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Red Zone Woes Part 1: Pre-stat opinions


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Thanks to a hot take by someone else, I've decided to dig into the Colts RZ offense a bit.

 

There will be a part 2 with stats after I dig a bit tomorrow or the next day, but wanted to see what everyone's thoughts are pre-stats. I'll like do stats in part 2, and also a poll with everyone's opinion on causes.

 

Not sure what's out there in terms of free stats on RZ performance (team and players), but I'll try and dig as much as possible. If anyone has any great sites with info, please share. I know teamrankings.com, nflsavant.com, PFR, Sharp, etc..

 

I'll do a little comparison to past years (Colts centric), and also across teams. 

 

In terms of my pre-stat opinion, my gut says 

 

1) we didn't use Bigs (6-3 or more) enough in the passing game (I already know there was decline from past years in TE use)

2) our rushing was mostly predictable. 

 

So what are your thoughts on our 21st ranked RZ offense, and the causes? And also, any specific areas you want me to dig into?

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Rivers lack of mobility limiting the playbook?    The field is already so small...so not being able to stretch horizontally definitely doesn’t help. Also, Rivers doesn’t really have a cannon to

So I don't have the knowledge to add much to the discussion, but it's nice to see 3 posters 'going at it', when they clearly don't have consensus but are discussing this in wholesome and mostly respec

Honestly I am at a loss on the whys. Because last year with JB we were pretty good in the redzone. Lacl of execution and beating your man vs last year? 

6 minutes ago, NannyMcafee said:

Honestly I am at a loss on the whys. Because last year with JB we were pretty good in the redzone. Lacl of execution and beating your man vs last year? 

In the little searching I've done, I'll tell you personnel usage is much different in the passing game. Not saying execution isn't part of the problem at this stage, but I will say that personnel usage (targets) has me scratching my head big time.

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Our Redzone touchdown scoring percentage had to be bottom 10 in the league.

 

I feel that shotgun runs were used often and when we had something going we would run a toss to the outside.

 

Couldnt concert 3rd downs either.

 

Seems that it was poor play calling in the run game or our receivers just couldn’t get open. (I think the Colts need to upgrade receiver position. Also Rivers has ZERO mobility which doesn’t help.

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12 minutes ago, bravo4460 said:

Our Redzone touchdown scoring percentage had to be bottom 10 in the league.

 

I feel that shotgun runs were used often and when we had something going we would run a toss to the outside.

 

Couldnt concert 3rd downs either.

 

Seems that it was poor play calling in the run game or our receivers just couldn’t get open. (I think the Colts need to upgrade receiver position. Also Rivers has ZERO mobility which doesn’t help.

21st.

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Rivers lack of mobility limiting the playbook? 
 

The field is already so small...so not being able to stretch horizontally definitely doesn’t help. Also, Rivers doesn’t really have a cannon to fit passes into tight spaces.

 

Taking out Taylor in the RZ so often probably didn’t help either.

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14 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

Rivers lack of mobility limiting the playbook? 
 

The field is already so small...so not being able to stretch horizontally definitely doesn’t help. Also, Rivers doesn’t really have a cannon to fit passes into tight spaces.

 

Taking out Taylor in the RZ so often probably didn’t help either.

IMO, he doesn't have problems with zip short to intermediate. Looking at our choice of targets in the RZ, they are tiny..... which certainly doesn't help. Making a tight space tighter... 

 

Taylor had a good amount of RZ carries IMO, but they did over rotate once they got down to the goal line if memory serves.

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I just think we need to use our TEs and bigger bodies more. Like MAC is a beast and I can't for the life of me understand why we don't target him more, not just in the redzone. And what about the two shiny new 6ft 4 Wrs we brought in this year? Are they no good in the redzone? Honestly I don't truly know why we failed in the RZ but I would start with thinking we need to play more to our players' strengths. 

