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3 minutes ago, AustinnKaine said:

The market size of a team is relevant to the players they have. 

 

Good teams have more fans. Good teams sell more merch. Good teams sell more tickets. Good teams get talked about more.

 

And what makes good teams?

 

Good players. In specific, superstar players. 

 

I mean, I guess we have to agree to disagree. 

Market sizes are decided by the number of people who live in a city.  It has nothing to do with how relevant a team is or what players are on the roster.  It’s why New York is and will always be the number one market.  
 

if you want to talk a teams popularity or their value that’s a different story.

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Just now, GoColts8818 said:

Market sizes are decided by the number of people who live in a city.  It has nothing to do with how relevant a team is or what players are on the roster.  It’s why New York is and will always be the number one market.  
 

if you want to talk a teams popularity that’s a different story.

I think you are living in the old times.

 

Market size relates to a lot of things, not just boarders drawn on a map. Have you checked the view counts on youtube? Are you aware of the amount of money that ad rev provides on youtube? 

 

The whole idea of screen time, and where a market truly is has faded since they invented the internet. More recently, you have nfl games being streamed on a plethora of devices. A majority of games are watched on youtube, condensed. 

 

So no, you are wrong. Indy isn't the colts "market limiter". The colts market limiter is their success, and if you don't see that I can't help. 

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Just now, AustinnKaine said:

I think you are living in the old times.

 

Market size relates to a lot of things, not just boarders drawn on a map. Have you checked the view counts on youtube? Are you aware of the amount of money that ad rev provides on youtube? 

 

The whole idea of screen time, and where a market truly is has faded since they invented the internet. More recently, you have nfl games being streamed on a plethora of devices. A majority of games are watched on youtube, condensed. 

 

So no, you are wrong. Indy isn't the colts "market limiter". The colts market limiter is their success, and if you don't see that I can't help. 

Why do you think Drew Brees son's are KC fans? 

 

Do you think where they lived had anything to do with it? Or do you think the stars on KC had something to do with it. Not sure if you saw it, but during the saints chiefs game they did a whole segment on it. 

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Just now, AustinnKaine said:

I think you are living in the old times.

 

Market size relates to a lot of things, not just boarders drawn on a map. Have you checked the view counts on youtube? Are you aware of the amount of money that ad rev provides on youtube? 

 

The whole idea of screen time, and where a market truly is has faded since they invented the internet. More recently, you have nfl games being streamed on a plethora of devices. A majority of games are watched on youtube, condensed. 

 

So no, you are wrong. Indy isn't the colts "market limiter". The colts market limiter is their success, and if you don't see that I can't help. 

https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/nba-market-size-nfl-mlb-nhl-nielsen-ratings/
 

no I am using the correct definition of the word.  
 

you are talking about a teams value or popularity that is not the samething as their market size.  

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3 minutes ago, GoColts8818 said:

https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/nba-market-size-nfl-mlb-nhl-nielsen-ratings/
 

no I am using the correct definition of the word.  
 

you are talking about a teams value or popularity that is not the samething as their market size.  

Let's break this down a little.

 

Sport teams market size.

 

Sports market.

 

Sports marketing.

 

-- Sports marketing is a subdivision of marketing which focuses both on the promotion of sports events and teams as well as the promotion of other products and services through sporting events and sports teams. It is a service in which the element promoted can be a physical product or a brand name.

 

 

... Now, are you to say Mahomes and Hill are not marketing material? I think you are thinking fundamentally about the people physically in the "market" but, dude cmon. the web exists. You can't count it that way anymore, and say that it matters.

 

 

 

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Just now, AustinnKaine said:

 

Let's break this down a little.

 

Sport teams market size.

 

Sports market.

 

Sports marketing.

 

-- Sports marketing is a subdivision of marketing which focuses both on the promotion of sports events and teams as well as the promotion of other products and services through sporting events and sports teams. It is a service in which the element promoted can be a physical product or a brand name.

 

 

... Now, are you to say Mahomes and Hill are not marketing material? I think you are thinking fundamentally about the people physically in the "market" but, dude cmon. the web exists. You can't count it that way anymore, and say that it matters.

 

 

 

Sorry for double post, Have you seen the interviews that Aaron Rodgers does on the Pat McAfee show? Check the view count. 

