Sammy Watkins to visit the Colts

[JediXMan]

Watkins hearing the TY news

[richard pallo]

2 minutes ago, JediXMan said:

Yeah maybe bringing Watkins over moved the stalemate. Reportedly the Ravens offered more but WRs hardly get used in that system it’s mainly RBs and TEs so I think he made the right choice.

Hard to believe they didn’t think they were close with TY.  Yet they still brought in Watkins.  Ballard actually going so far as to bring him in for a visit to get TY to sign.  Seems unBallard like.  I wonder if he is seriously considering him as well.

[Moosejawcolt]

4 hours ago, shasta519 said:

 

Right. I think Ballard has hit some HRs in the draft...but if I was to play devil's advocate...I would say his reputation in the draft is largely built off of those first 3 picks of that 2018 draft (and his propensity to trade back). And those three picks included arguably the safest prospect in a very long time (Nelson).

 

Prior to (and after) those 3 picks...it's very much a mixed bag. Certainly not awful like his predecessor...but some good and some bad. Lots of non-premium positions as well.

 

Specifically, so far the 2019 draft has been objectively bad so far. 

 

And to your point, outside of the Leonard pick, the defensive players drafted on Day 2 have been more misses than hits. And even Blackmon and Oke are not proven commodities yet.

 

One thing I have noticed, in regards to the perception of many Colts fans when it comes to Ballard's draft picks...is that if a player doesn't immediately play well...he is either unlucky (because he's hurt) or he just takes time to develop...but he is still a good player.  Meanwhile, if a player does play well right off the bat (or at least not bad)...he's immediately seen as a great player even if he hasn't proven it. Basically, they are all good-great players.

 

 

 

 

Exactly. I think he is over rated as a GM. Those 2nd round picks are suppose to be the foundation that this defense is built on. His best player on defence is Buckner and that was the result of a trade

[danlhart87]

Just now, Moosejawcolt said:

Exactly. I think he is over rated as a GM. Those 2nd round picks are suppose to be the foundation that this defense is built on. His best player on defence is Buckner and that was the result of a trade

[Moosejawcolt]

17 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

Oh, boy....   here we go again.   Trust me, after I answer this here, you’ll ask it again in some other discussion.   
 

Hooker:  Drafted where he was supposed to be.   Two devastating injuries have basically wiped out his career. 
 

Wilson:  was the youngest player in the draft, he was drafted where he should’ve been.  He never matured. 
 

Basham:  drafted fir Pagano’s 3-4 defense.  It was hoped he’d make the transition to a 4-3, but he didn’t.  Has done better in the Jets 3-4.

 

Turay:  had a decent rookie year.  Injury wiped out most of 19 and 20.  But he was on the field for key snaps in Dec of 20.  So the staff still sees potential. 
 

Lewis:  Ballard says DL’s often need 2-3 years  to figure out the NFL game.  This was year 3, and Lewis played more snaps and he played better.  And, if you didn’t notice,  we didn’t bring back Autry.  Odds are Lewis will get many (most?) of those snaps. 
 

Banogu:  The lost raw, most in need of coaching of our DL’s.  His 2020 got wiped out by Covid.   This is year 3 for him, so he’s going to have to show much more. 
 

Ya-Sin:  In his rookie year, Rock had a terrible first half of his season, but in the second half, he was the highest ranked rookie corner in the entire NFL.   A half-season of very good.  I have no idea what happened to him, but if he was good before, he should be able to be good again. 
 

The jury is still out on most of these players.  It’s an impatient fan base that makes final judgements way too quickly that are restless. 
 

Okay. So answer me this question. Which one of those picks, besides Hooker ,and we didnt pick up his option, is a full time starter on this or any other team. I include other teams as those that run a 3-4. None of his 2nd or 3rd rounders, with exception of Leonard, have proven to be very good to good players.  I am not a Ballard hater but everyone calls him a genius for Leonard, but continue to make excuses for his other high defensive picks.  Your maybe  right and his picks on defense may mature. From what I have seen, they are all replaceable . You say we are impatient. Yea u r probably right. However Sin, Okereke and Banagou have regressed and not improved. PS. U take Buckner out of this defence and this defense is absolutley horrible. That's how I assess his drafting on D.

[Moosejawcolt]

7 minutes ago, danlhart87 said:

Oh come on...be nice lol. 