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Bad. Failed runs, pass plays that didn't have a chance at scoring, overthrows, failed fourth downs. I think they had a nice stretch for a few weeks, but overall we weren't good in the red zone.

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5 hours ago, Superman said:

Bad. Failed runs, pass plays that didn't have a chance at scoring, overthrows, failed fourth downs. I think they had a nice stretch for a few weeks, but overall we weren't good in the red zone.

l dug a little last night. I'm pretty surprised at some of the stuff I'm finding in terms of simple play calling mix (pass vs run), personnel use (targets), success rate (by personnel), 3rd and 4th down rush frequency (2018 and 19, vs 20), and directionality. etc. 

 

 

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5 hours ago, funktacious2 said:

I just think we need to use our TEs and bigger bodies more. Like MAC is a beast and I can't for the life of me understand why we don't target him more, not just in the redzone. And what about the two shiny new 6ft 4 Wrs we brought in this year? Are they no good in the redzone? Honestly I don't truly know why we failed in the RZ but I would start with thinking we need to play more to our players' strengths. 

our target share to TEs absolutely dropped.

and looking at the top 5 RZ teams, they all have more TE and Bigs targets. 

 

Going to try and spit some stats out tomorrow. It's tedious stuff, and I want to dig in a few more areas.

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9 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Thanks to a hot take by someone else, I've decided to dig into the Colts RZ offense a bit.

 

There will be a part 2 with stats after I dig a bit tomorrow or the next day, but wanted to see what everyone's thoughts are pre-stats. I'll like do stats in part 2, and also a poll with everyone's opinion on causes.

 

Not sure what's out there in terms of free stats on RZ performance (team and players), but I'll try and dig as much as possible. If anyone has any great sites with info, please share. I know teamrankings.com, nflsavant.com, PFR, Sharp, etc..

 

I'll do a little comparison to past years (Colts centric), and also across teams. 

 

In terms of my pre-stat opinion, my gut says 

 

1) we didn't use Bigs (6-3 or more) enough in the passing game (I already know there was decline from past years in TE use)

2) our rushing was mostly predictable. 

 

So what are your thoughts on our 21st ranked RZ offense, and the causes? And also, any specific areas you want me to dig into?

 

Let's go:

 

1 - Wrong personal. Ex: havier packages with small running back, bigger back on shotgun on 3 WR packages. Maybe is to confuse Defenses and mix tendencies, but was crappy.

 

2 - Rivers mobility. You know that even in the half yard line you dont need to sustain the edges or spy if he drops off.

 

3 - Give it to your best player!!! How many tries to TY or Pittman (suppose to be good on contested catches)??? I saw too little.

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10 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Thanks to a hot take by someone else, I've decided to dig into the Colts RZ offense a bit.

 

There will be a part 2 with stats after I dig a bit tomorrow or the next day, but wanted to see what everyone's thoughts are pre-stats. I'll like do stats in part 2, and also a poll with everyone's opinion on causes.

 

Not sure what's out there in terms of free stats on RZ performance (team and players), but I'll try and dig as much as possible. If anyone has any great sites with info, please share. I know teamrankings.com, nflsavant.com, PFR, Sharp, etc..

 

I'll do a little comparison to past years (Colts centric), and also across teams. 

 

In terms of my pre-stat opinion, my gut says 

 

1) we didn't use Bigs (6-3 or more) enough in the passing game (I already know there was decline from past years in TE use)

2) our rushing was mostly predictable. 

 

So what are your thoughts on our 21st ranked RZ offense, and the causes? And also, any specific areas you want me to dig into?

Lack of red zone talent.  Individual mismatch deficit close to the goal line.

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34 minutes ago, DiogoSales said:

 

Let's go:

 

1 - Wrong personal. Ex: havier packages with small running back, bigger back on shotgun on 3 WR packages. Maybe is to confuse Defenses and mix tendencies, but was crappy.

