MMQB: How the Wentz trade went down

[Superman 9,660]

https://www.si.com/nfl/2021/02/22/mmqb-carson-wentz-trade-washington-front-office-tim-tebow

 

Good stuff included. Wentz requested a trade after the season ended, the Eagles gave his agent permission to talk to other teams, Ballard gave the Eagles a deadline, and now Wentz has been traded. There's some good commentary that fills in some gaps about the way things fell apart in Philly, and how the trade came together.

[PrincetonTiger 8,555]

8 minutes ago, Superman said:

https://www.si.com/nfl/2021/02/22/mmqb-carson-wentz-trade-washington-front-office-tim-tebow

 

Good stuff included. Wentz requested a trade after the season ended, the Eagles gave his agent permission to talk to other teams, Ballard gave the Eagles a deadline, and now Wentz has been traded. There's some good commentary that fills in some gaps about the way things fell apart in Philly, and how the trade came together.

[ColtV 347]

28 minutes ago, Superman said:

https://www.si.com/nfl/2021/02/22/mmqb-carson-wentz-trade-washington-front-office-tim-tebow

 

Good stuff included. Wentz requested a trade after the season ended, the Eagles gave his agent permission to talk to other teams, Ballard gave the Eagles a deadline, and now Wentz has been traded. There's some good commentary that fills in some gaps about the way things fell apart in Philly, and how the trade came together.

Good pickup on the story. Really interesting comparison on the Alex Smith trade to KC.

 

One question I had after reading it: Ballard gave an expiration date on the offer, I wonder what that date was? I'm assuming it was the date the trade went down, and the Eagles waited til the last second to see if a better offer came in.

 

And IF the offer expiration was the 18th that means he would move on to another qb who is currently under contract to secure an agreement before free agency opens, and to me there was only one other option available for trade: Darnold.

[Wentzszn 10,614]

Wow some good stuff. Even though he was bad this year I am still surprised that their wasn’t a bigger market. You have to think the colts needing a QB kind of pushed him to ask for a trade hoping he could end up here. Colts got lucky with a QB that wanted to be here and a agent that helped get him here. 

[buccolts 2,580]

4 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

Wow some good stuff. Even though he was bad this year I am still surprised that their wasn’t a bigger market. You have to think the colts needing a QB kind of pushed him to ask for a trade hoping he could end up here. Colts got lucky with a QB that wanted to be here and a agent that helped get him here. 

 

I'm sure cap room removed a lot of teams interest.

[Arodgers12 361]

Colts could have went to the SB last year had they got past the Bills. They were good enough. You guys think you would have beaten KC?

[CurBeatElite 1,344]

5 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

Wow some good stuff. Even though he was bad this year I am still surprised that their wasn’t a bigger market. You have to think the colts needing a QB kind of pushed him to ask for a trade hoping he could end up here. Colts got lucky with a QB that wanted to be here and a agent that helped get him here. 

 

If you listen to the other post (Cosell on Dakich), you'll notice they mention how Wentz's lower body mechanics seemed way off last year, that Wentz and Pederson were feuding throughout the year, etc.

 

I don't know if I'm comfortable to say Reich is a 'QB whisperer' but he did well with Wentz when they worked together and has a plethora of experience as a former NFL QB and through his coaching experience.  Reich is also a very calm leader, which I think bodes well for Wentz.  My thoughts are, if Reich and his staff can fix Wentz's mechanics, build trust with him and if Wentz can stay healthy, he can be pretty darn good here.  Of course, it'd be a huge plus if our WR corps stays healthy and if we get him another weapon or 2 between TE and WR and if we fix the void left by AC retiring at LT.

[richard pallo 2,997]

26 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

Wow some good stuff. Even though he was bad this year I am still surprised that their wasn’t a bigger market. You have to think the colts needing a QB kind of pushed him to ask for a trade hoping he could end up here. Colts got lucky with a QB that wanted to be here and a agent that helped get him here. 

