QB Discussion and Preference Poll - Part 2.5

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44 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

 

Is Ertz injured? I'm not a fan of Irv. He has not shown me enough to merit his being drafted in the 2nd.

No idea what the deal is with him but he hasn't been good and he's being paid a load of money. 

[Moosejawcolt]

28 minutes ago, Zoltan said:

I always have a hard time with anonymous sources especially with the Eagles, because their locker room has been becoming more and more toxic every year.

 

They also say that the offensive line was good and the sacks were Wentz fault, I have a hard time believing that because their OL was practice squad and backups for most of the season, with their starting LT and RG starting the season injured (The RG Brandon Brooks being their best offensive lineman). They also lost Lane johnson for awhile and 2 other guards to IR.

 

Overall I see this as a Homer Eagles article that is justifying getting rid of Wentz.

U also say that u have a hard time with anonymous sources. However, u go on to say that the Eagles locker room has been toxic  for years. Where try getting your information from regarding the Eagles locker room? I am a Wentz fan but no doubt he comes with baggage. If he was clean, he wouldn't b on the market and there would b a lot more teams interested and willing to give up more than 2 2nds.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

So someone on twitter responded to me and said it’s all over Phili radio stations that it is thought to be the eagles don’t want to send Wentz to the colts because they believe Reich will have him looking good.

[Zoltan]

17 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

U also say that u have a hard time with anonymous sources. However, u go on to say that the Eagles locker room has been toxic  for years. Where try getting your information from regarding the Eagles locker room? I am a Wentz fan but no doubt he comes with baggage. If he was clean, he wouldn't b on the market and there would b a lot more teams interested and willing to give up more than 2 2nds.

The reason I have a hard time with anonymous is because it means it's a decaying locker room and someone is trying to put blame on someone else, therefore it may or may not be true.

 

The fact that Alshon Jeffrey was exposed to being an anonymous source, I think 2 years ago. When he was complaining that Wentz threw the ball to Ertz to much and not to his WRs. One thing I have learned working on a firefighter crew, it only takes one toxic personality to breakdown the entire group because it spreads like cancer.

 

 

I'm not saying Wentz is clean.

[Moosejawcolt]

1 minute ago, Zoltan said:

The reason I have a hard time with anonymous is because it means it's a decaying locker room and someone is trying to put blame on someone else, therefore it may or may not be true.

 

The fact that Alshon Jeffrey was exposed to being an anonymous source, I think 2 years ago. When he was complaining that Wentz threw the ball to Ertz to much and not to his WRs. One thing I have learned working on a firefighting crew, it only takes one toxic personality to breakdown the entire group because it spreads like cancer.

 

 

I'm not saying Wentz is clean.

If one player is allowed to destroy the locker room that doesn't say much about the other players. Jeffrey was complaining bout another player receiving to many targets. Maybe not appropriate but I would not describe that as toxic behaviour. Wrs  are divas and usually treated as such. 

[Fluke_33]

The Philadelphia Inquirer article speculating on the reasons the trade is taking so long:

 

 Carson Wentz: Why is it taking Eagles so long to trade him? - The Morning Call (mcall.com)

https://www.mcall.com/sports/eagles/mc-spt-eagles-carson-wentz-trade-taking-so-long-20210215-yafix4amavgajg6amolssyyyae-story.html

 

 

[The Fish]

9 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

So someone on twitter responded to me and said it’s all over Phili radio stations that it is thought to be the eagles don’t want to send Wentz to the colts because they believe Reich will have him looking good.

 

Funny for several reasons, but not unbelievable.

Also, that can't really be a primary consideration for any team trading anyone. It's not about the guy you're getting rid of.. Roseman did just win a SB a few years ago, he can't be this bad at this..

[NFLfan]

Found this in MMQB:

 

I think the Eagles have to trade Carson Wentz soon. The market’s not strong for Wentz for a variety of reasons. The contract (a team trading for him is locked in for two years, at $47.4 million) is one issue. The tape, which was horrific last year, is another. A third less-talked-about problem is the growing reputation Wentz has of not reacting well to hard coaching. All of which is why the Eagles’ initial asking price—the return the Lions got for Matthew Stafford—was enough of a non-starter for some teams to drop out of the running altogether. Ultimately, I think GM Howie Roseman’s goal, in asking for so much, was to come away with a 1 and something else. At this point, I don’t think he gets a first-rounder for Wentz at all, without some strings (maybe a salary dump or picks going back) attached. Which, if you look at what we were saying when Wentz was benched in December, isn’t all that surprising. This is just who Wentz is as a quarterback right now. And the proof is there in that the teams that know him best, the Bears (John DeFilippo) and Colts (Frank Reich, Press Taylor, Mike Groh) haven’t put together a strong enough offer to get Philly to jump. My guess is he lands in Chicago, and that’d be good for him. DeFilippo played the bad cop in Philly for Wentz over the quarterback’s first two years in the league, and going there would force Wentz to confront the lingering hard-coaching question head on. (Indy would be good for him, too, for a lot of obvious reasons.)

