Mack but now the colts have Taylor, Mack, and Hines. Easily the best backfield in football. 

[Kdeming1230]

On 4/2/2021 at 4:30 PM, BluesGirl said:

Why do you say this? What reasons would there be to "slow play" Carson?   While I agree we will run a lot, it is because it's a huge strength of the team, and we need to run a lot. Thats how were built 

Exactly there’s no reason to run Carson slow. Get him out there and let’s see what he can do behind this O-line minus a LT currently lol 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

After the draft Irsay talked about extensions. Said Braden and Darius will get done. When asked about Hines he said we will see. Have to see what the money looks like. I think it’s important we bring Hines back. We can’t lose a play maker like him. I guess waiting to see how he goes with Wentz is kind of important.

[Zoltan]

52 minutes ago, Wentzszn said:

After the draft Irsay talked about extensions. Said Braden and Darius will get done. When asked about Hines he said we will see. Have to see what the money looks like. I think it’s important we bring Hines back. We can’t lose a play maker like him. I guess waiting to see how he goes with Wentz is kind of important.

 

Honestly I think there is a good chance we let Hines walk or at least test FA. I think Ballard has a price set for the RBs and he won't be willing to pay Hines much

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

16 minutes ago, Zoltan said:

 

Honestly I think there is a good chance we let Hines walk or at least test FA. I think Ballard has a price set for the RBs and he won't be willing to pay Hines much

I won’t be surprised if they let him test free agency. I don’t really consider him the typical RB. He hasn’t missed a game or practice. He is durable. When you have a playmaker like him you hang on to him  Wentz is a different QB then rivers so I can understand waiting to see how he does with Wentz.  Hines improved so much as a runner last season. I will cry if we don’t bring him back. I imagine he will get something around what Ekeler got in LA. Maybe a little less because his numbers I don’t think are quite as good.

[Imgrandojji]

On 3/27/2021 at 8:53 AM, DiogoSales said:

Whats they can do: lot of Stuff

 

What they cannot do: Hines 3 & 1

Don't we have a fullback?  With a FB lead blocker you'd be surprised what a guy like Hines can pull off.

 

Hines won't overpower anybody but he's as good at the gap rush as anyone we've got.  With a FB and a bit of meat at TE, combined with our excellent line, we ougght to be able to force gaps that a little lightning dude like Hines can shoot through.  Basically the way the Evil Empire uses James White

[r a y s k i]

18 hours ago, Zoltan said:

 

Honestly I think there is a good chance we let Hines walk or at least test FA. I think Ballard has a price set for the RBs and he won't be willing to pay Hines much

After watching the last episode of "With the next pick" I think Hines will be resigned, because he isn't a running back, he is a weapon, and a unique one. I think he'll have a nice long career as a Colt. Don't know what the future holds for Mack, but I defo can't wait to see him on the field again

[EastStreet]

RBs are devalued these days. APBs if elite, can have better value than a RB2. Hines could be elite if use the right way IMO.

If we're going to let a guy like Mack, who we drafted, walk and test things.... I think we'd let Hines do the same.

And given that our new RB1 was very good at catching, the need for Hines isn't as big, so the leverage shifts a bit.

 

I love Hines, and hope we resign him. If Taylor stays healthy at RB1, and Campbell finally stays healthy at slot, I can see Ballard telling him to test the market. Hope he blows up, but that may mean he asks for too much lol. 

 

And I don't care what Reich says. Our RBs are not interchangeable, and Hines isn't a RB1 type of guy. He's best used as an APB.

[DiogoSales]

12 hours ago, Imgrandojji said:

Don't we have a fullback?  With a FB lead blocker you'd be surprised what a guy like Hines can pull off.

