(4) Colts make All-Pro 1st team (2) Colts make All-Pro 2nd team

[CurBeatElite]

6 minutes ago, w87r said:

If you expect numbers like this every year, you have another thing coming.

 

It was one of the best seasons ever put together by a defensive player. 

 

It is unrealistic to expect that every year and now he has a beast in front of him that has shifted his role a little bit. Not blitzing as much, dropping back more. Even his tackle numbers are down because RBs are not getting to the 2nd level as much. The DL makes a lot of tackles.

 

Just tallying players above 20tkls

2020:

Buckner 58tkls

Stewart 53 tkls

Autry 33tkls

Houston 25tkls

Lewis 24tkls

Muhammad 23tkls

Total: 216

 

2019:

Houston 44tkls

Autry 32tkls

Stewart 30tkls

Muhammad 28tkls

Sheard 25tkls

Total:159

 

 

As I was saying plays are not getting to the 2nd level as much.

 

Im not able to find Leonard's blitz percentage stats, maybe @EastStreet can find those?

 

Those numbers are down as well though. His role has changed. 

 

Did I say I expected numbers like that year in and year out?  No, I didn't say anything even close to that.

 

It was certainly a very good season by Leonard.  

 

None of that is to my point, though.  What I was replying to (initially and then followed up) was @jvan1973accusing @Moosejawcolt of claiming DL had a down year... and if you go by his previous numbers, he was down this year compared to where he was last year.  @Dogg63pointed out how impressive DL's numbers were this year in 14 games... they were very impressive, he's not wrong... his numbers last year were more impressive in only 13 games, I didn't read any further into it than that.  

 

Regarding Leonard's role switching some, surely it has.  Also, teams are likely avoiding throwing his way due to the fact that he had so many INTs for a LBer in 2019.  I said nowhere that Leonard had a bad year, in fact I called him a great player.  I just said his numbers were down from previous years, which is a product of him setting the bar so high for himself.  I also said, Leonard may have gotten some voter help since he's now a household name (he complained about being jipped in the past, last year being 2nd team all-pro, not first and for missing the probowl as a rookie, albeit, two different sets of voters).  I'm not saying Leonard isn't an elite LBer, but there are several LBers who could have made a case to be 1st team over Leonard, Wagner and Warner this year.

 

1 minute ago, w87r said:

Colts blitzed 17.1% in 2020, ranked 31 out of 32 teams

Colts blitzed 22.9% in 2019, ranked 27 oit of 32 teams

 

 

These are team numbers, but a 5.8% drop team wide. Would like to see the individual number for Leonard.

 

 

Still not arguing this, nor did I try to start an argument or argue any of these numbers.  Regardless of if Leonard's role changed or not, he had less INTs, less sacks, less TDs this year with 1 more game played than he did last year... and he had almost identical tackles per game over the 2 seasons.  He's still playing at a high level.

 

5 minutes ago, cdgacoltsfan said:

Thank God the actual players vote...not the "experts" like yourself.

 

No they don't.  It's the AP All Pro team, voted by 50 members of the Associated Press, not 50 players from the NFL.

[cdgacoltsfan]

5 minutes ago, CurBeatElite said:

 

Did I say I expected numbers like that year in and year out?  No, I didn't say anything even close to that.

 

It was certainly a very good season by Leonard.  

 

None of that is to my point, though.  What I was replying to (initially and then followed up) was @jvan1973accusing @Moosejawcolt of claiming DL had a down year... and if you go by his previous numbers, he was down this year compared to where he was last year.  @Dogg63pointed out how impressive DL's numbers were this year in 14 games... they were very impressive, he's not wrong... his numbers last year were more impressive in only 13 games, I didn't read any further into it than that.  

 

Regarding Leonard's role switching some, surely it has.  Also, teams are likely avoiding throwing his way due to the fact that he had so many INTs for a LBer in 2019.  I said nowhere that Leonard had a bad year, in fact I called him a great player.  I just said his numbers were down from previous years, which is a product of him setting the bar so high for himself.  I also said, Leonard may have gotten some voter help since he's now a household name (he complained about being jipped in the past, last year being 2nd team all-pro, not first and for missing the probowl as a rookie, albeit, two different sets of voters).  I'm not saying Leonard isn't an elite LBer, but there are several LBers who could have made a case to be 1st team over Leonard, Wagner and Warner this year.

