"If you're in in March, you need to be in for the entire season"

[EastStreet]

@CurBeatElite I didn't make it through the entirety of the all the exchanges above, but are you trying to say AL was on the same level as PM? Not asking for a friend. 

[CurBeatElite]

2 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

@CurBeatElite I didn't make it through the entirety of the all the exchanges above, but are you trying to say AL was on the same level as PM? Not asking for a friend. 

Andrew Luck:

Awards and highlights[edit]

4× Pro Bowl (2012, 2013, 2014, 2018)

NFL passing touchdowns leader (2014)

NFL Comeback Player of the Year (2018)

2× AFC Offensive Player of the Month (November 2014, November 2018)

5× AFC Offensive Player of the Week (Week 9, 2012; Week 7, 2013; Week 3, 2014; Week 13, 2016; Week 11, 2018)

3× Pepsi NFL Rookie of the Week (Week 3, 2012; Week 5, 2012; Week 8, 2012)

Records and achievements[edit]

Luck's jersey exhibited at the Pro Football Hall of Fame

Most passing yards in a single game by a rookie quarterback: 433 (vs Miami Dolphins) (11/4/12)[140]

Most passing yards by a rookie in a single season (4,374)[59]

Most game-winning drives by a rookie quarterback (7)[141]

Most passing yards for a quarterback through his first 2 seasons (8,196)[142]

Most passing yards for a quarterback through his first 3 seasons (12,688)[90]

Most passing yards for a quarterback through his first 5 postseason games (1,703)[143]

Most consecutive 350-yard passing games on the road (5)[86]

Most pass attempts per game, career: (38.3)[144]

Fifth highest passing yards total in a playoff game (443) (Wild-Card game against the Kansas City Chiefs on January 4, 2014).[74]

First quarterback to throw for more than 350 yards in five consecutive road games[145]

First quarterback to throw for 370 yards or more, 4 touchdowns, and have a completion percentage 70 percent or above in consecutive games[80]

Third player to throw for 3,000 yards in the first nine games, alongside Peyton Manning and Drew Brees (twice)[146]

Colts franchise records[edit]

Most passing yards in a single season (4,761, 2014)[147]

Most passing yards by a rookie quarterback in a single season (4,374)[148]

Most passing yards by a rookie quarterback in a single game (433)[148]

Most pass attempts by a rookie quarterback in a single season (627)[148]

Most pass completions by a rookie quarterback in a single season (339)[148]

Most pass completions by a rookie quarterback in a single game (31)[148]

Most passing touchdowns by a rookie quarterback in a single game (4)[148]

Highest passer rating by a rookie quarterback with a minimum of 100 attempts (76.5)[148]

Highest interception percentage by a rookie quarterback with a minimum of 100 attempts (2.87)[148]

[Tsarquise]

8 minutes ago, CurBeatElite said:

 

 

 

First, Peyton's worst OL he ever had was a far better line than Luck ever had.  Second, as you point out a bursa sac issue in the knee pales in comparison to a lacerated kidney (which Luck played through) and the other injuries Luck sustained.  Third, Peyton was an excellent commander at the line of scrimmage and was very good at reading defenses - his style of command was the first time anyone had ever seen a QB behave the way he did as a QB - but just because Luck didn't put on the same show doesn't mean he wasn't exceptional at reading defenses.  Not to take anything away from Peyton, but Luck was often running for his life almost before he had the ball in his hands, his OL was usually that bad.   Luck's style of play was different than Peyton's, that is for sure and he definitely probably should have learned to slide to avoid some big hits when he was scrambling, but he was also getting crushed in the pocket and was playing in an entirely different type of offense than Peyton (e.g., Arians' 'don't risk it, no biscuit' O required Luck to extend plays longer than Peyton/Tom Moore's O to take deep shots down the field).  In addition, Tom Moore was the O-coordinator with Indy from 1998-2008, then was heavily involved with the Colts in 2009 and 2010 -- (that's the first 13 years of Peyton's career playing with the same OC) -- Luck, on the other hand had 3 different OC's in his first 4 seasons (Arians, Pep, Pep, Pep/Chud) and when he came back from missing a year he had another system in place with Reich/Sirianni.  Finally, from all accounts I've heard (McAfee, Frank Gore, etc. on the player end and then all the media reports), Grigson had a completely dysfunctional organization (e.g., treating players poorly, forcing Pagano to play certain players who Grigs made bad investments in, initiating deflate gate, etc.) and unlike Polian, who successfully built a solid OL for Peyton and gave him tools he needed at RB, WR, TE to succeed, Grigson failed miserably (not that he didn't try) in giving Luck an OL or the proper weapons (e.g., T-Rich, DHB, Hakeem Nicks, Dorsett) to thrive and, for the most part, Luck thrived anyway.  