 

Hines won't overpower anybody but he's as good at the gap rush as anyone we've got.  With a FB and a bit of meat at TE, combined with our excellent line, we ougght to be able to force gaps that a little lightning dude like Hines can shoot through.  Basically the way the Evil Empire uses James White

 

It can be, I prefer the Titans way.. If we have a I-Formation with a FB in front and you just need to overpower people with burst and strengh for one yard, please ask JT to do it, no need to suffer...

[Zoltan]

3 hours ago, rayski said:

After watching the last episode of "With the next pick" I think Hines will be resigned, because he isn't a running back, he is a weapon, and a unique one. I think he'll have a nice long career as a Colt. Don't know what the future holds for Mack, but I defo can't wait to see him on the field again

I hope we resign him but I don't think so, I think EastStreet sums it up pretty well below. 

3 hours ago, EastStreet said:

RBs are devalued these days. APBs if elite, can have better value than a RB2. Hines could be elite if use the right way IMO.

If we're going to let a guy like Mack, who we drafted, walk and test things.... I think we'd let Hines do the same.

And given that our new RB1 was very good at catching, the need for Hines isn't as big, so the leverage shifts a bit.

 

I love Hines, and hope we resign him. If Taylor stays healthy at RB1, and Campbell finally stays healthy at slot, I can see Ballard telling him to test the market. Hope he blows up, but that may mean he asks for too much lol. 

 

And I don't care what Reich says. Our RBs are not interchangeable, and Hines isn't a RB1 type of guy. He's best used as an APB.

 

I agree with the devaluation and I'm thinking he will test the market and he will get a better offer from someone else possibly get the chance to be the number 1 back. I also believe we will take a RB in the mid rounds (4th/5th) next year to replace him.

[EastStreet]

23 minutes ago, Zoltan said:

I hope we resign him but I don't think so, I think EastStreet sums it up pretty well below. 

 

I agree with the devaluation and I'm thinking he will test the market and he will get a better offer from someone else possibly get the chance to be the number 1 back. I also believe we will take a RB in the mid rounds (4th/5th) next year to replace him.

 

Nah, Hines won't get an RB1 offer IMO. He's an APB. He only ran half way decent for us because we have a great OL. He can pull off RB2 + APB, but he's not an RB1 type. But he could get mid range RB1 money (mid-ish) if he has great APB/scrimmage numbers. 

 

Right now with this market, he's a luxury though IMO. It would take the right scheme that throws a lot to the RB and uses an APB creatively. 

[NewColtsFan]

14 hours ago, Imgrandojji said:

Don't we have a fullback?  With a FB lead blocker you'd be surprised what a guy like Hines can pull off.

 

Hines won't overpower anybody but he's as good at the gap rush as anyone we've got.  With a FB and a bit of meat at TE, combined with our excellent line, we ougght to be able to force gaps that a little lightning dude like Hines can shoot through.  Basically the way the Evil Empire uses James White

The fullback last year was Burton.   This year, it’s looking like the rookie, Granson. 

[EastStreet]

3 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

The fullback last year was Burton.   This year, it’s looking like the rookie, Granson. 

doubt he'll be used much as fullback. 

 

some bullets from his profile.

• Needs a favorable matchup to survive as point-of-attack blocker.
• Lack of play strength gets him tossed around in run game.
• Hands too wide into the block.

[NewColtsFan]

13 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

doubt he'll be used much as fullback. 

 

some bullets from his profile.

• Needs a favorable matchup to survive as point-of-attack blocker.
• Lack of play strength gets him tossed around in run game.
• Hands too wide into the block.

I could be wrong, but I think Frank and the scouts have already suggested the kid can block.   I’ll try to double check. 

[EastStreet]

10 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

I could be wrong, but I think Frank and the scouts have already suggested the kid can block.   I’ll try to double check. 

Maybe they did, but it's contrary to every review I've read. Not a lot of film on the guy, but what I saw, simply not much run blocking. 

[NewColtsFan]

5 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Maybe they did, but it's contrary to every review I've read. Not a lot of film on the guy, but what I saw, simply not much run blocking. 