[Indyfan4life]

29 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Exactly. I think he is over rated as a GM. Those 2nd round picks are suppose to be the foundation that this defense is built on. His best player on defence is Buckner and that was the result of a trade

Oh good lord. 

[MPStack]

19 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Oh come on...be nice lol. 

@Moosejawcolt, you have to realize that Ballard walks on water with a lot of this fan base. He can do know wrong! 
 

 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

37 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Exactly. I think he is over rated as a GM. Those 2nd round picks are suppose to be the foundation that this defense is built on. His best player on defence is Buckner and that was the result of a trade

Is Leonard chopped liver. Lol

[NewColtsFan]

32 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Okay. So answer me this question. Which one of those picks, besides Hooker ,and we didnt pick up his option, is a full time starter on this or any other team. I include other teams as those that run a 3-4. None of his 2nd or 3rd rounders, with exception of Leonard, have proven to be very good to good players.  I am not a Ballard hater but everyone calls him a genius for Leonard, but continue to make excuses for his other high defensive picks.  Your maybe  right and his picks on defense may mature. From what I have seen, they are all replaceable . You say we are impatient. Yea u r probably right. However Sin, Okereke and Banagou have regressed and not improved. PS. U take Buckner out of this defence and this defense is absolutley horrible. That's how I assess his drafting on D.

Well...   beyond Leonard, and Okereke, who is also a full time starter,  I think we will see guys like Turay and Lewis play more significant snaps.  It’s possible Lewis will replace Autry, though we will have to wait 5 months in that one.  
 

Ya-sin may return to starter.  I think that’s the hope.   I think we will see will see Banogu play more snaps, again that’s the hope.  But a year hopefully better than the start of his rookie year. 

 

By the way, take a Buckner level player out of any defense and it’s not as good.   I think SF regressed without him.   
 

I think, like most fans, you’re too caught up in what players ARE.  Coaches and personnel people are trying to project what players MIGHT BE, MIGHT BECOME.    There’s an important difference. 

[Moosejawcolt]

5 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

Well...   beyond Leonard, and Okereke, who is also a full time starter,  I think we will see guys like Turay and Lewis play more significant snaps.  It’s possible Lewis will replace Autry, though we will have to wait 5 months in that one.  
 

Ya-sin may return to starter.  I think that’s the hope.   I think we will see will see Banogu play more snaps, again that’s the hope.  But a year hopefully better than the start of his rookie year. 

 

By the way, take a Buckner level player out of any defense and it’s not as good.   I think SF regressed without him.   
 

I think, like most fans, you’re too caught up in what players ARE.  Coaches and personnel people are trying to project what players MIGHT BE, MIGHT BECOME.    There’s an important difference. 

Yes Okereke is a starter but very average if that. Sin was benched on occassion. I am just saying that for a GM that says building thru the draft is how u build a team. I dont see the future talent of defensive players on this roster.

19 minutes ago, Wentzszn said:

Is Leonard chopped liver. Lol

He is not nearly as valuable as Buckner

[Moosejawcolt]

27 minutes ago, MPStack said:

@Moosejawcolt, you have to realize that Ballard walks on water with a lot of this fan base. He can do know wrong! 
 

 

Not with me lol 

[JoeThornburg]

 I honestly don't believe at this point that anyone should think Watkins will sign with Indy. I could be wrong. The meeting happened today and then this afternoon we get news that Hilton is resigning for $8M in guaranteed money over 1 year. My opinion is that whatever happened in that room led to the phone call to Hilton's camp.

[Indyfan4life]

3 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Yes Okereke is a starter but very average if that. Sin was benched on occassion. I am just saying that for a GM that says building thru the draft is how u build a team. I dont see the future talent of defensive players on this roster.

He is not nearly as valuable as Buckner

And I guarantee the second Leonard is off the field due to injury or leaving this team, it would be felt immediately. You’re purposely saying things like this because of your dislike for Ballard, and it’s a little insane. Every team in the NFL would love to have Leonard on their team. 

[krunk]

I'm definitely hoping we take at least one WR with a high draft pick 1-3 rounds somewhere in there. 

[BlueCollarColts]

If we are getting on Ballard for his drafting, can someone point me to a good GM in this league? Pretty sure a lot of people here hold Ballard's drafting to a standard literally no one has ever lived up to.