 

You throw all that stuff into the equation, plus Luck's injuries early in his career and I can see pretty easily why he didn't want to stick around.  Peyton had a HOF head coach for most of his career (and a solid, experienced one to start his career) as well as a HOF GM -- Irsay basically ran an experiment with Luck in hiring Grigs and Pagano (both first timers in lead roles) and unfortunately, that experiment ultimately failed Andrew Luck.

 

 

I'm really not sure about that.. Luck is about as mentally sharp as any player who has ever played in the NFL.  He had to seek out his own doctors after the Colts didn't properly figure out what the heck was going on with his shoulder...  they then misdiagnosed his ankle/calf injury for a pretty long time.  It sounds as though he had no idea if he was risking serious further injury playing on it and it doesn't sound like the Colts organization was giving him any confidence in an answer.

 

 

TY has also been battling nagging injuries which have definitely been slowing him down.  He played 14 games in 2018 with Luck at the helm, only 10 games in 2019 and 15 in 2020... after missing only 2 games in his first 6 seasons and stringing seasons 4, 5, 6 together with 16 games played, he hasn't been able to play a full 16 games since and there have been numerous games in which he has played where he is noticeably gimpy.

 

I like TY, but even at his peak production he never performed like a true standout #1 WR (aside from 2016 when he had 91 receptions and 1,448 yards .. though 91 receptions had him tied for 10th most in the league).  He hasn't been able to go 16 games in 3 straight seasons... his small size makes him almost entirely reliant on speed/quickness/route running and there have been times over the past 3 years when he is playing at less than 100% and it's very noticeable that his play diminishing drastically when he's hobbled.

 

 

He played through a game with a ruptured kidney.......... please stop.

 

 

See above... this comment is dumb.

 

 

He didn't disclose his leg injury.. the Colts' organization did and they screwed it up many times.

H

 

Luck actually had the best rookie year of any QB ever and was well on his way to be greater than Peyton... that's a joke that he "was never going to be as great as Peyton." -- Luck by every metric was better than Peyton every year he played at that stage of his career (in fact he is the earliest to ever reach  4,000 yards and his first 3-4 years are the best ever to start a career -- he took a 2-14 team to11-5 as a Rookie.. Peyton was 3-13 as a Rookie). 

 

 

Luck broke every one of Peyton's records at a younger age/playing career.  The only thing you can knock him on is he threw interceptions.  He was on his way to being to the point that Peyton wasn't a pimple on his butt.... dumb post. 

Saying that Manning got rid of the ball quicker than Luck, then proceeding to bet that Manning would have been hit less behind the same O-line that Luck played behind is dumb? 

[EastStreet]

13 minutes ago, CurBeatElite said:

Andrew Luck:

Awards and highlights[edit]

4× Pro Bowl (2012, 2013, 2014, 2018)

NFL passing touchdowns leader (2014)

NFL Comeback Player of the Year (2018)

2× AFC Offensive Player of the Month (November 2014, November 2018)

5× AFC Offensive Player of the Week (Week 9, 2012; Week 7, 2013; Week 3, 2014; Week 13, 2016; Week 11, 2018)

3× Pepsi NFL Rookie of the Week (Week 3, 2012; Week 5, 2012; Week 8, 2012)

Records and achievements[edit]

Luck's jersey exhibited at the Pro Football Hall of Fame

Most passing yards in a single game by a rookie quarterback: 433 (vs Miami Dolphins) (11/4/12)[140]

Most passing yards by a rookie in a single season (4,374)[59]

Most game-winning drives by a rookie quarterback (7)[141]

Most passing yards for a quarterback through his first 2 seasons (8,196)[142]

Most passing yards for a quarterback through his first 3 seasons (12,688)[90]

Most passing yards for a quarterback through his first 5 postseason games (1,703)[143]

Most consecutive 350-yard passing games on the road (5)[86]

Most pass attempts per game, career: (38.3)[144]

Fifth highest passing yards total in a playoff game (443) (Wild-Card game against the Kansas City Chiefs on January 4, 2014).[74]

First quarterback to throw for more than 350 yards in five consecutive road games[145]

First quarterback to throw for 370 yards or more, 4 touchdowns, and have a completion percentage 70 percent or above in consecutive games[80]

Third player to throw for 3,000 yards in the first nine games, alongside Peyton Manning and Drew Brees (twice)[146]

Colts franchise records[edit]

Most passing yards in a single season (4,761, 2014)[147]

Most passing yards by a rookie quarterback in a single season (4,374)[148]

Most passing yards by a rookie quarterback in a single game (433)[148]

Most pass attempts by a rookie quarterback in a single season (627)[148]

Most pass completions by a rookie quarterback in a single season (339)[148]

Most pass completions by a rookie quarterback in a single game (31)[148]

Most passing touchdowns by a rookie quarterback in a single game (4)[148]

Highest passer rating by a rookie quarterback with a minimum of 100 attempts (76.5)[148]

Highest interception percentage by a rookie quarterback with a minimum of 100 attempts (2.87)[148]

OK, where's PM's comps?