I understand.   I’m just saying what I think the Colts have publicly said.   Whether it works out that way or not,  I don’t know.  
 

Guess we won’t know until camp at the earliest or maybe even pre-season.

 

If it’s not Granson, who do you think it would be?    

[EastStreet]

12 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

I understand.   I’m just saying what I think the Colts have publicly said.   Whether it works out that way or not,  I don’t know.  
 

Guess we won’t know until camp at the earliest or maybe even pre-season.

 

If it’s not Granson, who do you think it would be?    

Honestly I don't see us using a FB much at all. We didn't run much 2 back snaps. Maybe 1% IRRC. 

 

If we do need a blocker in the backfield with the RB, we have a few nasty blockers in Pittman and Pascal, not to mention both Doyle and MAC are good blockers. If I had to chose a lead blocker and RB combo, I'd probably prefer Pascal blocking for Taylor, or Taylor blocking for Mack or Hines. And in goal line, instead of a two back set in a tight formation, just spread 2 WRs wide, and two TEs midway. Ds can't afford to load when faced with that. 

 

I'd love more 2 back sets, but not for a lead block play call. Give me Taylor and Hines with one shooting up out of the backfield and going vert. 

[Imgrandojji]

On 5/6/2021 at 12:25 PM, NewColtsFan said:

I could be wrong, but I think Frank and the scouts have already suggested the kid can block.   I’ll try to double check. 

Well if you want to use a guy like Hines on the rush, you've got to use either a fullback or a 2 TE set, and as much as I like Mac, Mac and Doyle both grade out only somewhat above average as run blockers, and Doyle's been showing his age on the injury front recently so a specialist would be helpful.  If we don't have one, then we need to manage our expectations of little gap shooting RBs like Hines appropriately.

[EastStreet]

14 minutes ago, Imgrandojji said:

Well if you want to use a guy like Hines on the rush, you've got to use either a fullback or a 2 TE set, and as much as I like Mac, Mac and Doyle both grade out only somewhat above average as run blockers, and Doyle's been showing his age on the injury front recently so a specialist would be helpful.  If we don't have one, then we need to manage our expectations of little gap shooting RBs like Hines appropriately.

I think it's more about when to use Hines, or when not too. He has great AVGs on 1st and 2nd down, and doesn't need a FB. He just IMO shouldn't be used in 3rd or 4th and short.

 

And a FB is always nice in short situations regardless of RB, so IMO it's not really about Hines either.

 

IIRC MAC got really good run blocking grades. I remember October articles when he was grading out top of the NFL in run blocking. I don't have a PFF sub to see the end of year breakout, but I'm going to bet he ended the year at least top 10 in the category.

 

As far as FB is concerned in general, I think there are things you can do in short yardage situations that reduce the need for a FB... Now that we don't have Rivers, teams really can't key on things like they did last year anyway. And in short or goal line, we can line up wide, instead of tight like last year. Just lining up wide makes it easier, and you can still use a TE if you want.

[Imgrandojji]

I'm not sure I agree with you.  Wentz suffered badly for lack of protection last year and part of that was that he became predictable in his evasion patterns.  Defenders knew his tendencies and were there to jump on his usual escape routes.  The line didn't help but Wentz didn't help himself, as teams learned his habits and he couldn't adjust.

 

For the time being, since his escapability is compromised by bad habits, we need to treat him as an immobile quarterback and make sure we have all the weapons in our proverbial quiver we can to help keep him upright.  Especially because Wentz' confidence is at an all time low right now, a few early sacks could trigger a downward spiral.

 

 That includes both good blocking TEs and a FB, to maximize the run game.  We NEED the play action pass in order to keep defenses off balance and Wentz doesn't sell that as well as Rivers does so the run had better be a huge threat.  Looks like it is, but I'm all for crowding on every possible advantage.

