ballard vs grigson

[shasta519]

5 hours ago, joecolts said:

As someone else mentioned, Grigson had Luck.  In addition, he had a solid group handed off to him from the Polian area and had an opportunity to win multiple Super Bowls because of an outstanding QB.  What did he do with it?  He destroyed Luck's body by not supporting him with a line that could protect him.  What's Ballard done?  Built a strong, full roster that is now in position to win without a one man show like Luck was asked to be.  Ballard is 1000% better...just one man's opinion.

A solid group from the Polian era? Grigson inherited a 2-win team with aging expensive players.
 

Clark, Addai and Brackett were old and had to be cut, which resulted in dead cap hits.

 

Manning’s dead cap hit was huge.

 

Freeney had the highest cap hit of any player in the NFL that season...and gave them a handful of sacks.

 

1/3 of his salary cap was dead cap hits from Polian contracts. Contrast to the cap situation that Ballard inherited.
 

Other than AC and Bethea, the cupboard was bare. Grigs had to re-sign Mathis and Wayne...a gamble considering the age of both players and the type of moves that most rebuilding teams do not do.

 

He earned every bit of that Exec of the Year award. 

[crazycolt1]

Wow, another I am bored off season thread that means exactly zero. 

[shasta519]

3 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

One also had a 100% healthy Andrew Luck for 3 years of his career in which the Colts were 33-15. The W/L records for both are deceiving.

It’s really not though. Luck was great, but it’s not like he was Mahomes setting the league on fire. He never had a QBR above 66 during those (3) seasons.

And his best season (prior to 2018) was actually 2016...and the Colts went 8-8.

 

It’s a team sport. Watson was a top 3-5 QB this past season and his team won 4 games. Stafford has a losing record in his career. Great QB play is the most important thing...but it doesn’t win 11 games on its own.

So I disagree that Luck was dragging those teams to 11-win seasons. And I know that’s not what you said...but I see this argument quite often. And it’s disingenuous at best. 

 

They were good teams. They beat other really good teams as well, including in the playoffs where Luck was less than stellar (to put it politely). 

 

And to be fair, Ballard’s only playoff win (in 4 seasons as GM) was with Luck at QB. So it’s not like he has truly separated himself in that regard (at least from a playoff standpoint). If the Colts don’t win a playoff game this season, that will be his 5th season (the same number Grigson had).

[shasta519]

Ballard is a better talent evaluator (at least at most positions). He’s clearly the smarter and better GM in that regard (how much better is subjective but it’s a noticeable amount). I also think he has had far more resources too though.
 

But I think the argument you are making is how much does that matter without the results? And when does it become about the results? 

But if you are looking for an objective comparison between the two...you likely won’t find it on a Colts discussion forum. It’s not a valid comp to make anyways imo...but it doesn’t matter. The way so many people vilify Grigs and deify Ballard now has made it too polarizing of a topic. And for so many...Grigs is now the villain and Ballard the hero no matter what happens.

 

Everyone is entitled their own opinion though. I just don’t think Ballard is as great as most think and that Grigs was as bad as most think. Or to put it another way...Ballard gets too much credit and Grigs not enough.

 

And anyways, I choose to look back on the Grigs/Luck era fondly. It was a very exciting time to be a Colts fans...playoff football, active FA periods, SB hype. Luck getting hurt when he did was a very unfortunate turn of events, but % happens.

 

 

 

 

[Jeremy Waldon]

9 hours ago, danlhart87 said:

He's a much better talent evaluator. Like it was said before a generational talent like Luck fell into Grigsons lap which altered his record. 

And Grigson failed to protect that talent and thus the record Ballard has been dealt. I am very hopeful the move made at QB is this teams step over the last hurdle and put us on the straight away to playoffs yearly and a bowl run. Guess we just wait and see.

 

Keep an eye on Pittmans youtube vlog, might get a sneak peek of Wentz with him in Cali

[NannyMcafee]

Most of grigsons draft choises are out of this league right now. 

[joecolts]

5 hours ago, shasta519 said:

A solid group from the Polian era? Grigson inherited a 2-win team with aging expensive players.
 

Clark, Addai and Brackett were old and had to be cut, which resulted in dead cap hits.

 

Manning’s dead cap hit was huge.

 

Freeney had the highest cap hit of any player in the NFL that season...and gave them a handful of sacks.

 

1/3 of his salary cap was dead cap hits from Polian contracts. Contrast to the cap situation that Ballard inherited.
 

Other than AC and Bethea, the cupboard was bare. Grigs had to re-sign Mathis and Wayne...a gamble considering the age of both players and the type of moves that most rebuilding teams do not do.

