Greg Cosell on Carson Wentz: "One of the most talented QBs in the league... last year was bad though"

[stitches]

You guys know I love Greg Cosell and his insight on the game and the players both in the draft and in the NFL. Well Cosell was a guest on Dan Dakich show the other day and you can listen to what he said on Carson Wentz here(Greg Cosell part starts at about 1:32:30):

 

 

 

Some highlights:

- he loved Wentz from the time he was coming into the league from college. Thought he was on his way to becoming top 2-3 QB in the league. He still thinks Wentz is a very talented QB.

- last year was bad though. Surprisingly so. It all started with poor lower body mechanics - base too wide, made him speed up his arm which lead to the ball sailing on him and his accuracy suffering. He was never a precise ball-thrower like Brees, but he was good enough before this year. He was also not throwing the ball to the receivers he should have been throwing to in the context of the passing offense. 

- We don't know what he was doing at the LOS, but he as very active at the LOS. Was he changing plays all the time? We don't know but there was no rhythm to the passing game at all.

- On can the mechanics be fixed - everything below the waist can be fixed and this is what Reich and DeFilippo did with him in 2016 and 2017. You won't change how he delivers the ball - his throwing motion is not long, but it's not compact either. 

- He's heard from people around the league that Wentz is incredibly smart... maybe he's too smart? Maybe he's stubborn and inflexible? Can the mechanics be fixed - absolutely, about the mental part - that's a dynamic between the coach and the player we need to see play out. 

-noone knows what went on in the building but something went wrong between Doug Pederson and Wentz. At its core it's an organizational failure because he was no. 2 pick in the draft, you gave him big money and he's been a good player. In fact, he was close to being a great player.  So somewhere along the line organizationally, this fell apart. 

- Cosell refuses to put the blame of his poor performance on his injuries and injuries to his roster - "at the end you have to isolate the play of the QB. Weapons give you numbers. Like looking at QBs in Alabama - they will always have really good numbers. Does that mean they are the best QB in the draft? Not necessarily." So on Wentz - he didn't have great numbers because of lack of weapons, but that's not how you go about evaluating the QB play. 

- In a 2019 training camp a highly respected NFL GM told Cosell that the two most physically gifted QBs in the league were Mahomes and Wentz. "Now you can adjust that with the addition of Josh Allen or Justin Herbert, but the point I'm trying to make is - Carson Wentz is not used up goods or QB without talent I cannot speak to what's in his mind or what went on in the building in Philadelphia, but he's a talented, talented player and Frank Reich knows, we assume, how to get the best out of him". 

-there's nothing wrong with Wentz physically. He can still drive the football, he still has a big arm. I think he wants to push it down the field, I think he likes to be aggressive. Every offense has short passes, but I think Wentz at his core is an aggressive mindset guy and wants to push it downfield. 

- fascinated by this trade for many reasons. We all know about the OLine, Taylor proved as the year progressed that he's a RB1. I love Michael Pittman, I think he's going to develop into a really good player. I don't know about TY and what he has left... he's getting older. At his best he was incredibly explosive. We are still waiting on Parris Campbell, who has a lot of talent but has been injured. So... we will see. Fascinating trade and a really good place for Wentz. 

 

It pains me to give credit to Dakich, but he again did good job with bringing Cosell on to outline some of the issues with Wentz from last year and what type of player he is. 

 

[lollygagger8]

Here's hoping Reich & Co. can get Wentz back to his former self (before last yr) and the change of scenery will help!

[Jeremy Waldon]

I am really hopeful that being on an upgraded team and having a head coach who has always beleived in him, Wentz can regain his prior perspective and start trusting in the family environment that Ballard has built here. I really beleive the players we have will be the biggest strength to Wentz, they truly fight for each other and expect the person next to them to never give up. Just my opinion but if he can buy into the family culture our players have stood for, Colts Nation could be a force no one wants to play.      COME ON NOW DRINK THE COLTS BLUE KOOLAID 

[TheBlueAndWhite]

I'm hopeful they can get wentz back to the fundamentals, and I hope he can be the next great colts quarterback, but when I watched him last year, he reminded me of the fall from grace that RG3 had after his litany of injuries... I hope he can get better, and I'm confident that Reich knows what he's doing.