 

Did you really mean to add that last line lol

 

There's a lot of context missing too. It seemed that you were suggesting PM had all gravy supporting casts.

[CurBeatElite]

27 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

OK, where's PM's comps?

 

Did you really mean to add that last line lol

 

There's a lot of context missing too. It seemed that you were suggesting PM had all gravy supporting casts.

 Luck threw for more yards than any Colts QB in any season.. he was awesome from day 1..Peyton sucked his rookie year.. yes, I meant to include that list.

 

[EastStreet]

5 minutes ago, CurBeatElite said:

 Luck threw for more yards than any Colts QB in any season.. he was awesome from day 1..Peyton sucked his rookie year.. yes, I meant to include that list.

 

Context would say they changed rules that allowed QBs and WRs a bit easier lives during the Luck years.

 

Manning's career PR was better. His QBR, completion %, ANY/A, and win %, were all significantly better. Luck's TD to INT ratio was backwards in the playoffs. Manning missed games in 2 of 18 seasons. Luck missed games in 3 of 7. Luck never got close to PM's Colt's TD record, let alone his Denver TD record.

 

It's not even close.

 

 

 

[CurBeatElite]

14 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Context would say they changed rules that allowed QBs and WRs a bit easier lives during the Luck years.

 

Manning's career PR was better. His QBR, completion %, ANY/A, and win %, were all significantly better. Luck's TD to INT ratio was backwards in the playoffs. Manning missed games in 2 of 18 seasons. Luck missed games in 3 of 7. Luck never got close to PM's Colt's TD record, let alone his Denver TD record.

 

It's not even close.

 

 

 

 

The only reason it isn't close is longevity.  That is the only reason... you can keep the fact that Peyton had the same OC for his first 13 seasons and Luck had 5 in his 7. 

 

To say Luck couldn't have touched Peyton's career numbers if he was healthy for the same amount of time and played 18-20 seasons is the dumbest thing I probably have ever read from you.  

[EastStreet]

5 minutes ago, CurBeatElite said:

 

The only reason it isn't close is longevity.  That is the only reason... you can keep the fact that Peyton had the same OC for his first 13 seasons and Luck had 5 in his 7. 

 

To say Luck couldn't have touched Peyton's career numbers if he was healthy for the same amount of time and played 18-20 seasons is the dumbest thing I probably have ever read from you.  

Thing is, Peyton was basically his own OC and HC. So was AL after Arians left if we're honest. 

It's not longevity. Pick a period and do a custom average. You'd have to heavily cheery pick years to change the outcome.

[Nickster]

On 2/4/2021 at 9:15 PM, Tsarquise said:

Nope, Manning would have  neutralized the O-line with his quick release. He was the fastest shooter in the west. 

 

Luck took a long time to get rid of the ball.

 

https://www.pff.com/news/qbs-in-focus-time-to-throw

The problem was pressure between the b gaps.  Manning would have had trouble.  Manning always had good protection through the C/G.  It was immediate pressure up the middle with non NFL type Gs and Cs.

[Tsarquise]

2 hours ago, Nickster said:

The problem was pressure between the b gaps.  Manning would have had trouble.  Manning always had good protection through the C/G.  It was immediate pressure up the middle with non NFL type Gs and Cs.

I can see that. 

 

But if they keep Manning, then cue the butter fly effect. Possibly no Grigson and probably different o line players. 

[Thebrashandthebold]

Luck was not a winner in my opinion and vast overrated and overhyped. I don't care to attack him. He also led the world in people making excuses for his poor play. I was sure watching his first year that he would never make it to the SB and he would never last long enough to make the HOF. I was not the least surprised when he retired and for me, the Colts have been more fun to watch since them. He is a legend in your mind, not reality.

 

[jvan1973]

1 hour ago, Thebrashandthebold said:

Luck was not a winner in my opinion and vast overrated and overhyped. I don't care to attack him. He also led the world in people making excuses for his poor play. I was sure watching his first year that he would never make it to the SB and he would never last long enough to make the HOF. I was not the least surprised when he retired and for me, the Colts have been more fun to watch since them. He is a legend in your mind, not reality.

 

This is nonsense from stem to stern

[CurBeatElite]

On 2/6/2021 at 2:01 AM, EastStreet said:

Thing is, Peyton was basically his own OC and HC. So was AL after Arians left if we're honest. 