 

 

Still not arguing this, nor did I try to start an argument or argue any of these numbers.  Regardless of if Leonard's role changed or not, he had less INTs, less sacks, less TDs this year with 1 more game played than he did last year... and he had almost identical tackles per game over the 2 seasons.  He's still playing at a high level.

 

 

No they don't.  It's the AP All Pro team, voted by 50 members of the Associated Press, not 50 players from the NFL.

Thanks...I stand corrected. The Pro Bowl is fan voting.

[cdgacoltsfan]

9 minutes ago, CurBeatElite said:

 

Did I say I expected numbers like that year in and year out?  No, I didn't say anything even close to that.

 

It was certainly a very good season by Leonard.  

 

None of that is to my point, though.  What I was replying to (initially and then followed up) was @jvan1973accusing @Moosejawcolt of claiming DL had a down year... and if you go by his previous numbers, he was down this year compared to where he was last year.  @Dogg63pointed out how impressive DL's numbers were this year in 14 games... they were very impressive, he's not wrong... his numbers last year were more impressive in only 13 games, I didn't read any further into it than that.  

 

Regarding Leonard's role switching some, surely it has.  Also, teams are likely avoiding throwing his way due to the fact that he had so many INTs for a LBer in 2019.  I said nowhere that Leonard had a bad year, in fact I called him a great player.  I just said his numbers were down from previous years, which is a product of him setting the bar so high for himself.  I also said, Leonard may have gotten some voter help since he's now a household name (he complained about being jipped in the past, last year being 2nd team all-pro, not first and for missing the probowl as a rookie, albeit, two different sets of voters).  I'm not saying Leonard isn't an elite LBer, but there are several LBers who could have made a case to be 1st team over Leonard, Wagner and Warner this year.

 

 

Still not arguing this, nor did I try to start an argument or argue any of these numbers.  Regardless of if Leonard's role changed or not, he had less INTs, less sacks, less TDs this year with 1 more game played than he did last year... and he had almost identical tackles per game over the 2 seasons.  He's still playing at a high level.

 

 

No they don't.  It's the AP All Pro team, voted by 50 members of the Associated Press, not 50 players from the NFL.

Thanks...i stand corrected. Pro Bowl is a combination of coaches, fans,and players

 

[w87r]

3 minutes ago, CurBeatElite said:

 

Did I say I expected numbers like that year in and year out?  No, I didn't say anything even close to that.

 

It was certainly a very good season by Leonard.  

 

None of that is to my point, though.  What I was replying to (initially and then followed up) was @jvan1973accusing @Moosejawcolt of claiming DL had a down year... and if you go by his previous numbers, he was down this year compared to where he was last year.  @Dogg63pointed out how impressive DL's numbers were this year in 14 games... they were very impressive, he's not wrong... his numbers last year were more impressive in only 13 games, I didn't read any further into it than that.  

 

Regarding Leonard's role switching some, surely it has.  Also, teams are likely avoiding throwing his way due to the fact that he had so many INTs for a LBer in 2019.  I said nowhere that Leonard had a bad year, in fact I called him a great player.  I just said his numbers were down from previous years, which is a product of him setting the bar so high for himself.  I also said, Leonard may have gotten some voter help since he's now a household name (he complained about being jipped in the past, last year being 2nd team all-pro, not first and for missing the probowl as a rookie, albeit, two different sets of voters).  I'm not saying Leonard isn't an elite LBer, but there are several LBers who could have made a case to be 1st team over Leonard, Wagner and Warner this year.

 

 

Still not arguing this, nor did I try to start an argument or argue any of these numbers.  Regardless of if Leonard's role changed or not, he had less INTs, less sacks, less TDs this year with 1 more game played than he did last year... and he had almost identical tackles per game over the 2 seasons.  He's still playing at a high level.

 

 

No they don't.  It's the AP All Pro team, voted by 50 members of the Associated Press, not 50 players from the NFL.

I know you weren't arguing that. I was just saying those numbers he put up in 2019 are not easily duplicated. Probably could of worded it better.

 

I wanted to put the part that you added about teams avoiding him as well. Just forgot till after post. 

 

Leonard actually had more tackles this year than last year as well. When I said tackle numbers are down, I mean from what they could be if he didn't have the DL making so many plays.

 

As far as the blitzing stats, I was just adding them to the other stats since I didn't post them in original post.

