[PFF] Historical draft success for all 32 NFL teams (MERGE)

[stitches]

12 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

The problem with this post is, you named the best players at their positions to prove your point. Of course I would trade Q for Mahomes lol or maybe the best WR in the league. You posted earlier it could be a discussion to trade Q or Leonard for Godwin. No way nobody would do that. 

So how far down would you go before you take Q? This is really the question here. So you would take the best WR over Q. What about the 3d best WR? 5th best? 10th? This is really what we are talking about. Where is your cutoff? For PFF the cutoff is somewhere around Calvin Ridley. I'm not even agreeing with them. I personally would take Q over him easy, but... I would definitely take multiple receivers over him. Not sure how many.

 

Godwin actually might be a good threshold for me. I think I'm on the fence with him. I think I'd take him over Leonard but probably not over Q... Not sure. Have to think about it more.

 

[w87r]

2 minutes ago, stitches said:

Very possibly at no. 2 too.

 

 

Yeah we will just have to agree to disagree, no doubt, but that's ok. 

 

 

I do agree with the graphs, as far as Colts consistency in the draft though.

[2006Coltsbestever]

9 minutes ago, stitches said:

 

Let's just say I disagree, and I would put WR firmly somewhere among those other positions you listed after QB. Very possibly at no. 2 too.

Yes, in PFF's system and it was me expanding on a response to someone wondering why Tampa bay is ranked this high and above us. This was part of my answer.

It's not a "bad take". It was a guess about how PFFs WAR values them in order to rank Tampa bay over the Colts..

 

Would you trade Q straight up for Godwin? Would you trade Leonard straight up for Godwin. I really hope your answer is no, if not I will be like 

[2006Coltsbestever]

6 minutes ago, stitches said:

So how far down would you go before you take Q? This is really the question here. So you would take the best WR over Q. What about the 3d best WR? 5th best? 10th? This is really what we are talking about. Where is your cutoff? For PFF the cutoff is somewhere around Calvin Ridley. I'm not even agreeing with them. I personally would take Q over him easy, but... I would definitely take multiple receivers over him. Not sure how many.

 

Godwin actually might be a good threshold for me. I think I'm on the fence with him. I think I'd take him over Leonard but probably not over Q... Not sure. Have to think about it more.

 

Maybe top 3, like a Diggs or Hopkins or a TE like Kelce. Outside of that it would be dicey.

[stitches]

Just now, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Would you trade Q straight up for Godwin? Would you trade Leonard straight up for Godwin. I really hope your answer is no, if not I will be like 

Answered that above. People love their own stars and undervalue other teams' stars. Nothing new here... Even the Superbowl winning team's stars can't compare to ours. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Maybe top 3, like a Diggs or Hopkins or a TE like Kelce. Outside of that it would be dicey.

Adams would be another perhaps but outside of that, really dicey.

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 minutes ago, stitches said:

Answered that above. People love their own stars and undervalue other teams' stars. Nothing new here... Even the Superbowl winning team's stars can't compare to ours. 

I just don't think Godwin is as valuable as Q or Leonard. See above though to who I would consider trading for. I added Adams, I spaced him.

[stitches]

Just for the record I want to point out that we are talking about a 25 year old pro bowler and all pro WR Chris Godwin, because by the way people are talking about him here one would think we are talking about some scrub who has no place in the same sentence as Q or Leonard.

[2006Coltsbestever]

7 minutes ago, stitches said:

Just for the record I want to point out that we are talking about a 25 year old pro bowler and all pro WR Chris Godwin, because by the way people are talking about him here one would think we are talking about some scrub who has no place in the same sentence as Q or Leonard.

Not true at all regarding me. I know Godwin is good and have said so but I wouldn't trade Q or Leonard for him is all I am saying and I don't think most people would that aren't even Colts fans.

[w87r]

38 minutes ago, stitches said:

Just for the record I want to point out that we are talking about a 25 year old pro bowler and all pro WR Chris Godwin, because by the way people are talking about him here one would think we are talking about some scrub who has no place in the same sentence as Q or Leonard.

Also for the record I said Godwin was a good WR as well.

 

The fact is his career avg/season to this point, is very middle of the pack, isn't to debatable. It's facts.