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Just now, AustinnKaine said:

port industry is an industry in which people, activities, business, and organizations are involved in producing, facilitating, promoting, or organizing any activity, experience, or business enterprise focused on sports.

Let's break this down a little.

 

Sport teams market size.

 

Sports market.

 

Sports marketing.

 

-- Sports marketing is a subdivision of marketing which focuses both on the promotion of sports events and teams as well as the promotion of other products and services through sporting events and sports teams. It is a service in which the element promoted can be a physical product or a brand name.

 

 

... Now, are you to say Mahomes and Hill are not marketing material? I think you are thinking fundamentally about the people physically in the "market" but, dude cmon. the web exists. You can't count it that way anymore, and say that it matters.

 

 

 

And that’s how popular they are look at the link I sent you it shows you the market sizes of NFL and NBA teams.  
 

Here’s another link that even says the Packers are in the smallest market in the NFL.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/09/08/we-optimized-the-nfl-by-moving-teams-to-new-cities-sorry-cleveland/

 

The fact the Packers are in the smallest market in the league isn’t exactly a secret.  It’s part of their charm which is turns helps make them one of the most popular teams in sports.  
 

I am not going to argue that the Packers or Chiefs aren’t one of the most popular teams in the NFL but their market size doesn’t change because market size is determined by how many people live in a city.  Can teams popularity grow past their market size?  Absolutely.  

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The problem is that there are too many rules that depend on judgement decisions by officials, which causes each game to be far too different from every other game than they should be. Now, you can't eliminate that entirely, but football has way more of it than it should or needs to. And that is what leads to this problem with the game.

 

The play I have always HATED the most in all of sports is when a quarterback just tosses the ball up as high as he can deep down the field on a 3rd or 4th down, hoping for exactly what we're discussing here - a flag. Little or no expectation of an actual completion. ALL aspects of athletic competition should involve the results being determined by the athletic excellence of the competitors. Not something a 7 year old could do as long as the referee gives him the result at the end. That's hogwash. And I don't spend my valuable time tuning in to see that determining a game.

 

If the league would finally eliminate those piece of crap occurrences, they'd make the greatest improvement they could make in the quality of their product.

 

As for this game, to me the most questionable call was the flag on Glow at the end of the first half that took away what would almost certainly have resulted in 3 - 7 more points for the Colts. To me that was the closest to a game altering blown call by the refs.

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4 minutes ago, PrideOfAthens17 said:

The problem is that there are too many rules that depend on judgement decisions by officials, which causes each game to be far too different from every other game than they should be. Now, you can't eliminate that entirely, but football has way more of it than it should or needs to. And that is what leads to this problem with the game.

 

The play I have always HATED the most in all of sports is when a quarterback just tosses the ball up as high as he can deep down the field on a 3rd or 4th down, hoping for exactly what we're discussing here - a flag. Little or no expectation of an actual completion. ALL aspects of athletic competition should involve the results being determined by the athletic excellence of the competitors. Not something a 7 year old could do as long as the referee gives him the result at the end. That's hogwash. And I don't spend my valuable time tuning in to see that determining a game.

 

If the league would finally eliminate those piece of crap occurrences, they'd make the greatest improvement they could make in the quality of their product.

 

As for this game, to me the most questionable call was the flag on Glow at the end of the first half that took away what would almost certainly have resulted in 3 - 7 more points for the Colts. To me that was the closest to a game altering blown call by the refs.

I’d argue the Moore flag when he never touched the guy but yeah the Glow call was as ticky tack as you can get.   

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2 hours ago, Lancer1 said:

Being put on blast and publicly shamed would be a good start! 

Congrats!   You just gave the perfect example of how to get NO ONE to ever want to be a professional referee ever again!  
 

Quick!   Name me the pro league that does what you recommend?   Answer?   None!  No one does that.   In FA CG that don’t do it at any level...  major league, minor league, college or high school.   
 

It just isn’t done.  Nor should it ever be done. 

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The calls on Glow and Carrie were both awful in my opinion. Too many NFL games are heavily influenced by the refs response to ticky tacky infringements.

 

It doesn't take away from our horrendous pass rush or baffling offensive play calling 2nd half but the refereeing was a massive factor on the result.