[Valpo2004]

A year ago we got Phillip Rivers and people were worried about the 20 picks he threw in 2019.  

 

Frank got him down to 11 picks while Phillip threw 1 more TD than he did in 2019.

 

If Frank believes he can fix Wentz than we have to trust him on that.  He just successfully fixed Rivers.  

 

Frank has earned our trust here.  

[Mackrel829]

15 minutes ago, Valpo2004 said:

A year ago we got Phillip Rivers and people were worried about the 20 picks he threw in 2019.  

 

Frank got him down to 11 picks while Phillip threw 1 more TD than he did in 2019.

 

If Frank believes he can fix Wentz than we have to trust him on that.  He just successfully fixed Rivers.  

 

Frank has earned our trust here.  

 

He's definitely earned the benefit of the doubt. To have the success that the Colts have had over the last three years, with the QB situation that they've had, is very impressive. 

 

I think Ballard has earned the benefit of the doubt too. He doesn't part with picks easily, so I think he has to be confident that Reich can manage Wentz to success. 

 

Ballard and Reich have proven themselves to be one of the best GM-HC pairings in the league imo. It's understandable that some are sceptical about next season, but if they believe that Wentz can lead this team, I don't see any reason that we shouldn't have faith in that. 

[Fisticuffs111]

If we didn’t have Reich I’d be pessimistic about this. But we do, along with other good/familiar coaches, and I’m pretty confident he can at least be better than serviceable.

 

He’s really gotta fix those mechanics. I hope that’s the first thing we read/hear that he’s working on.

[Jeremy Waldon]

Lots of reports that he is contacting teammates, bet he gets with some receivers and backs soon, i think he is going to be out to prove with a good balanced team. He can be the player we need him to be, gotta prove to the team he is willing to work harder than any other QB is 

[Superman]

I said I was gonna post some stuff on my thinking of Wentz, but I can't compare with Greg Cosell, so listen to him.

 

Quote

- last year was bad though. Surprisingly so. It all started with poor lower body mechanics - base too wide, made him speed up his arm which lead to the ball sailing on him and his accuracy suffering. He was never a precise ball-thrower like Brees, but he was good enough before this year. He was also not throwing the ball to the receivers he should have been throwing to in the context of the passing offense. 

 

...

 

- On can the mechanics be fixed - everything below the waist can be fixed and this is what Reich and DeFilippo did with him in 2016 and 2017. You won't change how he delivers the ball - his throwing motion is not long, but it's not compact either. 

 

..

 

-there's nothing wrong with Wentz physically. He can still drive the football, he still has a big arm. 

 

These have been my main thoughts about Wentz. Broken? No. Broken down mechanics? Yes. Still able to play at a high level? I think so. Needs better coaching? Certainly.

[luv_pony_express]

1 hour ago, Mackrel829 said:

He's definitely earned the benefit of the doubt. To have the success that the Colts have had over the last three years, with the QB situation that they've had, is very impressive. 

This can’t be stated often enough.  The NFL is a heavily QB-driven league.  It’s very hard to be successful in it without a top-level signal caller.

 

Unexpectedly losing any player in their prime is a tall task.  But when it’s the franchise QB that you have built your offense around, that task becomes Herculean - as there are only a handful of elite QBs and teams fortunate enough to have them protect them like dear life.

 

For the Colts to still be a top 10 team after Luck’s sudden retirement is remarkable and speaks very well of the team’s staff and culture.

[stitches]

7 minutes ago, Superman said:

I said I was gonna post some stuff on my thinking of Wentz, but I can't compare with Greg Cosell, so listen to him.

 

 

These have been my main thoughts about Wentz. Broken? No. Broken down mechanics? Yes. Still able to play at a high level? I think so. Needs better coaching? Certainly.

I think one of the main questions is whether he is receptive to coaching. Seems like him and Pederson were so far apart that they didn't talk to eachother for 6-8 weeks DURING THE SEASON. I've been listening to some Eagles podcasts and they were pointing out that when Carson would go to the bench during a game, Pederson wouldn't talk to him, while when Hurts was playing he would go straight to Pederson on the sidelines and they would talk stuff out. There was something seriously broken there. Can you imagine your coach and your QB not being able to even talk to eachother professionally during the season or during the games? That sounds insane to me. 