 

No one is talking like he is a scrub, we are saying he isn't more valuable than Q/DL combined and wouldn't trade either for him.

 

He has had 1 really good season, 2 average seasons and a rookie season comparable to Pittman Jr's rookie year. Actually Pittman's rookie year was better and he played 3 less games than Godwin.

[2006Coltsbestever]

21 minutes ago, w87r said:

Also for the record I said Godwin was a good WR as well.

 

The fact is his career avg/season to this point, is very middle of the pack, isn't to debatable. It's facts.

 

No one is talking like he is a scrub, we are saying he isn't more valuable than Q/DL combined and wouldn't trade either for him.

 

He has had 1 really good season, 2 average seasons and a rookie season comparable to Pittman Jr's rookie year. Actually Pittman's rookie year was better and he played 3 less games than Godwin.

This. I listed the WR's/TE's that I would consider trading Q or Leonard for being:

-Diggs, Hopkins, Adams, and Kelce. That is 4 but after that I have to stop. I even listed 4 @stitches. No way Godwin or Ridley makes my list and both those guys are good to very good but Q and Leonard are arguably the best at their position.

 

I can make a strong case that Mike Evans (his teammate) is better than Godwin, his stats were better. I will tell you a WR I would love to have is Robinson via Free Agency, he is a beast.

[w87r]

52 minutes ago, stitches said:

Answered that above. People love their own stars and undervalue other teams' stars. Nothing new here... Even the Superbowl winning team's stars can't compare to ours. 

Get off it already.

 

Godwin had 2 rec 9yds in the Super Bowl. Averaged 4rec under 60yds a game in his 4 playoff games, with a catch percentage the same as Marcus Johnson had for the Colts this year.

 

He was one of the last reasons why TB won the Super Bowl. 

 

Maybe we should trade Q for Joe Haeg since he was on the super bowl winning team. Scotty Miller perhaps, since its a WR value discussion.(little dramatic I know, but look where you've taken this subject)

 

Acting like this is all cliche thoughts of a homer fan and his teams players. Has nothing to do with that. It has always been about your take on Godwin "probably"  having more value then both Q/DL combined, and claiming it would have to be taken in consideration to trade 1 of them for him.

 

3 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I can make a strong case that Mike Evans (his teammate) is better than Godwin, his stats were better.

I don't even think this is arguable, imo. Evans is most definitely better than Godwin.

[w87r]

@Moosejawcolt

 

Just curious, I know your disdain(probably harsh term) for Q and Leonard.

 

Would you trade either of them for Chris Godwin?

 

Just been a topic of discussion here, figured if anyone on here might, it would most likely be you.

 

[life long]

19 minutes ago, w87r said:

@Moosejawcolt

 

Just curious, I know your disdain(probably harsh term) for Q and Leonard.

 

Would you trade either of them for Chris Godwin?

 

Just been a topic of discussion here, figured if anyone on here might, it would most likely be you.

 

If he says no he would be lying... I'll get my popcorn 

[w87r]

13 minutes ago, life long said:

If he says no he would be lying... I'll get my popcorn 

I don't think he would lie about it.

 

My hope is that, even he wouldn't. That's what I am hoping to hear. Whatever he says will be the truth though, I don't doubt that.

[Lucky Colts Fan]

Interesting read @stitches, 

 

I like how they said the Nelson pick was as good as it gets, but because of positional value, the ceiling for a generational guard is only the 93rd percentile.  Then later on, point out that it's really all just manipulation of numbers, and that it could be great coaching/scheme/veteran leadership that is taking average picks from a GM and making them look like great picks when the system works.  Like those things are just afterthoughts when considering the success of a TEAM sport...  

 

The most interesting thing was that Loomis has been the Saints GM for so long.  He's had a pretty good run of drafting the last 14 years.  Almost like he's getting better the more experience he gets...    If Ballard spends the next decade drafting for the Colts like he has the last 4 years, and his locker room has top-notch coaching, scheme, and leadership...

 

[stitches]

4 hours ago, w87r said:

Get off it already.

 

Godwin had 2 rec 9yds in the Super Bowl. Averaged 4rec under 60yds a game in his 4 playoff games, with a catch percentage the same as Marcus Johnson had for the Colts this year.