It's not longevity. Pick a period and do a custom average. You'd have to heavily cheery pick years to change the outcome.

 

First, my apologies.. I was not in a right state of mind when I made that last post (I have a lot of respect for you -though I don't know you personally, as a poster you seem to have a good idea about football and the Colts- and should never have called your post 'dumb').  

 

It's really not possible to cherry pick years between the two.  Manning was fortunate to have not been hurt early in his career (or really ever until his neck issues which came after 13 years).  It is remarkable that Manning played and started 16 games in his first 13 years (missed his entire 14th year) and again in his 15, 16, 17 year (his 18th year, he played 10 games, started 9 and then let his D win a SB for him - that's how good Denver's D was, he was throwing ducks at that time).

 

Respectfully, I disagree that Peyton was his own OC/HC for his entire career.  I don't really think it was until Dungy came on where he truly took that role on (his 5th year).. and even then, he was under the same OC the entire time.

 

Luck had Arians for 1 year, and play calling got noticeably different when Arians took reigns as the HC and the OC after Chuck missed time to cancer.  That offense was entirely different compared to what came in the next year with Pep, which lasted ~2.5 years before Chud took over and it changed again.  Then it totally changed again with Reich at the helms.

 

The only years we can really 'cherry pick', at least IMO, are the years which they were fully healthy and put them side-by-side.  Luck had a much stronger rookie campaign in the win/team success rate (i.e. 11-5 vs. 3-13) than Peyton.  Obviously neither were playing on great teams, as they were both Number 1 picks and had the worst team in the league to get that status.  Individually, I'd give it to Luck as well (passing percentages were both low 54.1 Luck/56.7 Manning with Luck taking a lot bigger shots down field in a more aggressive offense with a worse OL and without a HOF RB.. yards were 4,377 Luck vs. 3,793 - granted a different era... TD/INT ratio was 23/18 Luck vs. 26/28 Manning.. rating was 76.5 vs. 71.2 in favor of Luck... rush yards were 265 to Luck vs. 62 to Peyton.. comeback wins and total wins hands down to Luck).  

 

Individually, their next 2 years were fairly similar.. Peyton went 13-3 to Luck's 11-5 (Peyton playing in a weaker division with a another future HOF running back in his 2nd straight year with same OC).  TD/INT was 23/9 Luck vs. 26/16 Peyton.   Overall, a slightly better individual year for Peyton (again, he had a better all around team - consistent offensive coordinator and an amazing RB outlet).... Year 2, I'd give to Manning over Luck but not as big as Year 1 went to Luck over Manning (i.e., if this were a boxing match it'd be 10-8 Luck, 10-9 Peyton over 2 rounds).  Again, Luck with 377 rush yards to Peyton's 63.  At this point, Luck also had a fully in-tune Marvin.. Luck lost Reggie about 6.5 games into the season.

 

Year 3 -- Luck broke Colts passing yardage record, had a 96.5 vs. 94.7 rating, Luck threw 40 TD/16 INT, Peyton 33/15.  Again, Luck without a HOF RB and in a different offense (Reggie was back, but gimpy, and Luck had TY as his #1 guy, who was good, but not anywhere near Marvin at the same time).  At this point in time, where I think you end it (both of them had completion percentages similar which was not great with Luck at 61.7 and Manning 62.5), if it's a boxing match I'm saying Luck 10-8, Manning 10-9, Luck 10-9.  That's 29-27 to Luck over Manning.

 

Year 4, Luck got hurt.. year 5 Luck was gimpy... year 6, Luck missed.. year 7, Luck was comeback player of year and had a heckuva a year on an entirely new team (offensive scheme/defensive scheme, new players, etc...)... I'd give it to Peyton 10-8 or 10-9 if we are scoring a boxing match as an analogy.  

 

While Brady just won his 7th SB, I still think Peyton is the GOAT if you cut Brady's career off at the same time as Peyton... though, it's getting harder and harder to argue against Brady being the GOAT.

 

Long story short, I think it's really unfair to judge Luck vs. Peyton about how good Luck could have been.. Peyton came into the league with a HOF GM and a solid coach, which soon turned into a HOF coach.  Peyton came into the league with a HOF WR and HOF RB on his team.  Peyton had a better OL for the vast majority of his career.  Luck came in with a very good Reggie (who I believe in a future HOF WR, but not on the level as Marvin, and Luck certainly never had 2 HOF WRs and a HOF RB on his team at the same time).  Luck had no consistency with coaching and started his career with an awful first year GM and ended it with a first year GM who seems to be doing much better... Luck started with a first year head coach and ended with a first year head coach who came from an entirely different scheme.