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6 hours ago, GoColts8818 said:

Disciplining officials is hard because they control the integrity of the game so you almost have to do it in non-public ways.  Still I wish the owners had handled the challenge of PI differently rather than removing it.  The way you handle that is to tell the head of officials call it correctly or we will find someone who will.  


Officials get reviewed every game and season.  And my understanding is that their reviews are pretty blunt and accurate.

 

But I don’t know how many ever lose their job for poor performance.  Patrick Turner and Gary Cavaletto are still at it (not to mention Riveron). But that’s understandable.  They’re going to get some calls wrong and PI isn’t reviewable (though it should be).

 

That said, I’m still pointing the daggers in my eyes more at Reich than the officials here.

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3 hours ago, ClaytonColt said:

The calls on Glow and Carrie were both awful in my opinion. Too many NFL games are heavily influenced by the refs response to ticky tacky infringements.

 

It doesn't take away from our horrendous pass rush or baffling offensive play calling 2nd half but the refereeing was a massive factor on the result.

You nailed on the head. Our Dline let the Secondary down and Frank was playing shoot out up by 10 when JT proved he was getting it done.

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7 hours ago, GoColts8818 said:

So you reference the Packers, who are the smallest market in the NFL, as an example of the NFL giving big market teams calls?

 

The packers are storied franchise,  like the Steelers but go back farther with legends like Lombardi, Bart Starr, Paul Horning,  etc...

Regardless of their market size, the league likes them and the networks & advertisers do to. Their a good brand and good for business. 

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5 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

Congrats!   You just gave the perfect example of how to get NO ONE to ever want to be a professional referee ever again!  
 

Quick!   Name me the pro league that does what you recommend?   Answer?   None!  No one does that.   In FA CG that don’t do it at any level...  major league, minor league, college or high school.   
 

It just isn’t done.  Nor should it ever be done. 

I believe that most college, high school or other league referees would relish the chance to do it professionally, even under the circumstances I've suggested - if you're that good, you wouldn't mind the scrutiny in fact you'd probably appreciate it, for weeding the bad apples out. 

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This is what makes professional sports entertaining to watch and enjoy, we love the competition, the possibility of victories and defeats, questionable calls and controversy, underdogs and undefeated....now when I say market teams, I am not referring to teams that necessarily bring in more money, I am saying that big market teams are teams that have more household stars, and bigger fan bases along with a more storied historical franchise history and many Superbowl victories.... What I'm saying is we watch these games for entertainment, the NFL like all professional sports is a entertainment market, we are a small market team, so of course we are going to get calls against us, the league wants to see the ball in the hands of players that are Great at what they do, so of course there will be calls against small market teams with no name querterbacks that are playing against bigger market teams with more household names at the position, as colts fans we should know and understand how it works from both sides of the fence, we had payton manning, and we got alot of favorable calls, that let's be honest, are very similar to what was called against us this week. All because the nation wants to see the ball in the hands of well known querterbacks with the game on the line, and they will do whatever it takes to give them at least one opportunity... Much like that sequence of holding calls, against us on offense vs the greenbay packers, the nation wanted to see the ball back in Aaron rodgers hands for a chance to win the game as that is more ENTERTAINING than just having the small market underdog colts run the clock out in dominate form... You must understand that the league wants more money, just like anyone else, more entertainment equals more money. They are in the entertainment buisiness. It's what they do.... On to next week, let's get them jags!

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4 hours ago, luv_pony_express said:


Officials get reviewed every game and season.  And my understanding is that their reviews are pretty blunt and accurate.

 

But I don’t know how many ever lose their job for poor performance.  Patrick Turner and Gary Cavaletto are still at it (not to mention Riveron). But that’s understandable.  They’re going to get some calls wrong and PI isn’t reviewable (though it should be).

 

That said, I’m still pointing the daggers in my eyes more at Reich than the officials here.

I know they do I was speaking more from the stand point of publicly calling them on the carpet like some want.

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10 minutes ago, GoColts8818 said:

I know they do I was speaking more from the stand point of publicly calling them on the carpet like some want.

 

I know.  I was supporting what you were saying.