 

He was one of the last reasons why TB won the Super Bowl. 

 

Maybe we should trade Q for Joe Haeg since he was on the super bowl winning team. Scotty Miller perhaps, since its a WR value discussion.(little dramatic I know, but look where you've taken this subject)

Yeah, if Miller or Haeg had the WHOLE resume and the talent of Godwin maybe we should. Worth pointing out that this was probably the worst stretch of Godwin's career (and it was mainly thanks to drops). I think he had like 7 drops in the playoffs while never having more than 2 in a whole season previously. I would personally consider that a freaky happenstance, and trust the much bigger sample of him being a very reliable catcher of the football. Also, it's not me that's taken it here. YOU just did.

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Acting like this is all cliche thoughts of a homer fan and his teams players. Has nothing to do with that. It has always been about your take on Godwin "probably"  having more value then both Q/DL combined, and claiming it would have to be taken in consideration to trade 1 of them for him.

 

I've already pointed out several times that this is NOT my 'take', but rather a guess on part of the explanation on the Bucs place in those graphs. So why do you keep going with this? At this point I am considering this bad faith exchange on your part. On the second part - yes, it would have to be taken in consideration(if they were up for trade and tied in similar contracts, rather than Godwin being a FA). BTW Godwin is one of the players we should consider breaking Ballard's bank on this FA. Insert Whynothaveboth.gif

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I don't even think this is arguable, imo. Evans is most definitely better than Godwin.

Agree with this. Evans is both better and more valuable than Godwin. Worth pointing out that both Superbowl teams had premier pass catching weapons as it relates to our discussion on the value of the position.

 

[stitches]

1 hour ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

Interesting read @stitches, 

 

I like how they said the Nelson pick was as good as it gets, but because of positional value, the ceiling for a generational guard is only the 93rd percentile.  Then later on, point out that it's really all just manipulation of numbers, and that it could be great coaching/scheme/veteran leadership that is taking average picks from a GM and making them look like great picks when the system works.  Like those things are just afterthoughts when considering the success of a TEAM sport...  

 

The most interesting thing was that Loomis has been the Saints GM for so long.  He's had a pretty good run of drafting the last 14 years.  Almost like he's getting better the more experience he gets...    If Ballard spends the next decade drafting for the Colts like he has the last 4 years, and his locker room has top-notch coaching, scheme, and leadership...

 

In reality they are probably right to point out that most GMs in the league don't have long enough track record to be free of small sample bias one way or the other. It's very likely if you gave every GM 100 drafts, their draft success will tend to converge toward the average. BTW, I wonder where Grigson would be on those graphs. I would guess pretty high thanks to drafting Luck and TY Hilton(similar to HOU in this graph thanks to Deshaun Watson). Just another reminder that even though those graphs might be useful in some cases you have to keep in mind their limitations and biases.

[w87r]

5 hours ago, stitches said:

Yeah, if Miller or Haeg had the WHOLE resume and the talent of Godwin maybe we should. Worth pointing out that this was probably the worst stretch of Godwin's career (and it was mainly thanks to drops). I think he had like 7 drops in the playoffs while never having more than 2 in a whole season previously. I would personally consider that a freaky happenstance, and trust the much bigger sample of him being a very reliable catcher of the football. Also, it's not me that's taken it here. YOU just did.

Godwin has had 1 above average to good season in 4 years. In a year where his yardage was inflated and even Jameis Winston threw for 5000yds in Arians deep attack offense. Everything else has been very middle of the pack.

 

Thanks for helping prove my point on his drops in the biggest moments though. I didn't even go there, so thanks. He does have usually reliable hands though, I will give you that.

 

And YOU were the one that brought it here, with your "opinions" and statements after the fact, more on that later.

 

6 hours ago, stitches said:

I've already pointed out several times that this is NOT my 'take', but rather a guess on part of the explanation on the Bucs place in those graphs. So why do you keep going with this? At this point I am considering this bad faith exchange on your part. On the second part - yes, it would have to be taken in consideration(if they were up for trade and tied in similar contracts, rather than Godwin being a FA). BTW Godwin is one of the players we should consider breaking Ballard's bank on this FA. Insert Whynothaveboth.gif

So PFF said Godwin is "probably" more valuable than Q/DL combined? Or was that you?