 

It's impossible to compare... but if you look at Luck's first 3 years to Peyton and average them out over a healthy 18 year career and gave Luck the same offensive support Peyton had, I have a hard time believing Luck wouldn't have been in the same conversation as him, likely he would probably have thrown more yards (partially b/c the rules of the game, etc.) and broken multiple individual records which Peyton set the gold standard for.

 

  

[lollygagger8]

Yay another Luck thread 

[coltsva]

 

5 hours ago, CurBeatElite said:

Long story short, I think it's really unfair to judge Luck vs. Peyton about how good Luck could have been.. Peyton came into the league with a HOF GM and a solid coach, which soon turned into a HOF coach.  Peyton came into the league with a HOF WR and HOF RB on his team.  Peyton had a better OL for the vast majority of his career.  Luck came in with a very good Reggie (who I believe in a future HOF WR, but not on the level as Marvin, and Luck certainly never had 2 HOF WRs and a HOF RB on his team at the same time).  Luck had no consistency with coaching and started his career with an awful first year GM and ended it with a first year GM who seems to be doing much better... Luck started with a first year head coach and ended with a first year head coach who came from an entirely different scheme.

 

 

 

  

 

Brady came into the league with BB, Rodgers with Mike Sherman, Mahomes with Andy Reid, Jackson (who I'm still not sold on) with Harbaugh. That's a huge advantage on the road to success. Basically, when you have a super talented rookie QB joining your team, don't hire a rookie HC and a rookie GM.

[Valpo2004]

On 2/4/2021 at 5:34 PM, Flash7 said:

"If you're in in March, you need to be in for the entire season" -- JMV

 

Okay JMV, let's play this out.

 

Luck did not play in the preseason due to a mysterious lower leg injury. By the way it looked, he was not going to be able to play to start the season. He would have had to go through some sort of rehab on the lower leg and in his absence JB would play.

 

At some point in the season, Luck may have come back to play. Then at the end of the season, Luck retires.

 

How does this change our trajectory? How does this allow for Ballard to magically find a replacement for Luck? What new options would exist for Ballard had Luck been in for March and the entire season?

 

This . . . the way that leg thing was going, it seems to me unlikely that Luck was going to be playing in the first game and there is a dang good chance that he didn't play at all that season.

 

Remember this injury was suppose to be a muscle strain that was only going to keep him out of one weekend of OTA's. . . than he went through the entire camp not practicing in full because of it.  

[Iron Colt]

Is it true that Luck still gets tampons in the mail from NFL fans?

[NewColtsFan]

On 2/6/2021 at 7:31 AM, Thebrashandthebold said:

Luck was not a winner in my opinion and vast overrated and overhyped. I don't care to attack him. He also led the world in people making excuses for his poor play. I was sure watching his first year that he would never make it to the SB and he would never last long enough to make the HOF. I was not the least surprised when he retired and for me, the Colts have been more fun to watch since them. He is a legend in your mind, not reality.

 

Well...    this post is indeed BRASH and it certainly is BOLD....    but, IMO, it’s also wrong from beginning to end.  
 

Congratulations!     

[crazycolt1]

On 2/6/2021 at 10:31 AM, Thebrashandthebold said:

Luck was not a winner in my opinion and vast overrated and overhyped. I don't care to attack him. He also led the world in people making excuses for his poor play. I was sure watching his first year that he would never make it to the SB and he would never last long enough to make the HOF. I was not the least surprised when he retired and for me, the Colts have been more fun to watch since them. He is a legend in your mind, not reality.

 

[Iron Colt]

If only Luck had a tenth of Brady's drive, determination, ambition, work ethic and toughness. Brady in his thirties played with cracked ribs and said 'thank you sir, may I have another?'

 

Luck pulls his calf at 29, retires and has a press conference giving pathetic painful faces as if he just went through a holocaust camp tour 

[Kdeming1230]

Can I ask who is JMV? If you’re going to use abbreviations make sure everyone would get it. I mean on this board the only abbreviations I think are appropriate are PM. Everyone knows PM. Not everyone knows who JMV is. I’m sitting here thinking of a bunch of colts players and JMV doesn’t come to mind.

[jvan1973]

13 minutes ago, Kdeming1230 said:

Can I ask who is JMV? If you’re going to use abbreviations make sure everyone would get it. I mean on this board the only abbreviations I think are appropriate are PM. Everyone knows PM. Not everyone knows who JMV is. I’m sitting here thinking of a bunch of colts players and JMV doesn’t come to mind.

He is a local radio guy.   John Micheal Vincent.

 

Not to be confused with. 

 

[NewColtsFan]

On 2/8/2021 at 5:18 PM, Iron Colt said:

If only Luck had a tenth of Brady's drive, determination, ambition, work ethic and toughness. Brady in his thirties played with cracked ribs and said 'thank you sir, may I have another?'