[Superman]

2 minutes ago, stitches said:

I think one of the main questions is whether he is receptive to coaching. Seems like him and Pederson were so far apart that they didn't talk to eachother for 6-8 weeks DURING THE SEASON. I've been listening to some Eagles podcasts and they were pointing out that when Carson would go to the bench during a game, Pederson wouldn't talk to him, while when Hurts was playing he would go straight to Pederson on the sidelines and they would talk stuff out. There was something seriously broken there. Can you imagine your coach and your QB not being able to even talk to eachother professionally during the season or during the games? That sounds insane to me. 

 

Yeah, I mentioned that in another thread. It's absolutely insane. Not having an open line of communication with your primary play caller seems like a disaster. The QBs, especially the starter, should be having regular meetings with the OC and/or head coach, basically the entire offensive decision making crew, no less than weekly. They should be collaborating on the game plan, the script, protections, etc. But they didn't talk for two months, besides text? Crazy.

 

I don't think Wentz will have an issue with coaching regarding his mechanics. What I wonder about is how much truth there is to the reporting that he was changing plays, refusing to run what was called, basically out of spite for Pederson. He didn't appear to be in sync with other parts of the offense, he missed open receivers, he didn't trust the protection (with good reason at times, others he scrambled into pressure, bailed out for no reason), forced the ball into double coverages, and so on.

 

No doubt Reich and staff will include Wentz in game planning, protection meetings, etc. He'll have some freedom at the line, but I think if he's more involved in the game plan to begin with, the tension over play calls will be lessened. End of the day, it doesn't benefit anyone to alienate the starting QB from the primary offensive decision makers, for any period of time.

[throwing BBZ]

 It has the feel of Wentz playing, behaving his way Out of Philly.
And he ended up right where he wanted and needs to be.
 If Rivers was a 7, and Wentz plays as a 7.9, that could be good enough.

[Mr. Irrelevant]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

What I wonder about is how much truth there is to the reporting that he was changing plays, refusing to run what was called, basically out of spite for Pederson. He didn't appear to be in sync with other parts of the offense, he missed open receivers, he didn't trust the protection (with good reason at times, others he scrambled into pressure, bailed out for no reason), forced the ball into double coverages, and so on.

 

 

Yep, and well... it is a sure way to get traded. If that is what is on your mind. 

[superrep1967]

5 hours ago, Mackrel829 said:

 

He's definitely earned the benefit of the doubt. To have the success that the Colts have had over the last three years, with the QB situation that they've had, is very impressive. 

 

I think Ballard has earned the benefit of the doubt too. He doesn't part with picks easily, so I think he has to be confident that Reich can manage Wentz to success. 

 

Ballard and Reich have proven themselves to be one of the best GM-HC pairings in the league imo. It's understandable that some are sceptical about next season, but if they believe that Wentz can lead this team, I don't see any reason that we shouldn't have faith in that. 

Yes your right about Ballard but this was very much driven by Reich. So if this fails I put this solely on Riech if it's successful I put it Solely on Reich.  I know though that Ballard will get blame and praise in this whole thing I guess that's part of being a NFL GM. 

[superrep1967]

3 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Yeah, I mentioned that in another thread. It's absolutely insane. Not having an open line of communication with your primary play caller seems like a disaster. The QBs, especially the starter, should be having regular meetings with the OC and/or head coach, basically the entire offensive decision making crew, no less than weekly. They should be collaborating on the game plan, the script, protections, etc. But they didn't talk for two months, besides text? Crazy.

 

I don't think Wentz will have an issue with coaching regarding his mechanics. What I wonder about is how much truth there is to the reporting that he was changing plays, refusing to run what was called, basically out of spite for Pederson. He didn't appear to be in sync with other parts of the offense, he missed open receivers, he didn't trust the protection (with good reason at times, others he scrambled into pressure, bailed out for no reason), forced the ball into double coverages, and so on.

 

No doubt Reich and staff will include Wentz in game planning, protection meetings, etc. He'll have some freedom at the line, but I think if he's more involved in the game plan to begin with, the tension over play calls will be lessened. End of the day, it doesn't benefit anyone to alienate the starting QB from the primary offensive decision makers, for any period of time.