 

So PFF said that we should consider trading Q/ or DL for Godwin? Or was that you?

 

I'm arguing in bad faith? Or is that you? I have delivered nothing but facts here and the only disputed issues are your opinions, that you are trying to push back on PFF now, as theirs and just your interpretation of them.

 

Then lets back it up a little bit. I already agreed to disagree, tried to bring the conversation back to the graphs, then YOU made 2 more post with statements of the following:

 

1. Godwin is really good, some people want to act like he is a scrub.

 

No one said that at all. Another opinion of yours that was off based.

 

2. Colts fans are blinded by our own guys and players on TBs super bowl winning team don't compare. (This was the see later part). "Nothing new here"

 

Haeg almost had a TD catch in the SB, if Miller would of even had 1 catch, then he would of had just as much impact on the Super Bowl as Godwin(who essentially had none). So again you were the one to say stars on TB "super bowl winning team", as if it had any relevance. 

 

 

 

I wouldn't mind bringing in Godwin as a FA, no where near what he probably expects to get though, or breaking the bank you talked about.

 

6 hours ago, stitches said:

Agree with this. Evans is both better and more valuable than Godwin. Worth pointing out that both Superbowl teams had premier pass catching weapons as it relates to our discussion on the value of the position.

You mean those premium pass catching weapons that TB defense shut down? They were the real "stars" of the Super Bowl. TB defense was great this season.

 

I guess Mike Evans, Chris Godwin, Tyreke Hill were more valuable than Brady, Barrett, Pierre Paul, Suh, White, David, Davis, Donovan Smith, Wirfs, Marpet, Cappa and even Mahomes or Chris Jones

 

And lets also not forget the fact that KCs LT was out.

 

So there is a list of my most important positions.

QB - Brady, Mahomes

LT - Smith, lack of Fisher

DE/OLB - Barrett, Paul

DT/DE - Suh, Jones(arguably 2nd most important player on Chiefs)

CB - Davis

G - Marpet, Cappa(helping keep Brady clean)

 

Even threw a couple of those invaluable LBers in there as well. Just for fun. They weren't very valuable though I guess? In actuality they might of been the most valuable pieces in the game.

 

 

More bad faith arguments by YOU. Just saying, just cause a team has a premium pass cather doesn't make that guy the most valuable or the reason that team made the Super Bowl.

 

 

Hopefully we can get back to the graphs, once again, but I suspect you will feel the need to continually tell me why WRs are still more valuable.

[Moosejawcolt]

11 hours ago, w87r said:

@Moosejawcolt

 

Just curious, I know your disdain(probably harsh term) for Q and Leonard.

 

Would you trade either of them for Chris Godwin?

 

Just been a topic of discussion here, figured if anyone on here might, it would most likely be you.

 

I dont dislike Q or Leonard. I just think when it comes to signing them, they r over valued based on the postion they play. I would love a dominant player that plays a skill postion on these team such as a wr or corner. Would I trade a Leonard for an elite corner.....yuppers

[w87r]

16 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

I dont dislike Q or Leonard. I just think when it comes to signing them, they r over valued based on the postion they play. I would love a dominant player that plays a skill postion on these team such as a wr or corner. Would I trade a Leonard for an elite corner.....yuppers

Thanks for the response.

 

What about Godwin? 

[Moosejawcolt]

13 minutes ago, w87r said:

Thanks for the response.

 

What about Godwin? 

I think we need to give some of our young guys a chance to play. My only reason for signing another reciever is Campbell. I am not sure this team can count on him to stay healthy. If Campbell coukd be counted on , I would say we r good.

[w87r]

25 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

I think we need to give some of our young guys a chance to play. My only reason for signing another reciever is Campbell. I am not sure this team can count on him to stay healthy. If Campbell coukd be counted on , I would say we r good.

Is it safe to say that since you haven't said yes on trading either of them for Godwin for 2 post, that you wouldn't?

 

That's the conclusion(you wouldn't make that trade) I have came to.

 

I don't have any issue with signing a WR either, just not break the bank on one. Bring TY back or another guy in at the $8m-$10m range if need be for increased depth, or draft another guy. Just depends how FA plays out.