 

Luck pulls his calf at 29, retires and has a press conference giving pathetic painful faces as if he just went through a holocaust camp tour 

It wasn’t a pulled calf muscle.

 

Dear God, get a clue.   Get a grip. 

[PrincetonTiger]

29 minutes ago, Kdeming1230 said:

Can I ask who is JMV? If you’re going to use abbreviations make sure everyone would get it. I mean on this board the only abbreviations I think are appropriate are PM. Everyone knows PM. Not everyone knows who JMV is. I’m sitting here thinking of a bunch of colts players and JMV doesn’t come to mind.

You must not be from the state because he goes by JMV 

[jvan1973]

14 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

It wasn’t a pulled calf muscle.

 

Dear God, get a clue.   Get a grip. 

Grip a clue

[EastStreet]

On 2/8/2021 at 2:23 AM, CurBeatElite said:

 

First, my apologies.. I was not in a right state of mind when I made that last post (I have a lot of respect for you -though I don't know you personally, as a poster you seem to have a good idea about football and the Colts- and should never have called your post 'dumb').  

No worries brother.

On 2/8/2021 at 2:23 AM, CurBeatElite said:

 

It's really not possible to cherry pick years between the two.  Manning was fortunate to have not been hurt early in his career (or really ever until his neck issues which came after 13 years).  It is remarkable that Manning played and started 16 games in his first 13 years (missed his entire 14th year) and again in his 15, 16, 17 year (his 18th year, he played 10 games, started 9 and then let his D win a SB for him - that's how good Denver's D was, he was throwing ducks at that time).

Fair or not, staying healthy and available is part of the equation. Especially when some health issues might have been self induced. That aside, AL's time to throw caused him issues while PM's time to throw alleviated potential issues. 

 

As far as PM's time in Denver, only 1 of 4 years were duck years. He led the league in QBR IIRC his first two years there, and in yards and TDs his second. His 3rd year was darn good too.

On 2/8/2021 at 2:23 AM, CurBeatElite said:

 

Respectfully, I disagree that Peyton was his own OC/HC for his entire career.  I don't really think it was until Dungy came on where he truly took that role on (his 5th year).. and even then, he was under the same OC the entire time.

 

Luck had Arians for 1 year, and play calling got noticeably different when Arians took reigns as the HC and the OC after Chuck missed time to cancer.  That offense was entirely different compared to what came in the next year with Pep, which lasted ~2.5 years before Chud took over and it changed again.  Then it totally changed again with Reich at the helms.

I think you're reading to much into the their own OC comment. Both QBs pretty much had full free will to change plays at the LOS. Sure schemes may have changed, but both had a ton of control within the scheme. Even Reich left AL alone pretty much in 2018 to do as he please. Schemes always change around QBs, but what is in question here is the QBs autonomy within the schemes. 

On 2/8/2021 at 2:23 AM, CurBeatElite said:

 

The only years we can really 'cherry pick', at least IMO, are the years which they were fully healthy and put them side-by-side.  Luck had a much stronger rookie campaign in the win/team success rate (i.e. 11-5 vs. 3-13) than Peyton.  Obviously neither were playing on great teams, as they were both Number 1 picks and had the worst team in the league to get that status.  Individually, I'd give it to Luck as well (passing percentages were both low 54.1 Luck/56.7 Manning with Luck taking a lot bigger shots down field in a more aggressive offense with a worse OL and without a HOF RB.. yards were 4,377 Luck vs. 3,793 - granted a different era... TD/INT ratio was 23/18 Luck vs. 26/28 Manning.. rating was 76.5 vs. 71.2 in favor of Luck... rush yards were 265 to Luck vs. 62 to Peyton.. comeback wins and total wins hands down to Luck).  

I would never put stock in rookie years lol. 

On 2/8/2021 at 2:23 AM, CurBeatElite said:

 

Individually, their next 2 years were fairly similar.. Peyton went 13-3 to Luck's 11-5 (Peyton playing in a weaker division with a another future HOF running back in his 2nd straight year with same OC).  TD/INT was 23/9 Luck vs. 26/16 Peyton.   Overall, a slightly better individual year for Peyton (again, he had a better all around team - consistent offensive coordinator and an amazing RB outlet).... Year 2, I'd give to Manning over Luck but not as big as Year 1 went to Luck over Manning (i.e., if this were a boxing match it'd be 10-8 Luck, 10-9 Peyton over 2 rounds).  Again, Luck with 377 rush yards to Peyton's 63.  At this point, Luck also had a fully in-tune Marvin.. Luck lost Reggie about 6.5 games into the season.