 

He earned every bit of that Exec of the Year award. 

Grigson failed to protect his greatest asset and although the talent they had was aging, he still had talent.  He left the Colts with a roster filled with bad draft choices (for the majority), no line to protect Luck (outside of AC) and bad deals all around.  Grigson IMO, does not hold a candle to Ballard.  Talent evaluation, roster development, player relationships...no comparison.  Grigson’s Executive of the Year falls into the blind squirrel finding the nut theory.  

[colts8718]

11 hours ago, Colts1324 said:

Grigson's single good move that I can think of that panned out is not only drafting TY Hilton, but trading up to get him. That was a brilliant move! 

You forgot Trent Richardson 

[colts8718]

Just imagine if Ballard had Luck all those years 

[NannyMcafee]

You'll notice Ballard is building for long term which could explain why his record doesn't show as good as grigsons in the short term. If grigson was better he would still be here. 

[Moosejawcolt]

9 hours ago, HectorRoberts said:

Hahahaha Moose Jaw is talking like a slack jaw

Lol

[RollerColt]

5 minutes ago, NannyMcafee said:

You'll notice Ballard is building for long term which could explain why his record doesn't show as good as grigsons in the short term. If grigson was better he would still be here. 

Thank you! How can we even compare these two? They've both had completely different situations. Grigson was given a clean slate to work with and the #1 overall pick to get Luck. Then, he had a stable amount of years with the coaching staff in Pagano. 

 

Each and every year since Chris has taken over, there's been some major obstacle in the way: 

2017: Managing the old team's coaching staff, Luck out for the year, chaos and questions. 

2018: McDaniels coaching fiasco, new head coach in Frank Reich, but with McDaniels' crew. 

2019: Luck retires. 

2020: QB search leads to Philip Rivers

2021: Rivers retires, QB search leads to Wentz. 

 

I don't know of many GMs who could wade waters this turbulent and still be standing. Yes, Grigson got us Luck, Hilton and many more good players, and had a very successful run as our manager for 3-4 years. But that doesn't mean Ballard is any worse because of that. 

 

Context. Is. Everything.

[joecolts]

2 minutes ago, RollerColt said:

Thank you! How can we even compare these two? They've both had completely different situations. Grigson was given a clean slate to work with and the #1 overall pick to get Luck. Then, he had a stable amount of years with the coaching staff in Pagano. 

 

Each and every year since Chris has taken over, there's been some major obstacle in the way: 

2017: Managing the old team's coaching staff, Luck out for the year, chaos and questions. 

2018: McDaniels coaching fiasco, new head coach in Frank Reich, but with McDaniels' crew. 

2019: Luck retires. 

2020: QB search leads to Philip Rivers

2021: Rivers retires, QB search leads to Wentz. 

 

I don't know of many GMs who could wade waters this turbulent and still be standing. Yes, Grigson got us Luck, Hilton and many more good players, and had a very successful run as our manager for 3-4 years. But that doesn't mean Ballard is any worse because of that. 

 

Context. Is. Everything.

Great recap!  Spot on!!

[twfish]

Dakich is that you????

[The Fish]

22 minutes ago, twfish said:

Dakich is that you????

I just heard a national broadcast guy butcher DD's name, I wasn't paying attention. He's in the news? lol

 

off to google it

[The Fish]

8 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

Just look at Polian’s draft’s from 1998 to 2006.   Full of Hall of Famers!    
 

What?  Are?  You?  Talking?   ABOUT?!? 

allow me to burry the minor hatchet and add to this...

 

WHAT ON EARTH.. Polian is an all time GM.. too bad he got old and didn't want to do the 16 hour days anymore.

[crazycolt1]

2 hours ago, colts8718 said:

You forgot Trent Richardson 

No one has forgotten TRich. 

At the time he was traded for most everyone thought that was a good trade. Including me.

It was not anyone's fault but Richardson's that he got fat and lazy. 

As much as I ended up disliking Grigson it was not his fault that TRich ended up being a bad trade. 

All the time he was here the coaches and front office were on him about his weight gain and I think he was even fined for it. 

[crazycolt1]

12 minutes ago, The Fish said:

I just heard a national broadcast guy butcher DD's name, I wasn't paying attention. He's in the news? lol

 

off to google it

Yeah, another one of his loud mouth rants has got him in hot water with ESPN. 

The dude just never learns. 

[chad72]

Bottom line the truth is somewhere in the middle.

 

Ballard has swung and missed on pass rushers just as much as Grigson swung and missed on OL. However, Ballard has the pieces to protect a franchise QB and has hired the right coach in Reich with the right system that gets rid of the ball better as well to protect a franchise QB. 