Great post!

[superrep1967]

This should be a tread of it own but I think if Reich can get Wentz back to MVP level again and he's only 28 and can maybe play another 10 years for us. But what happens to Eason because I've had high hopes for him.  I'm sure he's going to want to be a starter at some point. I'm sure he was upset with the  acquisition of Wentz without the opportunity to show what he can do. He might be trade bate as some point. 

[JoeThornburg]

14 hours ago, stitches said:

I think one of the main questions is whether he is receptive to coaching. Seems like him and Pederson were so far apart that they didn't talk to eachother for 6-8 weeks DURING THE SEASON. I've been listening to some Eagles podcasts and they were pointing out that when Carson would go to the bench during a game, Pederson wouldn't talk to him, while when Hurts was playing he would go straight to Pederson on the sidelines and they would talk stuff out. There was something seriously broken there. Can you imagine your coach and your QB not being able to even talk to eachother professionally during the season or during the games? That sounds insane to me. 

Pederson's coaching style kind of unraveled as well I think. Wentz was on his 3rd offensive coordinator by that point. Pederson does have an NFL background but look past the whole Wentz situation and at another example, like when Pederson benched Hurts in Week 17 with the game in the balance. You have a guy playing well and getting experience in a playoff-like atmosphere as the clear cut #2 and heir apparent should they be moving on from Wentz being benched for the practice squad guy. If that's any indication of how the general climate was organizationally I can see why things were so sour in the building. He had more people than just a couple of QBs calling him out at that point.

[#12.]

I do think Wentz is talented, but this worries me a little considering in 2019 Cosell was very high on Brissett, saying how talented he was.  

[Mackrel829]

11 hours ago, superrep1967 said:

Yes your right about Ballard but this was very much driven by Reich. So if this fails I put this solely on Riech if it's successful I put it Solely on Reich.  I know though that Ballard will get blame and praise in this whole thing I guess that's part of being a NFL GM. 

 

I'm sure Reich was very forthright with his thoughts on Wentz, but there's no way it was solely down to him. Ballard knows his reputation is at stake and wouldn't make this trade unless he was in on Wentz. 

[shasta519]

15 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Yeah, I mentioned that in another thread. It's absolutely insane. Not having an open line of communication with your primary play caller seems like a disaster. The QBs, especially the starter, should be having regular meetings with the OC and/or head coach, basically the entire offensive decision making crew, no less than weekly. They should be collaborating on the game plan, the script, protections, etc. But they didn't talk for two months, besides text? Crazy.

 

I don't think Wentz will have an issue with coaching regarding his mechanics. What I wonder about is how much truth there is to the reporting that he was changing plays, refusing to run what was called, basically out of spite for Pederson. He didn't appear to be in sync with other parts of the offense, he missed open receivers, he didn't trust the protection (with good reason at times, others he scrambled into pressure, bailed out for no reason), forced the ball into double coverages, and so on.

 

No doubt Reich and staff will include Wentz in game planning, protection meetings, etc. He'll have some freedom at the line, but I think if he's more involved in the game plan to begin with, the tension over play calls will be lessened. End of the day, it doesn't benefit anyone to alienate the starting QB from the primary offensive decision makers, for any period of time.

I wonder as well. Sort of almost seems like he tanked his way out of Philly...knowing that would get him traded.

 

I don’t know if I could believe that...but it would explain some of the inexplicable play we saw last season.
 

If it’s true that he changed plays...it seems much more likely that it was some combination of spite and him improvising and playing hero ball because he felt he had to...and that’s who he is.
 

Then again, it also seems like Pederson was done with him anyways...so the mutual respect and collaboration was just nonexistent.

 

Just a bizarre situation for a team and a player after giving that player $128M just before the previous season. How does it deteriorate that fast? 
 

In a situation like that...I think it’s more than just the player or coaching...it’s both at that point. 

 

I have made my uncertainty about Wentz well known...but one thing I am confident about is Reich helping fix the mechanical issues that we saw last season. 