 

I do think between Pittman, Pascal, Campbell, Patmon we need to see what we got for sure. Wentz is known for targeting TEst more anyway.

 

Trading Q or DL for Godwin though, doesn't even get the phone call answered to even be able to hang up.

[stitches]

2 hours ago, w87r said:

Godwin has had 1 above average to good season in 4 years. In a year where his yardage was inflated and even Jameis Winston threw for 5000yds in Arians deep attack offense. Everything else has been very middle of the pack.

 

Thanks for helping prove my point on his drops in the biggest moments though. I didn't even go there, so thanks. He does have usually reliable hands though, I will give you that.

 

And YOU were the one that brought it here, with your "opinions" and statements after the fact, more on that later.

 

All I brought here was a guess about how PFF values Godwin vs Leonard and Q in an attempt to answer a question about why Tampa bay was ranked so high in those graphs. Everything after that has been people trying to pin PFFs evaluation on my opinion and me repeatedly saying - this is not my opinion, this is how PFF likely values them. 

 

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So PFF said Godwin is "probably" more valuable than Q/DL combined? Or was that you?

That's PFF ...likely... again... not sure because I don't have their numbers, but knowing what they value and knowing that they themselves said Q is about as valuable as Calvin Ridley in their system, my guess would be that by their numbers Q and Leonard together are about as valuable or less valuable than Godwin.. I clearly said that just a few posts after my initial post and said it multiple times here  and here and here and here  and here , etc... pretty much in every single comment in this thread I made it clear that this is likely how PFF values them, not how I value them. In one of those I clearly stated this: 

 

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If you asked me whether I would trade DL+Q for Godwin my answer would be HELL NO. Now if you ask if I would trade one of them for Godwin... that might be worth a discussion. 

and this:

 

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Godwin actually might be a good threshold for me. I think I'm on the fence with him. I think I'd take him over Leonard but probably not over Q... Not sure. Have to think about it more.

 

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So PFF said that we should consider trading Q/ or DL for Godwin? Or was that you?

That was me, but it's clearly in the context of the argument about their value. It's pretty common way to illustrate how one values an asset/player - would you trade X for Y? And this should be especially obvious since DL and Q are not FAs and Godwin is. And again, I want to point out that this whole thing was me trying to defend myself from people attributing things to me that I never said or meant and I believe I did plenty enough to make it clear that this was PFF's value not mine, like I linked above in about half a dozen cases in this thread. Yet here we are... 

 

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I'm arguing in bad faith? Or is that you? I have delivered nothing but facts here and the only disputed issues are your opinions, that you are trying to push back on PFF now, as theirs and just your interpretation of them.

No, you repeatedly have misrepresented my opinion in this thread, even after being corrected again and again and again(counted to about half a dozen times on the first page alone me saying, this is how PFF likely values them).  So how about this... post again what you think my opinion is and what your objections are. Hint... I quoted my summarized opinion above. 

 

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Then lets back it up a little bit. I already agreed to disagree, tried to bring the conversation back to the graphs, then YOU made 2 more post with statements of the following:

 

1. Godwin is really good, some people want to act like he is a scrub.

 

No one said that at all. Another opinion of yours that was off based.

I will take the fault here and apologize. You didn't say he's a scrub. You said he has only one season above average. Shouldn't have said scrub... should have said "people here act like he's an average receiver", which he's not and it will become very obvious how NFL teams value him in about 2-3 weeks when FA starts. 

 

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2. Colts fans are blinded by our own guys and players on TBs super bowl winning team don't compare. (This was the see later part). "Nothing new here"

I stand by this. People usually overvalue their own players and undervalue other teams' players. Nothing new here indeed. I think this thread is a good representation of this too. Just my opinion. 

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Haeg almost had a TD catch in the SB, if Miller would of even had 1 catch, then he would of had just as much impact on the Super Bowl as Godwin(who essentially had none). So again you were the one to say stars on TB "super bowl winning team", as if it had any relevance. 

The problem is the SB is one game. In order to get there you need to go through a season and 3 playoff games. Godwin was pretty valuable to Tampa bay in their SB winning season, even if he dropped like... 4 passes in the SB itself. 

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I wouldn't mind bringing in Godwin as a FA, no where near what he probably expects to get though, or breaking the bank you talked about.