 

 

As far as moosejaw, he has been adamant that the Colts shouldn't pay Leonard and Nelson and has been critical of both of them. Stating neither would make the Pro Bowl or All Pro team. Has repeatedly said we will see when other posters have argued the fact.

 

 

That is why he was tagged, I will say though, tagging people about being wrong is inflammatory.

 

Although I hate when people post to claim they were right, I respect it when people say they were wrong, but tagging them isn't the best practice in doing so. Let them come on their own volition.

[coming on strong]

46 minutes ago, w87r said:

If you expect numbers like this every year, you have another thing coming.

 

It was one of the best seasons ever put together by a defensive player. 

 

It is unrealistic to expect that every year and now he has a beast in front of him that has shifted his role a little bit. Not blitzing as much, dropping back more. Even his tackle numbers are down because RBs are not getting to the 2nd level as much. The DL makes a lot of tackles.

 

Just tallying players above 20tkls

2020:

Buckner 58tkls

Stewart 53 tkls

Autry 33tkls

Houston 25tkls

Lewis 24tkls

Muhammad 23tkls

Total: 216

 

2019:

Houston 44tkls

Autry 32tkls

Stewart 30tkls

Muhammad 28tkls

Sheard 25tkls

Total:159

 

 

As I was saying plays are not getting to the 2nd level as much.

 

Im not able to find Leonard's blitz percentage stats, maybe @EastStreet can find those?

 

Those numbers are down as well though. His role has changed. 

his grade in pass coverage did fall pretty far from the last two years . He still is a beast , but there was a point in the season he was taking bad angles in the run game .  He has rebounded strong the last month though

[w87r]

7 minutes ago, coming on strong said:

his grade in pass coverage did fall pretty far from the last two years . He still is a beast , but there was a point in the season he was taking bad angles in the run game .  He has rebounded strong the last month though

Its a fair criticism. I think as a whole our pass defense has taken a step back.

 

Again though mid season he was dealing with a nagging hamstring injury that can effect your ability greatly. 

 

As I said his role has changed, so that can be a mental hurdle as well, for a guy that is used to being aggressive, now has to sit back and be reactive rather then being proactive on a given play.

 

[indykmj]

Have to say that I"ve never understood why fans of a particular team care about individual,

player awards or designations.  Particularly when the media is the entity choosing them.

 

 

[w87r]

10 minutes ago, indykmj said:

Have to say that I"ve never understood why fans of a particular team care about individual,

player awards or designations.  Particularly when the media is the entity choosing them.

 

 

I will say, I agree with this to an extent.

 Individual awards in this team game can be overblown.

 

I think here in Indy though, it has more to do with the national media overlooking us more times than not. So it is nice to get some recognition. Team wise or individual wise.

[Moosejawcolt]

2 hours ago, CurBeatElite said:

 

Did I say I expected numbers like that year in and year out?  No, I didn't say anything even close to that.

 

It was certainly a very good season by Leonard.  

 

None of that is to my point, though.  What I was replying to (initially and then followed up) was @jvan1973accusing @Moosejawcolt of claiming DL had a down year... and if you go by his previous numbers, he was down this year compared to where he was last year.  @Dogg63pointed out how impressive DL's numbers were this year in 14 games... they were very impressive, he's not wrong... his numbers last year were more impressive in only 13 games, I didn't read any further into it than that.  

 

Regarding Leonard's role switching some, surely it has.  Also, teams are likely avoiding throwing his way due to the fact that he had so many INTs for a LBer in 2019.  I said nowhere that Leonard had a bad year, in fact I called him a great player.  I just said his numbers were down from previous years, which is a product of him setting the bar so high for himself.  I also said, Leonard may have gotten some voter help since he's now a household name (he complained about being jipped in the past, last year being 2nd team all-pro, not first and for missing the probowl as a rookie, albeit, two different sets of voters).  I'm not saying Leonard isn't an elite LBer, but there are several LBers who could have made a case to be 1st team over Leonard, Wagner and Warner this year.

 

 

Still not arguing this, nor did I try to start an argument or argue any of these numbers.  Regardless of if Leonard's role changed or not, he had less INTs, less sacks, less TDs this year with 1 more game played than he did last year... and he had almost identical tackles per game over the 2 seasons.  He's still playing at a high level.

 

 

No they don't.  It's the AP All Pro team, voted by 50 members of the Associated Press, not 50 players from the NFL.

God that was to long. I have a short attention.

