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Capologist Thread (Salary Cap questions/answers)


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Was asked about having a thread for posters that have questions on salary cap matters.

 

I will be happy to answer any questions I can.

 

I know @Superman is well versed as well.

 

Quite a few other posters as well, if they care to chime in on questions.

 

 

Since the offseason is creeping upon us, figure it would be a good time for questions to be answered. 

 

Will leave this pinned through off-season.

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Some cap resources for others. These are the places I go for contract info.

 

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/indianapolis-colts/cap/

https://overthecap.com/calculator/indianapolis-colts/

And if you want to understand the basics, consult this: https://overthecap.com/a-guide-to-the-nfl-salary-cap/

 

Also, for pending FAs in 2021: 

https://overthecap.com/free-agency/

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/

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What exactly does it mean when it's said if a team trades or cuts a player the team will have $_____ CAP HIT?

 

Let's say the cap hit is $15 million. And the salary cap is say $200 million......

Does that mean the team has $185 million(200 minus 15) to spend on roster? 

Does anyone pay the player the $15mil?

 

 

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1 hour ago, LJpalmbeacher2 said:

What exactly does it mean when it's said if a team trades or cuts a player the team will have $_____ CAP HIT?

 

Let's say the cap hit is $15 million. And the salary cap is say $200 million......

Does that mean the team has $185 million(200 minus 15) to spend on roster? 

Does anyone pay the player the $15mil?

 

 

Dead Cap Hit?

 

Is that what you are saying?

 

 

If so, when a player has outstanding signing bonuses/restructures then the team that is trading/cutting them has a dead cap hit based on those figures.

 

So to use an example from the Colts, I will use Jack Doyle, since I've speculated he could potentially be a cap casualty this year.

 

 

So when he signed his extension he had a $3m SB. His extension went over 4yrs. The way a Signing Bonus works is, the player gets all that money up front when he signs the contract. For salary cap purposes though, it is spread equally over the length of the contract(up to 5 years). In Doyle's case it was $750k/yr over 4 seasons($3m total).

 

So for 2021 Doyle is owed $5,787,500 and has 2 years left on deal, so that leaves $1.5m in dead cap(2yrs at $750k/per from signing bonus).

 

 

So if the Colts were to release Doyle this offseason they would save $4,287,500 in cap space, but would still be on the hook for the other $1.5m from the signing bonus that was spread out over the contract.

 

The $1.5m stays on the Colts salary cap this year. The rest of the contract comes off the books for this year and next year.(because he had 2 yrs left)

 

Doyle was already paid the money up front. So there is no more money to pay out.

 

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/indianapolis-colts/jack-doyle-12994/#

 

Hopefully that makes sense, and if that isn't what you meant, let me know.

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31 minutes ago, LJpalmbeacher2 said:

What exactly does it mean when it's said if a team trades or cuts a player the team will have $_____ CAP HIT?

 

Let's say the cap hit is $15 million. And the salary cap is say $200 million......

Does that mean the team has $185 million(200 minus 15) to spend on roster? 

Does anyone pay the player the $15mil?

 

They're referring to the already paid signing bonus that the trading team has previously paid to the player. That bonus money is normally spread out over the life of the contract (up to five years), but once a player is traded or released, all of that bonus money that was previously spread out is now accounted for in just one year (or two, depending on the date of the trade or release). 

 

So if Team A paid a player a $15m signing bonus on a three year contract, that signing bonus is accounted for as $5m/year for three years. But if they cut or trade that player after Year 1, the remaining $10m is now accounted for on their cap. If they cut/trade the player before June 1, it's all accounted for in that year. If they cut/trade the player after June 1, it's split evenly between that season and the next. 

 

Pick a player and I'll give a practical example.

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12 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

They're referring to the already paid signing bonus that the trading team has previously paid to the player. That bonus money is normally spread out over the life of the contract (up to five years), but once a player is traded or released, all of that bonus money that was previously spread out is now accounted for in just one year (or two, depending on the date of the trade or release). 