 

Polian had the luxury of Peyton, just like Grigson had Luck, and also had a steady presence with Dungy which is when the winning came consistently, even if Dungy fell short at the highest level. So flaws on the roster can be covered by an elite QB, that is just how it goes. Polian did draft his pass rushers well and Grigson and Pagano squeezed what they could out of Mathis early on. Once the homegrown talent surrounding the QB had to shine, the combination of underwhelming Grigson's drafts and free agents plus an above average coaching staff eventually caught up in the W-L record as time went on. 

 

Ballard and Reich together is showing us why Grigson and Pagano together failed, so instead of it just being Ballard vs Grigson, it should truly be Ballard and Reich vs Grigson and Pagano. That is where the true advantage lies for the current regime, IMO.

[lollygagger8]

14 hours ago, DEFENSE said:

ballard 4 years won 32 lost 32

grigson 5 years won 49 lost 31

ballard 4 years playoff wins 1

grigson 5 years playoff wins 3

and i didnt like grigson

 

 

[The Fish]

10 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Yeah, another one of his loud mouth rants has got him in hot water with ESPN. 

The dude just never learns. 

I saw the story. 

I uhh...

That's a story? That's worth attention!? A twitter spat with one quasi naughty word?

I'm blown away with where our society is going to be honest. That's what I'm going to say about this.

 

 

[groundnpound]

Grigson couldn't carry CB's Ipad.

[twfish]

13 hours ago, John Hammonds said:

Grigson

Total Draft choices - 38

Top 50 made pro bowl - 2

Top 50 bust - 3

Bottom 50+ pro bowl - 0

Bottom 50+ starters - 5

Best Moves:  Andrew Luck, TY Hilton, Vontae Davis, Corey Redding, D'Qwell Jackson, Adam Vinatieri, Ryan Kelly, Pierre Desir

Worst Moves: Trent Richardson, Bjorn Werner, Phillip Dorsett, TJ Green, D'Joun Smith

2012 Executive of the Year

 

Ballard

Total Draft choices - 38

Top 50 made pro bowl - 2

Top 50 bust - 2

Bottom 50+ pro bowl - 0

Bottom 50+ starters - 6

Best Moves: Quenton Nelson, Darius Leonard, Brandon Smith, Marlon Mack, Nyhiem Hines, Jonathan Tylor, Michael Pittman, Khari Willis, Julian Blackmon, Mark Glowinski, Jabaal Sheard, Justin Houston, DeForest Buckner

Worst Moves:  Malik Hooker, Quincey Wilson, Kemoko Turay, Rock Ya-Sin, Ben Banogu, Parris Campbell

 

Amazing how close success and failure are in the NFL.  It's a hair's breadth between a 6-10 season and a 10-6 season.

Lets go ahead and pull off Adam Vinatari, Pierre Desir and Ryan Kelly (Irsay pretty much forced him to take that pick)

Lets add Donte Monreif (best year was under 750 yards and never really achieved with the team) Le"Raven Clark with a fringe pick of Jonathon Newsome. Then lets look at the worst free agent signings for both 

 

Grigson- Donald Thomas, Laron Landry, Gosder Cherilus, Art Jones, Hakeem Nicks, Todd Herremans, Trent Cole, Andre Johnson

 

Ballard- Ryan Grant, Devin Funchess any others are reaches.

 

Ballard has had a different starting QB every year as well. 

[joecolts]

12 minutes ago, chad72 said:

Ballard and Reich together is showing us why Grigson and Pagano together failed, so instead of it just being Ballard vs Grigson, it should truly be Ballard and Reich vs Grigson and Pagano. That is where the true advantage lies for the current regime, IMO.

This is a valid point well made.

[crazycolt1]

2 minutes ago, The Fish said:

I saw the story. 

I uhh...

That's a story? That's worth attention!? A twitter spat with one quasi naughty word?

I'm blown away with where our society is going to be honest. That's what I'm going to say about this.

 

 

He already knows he is treading so why would he jump in? 

[twfish]

29 minutes ago, The Fish said:

I just heard a national broadcast guy butcher DD's name, I wasn't paying attention. He's in the news? lol

 

off to google it

https://nypost.com/2021/03/01/duke-professor-espns-dan-dakich-violated-me-with-his-words/

probably this.... So freaking laughable lol

[The Fish]

3 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

He already knows he is treading so why would he jump in? 

Well, I'm not defending his Jerry Springer-esq inflated media persona, but that's what he's paid to do on some level?

I dunno. Maybe he's a sucker for punishment? 