[NewColtsFan]

13 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Yes Okereke is a starter but very average if that. Sin was benched on occassion. I am just saying that for a GM that says building thru the draft is how u build a team. I dont see the future talent of defensive players on this roster.

He is not nearly as valuable as Buckner

Yes, Leonard is nearly as valuable.   So says Chris Ballard.   He has said the 3-tech is the most important position in his defense, and the WILL is the second most.   
 

As for Okereke and Ya-sin, the expectation is they will be much improved again this year.  They’ve both been good before, they should be able to be good again. 

[BlueCollarColts]

1 minute ago, krunk said:

I'm definitely hoping we take at least one WR with a high draft pick 1-3 rounds somewhere in there. 

Depends on if we trade back and what we get, right now we only have two picks in the first three rounds and both LT and DE are way bigger needs than WR for me.

 

I actually feel fine with our WR room, Pittman is a good player who can develop into a potentially great player, Hilton is a solid WR who could see a career revival with Wentz who can push the ball downfield more than Rivers, and Campbell hasn't been able to stay healthy but he's uber talented. If he can't stay on the field again, Pascal is a reliable 600-700 yard guy so the depth is there.

[richard pallo]

5 minutes ago, JoeThornburg said:

 I honestly don't believe at this point that anyone should think Watkins will sign with Indy. I could be wrong. The meeting happened today and then this afternoon we get news that Hilton is resigning for $8M in guaranteed money over 1 year. My opinion is that whatever happened in that room led to the phone call to Hilton's camp.

My opinion is TY new well in advance like everyone else that Watkins will be visiting today.   He and his agents just came to the conclusion to accept Ballard’s offer today and sign.  He turned down a higher offer elsewhere.  This is where he wanted to play all along.  Both sides new it.  Ballard brought Watkins in because he is considering adding him to the team.

[krunk]

3 minutes ago, BlueCollarColts said:

Depends on if we trade back and what we get, right now we only have two picks in the first three rounds and both LT and DE are way bigger needs than WR for me.

 

I actually feel fine with our WR room, Pittman is a good player who can develop into a potentially great player, Hilton is a solid WR who could see a career revival with Wentz who can push the ball downfield more than Rivers, and Campbell hasn't been able to stay healthy but he's uber talented. If he can't stay on the field again, Pascal is a reliable 600-700 yard guy so the depth is there.

TY is on a one year deal.  This feels like when Reggie was here to mentor the young guys.  I'd like to see one more young guy added to the mix who can be a matchup problem if possible.  I feel decent about Patmon becoming something, but not a certainty.

[NewColtsFan]

2 minutes ago, krunk said:

TY is on a one year deal.  This feels like when Reggie was here to mentor the young guys.  I'd like to see one more young guy added to the mix who can be a matchup problem if possible.  I feel decent about Patmon becoming something, but not a certainty.

Im with you.

 

I think our WR room looks like this...

 

Pittman, Campbell, Hilton, Pascal as 1, 2, 3, 4.

Then Patmon as 5,  and a mid-round pick as WR6.    
 

I think that’s a much improved WR room. 

[WoolMagnet]

50 minutes ago, Indyfan4life said:

Oh good lord. 

Even the lord cant help with that one.  Ha

[WoolMagnet]

2 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

Im with you.

 

I think our WR room looks like this...

 

Pittman, Campbell, Hilton, Pascal as 1, 2, 3, 4.

Then Patmon as 5,  and a mid-round pick as WR6.    
 

I think that’s a much improved WR room. 

Haha.

You said “much improved”, but all the names were here last year.

  I just found that funny....... carry on.

[danlhart87]

22 minutes ago, krunk said:

I'm definitely hoping we take at least one WR with a high draft pick 1-3 rounds somewhere in there. 

[NewColtsFan]

1 hour ago, WoolMagnet said:

Haha.

You said “much improved”, but all the names were here last year.

  I just found that funny....... carry on.

Huh?

 

is it unreasonable to think that Pittman, Campbell, Patmon and a drafted WR wouldn’t  be better in 21 than they were in 20?

 

Why would anyone think they wouldn’t be better? 

[Stephen]

52 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

Huh?

 

is it unreasonable to think that Pittman, Campbell, Patmon and a drafted WR wouldn’t  be better in 21 than they were in 20?

 

Why would anyone think they wouldn’t be better? 