 

2 - Rivers mobility. You know that even in the half yard line you dont need to sustain the edges or spy if he drops off.

 

3 - Give it to your best player!!! How many tries to TY or Pittman (suppose to be good on contested catches)??? I saw too little.

I agree with 1 and 2. 

I agree partially on 2, but I don't think it's a big factor. What I'm seeing 2018 vs 2020 points to different things. 

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2 hours ago, EastStreet said:

our target share to TEs absolutely dropped.

and looking at the top 5 RZ teams, they all have more TE and Bigs targets. 

 

Going to try and spit some stats out tomorrow. It's tedious stuff, and I want to dig in a few more areas.

Teams have adjusted to the TE usage.   They are not targeted as much league wide as they were say 5 years ago

 

We have less RZ targets to TEs this year than last but more touchdowns from TEs.  

 

Our personnel does not create physical mismatches in the RZ.  MAC is big but pretty clunky.  Doyle is just not a mismatch type of guy.

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10 hours ago, NannyMcafee said:

Honestly I am at a loss on the whys. Because last year with JB we were pretty good in the redzone. Lacl of execution and beating your man vs last year? 

 

With JB, Frank did not have to overthink. He just employed the KISS principle, Keep It Simple Stupid and that showed better results in the red zone, it seems like. Just run JT and use MAC for blocking/release once you got to 1st and goal before the half 3 times, we would have had better success, I am certain.

 

It is like when you walk into a restaurant with far more options on the menu than a smaller one with fewer options, it takes more time to make your choice and there is a greater chance of you not liking something new you tried, IMO. :) 

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2 hours ago, EastStreet said:

our target share to TEs absolutely dropped.

and looking at the top 5 RZ teams, they all have more TE and Bigs targets. 

 

Going to try and spit some stats out tomorrow. It's tedious stuff, and I want to dig in a few more areas.

But who are these TEs and Bigs East.  You need some context here, not just raw data.  I would suspect that the top 5 red zone teams have more individually talented TEs and bigs than we do.  

 

Rivers limitations with mobility definitely have an effect too.  I think we need to bring him back next year, but there is no doubt that his limitations hurt us down there.  

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5 minutes ago, Nickster said:

Teams have adjusted to the TE usage.   They are not targeted as much league wide as they were say 5 years ago

 

We have less RZ targets to TEs this year than last but more touchdowns from TEs.  

 

Our personnel does not create physical mismatches in the RZ.  MAC is big but pretty clunky.  Doyle is just not a mismatch type of guy.

 

That is not true if you have the good TEs. Gronk is in the middle of a target share, so is Jimmy Graham but they still get used in the red zone. Kittle was injured for most of the year and Kelce has been balling along with Waller.

 

Rivers went through a stretch where he threw it up to MAC, and then we go away from it. Philly went through the same thing too - Ertz is banged up, Goedert is my only option, so it was simpler but when both of them were on the field, Pederson had a hard time keeping both productive. Our options are not elite mismatches but they are good enough to at least get the looks, they are not even being targeted enough.

 

Yes, a TE like Adkins of Texans or Knox of Bills, JAGs, do benefit from the mobility of Watson and Allen, no doubt but we should at least see a decent amount of targets, more than what has transpired, IMO.

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I’m going with questionable play calling and strange personnel choices. How many times did Frank get “cute” with his personnel? JB behind center...guess what’s coming?; Hines as the power back; Burton at QB or the target of a quick inside pitch; Runs up the middle at a stacked box; predictable play calling almost every time, regardless of personnel; rarely passed to our tall receivers.

I believe the Colts have the personnel to have a great red zone record. On the field, that is. The guy calling the plays? There’s your culprit. 

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I think we get to conservative in the red zone.  Then we get to aggressive at weird times. Get more aggressive when you get to the 20.  You don’t have to run it all the time.

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1 minute ago, chad72 said:

 

That is not true if you have the good TEs. Gronk is in the middle of a target share, so is Jimmy Graham but they still get used in the red zone. Kittle was injured for most of the year and Kelce has been balling along with Waller.