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/2021/02/15/mmqb-todd-inside-bowles-game-plan-for-mahomes-texans-mess-trevor-lawrence-pro-day

 

(Very long articles included. Encourage you to read them.)

[Moosejawcolt]

4 minutes ago, The Fish said:

 

Funny for several reasons, but not unbelievable.

Also, that can't really be a primary consideration for any team trading anyone. It's not about the guy you're getting rid of.. Roseman did just win a SB a few years ago, he can't be this bad at this..

Kind of like when Bellichek trading Garapolo.  Got a 2nd for him. He just wanted him out and ended the drama. 

[Zoltan]

9 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

If one player is allowed to destroy the locker room that doesn't say much about the other players. Jeffrey was complaining bout another player receiving to many targets. Maybe not appropriate but I would not describe that as toxic behaviour. Wrs  are divas and usually treated as such. 

 

I can tell you from personal experience working fires when you have a team of people that spend a lot of time together, I've seen good crews go bad because of it. If a toxic personality is not dealt with early it will spread to the rest of the team and all cohesion goes bad. That's why culture is important because a good culture can address these things before they spread.

 

I would suggest looking at all the drama with the eagles in 2019, they were falling apart internally.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

5 minutes ago, Zoltan said:

 

I can tell you from personal experience working fires when you have a team of people that spend a lot of time together, I've seen good crews go bad because of it. If a toxic personality is not dealt with early it will spread to the rest of the team and all cohesion goes bad. That's why culture is important because a good culture can address these things before they spread.

 

I would suggest looking at all the drama with the eagles in 2019, they were falling apart internally.

Turns out maybe Reich was the reason for that SB run. Apparently he is loved in Phili.

[Zoltan]

2 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

Turns out maybe Reich was the reason for that SB run. Apparently he is loved in Phili.

I swear Philly fans ridiculous because they either love you or hate you, no in-between lol

 

Whenever I think of their fan-base I think about when McNabb was drafted and the hail of boos that happened or the greasing of light poles lol

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

8 minutes ago, Zoltan said:

I swear Philly fans ridiculous because they either love you or hate you, no in-between lol

 

Whenever I think of their fan-base I think about when McNabb was drafted and the hail of boos that happened or the greasing of light poles lol

Or the booing of Santa Clause lol. Didn’t they throw snow balls at Santa?

[NFLfan]

39 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

So someone on twitter responded to me and said it’s all over Phili radio stations that it is thought to be the eagles don’t want to send Wentz to the colts because they believe Reich will have him looking good.

 

You believe this person? 

[NFLfan]

10 minutes ago, Zoltan said:

I swear Philly fans ridiculous because they either love you or hate you, no in-between lol

 

Whenever I think of their fan-base I think about when McNabb was drafted and the hail of boos that happened or the greasing of light poles lol

 

Strangely enough, I was surprised to see on one of their sites that with over 4000 votes, 77% want to keep Jalen Hurts as QB. The option was Hurts or draft a QB. I thought they would want to draft one. 

 

https://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2021/2/12/22280393/nfl-draft-mailbag-take-quarterback-early-stick-jalen-hurts-2021-quarterback-eagles-philadelphia-qb

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

5 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

 

You believe this person? 

It was just a eagles fan who responded to one of my comments. They weren’t trying to make news or trying to be a insider. I have actually heard a eagles podcast say the same thing.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Beginning to think this is true.

 

[danlhart87]

I saw that Wentz is 28 and Darnold is only 23.

 

Go the younger route Ballard. His price would most likely be similar to what CB already had offered in the rumored Jaws deal. 

 

 

 

 

[Four2itus]

2 minutes ago, danlhart87 said:

I saw that Wentz is 28 and Darnold is only 23.

 

Go the younger route Ballard. His price would most likely be similar to what CB already had offered in the rumored Jaws deal. 

 

 

 

 

Assuming that 2 second rounders were offered, what in the heck has Darnold done to deserve as much contract as Wentz?

[danlhart87]

I'm going to settle this argument once and for all.

 

Don't under any circumstances ever trade for what a player was! Trade what a player is! Tons of posters are talking about Wentz and his ability to return to form but who knows if Colts ever see 2017 version again. Wentz value is shot right now because most GMs are skeptical of his contract and his ability to return to form. 