[shasta519]

7 minutes ago, Mackrel829 said:

 

I'm sure Reich was very forthright with his thoughts on Wentz, but there's no way it was solely down to him. Ballard knows his reputation is at stake and wouldn't make this trade unless he was in on Wentz. 

True...but Reich is a buffer for Ballard here. He has always said that he listens to and trusts his coaches about the players they need. I’m sure his main goal was to successfully address the QB position without too much cost and risk...which is why they were exploring multiple options. And he ultimately trusts that Reich is right here.

 

If it did go south...it’s not a good look...but the one answering those tough questions will likely be Reich.

 

[coltsfeva]

  Philadelphia is a dumpster fire: But, Wentz will not only be getting a better coach, he’ll be inheriting a better team and a much better GM. 
   Roseman missed on too many draft picks, FAs and is way over the cap, now scrambling to make things work. The Eagles devalued the LB position and I had heard that their 1st round pick, Dillard, didn’t even get an interview, before they drafted him.

   Wentz is coming to a better organization. That being said, he has no excuses now, should he fail.

[krunk]

I remember the ball used to sail on Luck a lot in his first 2 seasons until he tightened up his mechanics.

[groundnpound]

2 hours ago, coltsfeva said:

  Philadelphia is a dumpster fire: But, Wentz will not only be getting a better coach, he’ll be inheriting a better team and a much better GM. 
   Roseman missed on too many draft picks, FAs and is way over the cap, now scrambling to make things work. The Eagles devalued the LB position and I had heard that their 1st round pick, Dillard, didn’t even get an interview, before they drafted him.

   Wentz is coming to a better organization. That being said, he has no excuses now, should he fail.

 

 

I just can't believe that. I know Philly can be awful, but it's their first rounder. They are not taking him without meeting him IMO. I've been wrong regarding Philadelphia before though, been a Flyers fan my whole life lol.

[Stephen]

22 hours ago, superrep1967 said:

This should be a tread of it own but I think if Reich can get Wentz back to MVP level again and he's only 28 and can maybe play another 10 years for us. But what happens to Eason because I've had high hopes for him.  I'm sure he's going to want to be a starter at some point. I'm sure he was upset with the  acquisition of Wentz without the opportunity to show what he can do. He might be trade bate as some point. 

Yea I feel for Eason  there. I feel like even if Eason looked considerably better in practice  than wentz that they would start Wentz because he's making  25 million.  Eason  may only get a shot if there is a significant  injury  to wentz

[JoeThornburg]

Cosell is a really good analyst. One of, if not the best in the business. He never offers up conjecture, just film and Xs and Os. As a result he's a little dry but he always comes off with really good technical insight. 

[lennymoore24]

Look at it this way. Jacoby Brissett might be the worst QB who has ever put on a jersey for the Colts.  Reich had him at 5-2 at one point, which is like working magic.  So he can make Wentz do great things!

[Four2itus]

On 2/22/2021 at 12:25 PM, superrep1967 said:

I'm sure he (Eason) was upset with the  acquisition of Wentz without the opportunity to show what he can do. He might be trade bate as some point. 

If a 4th round QB is upset at his team acquiring a veteran QB before he has even played a single snap in the NFL, then he needs to be trade bait. 

12 hours ago, Stephen said:

 Eason  may only get a shot if there is a significant  injury  to wentz

At this point in Eason's career, that is a good thing. 

8 minutes ago, lennymoore24 said:

Look at it this way. Jacoby Brissett might be the worst QB who has ever put on a jersey for the Colts.  

Holy buhjesus that is inaccurate. We're you actually serious?

[crazycolt1]

1 hour ago, lennymoore24 said:

Look at it this way. Jacoby Brissett might be the worst QB who has ever put on a jersey for the Colts.  Reich had him at 5-2 at one point, which is like working magic.  So he can make Wentz do great things!

Horse feathers. And you been a Colts fan for how long? 

[NewColtsFan]

1 hour ago, lennymoore24 said:

Look at it this way. Jacoby Brissett might be the worst QB who has ever put on a jersey for the Colts.  Reich had him at 5-2 at one point, which is like working magic.  So he can make Wentz do great things!