 

Rivers went through a stretch where he threw it up to MAC, and then we go away from it. Philly went through the same thing too - Ertz is banged up, Goedert is my only option, so it was simpler but when both of them were on the field, Pederson had a hard time keeping both productive. Our options are not elite mismatches but they are good enough to at least get the looks, they are not even being targeted enough.

Every time Kelce, Kittle, and Waller run a pattern it's a mismatch.  WE don't have pass catcher at TE anywhere near that level, and there aren't very many of them on planet Earth.  Graham and Gronk are still better pass catchers who create bigger mismatches in the RZ.  They have a history of scoring RZ TDs.  Not a single player on our team has ever been very good at it.

 

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2 minutes ago, Nickster said:

Every time Kelce, Kittle, and Waller run a pattern it's a mismatch.  WE don't have pass catcher at TE anywhere near that level, and there aren't very many of them on planet Earth.  Graham and Gronk are still better pass catchers who create bigger mismatches in the RZ.  They have a history of scoring RZ TDs.  Not a single player on our team has ever been very good at it.

 

 

Just because they are not good at being RZ alphas, it does not mean you cannot scheme them open. Look at that first drive TD for MAC vs the Bears. Fantastic play call!!! You don't need to be an elite TE to get a TD on that play. That is what @EastStreet's point is - you can call plays for those TEs with good scheming. Not every play depends on your guy beating the other guy 1-on-1. Most teams play zones to squeeze gaps in the end zone and scheme, more than individual ability to win 1-on-1s matter just as much, more so with a less mobile QB.

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2 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

Just because they are not good at being RZ alphas, it does not mean you cannot scheme them open. Look at that first drive TD for MAC vs the Bears. Fantastic play call!!! You don't need to be an elite TE to get a TD on that play. That is what @EastStreet's point is - you can call plays for those TEs with good scheming. Not every play depends on your guy beating the other guy 1-on-1. Most teams play zones to squeeze gaps in the end zone and scheme, more than individual ability to win 1-on-1s matter just as much, more so with a less mobile QB.

Oh I agree man with scheme, but you are not always going to fool people.  You don't have to be in man to be a red zone mismatch.  Essentially everything is man in a sense close to the goal line though, unless the QB breaks containment, and we don't have that.

Just now, Nickster said:

Oh I agree man with scheme, but you are not always going to fool people.  Frank and mother others have a bag of tricks that work.  The Pittman play worked this weekend.  The execution failed. 

 

You don't have to be in man to be a red zone mismatch.  Essentially everything is man in a sense close to the goal line though, unless the QB breaks containment, and we don't have that.

 

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Seemed like Reich liked to overcomplicate it. How many times did you see a goalline fade to MAC or Pittman?! Both are great in contested catch situations. I can't count even once. Other teams use it all the time. Pittman at 6'4 over an average 6ft corner is likely gunna be a TD or a penalty. Rivers use to do it with Mike Williams all the time, so you can't put it on Rivers.

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42 minutes ago, Nickster said:

Teams have adjusted to the TE usage.   They are not targeted as much league wide as they were say 5 years ago

 

We have less RZ targets to TEs this year than last but more touchdowns from TEs.  

 

Our personnel does not create physical mismatches in the RZ.  MAC is big but pretty clunky.  Doyle is just not a mismatch type of guy.

Not sure where your stats are coming from, but the top 5 RZ teams all use TEs a lot more than us.

 

Comparing anything to JB/2019 is going to be off. He hated throwing to the seam, which is mostly where TEs would run in the RZ.

 

Our personnel does not create physical mismatches because our top 4 targets are small.... 

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No one does fades any more. It's an oudated play that data shows is almost never worth running unless you have Calvin Johnson.

 

Really good article on it here.  Only five successful goal line fades were thrown in the enite NFL last year.  There were only 35 of these plays even attempted last year.