 

I would expect that at the very least we'd have a FB on the roster for the first 6 weeks or so while we work on getting Wentz his mojo back.  Even if it's only to treat him as a 6th lineman and allow Wentz to run a clean pocket.

[EastStreet]

3 minutes ago, Imgrandojji said:

I'm not sure I agree with you.  Wentz suffered badly for lack of protection last year and part of that was that he became predictable in his evasion patterns.  Defenders knew his tendencies and were there to jump on his usual escape routes.

Nah. His problem was injury to his OL last year. His OL went from ranking 1st in 2019, to 19th in 2020 overall, but almost last in pass pro. 

 

Here's snippet.

 

"The Eagles’ offensive line went through the wringer this past season, as they were trotting out a new starting five up front seemingly every week due to injury. Those injuries all came after they lost projected starting left tackle Andre Dillard and right guard Brandon Brooks to injury before the season began. Eleven different offensive linemen played at least 50 snaps for Philadelphia this season. It’s going to be nearly impossible for any offensive line to lose all that talent and still produce at a high level."

 

3 minutes ago, Imgrandojji said:

 

For the time being we need to treat him as an immobile quarterback and make sure we have all the weapons in our proverbial quiver we can to help keep him upright.  Especially because Wentz' confidence is at an all time low right now, a few early sacks could trigger a downward spiral.

Nobody knows what Wentz's confidence level is. It's all talking head speculation. He's said he was frustrated with different things, but he's out of that situation right now. And nobody knows his frame of mind.

 

And it wasn't just the OL. Philly had the 2nd highest total man games lost last year, and also second highest AV lost. Sanders was out a quarter of the season. Their WR room was a mash unit all year too. Take a look at their snap counts game by game. The entire O was hit by a freight train.

3 minutes ago, Imgrandojji said:

 

 That includes both good blocking TEs and a FB, to maximize the run game.  We NEED the play action pass in order to keep defenses off balance and Wentz doesn't sell that as well as Rivers does so the run had better be a huge threat.  Looks like it is, but I'm all for crowding on every possible advantage.

 

I would expect that at the very least we'd have a FB on the roster for the first 6 weeks or so while we work on getting Wentz his mojo back.  Even if it's only to treat him as a 6th lineman and allow Wentz to run a clean pocket.

We didn't have a true FB last year with an immobile Rivers. Just not sure we'll have one this year with a QB that's a lot more mobile. 

[Pelt]

29 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

I think it's more about when to use Hines, or when not too. He has great AVGs on 1st and 2nd down, and doesn't need a FB. He just IMO shouldn't be used in 3rd or 4th and short.

Not an opinion, sir. That would be a fact.

[EastStreet]

1 minute ago, Pelt said:

Not an opinion, sir. That would be a fact.

Yup. Agree 1000%. Listening to Reich coachspeak about RBs being interchangeable is a bit silly and just defies basic logic and laws of science lol.

 

I have zero problem with Hines running between the Ts on 1st and 2nd though.

[Pelt]

2 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Yup. Agree 1000%. Listening to Reich coachspeak about RBs being interchangeable is a bit silly and just defies basic logic and laws of science lol.

 

I have zero problem with Hines running between the Ts on 1st and 2nd though.

I would've had zero problem with Hines on 3rd/4th and short if it had a decent success rate. But it didn't and you always knew he was getting the ball in those situations.

 

There was no point in even huddling up.

 

Everyone in the world already knew what was about to happen.

[EastStreet]

2 minutes ago, Pelt said:

I would've had zero problem with Hines on 3rd/4th and short if it had a decent success rate. But it didn't and you always knew he was getting the ball in those situations.

 

There was no point in even huddling up.

 

Everyone in the world already knew what was about to happen.

His size and profile simply isn't "power". To me, it's that simple.

 

I always hated seeing us in a tight bunch with him in the backfield on short yardage plays. As much as I'm not of fan of QB package plays, I would have preferred JB sneaking it lol. 