They should  be better cwuth wentz pushing  ball down field  more

[Moosejawcolt]

3 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

Yes, Leonard is nearly as valuable.   So says Chris Ballard.   He has said the 3-tech is the most important position in his defense, and the WILL is the second most.   
 

As for Okereke and Ya-sin, the expectation is they will be much improved again this year.  They’ve both been good before, they should be able to be good again. 

Well if Chris says so it must be right.  I disagree thats why he spent a #13 overall pick on Buckner. The value of the position.Do u really think that if he had Buckner, he would have wasted a #13 overall pick on a linebacker? One thing about this defence. U can get linebackers later on as they r usually undersized. Just my thoughts.

3 hours ago, Indyfan4life said:

And I guarantee the second Leonard is off the field due to injury or leaving this team, it would be felt immediately. You’re purposely saying things like this because of your dislike for Ballard, and it’s a little insane. Every team in the NFL would love to have Leonard on their team. 

Not at all. Agree to disagree

[NewColtsFan]

19 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Well if Chris says so it must be right.  I disagree thats why he spent a #13 overall pick on Buckner. The value of the position.Do u really think that if he had Buckner, he would have wasted a #13 overall pick on a linebacker? One thing about this defence. U can get linebackers later on as they r usually undersized. Just my thoughts.

Not at all. Agree to disagree

Huh?

 

Im not sure I understood a single sentence you wrote.    Not hard to disagree with all of it. 
 

It was, at best, argumentative,  and more to the point, it was clearly irrational.   A massive head scratcher.   Disagree, indeed. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

4 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Exactly. I think he is over rated as a GM. Those 2nd round picks are suppose to be the foundation that this defense is built on. His best player on defence is Buckner and that was the result of a trade

He has had many of good to great moves. Of course the drafting of Nelson and Leonard was genius but leaving those out, drafting Smith, Mack, and JT was solid and the Buckner trade was great. If Wentz pans out than Ballard will look really good. It is unfortunate that Luck retired which threw him a major curveball, so he has had to deal with that as well. If Luck doesn't retire, we would be a top 5 team in the league IMO.

[Moosejawcolt]

14 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

He has had many of good to great moves. Of course the drafting of Nelson and Leonard was genius but leaving those out, drafting Smith, Mack, and JT was solid and the Buckner trade was great. If Wentz pans out than Ballard will look really good. It is unfortunate that Luck retired which threw him a major curveball, so he has had to deal with that as well. If Luck doesn't retire, we would be a top 5 team in the league IMO.

Dracting Nelson does not make him a genius.  He was probably the best player in the draft. Leonard was a find. I give more credit to Reich for Wentz. I bet he pounded the table for him and said he could resurrect him.  Yes Ballard has had some hits. My point is that his drafting of high defensive talent in the draft has not been successful.

[2006Coltsbestever]

11 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Dracting Nelson does not make him a genius.  He was probably the best player in the draft. Leonard was a find. I give more credit to Reich for Wentz. I bet he pounded the table for him and said he could resurrect him.  Yes Ballard has had some hits. My point is that his drafting of high defensive talent in the draft has not been successful.

Looking back at it now, Nelson may be the best player in that draft (hindsight is wonderful) and Ballard was smart enough to pick him at #6. Hardly no team has ever took an OG at #6 in the draft so yes that makes him a genius. 5 other teams passed on Nelson including Denver who took Chubb at #5. Why did Denver pass on Nelson? The Browns took Denzel Ward at #4 as well. Honestly the best talent in that draft was Barkley IMO who went #2, best QB has been Mayfield who did go #1.

[Moosejawcolt]

38 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

Huh?

 

Im not sure I understood a single sentence you wrote.    Not hard to disagree with all of it. 
 

It was, at best, argumentative,  and more to the point, it was clearly irrational.   A massive head scratcher.   Disagree, indeed. 

I woukd argue that the middle linebacker  is the most important position in this defence. Ala urlacher and wagner of Seattle. 

Just now, Moosejawcolt said:

I woukd argue that the middle linebacker  is the most important position in this defence. Ala urlacher and wagner of Seattle. 