 

So if Team A paid a player a $15m signing bonus on a three year contract, that signing bonus is accounted for as $5m/year for three years. But if they cut or trade that player after Year 1, the remaining $10m is now accounted for on their cap. If they cut/trade the player before June 1, it's all accounted for in that year. If they cut/trade the player after June 1, it's split evenly between that season and the next. 

 

Pick a player and I'll give a practical example.

I think you usually explain things better than me. :thmup:

 

I tend to ramble on....and on....:D

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1 hour ago, w87r said:

Dead Cap Hit?

 

Is that what you are saying?

 

 

If so, when a player has outstanding signing bonuses/restructures then the team that is trading/cutting them has a dead cap hit based on those figures.

 

So to use an example from the Colts, I will use Jack Doyle, since I've speculated he could potentially be a cap casualty this year.

 

 

So when he signed his extension he had a $3m SB. His extension went over 4yrs. The way a Signing Bonus works is, the player gets all that money up front when he signs the contract. For salary cap purposes though, it is spread equally over the length of the contract(up to 5 years). In Doyle's case it was $750k over 4 seasons($3m total).

 

So for 2021 Doyle is owed $5,787,500 and has 2 years left on deal, so that leaves $1.5m in dead cap(2yrs at $750k/per from signing bonus).

 

 

So if the Colts were to release Doyle this offseason they would save $4,287,500 in cap space, but would still be on the hook for the other $1.5m from the signing bonus that was spread out over the contract.

 

The $1.5m stays on the Colts salary cap this year. The rest of the contract comes off the books for this year and next year.(because he had 2 hrs left)

 

Doyle was already paid the money up front. So there is no more money to pay out.

 

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/indianapolis-colts/jack-doyle-12994/#

 

Hopefully that makes sense, and if that isn't what you meant, let me know.

 

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

They're referring to the already paid signing bonus that the trading team has previously paid to the player. That bonus money is normally spread out over the life of the contract (up to five years), but once a player is traded or released, all of that bonus money that was previously spread out is now accounted for in just one year (or two, depending on the date of the trade or release). 

 

So if Team A paid a player a $15m signing bonus on a three year contract, that signing bonus is accounted for as $5m/year for three years. But if they cut or trade that player after Year 1, the remaining $10m is now accounted for on their cap. If they cut/trade the player before June 1, it's all accounted for in that year. If they cut/trade the player after June 1, it's split evenly between that season and the next. 

 

Pick a player and I'll give a practical example.

 

Thanks guys.

 

One more thing.... when a restaurant has a built in 20% gratuity inclu.....Never Mind.

 

haha

 

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While I am no where near as versed in the cap and all the tricks and rules as @Superman and @w87r but I have a working knowledge of the cap.

 

that said, I do have one question or rather topic of questions that I think a lot of posters may have questions to. We all know there’s several teams WAY WAY over the cap. Some of them have been discussed in detail in other threads. So looking for a ballpark answer here, besides the obvious measures of cutting and trading, designation post June and/or restructuring contracts(takes two sides and really we know pushes the hit down the road), what are some other general ways a team can perhaps reduce the cap hits of their players?

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Thanks again for making this a sticky.

 

KC will continue to be a factor for awhile, 2-3 years, but some of the other parts of the team will begin to suffer as Mahomes cap hit approaches 42 Plus per year.

 

You cant have high paid starts at every position.  The other stars at KC are are going to want to get paid..........

 

The cap helps keep the league competitive

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3 minutes ago, csmopar said:

While I am no where near as versed in the cap and all the tricks and rules as @Superman and @w87r but I have a working knowledge of the cap.

 

that said, I do have one question or rather topic of questions that I think a lot of posters may have questions to. We all know there’s several teams WAY WAY over the cap. Some of them have been discussed in detail in other threads. So looking for a ballpark answer here, besides the obvious measures of cutting and trading, designation post June and/or restructuring contracts(takes two sides and really we know pushes the hit down the road), what are some other general ways a team can perhaps reduce the cap hits of their players?