 

No sports organization is going to go very far in publicly criticizing or second-guessing their officials.  It was notable that Al Riveron admitted to Sean Payton that the officials had blown the PI call in the NFCC -- and then later confirmed to the press that he had done so.  That's about as far out on the limb as you'll ever see the NFL, NBA, MLB, etal go.

 

This is also what made it so noteworthy when MLB ump Jim Joyce publicly copped to blowing the call at 1B that cost Armando Galarraga a perfect game.  You so rarely see that happen -- that, when it does, it's refreshing.

 

That said, at no time since I've been watching the NFL have they been better at getting calls right.  And, speaking as a former IHSAA football official, getting it right is hard to do.  Replay certainly helps matters a whole lot.  I really don't know why they don't allow replay for any questionable or close call.  I guess that's done in the interest of time, and I get that.  But they're also getting call reviews turned around a whole lot quicker than they used to.

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20 minutes ago, TheBlueAndWhite said:

we are a small market team, so of course we are going to get calls against us, the league wants to see the ball in the hands of players that are Great at what they do, so of course there will be calls against small market teams with no name querterbacks that are playing against bigger market teams with more household names at the position, as colts fans we should know and understand how it works from both sides of the fence, we had payton manning, and we got alot of favorable calls, that let's be honest, are very similar to what was called against us this week. 

 

Well, I don't doubt that the Peyton Mannings of the world get a bit more consideration from the officials than the Curtis Painters of the world do.  The refs know full well what (or, more precisely, who) the product is.  I'm not a big NBA fan, but I've watched enough to be pretty certain that players like Lebron, Harden, and Curry get calls (or no calls) that supporting cast players wouldn't get.

 

That said, I don't buy into the notion that small market vs. big market plays into this.  If it did, then Peyton Manning wouldn't have gotten the favorable calls you're talking about...but Eli Manning would've.

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I would prefer to see the number of challenges changed to 2 UNSUCCESSFUL challenges per game.  If the crew doing the game gets the call wrong, why should the team be penalized?  I would also like to see the challenge timer used.  Once they get under the hood, if they can't come to a conclusion by then (90 secs), the call STANDS.  Obviously, there isn't enough conclusive evidence if it takes longer.  Now, they could go back under if need be or call new york for timing and/or ball placement issues, but the original call 90 secs or less.  Holding the ref to that 90 second rule on reviews would more than make up for the time from possible extra challenges used as some currently take 2-3 at least.  Just my thoughts.

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14 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I don't trust the REFS at all. It sucks to come off looking like I am making excuses or being a whiner but this was bad today. If we do get into the playoffs will it matter? Because if we play them again or KC we know who will get the borderline calls. I love football and I am tired of my team getting the short end of stick week after week. How we beat GB is still a miracle with all the nonsense penalty's we had in that game.

You better believe the nfl wants the big market teams to win .  Colts are in the way and pay the price .  That game was rigged from start to finish . They took back a 80 yard play the colts would of been up 28 to 7 at halftime .  Two of the Steelers touchdowns would of not happened without extending the drive on 3 rd down with a 50 yard penalty and another 25 yard one .   The refs are responsible for a 21 point swing .  

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7 hours ago, Lancer1 said:

I believe that most college, high school or other league referees would relish the chance to do it professionally, even under the circumstances I've suggested - if you're that good, you wouldn't mind the scrutiny in fact you'd probably appreciate it, for weeding the bad apples out. 

Sure...   they’d relish it.   But you want the BEST!    You don’t want guys who are WILLING to do it.   You want guys who have EARNED it by being the best at every level.  

Remember, there’s a reason the Refs have a Union too. 

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34 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

Sure...   they’d relish it.   But you want the BEST!    You don’t want guys who are WILLING to do it.   You want guys who have EARNED it by being the best at every level.  

Remember, there’s a reason the Refs have a Union too. 

I remember about a decade back when the MLB umpires wanted to strike but were couldn't due to their labor agreement, so they   thought it would be a good idea to resign en masse, forcing MLB to hire replacements - many changed their minds and attempted to rescind their resignations but unfortunately for them, their resignations were "accepted" and they were shown the door!

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12 minutes ago, Lancer1 said:

I remember about a decade back when the MLB umpires wanted to strike but were couldn't due to their labor agreement, so they   thought it would be a good idea to resign en masse, forcing MLB to hire replacements - many changed their minds and attempted to rescind their resignations but unfortunately for them, their resignations were "accepted" and they were shown the door!