Sure... I don't mind that... agree to disagree. I don't have a problem with you not liking Godwin as much as me or anyone else. 

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You mean those premium pass catching weapons that TB defense shut down? They were the real "stars" of the Super Bowl. TB defense was great this season.

 

I guess Mike Evans, Chris Godwin, Tyreke Hill were more valuable than Brady, Barrett, Pierre Paul, Suh, White, David, Davis, Donovan Smith, Wirfs, Marpet, Cappa and even Mahomes or Chris Jones

No, nobody is saying those players are not valuable or that there is no value to having good LBs or DL or OL... But again... you are talking about a single game with incredibly hobbled KC OL that gave up 55% pressure rate and where Mahomes was pressured in less than 2.5 seconds in about half his snaps. 

 

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And lets also not forget the fact that KCs LT was out.

 

So there is a list of my most important positions.

QB - Brady, Mahomes

LT - Smith, lack of Fisher

DE/OLB - Barrett, Paul

DT/DE - Suh, Jones(arguably 2nd most important player on Chiefs)

CB - Davis

G - Marpet, Cappa(helping keep Brady clean)

 

Even threw a couple of those invaluable LBers in there as well. Just for fun. They weren't very valuable though I guess? In actuality they might of been the most valuable pieces in the game.

IMO the biggest mismatch in this game was KC OL vs Tampa bay DL and a ton of it had to do with KC OL just being super short handed and being destroyed by Tampa bay's DL. This IMO was what decided that game more than anything else. But again.. .we are talking about a single game with a very very weird mismatch that's not likely to happen very often in a SB, simply because in order to get there teams should have some base level of OL play... It just happened that an already hobbled KC OL lost even more pieces between the previous game and the SB. 

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More bad faith arguments by YOU. Just saying, just cause a team has a premium pass cather doesn't make that guy the most valuable or the reason that team made the Super Bowl.

Agree with this. Never said otherwise. But I do think premier passcatchers and playmakers are very valuable.

 

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Hopefully we can get back to the graphs, once again, but I suspect you will feel the need to continually tell me why WRs are still more valuable.

OK, what do you want to discuss about the graphs? 

[Moosejawcolt]

9 hours ago, w87r said:

Is it safe to say that since you haven't said yes on trading either of them for Godwin for 2 post, that you wouldn't?

 

That's the conclusion(you wouldn't make that trade) I have came to.

 

I don't have any issue with signing a WR either, just not break the bank on one. Bring TY back or another guy in at the $8m-$10m range if need be for increased depth, or draft another guy. Just depends how FA plays out.

 

I do think between Pittman, Pascal, Campbell, Patmon we need to see what we got for sure. Wentz is known for targeting TEst more anyway.

 

Trading Q or DL for Godwin though, doesn't even get the phone call answered to even be able to hang up.

I never mentioned trading Q or Leonard for Goodwin. I really know nothing bout his abilities as a wr

[w87r]

31 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

I never mentioned trading Q or Leonard for Goodwin. I really know nothing bout his abilities as a wr

I know. When I tagged you that was the question I asked.

 

That trade was being discussed here, so wanted to know what you thought. 

[Moosejawcolt]

57 minutes ago, w87r said:

I know. When I tagged you that was the question I asked.

 

That trade was being discussed here, so wanted to know what you thought. 

I doubt it. Now Robinson.....hmmmm.  Hes a stud

[Moosejawcolt]

1 hour ago, Moosejawcolt said:

I never mentioned trading Q or Leonard for Goodwin. I really know nothing bout his abilities as a wr

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1659834-power-ranking-the-importance-of-each-position-in-todays-nfl

 

What do  u think of the article? I know people think I am down on Leonard and Q but I kind of agree with points contained in this right up

[NewColtsFan]

37 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1659834-power-ranking-the-importance-of-each-position-in-todays-nfl

 

What do  u think of the article? I know people think I am down on Leonard and Q but I kind of agree with points contained in this right up

I think the article is interesting, but there’s one negative thing that jumps off the page...

 

The article is 8 years old... June of 2013.  That’s an old story and I would say it’s conclusions are based on outdated information.  
 