It looks like we were the 1st team his agent called when given the go ahead from the Eagles.  Who knows maybe we were the only one.  We obviously know why and I think the other teams knew it as well.  One way or the other I think they were working on getting Wentz to the Colts and he was going to have a lot of say on where he went.  Thus the Bears backing off.  A perfect storm for Indy I would say. 

[Wentzszn 10,614]

32 minutes ago, CurBeatElite said:

 

If you listen to the other post (Cosell on Dakich), you'll notice they mention how Wentz's lower body mechanics seemed way off last year, that Wentz and Pederson were feuding throughout the year, etc.

 

I don't know if I'm comfortable to say Reich is a 'QB whisperer' but he did well with Wentz when they worked together and has a plethora of experience as a former NFL QB and through his coaching experience.  Reich is also a very calm leader, which I think bodes well for Wentz.  My thoughts are, if Reich and his staff can fix Wentz's mechanics, build trust with him and if Wentz can stay healthy, he can be pretty darn good here.  Of course, it'd be a huge plus if our WR corps stays healthy and if we get him another weapon or 2 between TE and WR and if we fix the void left by AC retiring at LT.

Sounds like from a interview Pittman did today Wentz will be doing some training in California. Pittman will be joining in. 

[The Fish 1,199]

Here's hoping that Wentz is open to the ego check that is a pro QB being told that the mechanics are off. 

I can see it, it makes his huge wind up, worse and I'm just a guy who knows that saying this on the internet is kinda lame. The "what do you know" is fair, but it is what it is. 

[SC-Coltsfan 96]

Great article. Thanks for posting. Not sure if anyone read the WASHINGTON'S WEALTH OF EXPERIENCE article that followed. 

I didn't know Polian was there now and if Rivera fails it's definitely his fault with all the control he has. I'm quite surprised the GM answers to him. I wonder how many other NFL teams give their head coach the final say? I assume very few.

[Wentzszn 10,614]

The part in there holding team mates accountable is interesting. Did they have a bunch of soft babies on that team that didn’t want to play hard. Sounds like stuff we would hear about Manning holding players accountable. 

[Wentzszn 10,614]

Also there is nothing wrong with asking coaches the why something should be done. From what I read earlier Reich was a bud fan of that from Wentz when drafted.

[RollerColt 2,805]

Sounds like there were issues from both sides. Wentz has an academic mind and was questioning things which is what high ability students are encouraged to do. Problem is, if the instructor feels threatened by these questions, they try to stop it by asserting dominance. Seems like Pederson eventually got tired of this and went with Hurts, hoping that Jalen would be a hidden gem Mahomes type of player. Unfortunately Hurts wasn't exactly inspiring when on the field. 

 

Wentz knows he has the gifts and talent to play, he's just to stay humble and learn from our staff. Thankfully they've got a good rapport at the moment. It will be interesting to see how things unfold. 

[Nickster 951]

1 hour ago, buccolts said:

 

I'm sure cap room removed a lot of teams interest.

But they are low cap hits.

[Fisticuffs111 2,005]

One thing I’m curious about is if he’s gonna want to put in the time/effort into reworking his throw from the ground up. That’s a really painstaking grind.

 

Having a good relationship with Reich is one thing, and I do think he’ll buy into everything else from the start, the playbook, locker room, etc. But there’s a part of me that worries reworking his throw will be a point of debate.

 

Then again, it does say Reich and Flip helped Wentz in that area while with Philly. So I could be just worrying for nothing.

[Dingus McGirt 1,669]

38 minutes ago, The Fish said:

Here's hoping that Wentz is open to the ego check that is a pro QB being told that the mechanics are off. 

I can see it, it makes his huge wind up, worse and I'm just a guy who knows that saying this on the internet is kinda lame. The "what do you know" is fair, but it is what it is. 

Apparently, he got a pretty strong "ego-check" from Pittman.

[Superman 9,660]

28 minutes ago, Nickster said:

But they are low cap hits.

 

There are a ton of teams already over the cap. I'm sure there are a few who might have been interested in Wentz, but couldn't take on a $25m/year player right now.