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/29423583/so-long-goal-line-fade-why-one-nfl-least-efficient-passing-plays-disappearing

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43 minutes ago, Nickster said:

But who are these TEs and Bigs East.  You need some context here, not just raw data.  I would suspect that the top 5 red zone teams have more individually talented TEs and bigs than we do.  

 

Rivers limitations with mobility definitely have an effect too.  I think we need to bring him back next year, but there is no doubt that his limitations hurt us down there.  

I don't need context. If you read the OP, you would know I'm going to pub stats later. You are also free to look at stats from the top 5 teams. 

 

As far as comps... MAC was one of the highest rated TEs for most of the year. Doyle was the highest ranked player (player, not TE) of all the players during WC weekend....... You're being lazy.

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35 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

Just because they are not good at being RZ alphas, it does not mean you cannot scheme them open. Look at that first drive TD for MAC vs the Bears. Fantastic play call!!! You don't need to be an elite TE to get a TD on that play. That is what @EastStreet's point is - you can call plays for those TEs with good scheming. Not every play depends on your guy beating the other guy 1-on-1. Most teams play zones to squeeze gaps in the end zone and scheme, more than individual ability to win 1-on-1s matter just as much, more so with a less mobile QB.

Doyles had good separation stats for years, and is a great route runner. Nickster is just trying to convince you of his opinion, which is not fact or stat based.

3 minutes ago, Nickster said:

No one does fades any more. It's an oudated play that data shows is almost never worth running unless you have Calvin Johnson.

 

Really good article on it here.  Only five successful goal line fades were thrown in the enite NFL last year.  There were only 35 of these plays even attempted last year.

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/29423583/so-long-goal-line-fade-why-one-nfl-least-efficient-passing-plays-disappearing

who is talking about fades?

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To me Reich, his playcalling and the teams culture just doesnt have that killer instinct to close drives or games. It shows time and time again where we look unstoppable going down the field just to clam up and get cute in the red zone.  Same with games, we cant close simple. How many times this season did we only show up for 2 quarters. Thats culture and failure to prepare.

 

Franks also needs to learn how to feel the game and not just make decisions strictly based on the analytic numbers. Honestly why dont we just have the analytics guy in their making decisions then. A head coaches job is to evaluate ALL the information available to him and make the right decisions. Not just read a stat off a sheet of paper

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9 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Not sure where your stats are coming from, but the top 5 RZ teams all use TEs a lot more than us.

 

Comparing anything to JB/2019 is going to be off. He hated throwing to the seam, which is mostly where TEs would run in the RZ.

 

Our personnel does not create physical mismatches because our top 4 targets are small.... 

So you think our TEs and bigs.are as good at getting open and catching passes in the RZ as the best 5 teams?  I'll bet you don't.  

How many of the top 5 RZ teams have mobile QBs?  

This makes a big difference these days not only running it in but extending plays.

 

With our personnell.  The coach's play has to work like it's drawn up or it won't work.  For great RZ teams, the play often breaks down and the QB creates.  We don't have that possiblitly.

 

Here is an excerpt from an article from 2018 showing the start of the decline.  I couldn't find numbers on the continued decline for free but I am confident they are there.

 

"Using the numbers from NFL Savant here is a look at how teams have fared on red zone targets.

Over the last 4 years, running back completion percentage and touchdowns have slowly increased. Wide receiver completion and target numbers were increasing for 3 years before a big dip last year.

Tight end completion percentage has gone down each of the past 4 years with completions and touchdowns trending downward as well.

 

TE201431157054.56%172

2015 322 592 54.39%183

2016 319 597 53.43%162

2017 282 559 50.45%161

TE Total 1,2342,31853.24%678

 

Some of the better players in recent history have gotten older and lost a step. The implementation of the hybrid defender could also contribute to that decline. Or maybe the schemes didn’t target the position as much as years past."