 

Year 3 -- Luck broke Colts passing yardage record, had a 96.5 vs. 94.7 rating, Luck threw 40 TD/16 INT, Peyton 33/15.  Again, Luck without a HOF RB and in a different offense (Reggie was back, but gimpy, and Luck had TY as his #1 guy, who was good, but not anywhere near Marvin at the same time).  At this point in time, where I think you end it (both of them had completion percentages similar which was not great with Luck at 61.7 and Manning 62.5), if it's a boxing match I'm saying Luck 10-8, Manning 10-9, Luck 10-9.  That's 29-27 to Luck over Manning.

 

Year 4, Luck got hurt.. year 5 Luck was gimpy... year 6, Luck missed.. year 7, Luck was comeback player of year and had a heckuva a year on an entirely new team (offensive scheme/defensive scheme, new players, etc...)... I'd give it to Peyton 10-8 or 10-9 if we are scoring a boxing match as an analogy.  

IMO, both the eye and stat test simply say PM was the better QB. Both had their ups and down in terms of surrounding personnel and other things. Also, personality or demeanor wise, PM just seemed heads and tails above AL in terms of 
"gamer" and leader. I put PM easily in the all time elite category, while Luck never really got on the porch to even knock at the door. Sure, health issues held him back, but I just can't assume he'd be there had he stayed healthy. Healthy or not, just never had the same feel or confidence with him. 

On 2/8/2021 at 2:23 AM, CurBeatElite said:

 

While Brady just won his 7th SB, I still think Peyton is the GOAT if you cut Brady's career off at the same time as Peyton... though, it's getting harder and harder to argue against Brady being the GOAT.

I think the pairing of BB and TB was simply a match made in heaven and contributed a lot to TBs success. I agree the PM is the better pure QB. BB was just a master in the coaching and GM aspects for all those years, and put TB in a much better position. I have to tip my hat to TB for winning this year, but he also probably had the best roster, or at least a top 3, compared to all his years in NE.

On 2/8/2021 at 2:23 AM, CurBeatElite said:

 

Long story short, I think it's really unfair to judge Luck vs. Peyton about how good Luck could have been.. Peyton came into the league with a HOF GM and a solid coach, which soon turned into a HOF coach.  Peyton came into the league with a HOF WR and HOF RB on his team.  Peyton had a better OL for the vast majority of his career.  Luck came in with a very good Reggie (who I believe in a future HOF WR, but not on the level as Marvin, and Luck certainly never had 2 HOF WRs and a HOF RB on his team at the same time).  Luck had no consistency with coaching and started his career with an awful first year GM and ended it with a first year GM who seems to be doing much better... Luck started with a first year head coach and ended with a first year head coach who came from an entirely different scheme.

There's a lot of context I could bring up within the arguments above, but I'll focus on the bolded. Could have been. I'll also stress that PM made his WRs great. And his TtT also helped out the OL tremendously while ALs did not. AL improved his TtT tremendously in 2018 with Reich's dink and dunk OL, but prior to that is was very high. In 2016 he was bottom 5. And if you're bottom 10, you're simply making the OL's job harder, and opening up the team to sacks. 

On 2/8/2021 at 2:23 AM, CurBeatElite said:

 

It's impossible to compare... but if you look at Luck's first 3 years to Peyton and average them out over a healthy 18 year career and gave Luck the same offensive support Peyton had, I have a hard time believing Luck wouldn't have been in the same conversation as him, likely he would probably have thrown more yards (partially b/c the rules of the game, etc.) and broken multiple individual records which Peyton set the gold standard for.

I disagree, but you do bring up a great point that actually hurts your case. The rules changes were much more helpful to AL than PM's career. Give PM those same rules and you'd have to add to PM's already elite AVGs.

[Mackrel829]

On 2/12/2021 at 5:06 PM, Kdeming1230 said:

Can I ask who is JMV? If you’re going to use abbreviations make sure everyone would get it. I mean on this board the only abbreviations I think are appropriate are PM. Everyone knows PM. Not everyone knows who JMV is. I’m sitting here thinking of a bunch of colts players and JMV doesn’t come to mind.

 

To be fair, I only know JMV by his initials. If someone was to say refer to him by his full name, I wouldn't know who they were talking about. I imagine it's the same for a lot of people. 

 

It's not like writing PM to save time. JMV is what he's always called, even when speaking.

 

Just thought I'd throw that out there because using his full name in this case would actually have meant that fewer people knew who he was referring to.

[PrincetonTiger]

32 minutes ago, Mackrel829 said:

 

To be fair, I only know JMV by his initials. If someone was to say refer to him by his full name, I wouldn't know who they were talking about. I imagine it's the same for a lot of people. 

 

It's not like writing PM to save time. JMV is what he's always called, even when speaking.

 

Just thought I'd throw that out there because using his full name in this case would actually have meant that fewer people knew who he was referring to.