[shasta519]

Leonard regressed big time in pass coverage this season....worse than even his rookie season. He’s an All-Pro talent...but you have to throw out that entire aspect of his game to argue that he didn’t have a down year. Look at the completion percentage,

QB rating against and lack of INTs...he was just borderline awful.

 

Definitely still a 2nd teamer...but Kendricks was snubbed big time. 

 

Very surprised that Teller wasn’t on the 1st team with Nelson. Then again...it’s the G position...and I doubt the voters go very deep into that position.

[shasta519]

3 hours ago, coming on strong said:

his grade in pass coverage did fall pretty far from the last two years . He still is a beast , but there was a point in the season he was taking bad angles in the run game .  He has rebounded strong the last month though

That will happen when you play HOU and JAC at the end of the season. Leonard is a great player though. 

[A8bil]

How often is it that a team goes out and acquires a defensive tackle, only to have that player make 1st team all pro?  Buckner was a great signing.  49ers were dense to let Buckner go, and choose Armstead at a small discount.

[EastStreet]

6 hours ago, w87r said:

I think the interesting thing is Colts had 2 All Pro guys in each phase of the game.

 

2 - Offense

2 - Defense

2 -SPT

 

 

And to say Nelson had a bad year is way off base. Take a look at @EastStreet post about win shares.

 

Nelson was #1/#3 , cant remember off top of head which was pass and which was rush, but nothing down about that season.

 

And DL was hampered by a hamstring injury for 3-4 weeks effecting his play and still had a good year.

1 run, 3 pass.

his PFF did decline however.

[EastStreet]

5 hours ago, w87r said:

If you expect numbers like this every year, you have another thing coming.

 

It was one of the best seasons ever put together by a defensive player. 

 

It is unrealistic to expect that every year and now he has a beast in front of him that has shifted his role a little bit. Not blitzing as much, dropping back more. Even his tackle numbers are down because RBs are not getting to the 2nd level as much. The DL makes a lot of tackles.

 

Just tallying players above 20tkls

2020:

Buckner 58tkls

Stewart 53 tkls

Autry 33tkls

Houston 25tkls

Lewis 24tkls

Muhammad 23tkls

Total: 216

 

2019:

Houston 44tkls

Autry 32tkls

Stewart 30tkls

Muhammad 28tkls

Sheard 25tkls

Total:159

 

 

As I was saying plays are not getting to the 2nd level as much.

 

Im not able to find Leonard's blitz percentage stats, maybe @EastStreet can find those?

 

Those numbers are down as well though. His role has changed. 

Leonard blitzed 45 times this year, down from 53 last year.

 

I think they've played more rip/liz, which has changed a lot of roles this year. The team blitzed less this year (166 vs 195 in 2019).

[Smoke317]

10 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

1 run, 3 pass.

his PFF did decline however.

Where did Buckner rank as a pass rusher?  Nowhere near the top 10?

[EastStreet]

5 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

Where did Buckner rank as a pass rusher?  Nowhere near the top 10?

I don't have a sub to ESPN+/analytics, but pretty sure I saw a tweet or something that had him in the 11-15 range. 

Keep in mind he didn't make the top 10 last year. He was #7 in 2018. Autry did make the top 10 last year.

 

Also keep in mind, that SF blitzed at an above average rate (35ish %), about double the Colts. Blitzing in general, helps free up both DEs and DTs. Our conservative approach let's OLs settle in. Average and above average blitzing teams keep OLs out of their comfort zone.

[AKB]

Kenny Moore got no love this year. Probably one of my favorite players. Same with Hines. 

[Smoke317]

No Smith is a huge snub.  I’d like to see how he ranked on pass & run blocking?

[shasta519]

6 hours ago, A8bil said:

How often is it that a team goes out and acquires a defensive tackle, only to have that player make 1st team all pro?  Buckner was a great signing.  49ers were dense to let Buckner go, and choose Armstead at a small discount.

Armstead was incredible last season.

 

But it more of a choice between Bosa and Buckner...because Armstead is a guy from that area and really wanted to remain a 49er...and they couldn’t pay all 3.

[shasta519]

6 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Leonard blitzed 45 times this year, down from 53 last year.

 

I think they've played more rip/liz, which has changed a lot of roles this year. The team blitzed less this year (166 vs 195 in 2019).

That’s not a huge difference for season over season for Leonard. Not enough to warrant only having two sacks heading into the final game of the season. But I would be interested to see his pass rushing efficiency on those blitzes vs previous years. His 2018 season is likely going to be an outlier for sacks...which makes sense.