Its a good question.

 

Really after the ones you mentioned, the other options are few and far between.

 

 

Players can take a pay cut, and maybe add maybe add incentives to the deal.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/coltswire.usatoday.com/2018/09/04/indianapolis-colts-denzelle-good-mark-glowinski-pay-cuts/amp/

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.stampedeblue.com/platform/amp/2016/3/8/11178966/trent-cole-takes-pay-cut-with-colts

 

Couple local examples

 

I think a lot of teams set up contracts that they know will be restructured down the road ro make rhe money work. For instance LAR, Donald, Ramsey, Kupp, Woods all have big base salaries and all those guys will have to restructure this year, IMO.

 

 

Maybe Superman can give some more examples. That is my initial thoughts though.

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3 minutes ago, MikeCurtis said:

Thanks again for making this a sticky.

 

KC will continue to be a factor for awhile, 2-3 years, but some of the other parts of the team will begin to suffer as Mahomes cap hit approaches 42 Plus per year.

 

You cant have high paid starts at every position.  The other stars at KC are are going to want to get paid..........

 

The cap helps keep the league competitive

definitely.

 

They will kick the can down the road as long as possible and try and keep hitting on young players to come in a fill the voids as certain vets get phases out.

 

Outside of Mahomes, Kelce, Hill and Jones, I suspect they will have a revolving door. Some other vets will stick around to, but without going to look at their roster this very moment, that is my initial thoughts.

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13 hours ago, csmopar said:

While I am no where near as versed in the cap and all the tricks and rules as @Superman and @w87r but I have a working knowledge of the cap.

 

that said, I do have one question or rather topic of questions that I think a lot of posters may have questions to. We all know there’s several teams WAY WAY over the cap. Some of them have been discussed in detail in other threads. So looking for a ballpark answer here, besides the obvious measures of cutting and trading, designation post June and/or restructuring contracts(takes two sides and really we know pushes the hit down the road), what are some other general ways a team can perhaps reduce the cap hits of their players?

 

Outside of cutting, trading, and restructuring, there's nothing you can do.

 

w87r mentions converting salary into incentive, but that's a renegotiation with the player. If a player was on the chopping block, and a team approached him to convert his salary into incentives, they could technically use incentives that he was unable to hit due to injury the previous season, and that would make them NLTBE (not likely to be earned), and they would not count against the cap in that season. 

 

So for example, the Niners could tell JG 'we want to keep you, but we need to convert $10m of your 2021 salary to an incentive bonus. If you throw for 2,000 yards, you get $2m, if you throw for 3,000 yards, you get another $3m, and if you throw for 4,000 yards, you get another $5m.' Those incentives would be considered NLTBE because he didn't hit any of those marks in 2020, and if he hit them in 2021 they get charged to the 2022 cap. His 2021 cap hit would be reduced $10m, from $26.4m to $16.4m. If they were up against the cap they could wiggle around it that way, but it's a restructure. And I feel like a player would be wise to reject that kind of proposal if he has any kind of potential market.

 

Also, there are specific categories of incentives, and limits to what and how many can be considered NLTBE. 

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9 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Outside of cutting, trading, and restructuring, there's nothing you can do.

 

w87r mentions converting salary into incentive, but that's a renegotiation with the player. If a player was on the chopping block, and a team approached him to convert his salary into incentives, they could technically use incentives that he was unable to hit due to injury the previous season, and that would make them NLTBE (not likely to be earned), and they would not count against the cap in that season. 