Ok...   what does that have to do with what we’re talking about?   

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1 minute ago, NewColtsFan said:

Ok...   what does that have to do with what we’re talking about?   

Nothing really, but when you mentioned that Referees have a Union for a reason, I thought of officiating labor strife.

 

As for these Refs being the best at every level, that's definitely debatable! I also recall a few years back when the Refs got locked out and we had replacements refereeing NFL games, most notably the Monday Night  game between Seattle & Green Bay where there was a contested catch resulting in simultaneous possession of a pass into the end zone and 1 ref called it a touchdown, and another one called it an interception - I remember it so well because 1 of the Refs in question had been fired for incompetence from the Lingerie League, which I hadn't even know existed before then.

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18 hours ago, GoColts8818 said:

And that’s how popular they are look at the link I sent you it shows you the market sizes of NFL and NBA teams.  
 

Here’s another link that even says the Packers are in the smallest market in the NFL.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/09/08/we-optimized-the-nfl-by-moving-teams-to-new-cities-sorry-cleveland/

 

The fact the Packers are in the smallest market in the league isn’t exactly a secret.  It’s part of their charm which is turns helps make them one of the most popular teams in sports.  
 

I am not going to argue that the Packers or Chiefs aren’t one of the most popular teams in the NFL but their market size doesn’t change because market size is determined by how many people live in a city.  Can teams popularity grow past their market size?  Absolutely.  

Your "market size" is the total number of likely buyers of your product or service within a given market.

 

This new crazy thing the youngins are using, called the internet; allows people to use the "product" of an NFL team regardless of where they are living.

 

There is this cool thing called online orders, where you can get colts merch delivered to your house.

 

There is this cool thing called NFL pass that you get through DirectTV

you can also watch on hulu

youtube

and a few other sites.

 

So I mean, you are just plainly wrong. 

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17 minutes ago, AustinnKaine said:

Your "market size" is the total number of likely buyers of your product or service within a given market.

 

This new crazy thing the youngins are using, called the internet; allows people to use the "product" of an NFL team regardless of where they are living.

 

There is this cool thing called online orders, where you can get colts merch delivered to your house.

 

There is this cool thing called NFL pass that you get through DirectTV

you can also watch on hulu

youtube

and a few other sites.

 

So I mean, you are just plainly wrong. 

I am not diving back into this with you.  Do yourself a favor look up NFL markets since you won’t look at what I provided showing you the Packers play in the smallest market in the NFL.  Again this isn’t a secret.  Just because you don’t want to acknowledge it doesn’t change facts.  Have a nice night.  

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5 hours ago, GoColts8818 said:

I am not diving back into this with you.  Do yourself a favor look up NFL markets since you won’t look at what I provided showing you the Packers play in the smallest market in the NFL.  Again this isn’t a secret.  Just because you don’t want to acknowledge it doesn’t change facts.  Have a nice night.  

There is more than one meaning to a word. You are choosing to limit the idea, and I suppose that is your right. 

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7 hours ago, PuntersArePeopleToo said:

They dont seem to be, it is routinely missed calls or calls that you have to be a certain player to get the calls. And just cause you get graded every week or end of the year doesn't mean you are held accountable. As a recent graduate, professors are graded but unless they are arrested for something they dont get removed or decreased in hours. 

 

Normally, it's very quiet. People don't recognize most officials names, maybe only the Head Ref of a crew. But guys will get reduced (typically if a poor performing official brings down the crew grade) games. And yes, some are not asked back the following year. Sometimes, they get a mid season boot. Like:

 

 

6 hours ago, Lancer1 said:

Being put on blast and publicly shamed would be a good start! 

 

And this accomplishes what? 

 

Most of those guys have real jobs (from attorneys, to medical sales, to engineers, to Professor/teachers, to Carpenter foreman and all sorts of other occupations. And those brought up to replace them are by and large not as good (at least in the beginning) as those that leave/retire.