Also...   the list is overly simplistic...   it shows 15 positions, not 22.   So positions like wide receiver are stated as one position.  Same with Corner and Safety, O-Tackle and guard.  Same with DT.    I think I noted a split at DE.  One pass rushing and the other as mire run stuffing.   
 

I could be wrong, but I don’t associate Bleacher Report with analytics.   Especially 8 years ago.  They’re improved in the last few years.   So I view this as much as an opinion piece than anything else. 

[Moosejawcolt]

25 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

I think the article is interesting, but there’s one negative thing that jumps off the page...

 

The article is 8 years old... June of 2013.  That’s an old story and I would say it’s conclusions are based on outdated information.  
 

Also...   the list is overly simplistic...   it shows 15 positions, not 22.   So positions like wide receiver are stated as one position.  Same with Corner and Safety, O-Tackle and guard.  Same with DT.    I think I noted a split at DE.  One pass rushing and the other as mire run stuffing.   
 

I could be wrong, but I don’t associate Bleacher Report with analytics.   Especially 8 years ago.  They’re improved in the last few years.   So I view this as much as an opinion piece than anything else. 

I agree it is older but if anything it probably holds some weight as it is a passing league.

[NewColtsFan]

7 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

I agree it is older but if anything it probably holds some weight as it is a passing league.

Of course it’s a passing league.   But there's 8 more years of new analytical info that is not used. 
 

Plus, I didn’t see analytical info in the story.   It all looks like the writer’s opinion.  I don’t know why this writers views should have any significant value.  

[stitches]

5 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1659834-power-ranking-the-importance-of-each-position-in-todays-nfl

 

What do  u think of the article? I know people think I am down on Leonard and Q but I kind of agree with points contained in this right up

 

3 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

Of course it’s a passing league.   But there's 8 more years of new analytical info that is not used. 
 

Plus, I didn’t see analytical info in the story.   It all looks like the writer’s opinion.  I don’t know why this writers views should have any significant value.  

 

Yeah... the newer analytics, if you trust them, by companies like PFF suggest the most valuable positions are the ones most tightly linked to the passing game are the ones that are most valuable ones - meaning, on offense - QB, WR... OT(because they are the hardest OL positions, a lot of one on one pass-protection work) and on defense - CB, EDGE pass-rushers, S... DTs can be valuable too, but they need to have considerable pass-rush production and most of them don't - because the inside is clogged and players get double teamed more easily, etc. The Aaron Donalds of the world are very very rare. I wonder how Buckner grades in their WAR system. He's one of the best interior rushers in the league, but still probably doesn't rank very high when you include all the other positions on the field. I know Aaron Donald' value in their system was about the same as that of an average QB. Just an illustration of how important the QB position is - an average to below average QB gives you the same value as the best interior rusher of this generation. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 hour ago, stitches said:

 

 

Yeah... the newer analytics, if you trust them, by companies like PFF suggest the most valuable positions are the ones most tightly linked to the passing game are the ones that are most valuable ones - meaning, on offense - QB, WR... OT(because they are the hardest OL positions, a lot of one on one pass-protection work) and on defense - CB, EDGE pass-rushers, S... DTs can be valuable too, but they need to have considerable pass-rush production and most of them don't - because the inside is clogged and players get double teamed more easily, etc. The Aaron Donalds of the world are very very rare. I wonder how Buckner grades in their WAR system. He's one of the best interior rushers in the league, but still probably doesn't rank very high when you include all the other positions on the field. I know Aaron Donald' value in their system was about the same as that of an average QB. Just an illustration of how important the QB position is - an average to below average QB gives you the same value as the best interior rusher of this generation. 

Yep, just like in an all-time draft for example. Lets say you have 6 people participating in that exercise. All 6 will take a QB in round 1 as in perhaps:

1st pick. Tom Brady (Team 1)

2nd pick. Joe Montana (Team 2)

3rd pick. Peyton Manning (Team 3)

4th pick. Johnny Unitas (Team 4)

5th pick. John Elway (Team 5)

6th pick. Aaron Rodgers (Team 6)

-every team is set at QB at that point, in a snake draft, Team 6 picks 1st in round 2 to keep it fair and at that point who knows what Team 6 will do based on value of pick??