 

So for example, the Niners could tell JG 'we want to keep you, but we need to convert $10m of your 2021 salary to an incentive bonus. If you throw for 2,000 yards, you get $2m, if you throw for 3,000 yards, you get another $3m, and if you throw for 4,000 yards, you get another $5m.' Those incentives would be considered NLTBE because he didn't hit any of those marks in 2020, and if he hit them in 2021 they get charged to the 2022 cap. His 2021 cap hit would be reduced $10m, from $26.4m to $16.4m. If they were up against the cap they could wiggle around it that way, but it's a restructure. And I feel like a player would be wise to reject that kind of proposal if he has any kind of potential market.

 

Also, there are specific categories of incentives, and limits to what and how many can be considered NLTBE. 

Can’t they also convert a portion to a “bonus” paid in cash from the owners pockets and reduce the cap hits too? I think it was ESPN where I saw something about that. But I know the big thing was it took both parties and the bonus had to be paid directly from cash, not revenue. 

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40 minutes ago, csmopar said:

Can’t they also convert a portion to a “bonus” paid in cash from the owners pockets and reduce the cap hits too? I think it was ESPN where I saw something about that. But I know the big thing was it took both parties and the bonus had to be paid directly from cash, not revenue. 

 

Sure, that's a restructure, which you mentioned earlier, and it kicks the cap hit down the road as you stated. I don't know about the cash/revenue angle, not sure what difference that's supposed to make. Converting salary into bonus is basically an upfront cash payment of money that would have been received over the course of the season, but the source of any player compensation is from the owner's resources. The extent to which the owner's resources are supplemented by league revenue is a different story.

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52 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Sure, that's a restructure, which you mentioned earlier, and it kicks the cap hit down the road as you stated. I don't know about the cash/revenue angle, not sure what difference that's supposed to make. Converting salary into bonus is basically an upfront cash payment of money that would have been received over the course of the season, but the source of any player compensation is from the owner's resources. The extent to which the owner's resources are supplemented by league revenue is a different story.

Ah ok. I was thinking they were different all together but that makes sense. I do know they didn’t think a lot of that would happen simply because it came out of the pockets of the owners and not part of the supplemented thing. And they said both the owners and players would get taxed at a higher rate yet than what they normally do. Which surprised me given I’m sure they’re maxed out in the income bracket 

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13 minutes ago, csmopar said:

Ah ok. I was thinking they were different all together but that makes sense. I do know they didn’t think a lot of that would happen simply because it came out of the pockets of the owners and not part of the supplemented thing. And they said both the owners and players would get taxed at a higher rate yet than what they normally do. Which surprised me given I’m sure they’re maxed out in the income bracket 

 

I've never paid a lot of attention to the tax ramifications of NFL contracts, so I can't speak to that. I guess bonus can be taxed differently than salary, but I'm not sure what impact that has at these levels of income, if at all.

 

As for where the money comes from, it's all coming from the same place -- the owners. The NFL sends league revenue to the teams, which they use to pay expenses, including player compensation. In 2019, that was over $15b total revenue, so nearly $500m per team, on average. The salary cap in 2020 was just under $200m. So in theory, all player comp would be covered by league revenue. In practice, some teams have greater expenses than others -- stadiums, coaching salaries, local taxes, etc. -- so maybe some owners have to dip into reserves to cover expenses in a certain year. But I think that's more about their organizational business structure and balance sheet, and has nothing to do with the salary cap functions of the CBA.

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25 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I've never paid a lot of attention to the tax ramifications of NFL contracts, so I can't speak to that. I guess bonus can be taxed differently than salary, but I'm not sure what impact that has at these levels of income, if at all.

 

 

On a different note there is the JOCK TAX. 

Each state that the players play in charge various taxes on the players who play away games.

Not only that, I think Philadelphia charges a city tax separate from the state tax on the players. 

That is something not too many fans know. 

Uncle Sam has long arms. 

 

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42 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

On a different note there is the JOCK TAX. 

Each state that the players play in charge various taxes on the players who play away games.

Not only that, I think Philadelphia charges a city tax separate from the state tax on the players. 

That is something not too many fans know. 

Uncle Sam has long arms. 