 

There's 0 reason whatsoever to offer a 1st even if Ertz is packaged in the deal. 

 

Darnold on the other hand has been handed a rough hand the entire time and the only way to go from there is up. 

 

Regardless where Darnold ends up it will be interesting to see how he does without Gase.

[danlhart87]

3 minutes ago, Four2itus said:

Assuming that 2 second rounders were offered, what in the heck has Darnold done to deserve as much contract as Wentz?

The starting QB trade market is overvalued unfortunately due to the Rams trade. Jets will want a 1 but I would offer 2 2s.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

14 minutes ago, danlhart87 said:

I saw that Wentz is 28 and Darnold is only 23.

 

Go the younger route Ballard. His price would most likely be similar to what CB already had offered in the rumored Jaws deal. 

 

 

 

 

Wentz only has two more years of experience then Darnold. Darnold hasn’t shown anything. Even good Qb can rise above bad organizations.

[Restored]

25 minutes ago, danlhart87 said:

I'm going to settle this argument once and for all.

 

Don't under any circumstances ever trade for what a player was! Trade what a player is! Tons of posters are talking about Wentz and his ability to return to form but who knows if Colts ever see 2017 version again. Wentz value is shot right now because most GMs are skeptical of his contract and his ability to return to form. 

 

There's 0 reason whatsoever to offer a 1st even if Ertz is packaged in the deal. 

 

Darnold on the other hand has been handed a rough hand the entire time and the only way to go from there is up. 

 

Regardless where Darnold ends up it will be interesting to see how he does without Gase.

 

By your logic, the Colts should've never signed Rivers because his most recent season prior to Indy was a statistically terrible season with the Chargers.

 

I also find it interesting that you make excuses for Darnold's surroundings but don't seem to afford the same benefit to Wentz.

 

The difference is, Wentz HAS shown the ability to play well. Darnold simply has not.

[csmopar]

1 hour ago, NFLfan said:

 

I will take him over most QB. 

 

I could not find the article from PFF that cites the stats; it is probably available to those who subscribe to PFF. Anyway, here is an article from PFF about Wilson and his "inviting" hits.

 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-russell-wilson-sacks-seattle-seahawks

it is a seperate article linked at the bottom of the article you linked, It might be behind a pay wall, I did do a trial paid membership for PFF a few weeks back but im not sure what is and isn't behind a pay wall.

 

"Since being drafted in the third round in 2012, Wilson has been sacked a whopping 394 times, nearly 75 more times than any other quarterback. Out of 20 quarterbacks with at least 2,000 pass attempts during that span, he also tops the list being sacked on 8.3 percent of his drop backs. Those numbers don't consider all of the times he has used his legs and improvisation skills to evade pressure in situations other quarterbacks would have been sacked.

While Wilson's frustrations are certainly warranted, however, the Seahawks by-and-large did a better job of protecting him in 2020. The team finished ninth overall in ESPN's Pass Block Win Rate metric and the quarterback himself was charged with 14 sacks by Pro Football Focus, the second-most for any signal caller in the league. His propensity for extending plays and holding onto the football too long certainly have played a role in his high sack totals over the years."

[PrincetonTiger]

25 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

Wentz only has two more years of experience then Darnold. Darnold hasn’t shown anything. Even good Qb can rise above bad organizations.

Who

[csmopar]

6 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

Who

Baker Mayfield, Peyton Manning just two quick examples

[NFLfan]

23 minutes ago, csmopar said:

it is a seperate article linked at the bottom of the article you linked, It might be behind a pay wall, I did do a trial paid membership for PFF a few weeks back but im not sure what is and isn't behind a pay wall.

 

"Since being drafted in the third round in 2012, Wilson has been sacked a whopping 394 times, nearly 75 more times than any other quarterback. Out of 20 quarterbacks with at least 2,000 pass attempts during that span, he also tops the list being sacked on 8.3 percent of his drop backs. Those numbers don't consider all of the times he has used his legs and improvisation skills to evade pressure in situations other quarterbacks would have been sacked.

While Wilson's frustrations are certainly warranted, however, the Seahawks by-and-large did a better job of protecting him in 2020. The team finished ninth overall in ESPN's Pass Block Win Rate metric and the quarterback himself was charged with 14 sacks by Pro Football Focus, the second-most for any signal caller in the league. His propensity for extending plays and holding onto the football too long certainly have played a role in his high sack totals over the years."