 

Maybe for round 2:

7th pick. (Team 6) Jerry Rice WR or do you take a LT like Anthony Munoz or a Pass Rusher like Lawrence Taylor or Reggie White? Lets say Team 6 goes with Rice, then

 

8th pick. (Team 5) perhaps take Anthony Munoz LT here at 6'6 280 pounds with long arms you would have a guy that can protect your QB for a decade. Then again some may want to go Randy Moss WR or Marvin Harrison WR here or a Pass Rusher??

 

9th pick. (Team 4) I would say Lawrence Taylor OLB 6'3 240 pounds here based on value or Reggie White DE 6'5 290 pounds, right?

 

[NewColtsFan]

32 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Yep, just like in an all-time draft for example. Lets say you have 6 people participating in that exercise. All 6 will take a QB in round 1 as in perhaps:

1st pick. Tom Brady (Team 1)

2nd pick. Joe Montana (Team 2)

3rd pick. Peyton Manning (Team 3)

4th pick. Johnny Unitas (Team 4)

5th pick. John Elway (Team 5)

6th pick. Aaron Rodgers (Team 6)

-every team is set at QB at that point, in a snake draft, Team 6 picks 1st in round 2 to keep it fair and at that point who knows what Team 6 will do based on value of pick??

 

Maybe for round 2:

7th pick. (Team 6) Jerry Rice WR or do you take a LT like Anthony Munoz or a Pass Rusher like Lawrence Taylor or Reggie White? Lets say Team 6 goes with Rice, then

 

8th pick. (Team 5) perhaps take Anthony Munoz LT here at 6'6 280 pounds with long arms you would have a guy that can protect your QB for a decade. Then again some may want to go Randy Moss WR or Marvin Harrison WR here or a Pass Rusher??

 

9th pick. (Team 4) I would say Lawrence Taylor OLB 6'3 240 pounds here based on value or Reggie White DE 6'5 290 pounds, right?

 

 

For what little it's worth,  I don't know the website where you found the measurements,  but I think Munoz arrived at USC in the mid-70's around 280.    I think he played his entire career at 300 plus...   

 

Same with Reggie White...   I think he played his Green Bay years around 300....

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

For what little it's worth,  I don't know the website where you found the measurements,  but I think Munoz arrived at USC in the mid-70's around 280.    I think he played his entire career at 300 plus...   

 

Same with Reggie White...   I think he played his Green Bay years around 300....

Yeah Wiki and Football reference stats had him listed at 280 but I am sure his playing WT fluctuated between 280-300. White was listed at 290 which he probably was in his Philly days. He put on some WT when he went to GB, so 300 is probably more accurate. LT was always around 240-245.

[Moosejawcolt]

11 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

Of course it’s a passing league.   But there's 8 more years of new analytical info that is not used. 
 

Plus, I didn’t see analytical info in the story.   It all looks like the writer’s opinion.  I don’t know why this writers views should have any significant value.  

So what positions do u value the most from 1 to 15? More simply put. Where do u value outside linebacker, not a 3-4 rushing linebacker, and a guard in today's football?

[OffensivelyPC]

I kinda had to lower my expectations when I saw the summarized above the chart, "Thanks to one draftee, the Chiefs have had the best multiple drafts."

[Four2itus]

I wouldn't trade Leonard or Nelson for TWO Godwins. 

[iuswingman]

I would take a good OL over good WR.   Doesn't matter how good the WR is if the QB is running for his life.  A good OL will let a QB shine.  A good QB will make WRs look good.

[NewColtsFan]

On 2/26/2021 at 9:42 AM, DougDew said:

I like Antoine Winfield Jr at FS.  They took him in the second round last spring and he contributed this year.  And their CB (Carlton Davis?) was another recent draft pick that starts in their secondary.  I think he has the length Ballard covets in CBs, but we didn't draft him.  If I'm thinking of the correct corner.

 

If yoiu're looking for other Tampa players they drafted.....  

 

Godwin, the WR. He's opposite Evans, the other top drafted WR.   Marpet, the C/G.    Smith, the O-tackle.    White (5th overall)  their great middle linebacker.    Jones, a RB.   Vea, the big DT.     Wirfs,  the O-Tackle.      And I didn't include David, their very good OLB, since I think he was drafted roughly 10 years ago.