 

As I said, people don't know their names anyway. Even if they were once NFL players! (of which there were 3) But I know one of them opted out because of Covid-19 this year. Steve Freeman-

 

https://buffalonews.com/sports/bills/column-as-bills-safety-and-official-steve-freeman-loved-the-middle-of-the-field/article_d32edb02-fd22-11ea-95b9-97f7b7f98e32.html

 

And there are detailed stats sites on refs too. Like Steve's career-

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/officials/FreeSt0r.htm

 

6 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Giving a coach 2 challenges a game is reasonable and being able to challenge a PI call is reasonable because that was no PI on Kenny Moore.

 

And most every Steeler fan will say it was. Likely the rest of the nation watching was divided in some way. Nevertheless, the NFL immediately got back out of the business of overturning 'biased' judgement calls via another 'biased' judgement call. And they're not going back.

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13 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

Normally, it's very quiet. People don't recognize most officials names, maybe only the Head Ref of a crew. But guys will get reduced (typically if a poor performing official brings down the crew grade) games. And yes, some are not asked back the following year. Sometimes, they get a mid season boot. Like:

 

 

 

And this accomplishes what? 

 

Most of those guys have real jobs (from attorneys, to medical sales, to engineers, to Professor/teachers, to Carpenter foreman and all sorts of other occupations. And those brought up to replace them are by and large not as good (at least in the beginning) as those that leave/retire.

 

As I said, people don't know their names anyway. Even if they were once NFL players! (of which there were 3) But I know one of them opted out because of Covid-19 this year. Steve Freeman-

 

https://buffalonews.com/sports/bills/column-as-bills-safety-and-official-steve-freeman-loved-the-middle-of-the-field/article_d32edb02-fd22-11ea-95b9-97f7b7f98e32.html

 

And there are detailed stats sites on refs too. Like Steve's career-

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/officials/FreeSt0r.htm

 

 

And most every Steeler fan will say it was. Likely the rest of the nation watching was divided in some way. Nevertheless, the NFL immediately got back out of the business of overturning 'biased' judgement calls via another 'biased' judgement call. And they're not going back.

It clearly wasn't but oh well it is what is. Not only was the ball tipped, Moore tripped and fell. If a Steeler fan says it was then they are blind. 

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4 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

It clearly wasn't but oh well it is what is. Not only was the ball tipped,

 

It was, but, was it after the PI (allegedly) occurred? Isn't the tip rule because the defender times his hit but a deflection disrupts the ball flight and arrival time? IF P.I. occurs before the tip, is it still PI? I don't know.

 

4 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Moore tripped and fell. If a Steeler fan says it was then they are blind. 

 

By himself, or because of incidental contact with the WR? I can't remember. The latter shouldn't be PI.  The former might be.

 

I'm actually more ticked about the PI (TJ Carrie?) where Ben's pass sailed way over the WR on light to no contact?  And the Steeler WR Offensive PI on a (would be) pick 6.

 

 

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    • Come on... No, you know what, I realize some here like Doyle. I just have never liked Doyle. Doyle is not an impact player to me. Yes I know that sometimes a key first down pickup by a Doyle catch is an impact play in that moment, it's just Doyle has so few moments that he might as well be on another team making a very low impact. Honestly, Ebron in his first year with Colts ironically has been the best TE the colts have had since Dallas Clark... That should tell you something
    • I've said numerous times combined we're gonna pay around 50 mil a year.   Nelson 16-18 mil Leonard 18-20 mil Smith 14-15 mil
    • Wentz will need protection if he is going to deliver. Yesterday it was said of him he was thought to be the second coming of Andrew Luck. Lets hope that is not the case when he goes under center and gets racked all season long like Luck.
    • Luck retired right before the 2019 season.   That only gave Ballard 1 offseason to address the QB situation.  He knew the team was good and didn't want to waste a year so he brought in Rivers.   Rivers had a good year despite no training camp or preseason with the receivers.  Went 11-5.   68% completions, 24TD's, 11 INT's.  Lost by 3 in the playoffs.  I was pretty happy with the season.  Now, a year and a half later he has the future QB on the team.   I'm glad he didn't reach too much.  I suppose he could have drafted Jalen Hurts but he took Pittman and Taylor instead and grabbed Eason in the 4th round.  I think he handled this well.
    • But we got Mark Hermann.   Colts won that trade.  Ha ha. maybe if they would have used the pick they got from Denver better.   They took Ron Solt.  
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