Sorry, I mean most important linebacker position 

[Moosejawcolt]

3 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Looking back at it now, Nelson may be the best player in that draft (hindsight is wonderful) and Ballard was smart enough to pick him at #6. Hardly no team has ever took an OG at #6 in the draft so yes that makes him a genius. 5 other teams passed on Nelson including Denver who took Chubb at #5. Why did Denver pass on Nelson? The Browns took Denzel Ward at #4 as well. Honestly the best talent in that draft was Barkley IMO who went #2, best QB has been Mayfield who did go #1.

Teams passed on Nelson because they dont value a guard at #6. The reasoning. Now that Nelson is 3 time all pro, he is going to demand 20 million or more. Lots of teams refuse to pay that. Let me ask u a hypothetical question. If Nelson was put on the market today. What do u think they would receive in compensation? Also consider he is due a monster contract. I will wait for your answer.

[Moosejawcolt]

8 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Looking back at it now, Nelson may be the best player in that draft (hindsight is wonderful) and Ballard was smart enough to pick him at #6. Hardly no team has ever took an OG at #6 in the draft so yes that makes him a genius. 5 other teams passed on Nelson including Denver who took Chubb at #5. Why did Denver pass on Nelson? The Browns took Denzel Ward at #4 as well. Honestly the best talent in that draft was Barkley IMO who went #2, best QB has been Mayfield who did go #1.

PS. Chubb was looking lights out till he blew out his knee. If Chubb would have continued on the pace he was on. He would have  easily passed  Nelson in value.

[Four2itus]

How is it that nearly every thread brings Ballards ability as a GM into it. Just for clarity, those of you who are not in Ballards camp?

 

We totally know who you are. Your point has been cemented.

 

Furthermore, not my support........nor your dissent will change not one iota about Ballards staying or going. So....?

[ojsglove]

I will never forget the 20 million JB contract.

[2006Coltsbestever]

15 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Teams passed on Nelson because they dont value a guard at #6. The reasoning. Now that Nelson is 3 time all pro, he is going to demand 20 million or more. Lots of teams refuse to pay that. Let me ask u a hypothetical question. If Nelson was put on the market today. What do u think they would receive in compensation? Also consider he is due a monster contract. I will wait for your answer.

Regarding if Nelson was on the market we would get a lot in return, he is the best at his position and would make an O.Line instantly much better. If picking an OG was such a gamble and most GM's don't do that then why didn't Ballard go against it himself and draft defense or WR? He didn't because he knew Nelson would be great which to me is very smart.

[2006Coltsbestever]

12 minutes ago, ojsglove said:

I will never forget the 20 million JB contract.

It really didn't hurt the team though and JB's contract has nothing to do how we are handling the Cap this year. He didn't play up to his contract but to me it isn't a factor now. He still wasn't a bad QB, average QB, great backup. I have seen much worse here as I have mentioned many times.

[WoolMagnet]

2 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

Huh?

 

is it unreasonable to think that Pittman, Campbell, Patmon and a drafted WR wouldn’t  be better in 21 than they were in 20?

 

Why would anyone think they wouldn’t be better? 

I wasnt disagreeing, i found humor when i thought “wait, those are kinda the same guys.”

 

  But i agree... 

1. Pittman was a different pkayer from start to end of season.  I expect further impact and improvement.

2.A HEALTHY (hopefully) Campbell could be HUGE.  We saw glimpses of a real weapon.

3.Patmon hopefully takes a jump.  I like seeing him buddy up with Pittman.  I think they can push each other.

4.Pascal is one of the players i seem to really pull for.  I see him as an overachiever that has make some plays for us at key moments. I think his route running has improved too. He’s stepped in and up when it was his time.

5. TY is TY and hopefully Wentz can help open him up to what he does best.  Production from Pittman and Campbell should give TY more looks too.

 

  I would love a true #1 with some size and skills.  However, i do like this group and their versatility.  I think an upgrade at “playmaker” TE nay be more impactful than a “bigger” WR.

 

[WoolMagnet]

31 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Teams passed on Nelson because they dont value a guard at #6. The reasoning. Now that Nelson is 3 time all pro, he is going to demand 20 million or more. Lots of teams refuse to pay that. Let me ask u a hypothetical question. If Nelson was put on the market today. What do u think they would receive in compensation? Also consider he is due a monster contract. I will wait for your answer.

I just dont see much logic in that whole assertion.

 

And the “i will wait for your answer” is a bit much, imo.

 

We can all agree to disagree sometimes.  Its just “armchair GM” stuff anyway.