 

And others who might have been interested for less draft comp, so never engaged once they became aware of Philly's initial asking price.

[Zoltan 762]

 

27 minutes ago, RollerColt said:

Sounds like there were issues from both sides. Wentz has an academic mind and was questioning things which is what high ability students are encouraged to do. Problem is, if the instructor feels threatened by these questions, they try to stop it by asserting dominance. Seems like Pederson eventually got tired of this and went with Hurts, hoping that Jalen would be a hidden gem Mahomes type of player. Unfortunately Hurts wasn't exactly inspiring when on the field. 

 

Wentz knows he has the gifts and talent to play, he's just to stay humble and learn from our staff. Thankfully they've got a good rapport at the moment. It will be interesting to see how things unfold. 

 

^This.

 When someone can explain the reason why you are doing something, it leads to better results and you can improve upon it, but if you have someone who won't explain or like you said try to say the shut up and just do it. Then it makes you think "this guy has no idea what he is talking about." which makes you lose respect for the individual. Frankly most great QBs want to understand the why because that's how they go from running a system to doing all the small things that will elevate the system.

[RollerColt 2,805]

Just now, Zoltan said:

 

 

^This.

 When someone can explain the reason why you are doing something, it leads to better results and you can improve upon it, but if you have someone who won't explain or like you said try to say the shut up and just do it. Then it makes you think "this guy has no idea what he is talking about." which makes you lose respect for the individual. Frankly most great QBs want to understand the why because that's how they go from running a system to doing all the small things that will elevate the system.

I will say this: Reich has experience working with these types of QBs, specifically Manning. He likes his role as a teacher, and that should be a welcoming thing. 

[Smonroe 2,447]

45 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

The part in there holding team mates accountable is interesting. Did they have a bunch of soft babies on that team that didn’t want to play hard. Sounds like stuff we would hear about Manning holding players accountable. 

That’s exactly what I thought.  I read the following as a plus.  I want a QB who demands accountability.

 

Not saying he’s in Manning’s atmosphere as a QB, but it’s a great trait IMO.

 

”Wentz’s Type A personality was part of the equation too. If teammates weren’t working to his standard, that could be an issue. He wanted the whyfrom coaches when they were telling him what to do. And he could be stubborn.”

[Mr. Irrelevant 274]

Very nice read, thanks for sharing!

[coltsfeva 1,199]

I wonder if Wentz has met with Brian Decker yet? I’m pretty sure he has, to assess where he’s at mentally.

 I’m just hoping Wentz has his best years in Indy 

[DougDew 2,784]

Interesting info about Ballard putting a deadline on the offer.

 

The article doesn't really say anything about Wentz or the Eagles than what we already know.  Stuff about putting him on the podium with other teammates, advancing coaches, etc.  I didn't know that Wentz was questioning others' efforts.

 

The guy tore up his knee, but the team moved on to success in spite of that.  Then he doesn't play well, but the team also falls apart, and the coaching staff is broken up via promotion elsewhere and then firing.  Sounds like a perfect storm of a mess.

 

It would be tough to prejudge much.  We've got him for a two year commitment so lets see what happens.  IMO, he'll be more frustrating than Rivers was last year but he is probably also our best immediate option.

 

I see more upside to this acquisition than down side.  His cap doesn't hinder our roster and he is not taking the place that a better QB would have.

[BlackTiger 146]

8 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

There are a ton of teams already over the cap. I'm sure there are a few who might have been interested in Wentz, but couldn't take on a $25m/year player right now.

 

And others who might have been interested for less draft comp, so never engaged once they became aware of Philly's initial asking price.

I think It would have been tough to compete with the Colts on this one.  We had(almost) the most cap space, and Carson wanted to reunite with Reich.

 

Someone could have offered more in a trade, but all Carson had to do was act like he wasnt excited about it to scare them off.

[PrincetonTiger 8,555]

[Wentzszn 10,614]

16 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Interesting info about Ballard putting a deadline on the offer.