I’ve only been a Colts fan for less than 9 years.  But I’ve followed the NFL for roughly 55 years.  Certainly long enough to know that what you say about Jacoby isn’t even a little bit true.   Who were the Colts QBs in 2011, the year Peyton was hurt and several guys filled in.   The Colts went 2-14.   I’m going to go out in a limb and say those guys were worse.  Much worse.

 

And I’d bet there were a number of lean years since the team moved to Indy in the mid-80’s where they had a QB who was worse.   I’m stunned you wrote what you did.   You don’t have to love the guy....   but worst Colts QB ever is a bit much...   

 

 

[superrep1967]

27 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

I’ve only been a Colts fan for less than 9 years.  But I’ve followed the NFL for roughly 55 years.  Certainly long enough to know that what you say about Jacoby isn’t even a little bit true.   Who were the Colts QBs in 2011, the year Peyton was hurt and several guys filled in.   The Colts went 2-14.   I’m going to go out in a limb and say those guys were worse.  Much worse.

 

And I’d bet there were a number of lean years since the team moved to Indy in the mid-80’s where they had a QB who was worse.   I’m stunned you wrote what you did.   You don’t have to love the guy....   but worst Colts QB ever is a bit much...   

 

 

Yeah, Painter was much worse and it's not even close. Then I'd would put Tolzien second place on your dubious list. I wouldn't put Brissett even in the top ten worst I'm talking to Lennymoore24 post on this. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 hours ago, superrep1967 said:

Yeah, Painter was much worse and it's not even close. Then I'd would put Tolzien second place on your dubious list. I wouldn't put Brissett even in the top ten worst I'm talking to Lennymoore24 post on this. 

I know it amazes me the hate JB gets in here from a select few. He wasn't even supposed to be the starter in 2019 and got thrown into that role. He went 7-7 in games he started and finished, average. I have been a Colts fan since 1984 and off the top of my head I can name at least 5 QB's that have been a lot worse than JB in a Colts uniform. Art S, Mike Pagel, Curtis Painter, Dan Orlovsky, Scott Tolzien were way worse. We all know JB isn't a franchise QB but damn he is a great backup and can win a few games.

[jvan1973]

6 hours ago, lennymoore24 said:

Look at it this way. Jacoby Brissett might be the worst QB who has ever put on a jersey for the Colts.  Reich had him at 5-2 at one point, which is like working magic.  So he can make Wentz do great things!

Not close to the worst qb in Colts history.     Not top 10 worst

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

Not close to the worst qb in Colts history.     Not top 10 worst

I know, some in here are delusional. I named 5 QB's above that were way worse without even thinking.

[crazycolt1]

5 hours ago, superrep1967 said:

Yeah, Painter was much worse and it's not even close. Then I'd would put Tolzien second place on your dubious list. I wouldn't put Brissett even in the top ten worst I'm talking to Lennymoore24 post on this. 

Kerry Collins may be the worst? 

[2006Coltsbestever]

7 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Kerry Collins may be the worst? 

As far as QB's that have started in an Indianapolis uniform - Art S, Mike Pagel, Paul Justin, Curtis Painter, Dan Orlovsky, Kerry Collins, Charlie Whitehurst, and Scott Tolzien were way worse than JB. I won't take it further than that but that is now 8 QB's that were bad/terrible in an Indianapolis Colts uniform. I would say based on potential, Jeff George was actually worse than JB. George went 1-15 in 1991 and was a huge bust here.

[Zoltan]

So I don't know how true the reports are that they hadn't talked for like 6 weeks, I know Shefter reported this, but I also saw/heard that you can literally see Hurts, Wentz and Pederson talking on the sideline during games, after Hurts took over as QB.

[Stephen]

9 hours ago, lennymoore24 said:

Look at it this way. Jacoby Brissett might be the worst QB who has ever put on a jersey for the Colts.  Reich had him at 5-2 at one point, which is like working magic.  So he can make Wentz do great things!

Kerry collins, curtis  painter, dan orlovsky,  Scott  tolzien  were all worse than Brissett. 

[Superman]

1 hour ago, Stephen said:

Kerry collins, curtis  painter, dan orlovsky,  Scott  tolzien  were all worse than Brissett. 

 

It's not even close. JB replaced Tolzien after less than one game, and played significantly better than him, with two weeks of practice and about 20% of the playbook.