 

Thanks. Given that information, the guy is even more impressive than I thought. He puts up great numbers despite being sacked a lot more than others. And it isn't as if he has had the best weapons. He never had the top-tier WRs like Julio Jones, Hopkins, or Diggs.  

 

You know an OL is bad when a defender is in one's face as soon as he gets the ball from under center. That is why Wilson has to run around. A line like that of the Colts would make him even more successful. 

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[PrincetonTiger]

1 minute ago, csmopar said:

Baker Mayfield, Peyton Manning just two quick examples

They weren’t to bad franchises

[csmopar]

3 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

They weren’t to bad franchises

the browns were.

 

and so were the Colts leading up to Peyton's debut.   I've been a colts fan my entire life but the 80s thru the late 90s, we had a suckful team. 

[shasta519]

33 minutes ago, danlhart87 said:

I'm going to settle this argument once and for all.

 

Don't under any circumstances ever trade for what a player was! Trade what a player is! Tons of posters are talking about Wentz and his ability to return to form but who knows if Colts ever see 2017 version again. Wentz value is shot right now because most GMs are skeptical of his contract and his ability to return to form. 

 

There's 0 reason whatsoever to offer a 1st even if Ertz is packaged in the deal. 

 

Darnold on the other hand has been handed a rough hand the entire time and the only way to go from there is up. 

 

Regardless where Darnold ends up it will be interesting to see how he does without Gase.

 

No kidding. This is the argument everyone made against Foles when people talked about his SB run...that is was years ago...and a SSS.

 

Speaking of Foles...he was a Pro Bowler at age 24. At age 28...he was back in PHI as the backup QB after spending a season in KC as the backup QB.

 

I mean Jared Goff was a Pro Bowler in 2017 and 2018 (at age 23-24). He led a team to the SB. And two years later...the LAR had to give up capital for DET to take him on. 

 

Breakout age is important...but so is career arch. Good QBs typically ascend and peak during their prime. Wentz is headed in the opposite direction. It might just be an outlier...but I would rather gamble on Darnold and his age...than Wentz...especially with the difference in cost.

[shasta519]

8 minutes ago, csmopar said:

Baker Mayfield, Peyton Manning just two quick examples

 

Baker didn't exactly overcome a bad org. People thought he was a bust after last season...when he had poor coaching.

[NFLfan]

From: https://www.skysports.com/nfl/news/12118/12214130/nfls-quarterback-carousel-is-picking-up-speed-where-next-for-sam-darnold-deshaun-watson-and-carson-wentz

 

Regarding Darnold:

 

The talent is there, no question. But he's a player in desperate need of a favourable situation with the supporting cast capable of rebuilding his confidence. The prospect of him behind a competent offensive line is intriguing, whether that be him moving on elsewhere or the Jets adding more pieces in the trenches alongside offensive tackle Mekhi Becton, who showed promising glimpses in his rookie year.

 

Should he depart, Indianapolis feels like an ideal landing spot.

[csmopar]

4 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

From: https://www.skysports.com/nfl/news/12118/12214130/nfls-quarterback-carousel-is-picking-up-speed-where-next-for-sam-darnold-deshaun-watson-and-carson-wentz

 

Regarding Darnold:

 

The talent is there, no question. But he's a player in desperate need of a favourable situation with the supporting cast capable of rebuilding his confidence. The prospect of him behind a competent offensive line is intriguing, whether that be him moving on elsewhere or the Jets adding more pieces in the trenches alongside offensive tackle Mekhi Becton, who showed promising glimpses in his rookie year.

 

Should he depart, Indianapolis feels like an ideal landing spot.

[NFLfan]

Just now, csmopar said:

 

Where can I send you the Pepto-bismol? 

[csmopar]

Just now, NFLfan said:

 

Where can I send you the Pepto-bismol? 

to the entire Colts fan base if we go after and get Darnold

[NewColtsFan]

1 hour ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Kind of like when Bellichek trading Garapolo.  Got a 2nd for him. He just wanted him out and ended the drama. 

Belichick reportedly didn’t want to do that trade.    And was reportedly told to by Kraft.  NFL people  thought the deal didn’t bring back enough to the Pats. 

[danlhart87]

1 minute ago, NewColtsFan said:

Belichick reportedly didn’t want to do that trade.    And was reportedly told to by Kraft.  NFL people  thought the deal didn’t bring back enough to the Pats. 

I still believe Jimmy finds his way back to NE next season 

[zibby43]

The longer this goes, the more comfortable I am with the notion of moving up the board.

 

 

[NFLfan]

3 minutes ago, danlhart87 said:

I still believe Jimmy finds his way back to NE next season 

 

How about Jimmy G for the Colts?