 

I think that is state dependent though.  I've heard of it before and not all states charge it

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1 hour ago, csmopar said:

I think that is state dependent though.  I've heard of it before and not all states charge it

I was reading an article Mighty Taxes and the history of the 'jock tax'. 

It's been around since the 60s in some form but it's expansion is tied to Michael Jordon in 1991. 

Very interesting write up. Sorry. I can't seem to link it. 

mighty taxes - Bing

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4 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

I was reading an article Mighty Taxes and the history of the 'jock tax'. 

It's been around since the 60s in some form but it's expansion is tied to Michael Jordon in 1991. 

Very interesting write up. Sorry. I can't seem to link it. 

mighty taxes - Bing

nice.

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13 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Outside of cutting, trading, and restructuring, there's nothing you can do.

 

w87r mentions converting salary into incentive, but that's a renegotiation with the player. If a player was on the chopping block, and a team approached him to convert his salary into incentives, they could technically use incentives that he was unable to hit due to injury the previous season, and that would make them NLTBE (not likely to be earned), and they would not count against the cap in that season. 

 

So for example, the Niners could tell JG 'we want to keep you, but we need to convert $10m of your 2021 salary to an incentive bonus. If you throw for 2,000 yards, you get $2m, if you throw for 3,000 yards, you get another $3m, and if you throw for 4,000 yards, you get another $5m.' Those incentives would be considered NLTBE because he didn't hit any of those marks in 2020, and if he hit them in 2021 they get charged to the 2022 cap. His 2021 cap hit would be reduced $10m, from $26.4m to $16.4m. If they were up against the cap they could wiggle around it that way, but it's a restructure. And I feel like a player would be wise to reject that kind of proposal if he has any kind of potential market.

 

Also, there are specific categories of incentives, and limits to what and how many can be considered NLTBE. 

I would think restructuring JG's contract like that would make him easier to trade.  Maybe not as drastic as your example but getting his cap hit closer to 20 m might help get him traded.  He knows they are thinking about moving on from him so he could help them do it.  Maybe he could offer to do it with the team and he gives them a few teams he would be happy to go to if they could work out a deal. 

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3 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

I would think restructuring JG's contract like that would make him easier to trade.  Maybe not as drastic as your example but getting his cap hit closer to 20 m might help get him traded.  He knows they are thinking about moving on from him so he could help them do it.  Maybe he could offer to do it with the team and he gives them a few teams he would be happy to go to if they could work out a deal. 

some times teams will trade with an agreement in place with the player to restructure/extend once that trade is official too.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 2/1/2021 at 3:12 PM, crazycolt1 said:

I was reading an article Mighty Taxes and the history of the 'jock tax'. 

It's been around since the 60s in some form but it's expansion is tied to Michael Jordon in 1991. 

Very interesting write up. Sorry. I can't seem to link it. 

mighty taxes - Bing

I never heard of this. Very interesting, but not surprising. Seems there would be a way around it. Put Marvin Harrison's quote in the contracts "They pay you to practice. The games? Those are free."

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40 minutes ago, MikeCurtis said:

Ok, a specific question.... again, thanks for putting this thread in

 

IF we sign Wentz (On league start day) and the Colts pay the roster bonus

 

What would exact the cap hit be to the Colts for this year?

 

I am seeing different things posted.

 

 

Wouldn't it be awesome if the offer the Colts made for Wentz  would include that the deal doesn't happen until after the start of the yr and they Eagles have to pay that roster bonus?  LOL

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1 minute ago, BluesGirl said:

Wouldn't it be awesome if the offer the Colts made for Wentz  would include that the deal doesn't happen until after the start of the yr and they Eagles have to pay that roster bonus?  LOL

It would be, but I think at least a part of the reason that people arent offering more for Wentz is the 10M roster bonus.

 

On the other side of the bonus, maybe people might offer more..... who knows

 

The talking  heads seem to think that Wentz is heading to Indy.....