[indykmj]

11 hours ago, w87r said:

I will say, I agree with this to an extent.

 Individual awards in this team game can be overblown.

 

I think here in Indy though, it has more to do with the national media overlooking us more times than not. So it is nice to get some recognition. Team wise or individual wise.

Understood and my statement was mostly rhetorical as I get that the reasons you stated

are what it's about.

 

But similarly, why do fans care about national media respect/recognition ? In college

I get it. Off the field entities (media, etc.) do have some influence on whom makes the 

playoff.

 

But in the NFL, all that matters is wins and losses. The degree to which the media 

talks about a team is irrelevant.

[chad72]

21 hours ago, CR91 said:

Kelly and Luke Rhodes made second team all pro

How does Braden Smith not make the 2nd team? Do they need to see him sign a big fat contract before realizing it? He’s as valuable as Jack Conklin was for the Titans last season. Didn’t Conklin make All Pro? Is there a quota or limit per team they can consider or what?

[Moosejawcolt]

21 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

@Moosejawcolt I thought you said Nelson was having only an average year and leonard was having a down season

Well, I guess I was wrong. 

[Dasteez]

It’s great to get the recognition. However recognition doesn’t win Super Bowls. Now let’s do something with it. With that many All Pros we should be a team posed to win PO games. Yet the whole world is talking about how we’re about to get blown out 

[EastStreet]

5 hours ago, shasta519 said:

That’s not a huge difference for season over season for Leonard. Not enough to warrant only having two sacks heading into the final game of the season. But I would be interested to see his pass rushing efficiency on those blitzes vs previous years. His 2018 season is likely going to be an outlier for sacks...which makes sense.

For a team that didn't blitz a lot last year, going from 12.2 per game to 10.4 is a pretty decent drop. 

 

And Leonard losing blitzes just isn't great given he's been the best LBer blitzing. For instance, he got a pressure on one of about every 7 blitzes. Oke on the other hand, only had only one pressure on 26 blitzes. Walker got 3 pressures on only 22 blitzes, similar to Leonard's %.

[CR91]

1 hour ago, chad72 said:

How does Braden Smith not make the 2nd team? Do they need to see him sign a big fat contract before realizing it? He’s as valuable as Jack Conklin was for the Titans last season. Didn’t Conklin make All Pro? Is there a quota or limit per team they can consider or what?

 

I call it the Marv effect. When you're the guy, what people presume is the second fiddle will never get the same kind of attention. For example, AC has never been to a pro bowl because Nelson gets all the attention.

[Luck 4 president]

My only question is HOW DID COLE BEASLEY MAKE IT??? I can name at least 10 receivers more deserving than him.

[Luck 4 president]

1 minute ago, CR91 said:

 

I call it the Marv effect. When you're the guy, what people presume is the second fiddle will never get the same kind of attention. For example, AC has never been to a pro bowl because Nelson gets all the attention.

Do you realize the majority of AC’s career was without Nelson? And by your theory Kelly should not have made it. 

[CR91]

3 minutes ago, Luck 4 president said:

Do you realize the majority of AC’s career was without Nelson? And by your theory Kelly should not have made it. 

 

I meant while Nelson was here. Kelly has better name recognition then AC imo. My point is if AC was not gonna get credit, Smith wasn't either. Heck even Glow has had a great year where you can argue the right side has out played the left and nothing.

[A8bil]

5 hours ago, shasta519 said:

Armstead was incredible last season.

 

But it more of a choice between Bosa and Buckner...because Armstead is a guy from that area and really wanted to remain a 49er...and they couldn’t pay all 3.

Armstead was productive in a contract year...garbage before, and mostly garbage since.  His one strong stat last year was his sack total, but he proved to be a big liability against mobile QBs, because he often took gambles in trying to apply pressure, only to leave wide open running lanes.  Teams exploited him.  Buckner was much better at controlling the LOS and collapsing the pocket.  In hindsight, they could have (and should have) kept Buckner.  He's been consistently good since day one in the NFL...just took awhile for people to appreciate him.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

16 minutes ago, Luck 4 president said:

My only question is HOW DID COLE BEASLEY MAKE IT??? I can name at least 10 receivers more deserving than him.

I heard Peter King mention because they get three WR he likes to vote one of them a slot. That way it’s a well rounded group.