 

Now if you have a Kelce or Kittle or now Waller it's different.  We don't have that kind of perssonel.

 

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Run blocking isn't on par with pass blocking. The RB's should have been able to win a few more of those RZ opportunities if run blocking is better.

In the passing game you get what you get when you don't have a clear #1 WR, good, but unremarkable TE's and a limited QB.

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2 minutes ago, Nickster said:

So you think our TEs and bigs.are as good at getting open and catching passes in the RZ as the best 5 teams?  I'll bet you don't.  

How many of the top 5 RZ teams have mobile QBs?  

This makes a big difference these days not only running it in but extending plays.

 

With our personnell.  The coach's play has to work like it's drawn up or it won't work.  For great RZ teams, the play often breaks down and the QB creates.  We don't have that possiblitly.

 

Here is an excerpt from an article from 2018 showing the start of the decline.  I couldn't find numbers on the continued decline for free but I am confident they are there.

 

"Using the numbers from NFL Savant here is a look at how teams have fared on red zone targets.

Over the last 4 years, running back completion percentage and touchdowns have slowly increased. Wide receiver completion and target numbers were increasing for 3 years before a big dip last year.

Tight end completion percentage has gone down each of the past 4 years with completions and touchdowns trending downward as well.

 

TE201431157054.56%172

2015 322 592 54.39%183

2016 319 597 53.43%162

2017 282 559 50.45%161

TE Total 1,2342,31853.24%678

 

Some of the better players in recent history have gotten older and lost a step. The implementation of the hybrid defender could also contribute to that decline. Or maybe the schemes didn’t target the position as much as years past."

 

Now if you have a Kelce or Kittle or now Waller it's different.  We don't have that kind of perssonel.

 

lol, trying hard to find something that supports your opinion... 

completion % going down, lol.. 

 

The top 5 RZ Os are GB, TN, SEA, CLE, and NO... The TEs from those teams are Smith, Cook, Trautman, Tonyan, Old Olsen, Hollister, Sternberger, Lewis, Firkser, Swaim, Pruitt, Dissly, Parkinson, Hooper, Njoku, Bryant, Hill..... Not sure any of those guys rate as high as MAC's 78.3

 

Except for SEA, every one of those teams has a TE in their top 2 RZ targets. SEA has DK Metcalf at 6-5 as their #2, who is taller than most TEs lol.. 

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15 minutes ago, The Fish said:

Run blocking isn't on par with pass blocking. The RB's should have been able to win a few more of those RZ opportunities if run blocking is better.

In the passing game you get what you get when you don't have a clear #1 WR, good, but unremarkable TE's and a limited QB.

I have to say I was shocked when I saw our RZ rush success rate over LT..... I'd love to know AC's RZ run block grade.

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12 hours ago, shasta519 said:

Rivers lack of mobility limiting the playbook? 

I think this warrants examination. If there is one area where the team enjoyed an advantage last year vs this year, this was it. Not sure if it is the total, or even primary explanation, but it certainly warrants some scrutiny.

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55 minutes ago, Nickster said:

No one does fades any more. It's an oudated play that data shows is almost never worth running unless you have Calvin Johnson.

 

Really good article on it here.  Only five successful goal line fades were thrown in the enite NFL last year.  There were only 35 of these plays even attempted last year.

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/29423583/so-long-goal-line-fade-why-one-nfl-least-efficient-passing-plays-disappearing

I was using the fade as a classic redzone example. I was more so talking about throws to the endzone in general. I don't know what the numbers say, but everytime we were in the redzone, it was either a run, or a short throw underneath or behind the LOS, hoping to run it into the endzone.

 

Felt like we rarely ever actually threw the ball into the endzone.

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30 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Doyles had good separation stats for years, and is a great route runner. Nickster is just trying to convince you of his opinion, which is not fact or stat based.

who is talking about fades?