 

I do think if they were aligned wide, he'd have been more successful. 

 

[Imgrandojji]

1 hour ago, EastStreet said:

His size and profile simply isn't "power". To me, it's that simple.

 

I always hated seeing us in a tight bunch with him in the backfield on short yardage plays. As much as I'm not of fan of QB package plays, I would have preferred JB sneaking it lol. 

 

I do think if they were aligned wide, he'd have been more successful. 

 

it's better than using Hines in that ridiculous incredibly-slowly-developing checkdown play that Reich used several times with Brissett in center and the defenders always got to Hines before the ball did

 

[EastStreet]

9 minutes ago, Imgrandojji said:

it's better than using Hines in that ridiculous incredibly-slowly-developing checkdown play that Reich used several times with Brissett in center and the defenders always got to Hines before the ball did

 

Yup. Just wasn't a fan of short yardage and goal line calls last year. 

I know we were limited by having Rivers, and then again predictable when JB was in, but gotta think we could have done better. 

 

[Imgrandojji]

11 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Yup. Just wasn't a fan of short yardage and goal line calls last year. 

I know we were limited by having Rivers, and then again predictable when JB was in, but gotta think we could have done better. 

 

Reich seems to have a problem with playing predictable football.  IMHO he lacks that flair for tactics that might propel him to the next level.  Think of him as a solid conventional coach, with a bit too much emphasis on "conventional."  He'll cover the basics, but he won't step outside them when you might want/need him to.

[EastStreet]

1 hour ago, Imgrandojji said:

Reich seems to have a problem with playing predictable football.  IMHO he lacks that flair for tactics that might propel him to the next level.  Think of him as a solid conventional coach, with a bit too much emphasis on "conventional."  He'll cover the basics, but he won't step outside them when you might want/need him to.

Hoping he opens things up once he becomes comfortable again with Wentz.

[Nickster]

On 3/24/2021 at 3:30 PM, JoeThornburg said:

If I'm calling personnel and plays I go with a bit more of a time share between Taylor and Mack because of how much abuse comes along with playing the position. Mack is also quite serviceable as a checkdown option out of the backfield. Would also be interesting to see them both in like a West Coast 212 formation.

 

Taylor is one of my favorite players right now. He reminds me more of Emmitt Smith than Henry, but your point is very well taken. Those three put together are going 8to be a handful. You're definitely right about feeding the hot hand, but those guys both still relatively fresh late in games could be absolutely lethal closers. Not to mention how just the mere presence on the field opens up options in the passing game both over the middle and on the outside. It's definitely going to make life easier for the younger pass catchers as well, especially with TY resigning.

I’d say more like the love child of Emmitt and Earl Campbell.

[2006Coltsbestever]

If Mack comes back 100% or close, we have 3 very good RB's, Taylor is on the verge of being great IMO.

[BornHoosier]

I don't care about the love affair with Mack, this is Taylors OFFENSE and NOBODY else!!!  Most don't get it that Jonathon Taylor has numbers that only compare to the #1 rb in the NFL and that is Derrick Henry!!! Taylor is a generational RB much like DH so please acknowledge this and let the MACK love affair go as any other generational back needs their touches!!!  JT has top 2 potential at his position and we can't let a lack of touches hinder his efficiency for Mack!  We must decide and its a no brainer!!!

[EastStreet]

13 minutes ago, BornHoosier said:

I don't care about the love affair with Mack, this is Taylors OFFENSE and NOBODY else!!!  Most don't get it that Jonathon Taylor has numbers that only compare to the #1 rb in the NFL and that is Derrick Henry!!! Taylor is a generational RB much like DH so please acknowledge this and let the MACK love affair go as any other generational back needs their touches!!!  JT has top 2 potential at his position and we can't let a lack of touches hinder his efficiency for Mack!  We must decide and its a no brainer!!!

Cook and Chubb say hello.