 

I think 

I have only ever heard him as JMV

[GoColts8818]

On 2/12/2021 at 12:06 PM, Kdeming1230 said:

Can I ask who is JMV? If you’re going to use abbreviations make sure everyone would get it. I mean on this board the only abbreviations I think are appropriate are PM. Everyone knows PM. Not everyone knows who JMV is. I’m sitting here thinking of a bunch of colts players and JMV doesn’t come to mind.

He’s the afternoon drive show host on the number one sports station in Indy.  He goes by JMV so that’s why he’s called JMV.  He has a track record of having good sources,  he’s the one who broke the Peyton had a second neck surgery story among others.

[groundnpound]

On 2/8/2021 at 9:26 AM, lollygagger8 said:

Yay another Luck thread 

 

 

Not sure why some fans get so bent out of shape when Luck's name comes up. I mean, upset enough to complain when someone talks about them? C,mon ...it's easy to scroll past them.

[BlackTiger]

32 minutes ago, groundnpound said:

 

 

Not sure why some fans get so bent out of shape when Luck's name comes up. I mean, upset enough to complain when someone talks about them? C,mon ...it's easy to scroll past them.

I don't think its been a big issue on here, but reddit had literally 1000s of Luck posts after the rumor a few weeks ago.  Just scrolling past them didn't really work then, it was out of hand.

 

 

[groundnpound]

Just now, BlackTiger said:

I don't think its been a big issue on here, but reddit had literally 1000s of Luck posts after the rumor a few weeks ago.  Just scrolling past them didn't really work then, it was out of hand.

 

 

 

 

I don't do Reddit, but it was being discussed on twitter. I had zero problems discussing rumors and was bombarded by people saying I was being disrespectful to Luck. No room for virtue signalling in off season NFL rumor land. If i'm not interested in something, I don't read it...let alone comment on it.

[BlackTiger]

8 minutes ago, groundnpound said:

 

 

 If i'm not interested in something, I don't read it...let alone comment on it.

That works fine on here, but reddit is a different animal when something really takes off like that.  It was all started over fake rumors too, which made it worse to read

 

There is nothing wrong with simply mentioning Luck, but I do think 1000s of posts worth of fake rumors should be acknowledged and reigned in.

[jvan1973]

Just now, BlackTiger said:

That works fine on here, but reddit is a different animal when something really takes off like that.  It was all started over fake rumors too, which made it worse to read

 

There is nothing wrong with simply mentioning Luck, but I do think 1000s of posts worth of not true should be acknowledged and reigned in.

Or stop going there

[groundnpound]

8 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

Or stop going there

Why?

 

 

 

Sorry, i think i read that wrong. If i did, apologies. Did you mean stop going to the site? or stop talking about Luck?

[jvan1973]

22 minutes ago, groundnpound said:

Why?

 

 

 

Sorry, i think i read that wrong. If i did, apologies. Did you mean stop going to the site? or stop talking about Luck?

Stop going to reddit if the Luck rumors are too much to bear

[BlackTiger]

54 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

Or stop going there

Nah, reddit is usually entertaining but when something goes nuclear like that it gets a bit annoying.  They did put a stop to the unfounded Luck rumors on this forum, I  just wish they had done that there.

 

It is ultimately not a big deal, but sometimes making a complaint can create change.  You can stop reading it if you want to, I am going to say something about it.

[Thebrashandthebold]

On 2/6/2021 at 12:54 AM, CurBeatElite said:

 

The only reason it isn't close is longevity.  That is the only reason... you can keep the fact that Peyton had the same OC for his first 13 seasons and Luck had 5 in his 7. 

 

To say Luck couldn't have touched Peyton's career numbers if he was healthy for the same amount of time and played 18-20 seasons is the dumbest thing I probably have ever read from you.  

Not dumb at all. Anyone who watched Luck should have know that he would have a short career. He may have been a Stanford grad but he was never football smart. It cost him his career.

 

 

[Thebrashandthebold]

On 2/15/2021 at 2:28 PM, Mackrel829 said:

 

To be fair, I only know JMV by his initials. If someone was to say refer to him by his full name, I wouldn't know who they were talking about. I imagine it's the same for a lot of people. 

 

It's not like writing PM to save time. JMV is what he's always called, even when speaking.

 

Just thought I'd throw that out there because using his full name in this case would actually have meant that fewer people knew who he was referring to.

 

Glad to help:  John Michael Gliva  He was Mark Patrick's side-kick five years ago.

[CurBeatElite]

20 hours ago, Thebrashandthebold said:

Not dumb at all. Anyone who watched Luck should have know that he would have a short career. He may have been a Stanford grad but he was never football smart. It cost him his career.

 

 

 

He was extremely football smart.  Probably about 1 million times more football smart than you, sir.