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6 hours ago, MikeCurtis said:

It would be, but I think at least a part of the reason that people arent offering more for Wentz is the 10M roster bonus.

 

On the other side of the bonus, maybe people might offer more..... who knows

 

The talking  heads seem to think that Wentz is heading to Indy.....

Wentz cap hits for us:

2021: $25.4m guaranteed

2022: $22m ($15m guarantees 3/19/21)

2023: $25m

2024: $26m

 

 

$40.4m guaranteed, nothing after 2022.

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3 hours ago, w87r said:

Wentz cap hits for us:

2021: $25.4m guaranteed

2022: $22m ($15m guarantees 3/19/21)

2023: $25m

2024: $26m

 

 

$40.4m guaranteed, nothing after 2022.

So question, how does the 34 million in dead cap that the eagles have to pay factor in to all this?

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23 minutes ago, csmopar said:

So question, how does the 34 million in dead cap that the eagles have to pay factor in to all this?

It doesn't. This is just what's left after the upfront money(signing bonus/option bonus) was taken off the contract.

 

All the money was already paid up front by Philly, just spread over contract for salary cap purposes.

 

If he remained in Philly, he would of had $3.27m SB/yr for 3 more years, and $6m option bonus/yr for 4 more years go against the cap. Again though, he already received that money when he signed deal.

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30 minutes ago, w87r said:

It doesn't. This is just what's left after the upfront money(signing bonus/option bonus) was taken off the contract.

 

All the money was already paid up front by Philly, just spread over contract for salary cap purposes.

 

If he remained in Philly, he would of had $3.27m SB/yr for 3 more years, and $6m option bonus/yr for 4 more years go against the cap. Again though, he already received that money when he signed deal.

Am I correct that they also have some dead cap next year as well from this

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Just now, csmopar said:

Am I correct that they also have some dead cap next year as well from this

No, it all goes against the cap this year.

 

If they would of post Nune 1st trade or cut him then it would of split between both years.

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On 2/1/2021 at 1:49 AM, Superman said:

 

Outside of cutting, trading, and restructuring, there's nothing you can do.

 

w87r mentions converting salary into incentive, but that's a renegotiation with the player. If a player was on the chopping block, and a team approached him to convert his salary into incentives, they could technically use incentives that he was unable to hit due to injury the previous season, and that would make them NLTBE (not likely to be earned), and they would not count against the cap in that season. 

 

So for example, the Niners could tell JG 'we want to keep you, but we need to convert $10m of your 2021 salary to an incentive bonus. If you throw for 2,000 yards, you get $2m, if you throw for 3,000 yards, you get another $3m, and if you throw for 4,000 yards, you get another $5m.' Those incentives would be considered NLTBE because he didn't hit any of those marks in 2020, and if he hit them in 2021 they get charged to the 2022 cap. His 2021 cap hit would be reduced $10m, from $26.4m to $16.4m. If they were up against the cap they could wiggle around it that way, but it's a restructure. And I feel like a player would be wise to reject that kind of proposal if he has any kind of potential market.

 

Also, there are specific categories of incentives, and limits to what and how many can be considered NLTBE. 

 

When I casually looked through this, I thought NLTBE was a band like New Kids On The Block or something like that. :) 

 

Can you do the NLTBE with Covid opt outs? Or is that prohibited?

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16 hours ago, w87r said:

Official rollover $ for each team.

 

https://nfltraderumors.co/2021-cap-space-carryover-for-all-32-teams/

 

Colts are rolling over $8.3m which os already figured into cap space.

 

$49m left after Wentz.

For what it’s worth....

 

We’ve all been operating on a roughly 67-68 mill for the Colts until the Wentz trade.   But the other day ESPN had us with a new number I’ve never seen before...   $72.4m

 

I don’t know where this comes from?   Any idea?

 

Also...   while I have you, how did the Wentz deal take us from upper 60’s to $49?   Can you explain?  

 

 

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