 

[John Hammonds]

5 minutes ago, twfish said:

Lets go ahead and pull off Adam Vinatari, Pierre Desir and Ryan Kelly (Irsay pretty much forced him to take that pick)

Lets add Donte Monreif (best year was under 750 yards and never really achieved with the team) Le"Raven Clark with a fringe pick of Jonathon Newsome. Then lets look at the worst free agent signings for both 

 

Grigson- Donald Thomas, Laron Landry, Gosder Cherilus, Art Jones, Hakeem Nicks, Todd Herremans, Trent Cole, Andre Johnson

 

Ballard- Ryan Grant, Devin Funchess any others are reaches.

 

Ballard has had a different starting QB every year as well. 

You can also add another name to the Grigson "bad move" list:  Darrius Heyward-Bey

[twfish]

3 minutes ago, The Fish said:

Well, I'm not defending his Jerry Springer-esq inflated media persona, but that's what he's paid to do on some level?

I dunno. Maybe he's a sucker for punishment? 

 

Just know I am fighting off every urge to derail this thread with in-depth WTH is wrong with this world lol 

[crazycolt1]

3 minutes ago, twfish said:

Just know I am fighting off every urge to derail this thread with in-depth WTH is wrong with this world lol 

I have a strong feeling this thread is only one of a long list of off season boring threads.  

 

[groundnpound]

3 hours ago, colts8718 said:

You forgot Trent Richardson 

 

 

That alone should keep Grigson's name out of this forum.

[twfish]

1 minute ago, crazycolt1 said:

I have a strong feeling this thread is only one of a long list of off season boring threads.  

 

Well you just know any thread that compares one of the most respected and top GM's in the league to a guy who took Luck out back and beat him as well as forced our star punter out of the league is going to be a joke. I still think back to all the great colts that got the raw end of deals and were cut as soon as he came in...

[Nesjan3]

Although we have not had the same success with Ballard. Grigson's success can directly be attributed to Luck being the QB, he failed in pretty much every aspect of a GM except he managed not to screw up drafting Luck #1. He also drafted Kelly at C AFTER Luck was beaten into retirement. One can argue Grigson actually ruined a once in a generation talent kind of like what the Bengals are about to do to Burrow

[The Fish]

53 minutes ago, John Hammonds said:

You can also add another name to the Grigson "bad move" list:  Darrius Heyward-Bey

I can't see his name and not mentally jump immediately to "hands of clay" to this day.  

[Myles]

Another dumb thread about Grigson and Ballard.

 

There is an easy fix.   If you could pick 1 to run the team for the next 5 years, would it be Ballard or Grigson?

[gspdx]

4 hours ago, NannyMcafee said:

You'll notice Ballard is building for long term which could explain why his record doesn't show as good as grigsons in the short term. If grigson was better he would still be here. 

 

Exactly.  If I am building a house and spend 30 minutes on the foundation it might look cool when I am done but will immediately start to fail.

 

If I do the foundation right it will take time and won't look like much.  But long term everything else will reap the benefits.

 

Ballard has worked hard to put the foundational pieces in place - while still dealing with a revolving door starting QB situation thanks to Grigs.

[gspdx]

2 hours ago, The Fish said:

I saw the story. 

I uhh...

That's a story? That's worth attention!? A twitter spat with one quasi naughty word?

I'm blown away with where our society is going to be honest. That's what I'm going to say about this.

 

 

 

Unfortunately so much of what it going on today is to generate fake drama.  Even when I watch what is supposed to be a documentary they add crazy hyped up or spooky music and have silly graphics and flashing camera angles.  

[RollerColt]

1 minute ago, gspdx said:

 

Unfortunately so much of what it going on today is to generate fake drama.  Even when I watch what is supposed to be a documentary they add crazy hyped up or spooky music and have silly graphics and flashing camera angles.  

People nowadays are overstimulated. So in order to garner and hold on to their attention, you have to continue going big. Flashing lights, explosions, chaos. People eat up reality TV because of it. It's just yelling and screaming, but then you look at the ratings... 

[Smonroe]

I'm pretty sure Grigson could take Ballard if it were an MMA style match.

 

(That's what this thread is about, right?  I didn't bother to read any of the posts)

[colts8718]

2 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

No one has forgotten TRich. 

At the time he was traded for most everyone thought that was a good trade. Including me.

It was not anyone's fault but Richardson's that he got fat and lazy. 

As much as I ended up disliking Grigson it was not his fault that TRich ended up being a bad trade. 

All the time he was here the coaches and front office were on him about his weight gain and I think he was even fined for it. 

I honestly was in shock they traded for him one of the worst trades in Colt history. When Grigson came in he signed so many bad free agents