 

The article doesn't really say anything about Wentz or the Eagles than what we already know.  Stuff about putting him on the podium with other teammates, advancing coaches, etc.  I didn't know that Wentz was questioning others' efforts.

 

The guy tore up his knee, but the team moved on to success in spite of that.  Then he doesn't play well, but the team also falls apart, and the coaching staff is broken up via promotion elsewhere and then firing.  Sounds like a perfect storm of a mess.

 

It would be tough to prejudge much.  We've got him for a two year commitment so lets see what happens.  IMO, he'll be more frustrating than Rivers was last year but he is probably also our best immediate option.

 

I see more upside to this acquisition than down side.  His cap doesn't hinder our roster and he is not taking the place that a better QB would have.

I don’t like comparing this to Luck or Manning bur he could be the type where he is going to have those bad plays but will give us five or six wow plays a game that help us win.  I would take that over a game manager any day.

 

What a unusual circumstance for Reich to get a QB he helped draft but via trade. 

[DougDew 2,784]

14 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

I don’t like comparing this to Luck or Manning bur he could be the type where he is going to have those bad plays but will give us five or six wow plays a game that help us win.  I would take that over a game manager any day.

 

What a unusual circumstance for Reich to get a QB he helped draft but via trade. 

Compared to Rivers, he'll probably throw for more longer chunkier plays but put the D in bad spots by throwing more picks.  I prefer the Rivers method, personally.

[Wentzszn 10,614]

4 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Compared to Rivers, he'll probably throw for more longer chunkier plays but put the D in bad spots by throwing more picks.  I prefer the Rivers method, personally.

I will take the big play potential. He really has never had a int problem outside of last season. His issues are protecting the ballot when extending the plays and fumbling. 

[Nate! 245]

12 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Compared to Rivers, he'll probably throw for more longer chunkier plays but put the D in bad spots by throwing more picks.  I prefer the Rivers method, personally.

 
Season before Rivers came here, was an interception machine.  I think Wentz rebounds in that department like Rivers did

[NannyMcafee 1,713]

I wonder if Wentz and his agent were privy to other offers or lack thereof, and relayed that to the Colts in some form. 

 

The Colts made an offer and didn't move off of it, and put the pressure on the eagles who had nothing. 

[IanColts22 19]

Well it seems like only the Colts had faith in Carson.  I know the reports was the bears was gunning for Carson too.  But I don’t think so Eagles did that to make us try to pay higher for Carson.  Besides Salary cap issues for all the teams that need a QB we have to ask why was the Colts the only believer in Wentz?  I hope that Frank and Ballard didn’t just put too much faith in Carson I’m PRAYING Carson plays like an MVP again and we come out of this trade like we stole there franchise QB for nothing!!

 

[Shive 2,638]

2 hours ago, Zoltan said:

^This.

 When someone can explain the reason why you are doing something, it leads to better results and you can improve upon it, but if you have someone who won't explain or like you said try to say the shut up and just do it. Then it makes you think "this guy has no idea what he is talking about." which makes you lose respect for the individual.

If this is what was happening with Wentz and the Eagles, I can definitely understand the issues, because I am 100% this type of person. If there's organizational changes, as long as you communicate the why, I'm good. I may not agree with it, but I understand the reason for the change. If you say "this is what we're doing now, because I said so" you've completely lost my buy-in and I tend to get pretty frustrated and defiant.

[EastStreet 10,369]

8 hours ago, CurBeatElite said:

 

If you listen to the other post (Cosell on Dakich), you'll notice they mention how Wentz's lower body mechanics seemed way off last year, that Wentz and Pederson were feuding throughout the year, etc.

 

I don't know if I'm comfortable to say Reich is a 'QB whisperer' but he did well with Wentz when they worked together and has a plethora of experience as a former NFL QB and through his coaching experience.  Reich is also a very calm leader, which I think bodes well for Wentz.  My thoughts are, if Reich and his staff can fix Wentz's mechanics, build trust with him and if Wentz can stay healthy, he can be pretty darn good here.  Of course, it'd be a huge plus if our WR corps stays healthy and if we get him another weapon or 2 between TE and WR and if we fix the void left by AC retiring at LT.