Jack Doyle has 21 career TDs.  He played with Andrew Luck primarily.  When Andrew Luck threw 40 TDs in 2014 Doyle had 2.  When Andrew Luck threw 40 TDs in 2014 Doyle had 2.  When Andrew Luck threw 31TDs in 2015  Doyle had 5. When Andrew Luck threw 39 TDs in 2018 Doyle had 2.  

 

This year Doyle and Colts TEs caught 8 of Rivers 24 TDs.  I'm assuming most of these plays were in the red zone. 

 

It's kinda hard to believe East that you have discovered through 3 regimes and several QBs that Jack Doyle is Indy's Red ZOne answer as he passes his prime.  

 

Now what statistical evidence do you have that shows that Jack Doyle is the answer and that the entire football world other than EastStreet has been unaware of his Red Zone prowess?  

 

Most goaline plays don't have much separation unless there is a breakdown.  So that is not going to help.

20 minutes ago, The Fish said:

Run blocking isn't on par with pass blocking. The RB's should have been able to win a few more of those RZ opportunities if run blocking is better.

In the passing game you get what you get when you don't have a clear #1 WR, good, but unremarkable TE's and a limited QB.

yep

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2 minutes ago, NorthernColt said:

I was using the fade as a classic redzone example. I was more so talking about throws to the endzone in general. I don't know what the numbers say, but everytime we were in the redzone, it was either a run, or a short throw underneath or behind the LOS, hoping to run it into the endzone.

 

Felt like we rarely ever actually threw the ball into the endzone.

Gotcha.  I think our recieving corps as it stands has unremarkable NFL atheleticism.  Alot of these great red zone teams have it.  

 

I think it's mostly a personnel issue personally.  

 

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4 minutes ago, Nickster said:

Jack Doyle has 21 career TDs.  He played with Andrew Luck primarily.  When Andrew Luck threw 40 TDs in 2014 Doyle had 2.  When Andrew Luck threw 40 TDs in 2014 Doyle had 2.  When Andrew Luck threw 31TDs in 2015  Doyle had 5. When Andrew Luck threw 39 TDs in 2018 Doyle had 2.  

 

This year Doyle and Colts TEs caught 8 of Rivers 24 TDs.  I'm assuming most of these plays were in the red zone. 

 

It's kinda hard to believe East that you have discovered through 3 regimes and several QBs that Jack Doyle is Indy's Red ZOne answer as he passes his prime.  

 

Now what statistical evidence do you have that shows that Jack Doyle is the answer and that the entire football world other than EastStreet has been unaware of his Red Zone prowess?  

 

Most goaline plays don't have much separation unless there is a breakdown.  So that is not going to help.

yep

I'll tell you what, Doyle, MAC, and Burton have the 3 best situational success rates in the RZ of all of our pass catchers....... but none are in the top 3 in RZ targets....

 

So tell me oh wise Nickster, what statistical evidence do you have lol... 

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12 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

lol, trying hard to find something that supports your opinion... 

completion % going down, lol.. 

 

The top 5 RZ Os are GB, TN, SEA, CLE, and NO... The TEs from those teams are Smith, Cook, Trautman, Tonyan, Old Olsen, Hollister, Sternberger, Lewis, Firkser, Swaim, Pruitt, Dissly, Parkinson, Hooper, Njoku, Bryant, Hill..... Not sure any of those guys rate as high as MAC's 78.3

 

Except for SEA, every one of those teams has a TE in their top 2 RZ targets. SEA has DK Metcalf at 6-5 as their #2, who is taller than most TEs lol.. 

Come on East quit reaching.  

 

You are behaving as if simply being a red zone target is the only factor that goes into a players rating.  Most of MACs rating comes from the fact that he is a friggin bull dozer in the running game.  That goes for all 3 of our guys too.  

 

Are you actually saying that having a higher PFF number PROVES that a player is a better Red zone target?

 

Context East.  Context.

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