A lot of folks have talked about the mechanics issues. I'm not really on the QB whisperer train either looking at Reich's entire career. I was surprised a little about Reich being the "medium" cop. The dynamics will be interesting too given you'll now have Press Taylor, Brady, and Milanovich in the mix.

 

I do believe the mechanics are the first thing to work on. And sounds like that might be happening in Cali. 

7 hours ago, Chloe6124 said:

Sounds like from a interview Pittman did today Wentz will be doing some training in California. Pittman will be joining in. 

I really hope others will join them. MAC would be good along with Campbell and some of the others. 

7 hours ago, Chloe6124 said:

The part in there holding team mates accountable is interesting. Did they have a bunch of soft babies on that team that didn’t want to play hard. Sounds like stuff we would hear about Manning holding players accountable. 

First and foremost, a guy that's holding others accountable, has to be performing at a level whereas others are open to their player-coaching. That seemed to be the issue, along with the fact he wasn't connecting with others. 

 

There's also the narrative that he was opening resistant to coaching himself, which likely wouldn't help making others open to his coaching.

6 hours ago, Zoltan said:

^This.

 When someone can explain the reason why you are doing something, it leads to better results and you can improve upon it, but if you have someone who won't explain or like you said try to say the shut up and just do it. Then it makes you think "this guy has no idea what he is talking about." which makes you lose respect for the individual. Frankly most great QBs want to understand the why because that's how they go from running a system to doing all the small things that will elevate the system.

Not sure we know enough on this subject to really form an opinion. I'm more than fine with guys asking "why" behind the scenes in the position room. If he was being all "why" on the field in front of others, that could be an issue. It also depends on how he sought the why. 

6 hours ago, Chloe6124 said:

I don’t like comparing this to Luck or Manning bur he could be the type where he is going to have those bad plays but will give us five or six wow plays a game that help us win.  I would take that over a game manager any day.

 

What a unusual circumstance for Reich to get a QB he helped draft but via trade. 

It's going to be interesting to see how it all works out, but Reich's O is read heavy, and so was NDS's. Could be a match made in heaven if the other things like mechanics and personality work out.

6 hours ago, DougDew said:

Compared to Rivers, he'll probably throw for more longer chunkier plays but put the D in bad spots by throwing more picks.  I prefer the Rivers method, personally.

Purely my opinion, but Reich put Rivers in the game manager box a bit. He just didn't get a lot of deep first or second read plays. I'd bet they handle Wentz the same, at least early. IMO, Rivers was role model in the area of reading Ds, anticipation, and in zone read O in general. Wentz also comes from a zone read background, so in theory, should flourish in Reich's O. Will he? That's the million dollar question. 

5 hours ago, NannyMcafee said:

I wonder if Wentz and his agent were privy to other offers or lack thereof, and relayed that to the Colts in some form. 

 

The Colts made an offer and didn't move off of it, and put the pressure on the eagles who had nothing. 

I'm not sure it mattered (knowing other teams' moves). I think Ballard just drew a line early, and I'm very happy, and impressed, that he did, and held to it. I predicted the Eagles gave them permission in another thread, and IMO, seemed like an understandable move for Philly to make. They likely didn't want a stink, and at the same time were trying to keep the relationship good. I still believe they were hoping to salvage things but were just pragmatic about things. 

 

Hopefully it works out for everyone. Wentz, like the article says is a winner regardless. Philly has the 6 to work with. Indy probably has the biggest risk, but also perhaps could be the biggest winner. 

 

I'm just glad we checked the box. I was skeptical about Wentz to start with, and still am to an extent. The more I read about him though, the more I like, and the more optimistic I'm becoming.

[Zoltan 762]

36 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Not sure we know enough on this subject to really form an opinion. I'm more than fine with guys asking "why" behind the scenes in the position room. If he was being all "why" on the field in front of others, that could be an issue. It also depends on how he sought the why.

 

The field is a great time to ask why. if I see something and the coach tells me to do something that doesn't make sense I will want to know why, because the coach might not see what I see or I might not see what he sees. Either way there has to be collaboration no "my way or the highway". Brady and McDaniels are a perfect example they would yell at each other on the sidelines but no one ever got a wounded ego from it.

 

38 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Purely my opinion, but Reich put Rivers in the game manager box a bit. He just didn't get a lot of deep first or second read plays.

it was also a 50-50 that the deep throw was gonna look like a wounded duck when Rivers threw it lol

[EastStreet 10,369]

9 minutes ago, Zoltan said:

 

The field is a great time to ask why. if I see something and the coach tells me to do something that doesn't make sense I will want to know why, because the coach might not see what I see or I might not see what he sees. Either way there has to be collaboration no "my way or the highway". Brady and McDaniels are a perfect example they would yell at each other on the sidelines but no one ever got a wounded ego from it.

I'm not saying a player should never ask why on the field, but the QB room is where most dialog should occur. The field is the place to practice the theory, and work on things you talked about in the QB room. If there's a lot of why on the field, you have to think the QB room dialog wasn't where it needed to be, or potentially was more "challenging" and less agreeable.

9 minutes ago, Zoltan said:

 

it was also a 50-50 that the deep throw was gonna look like a wounded duck when Rivers threw it lol

Not saying Rivers had a cannon (he never ever had a cannon), or his arm was where it used to be, but he was top 10 in deep ball accuracy. Given he as bottom 10ish in deep ball attempts, suggests they should have allowed him more. 

[Zoltan 762]

16 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Not saying Rivers had a cannon (he never ever had a cannon), or his arm was where it used to be, but he was top 10 in deep ball accuracy. Given he as bottom 10ish in deep ball attempts, suggests they should have allowed him more. 

That's where I would say stats and real life differ, more throws would of been more under thrown interceptions

18 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

I'm not saying a player should never ask why on the field, but the QB room is where most dialog should occur. The field is the place to practice the theory, and work on things you talked about in the QB room. If there's a lot of why on the field, you have to think the QB room dialog wasn't where it needed to be, or potentially was more "challenging" and less agreeable.

Oh okay, I get what you are saying

[EastStreet 10,369]

4 minutes ago, Zoltan said:

That's where I would say stats and real life differ, more throws would of been more under thrown interceptions

 

Rivers looked really good on some intermediate pitch and catch (early reads) with MAC and Pascal. We never saw those again. All were great routes by the pass catcher, and great placement and anticipation by Rivers. Several occurred during the MN game if you're interested in googling. We didn't see those much after. 

 

In short, there's a big difference in planned early read deep shots, and under pressure big shots when you're down. Rivers was good at the planned early read ones, and IMO, should have been given more opportunity. The ones in the MN where far from luck. He connected at least twice with MAC on the same type of sail routes, and I think it was more like 3 times. Why we didn't see that later in the season, I have zero idea.

[Zoltan 762]

8 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Rivers looked really good on some intermediate pitch and catch (early reads) with MAC and Pascal. We never saw those again. All were great routes by the pass catcher, and great placement and anticipation by Rivers. Several occurred during the MN game if you're interested in googling. We didn't see those much after. 

 

In short, there's a big difference in planned early read deep shots, and under pressure big shots when you're down. Rivers was good at the planned early read ones, and IMO, should have been given more opportunity. The ones in the MN where far from luck. He connected at least twice with MAC on the same type of sail routes, and I think it was more like 3 times. Why we didn't see that later in the season, I have zero idea.

MN also had a horrendous defense early in the season.

[Wentzszn 10,614]

Our entire offense should open up with Wentz. Taylor and Hines are going to run wild. Going to be fun to have a QB that can stretch the field. He needs to work on protecting the ball and not fumbling but I think that is a easy correct.