1st to 3rd round picks

[crazycolt1]

1 hour ago, DougDew said:

Not to get in the middle of things, but just to point something out.  You're stating it like Polian was cramming everything into a short term like he was planning to win now and then parachute out of a falling plane and screwing everybody.  He didn't retire, he was fired.  The future he was supposedly screwing us on would have been his own or his kid's.

 

Obviously he was trying to hold the current team together for whatever window Peyton might have had given his age and rumors of his health ( I believe Peyton selfishly didn't even tell the Colts about the neck officially until that September, which prompted Polian to then go find a starting QB three weeks before the season started...but there were rumors about how serious the neck was before that....it was even in his recent contract he signed that spring or the year before, IIRC).    

It's not getting into the middle.

Everyone has their opinions on the how and why of things. 

Personally I thought Polian was over rated. But most don't feel that way and I can live with it. lol

[Moosejawcolt]

7 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

Yeah that’s a good point too. I think Ballard and his staff need to start looking at their evaluation process. Why are they hitting on some players but missing on some picks that should be no brainers? Are they over-valuing certain traits and undervaluing others? Are they being to cautious or not cautious enough when it comes to medical? Why do they seem to keep striking out at corner and edge rusher? Because everyone misses sometimes but there’s more questions to be answered when you miss on the consensus players that most analysts have ranked high. Because while scheme does matter, players like AJ Brown should be a fit for anyone. Especially when a guy like Rock who was thought to purely be a press-man corner (although he’s bad either way) gets drafted to a Cover-2 zone team.

 

Another point to make is that when you miss with those first-third round picks, it makes it hard to build a complete team because you continuously fail to upgrade the areas that need to be upgraded. It prevents you from making “luxury” picks. Now credit Ballard because he has fixed the offensive line and the linebacker core, both of which were Achilles heels of this team for years, but corner and WR haven’t been fixed because of misses. Edge rusher also hasn’t been fixed. When you miss on corners, it prevents you from fixing WR. When you miss on WR, you can’t fix the pass rush. When you miss on pass rushers you can’t draft a TE high. Then to top it off, when you have holes at that many positions, it prevents you from packaging picks to move up for a QB if you needed to. And now you’ve got an injured left tackle (and the backup is garbage) who had already mulled retirement and had only another season left anyways. 
 

Sadly, the Colts never seem to truly progress because we (going back to Grigson era) keep missing on early draft picks and getting stuck in a cycle of always needing at least one good player at 3-4 position groups to truly contend. And we don’t need them all. For example, having elite pass rushers would make you be able to get away with sub-par corners (although the corners can’t rack up penalties either). But you gotta start somewhere. We should honestly be at the point where we’re looking to draft the best TE and replacement for Castonzo in the first 3 rounds but man we need two starting corners and depth, another WR or two, two young edge rushers, etc...

Has he fixed the Oline abd linebacker. The Oline is near the top for pass protection but way down the board for run blocking. Everyone says we have one of thr best linebacking cores. Really? Do u watch them against teams that can run and pass. They look overwhelmed and become a non factor. Watch the tape of the Cleveland game....Both Tennessee and Packer game. I beleive Raiders and Steelers will put a beat down on us. Sure we may beat Texans twice and Jags but who cares.

[danlhart87]

46 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Has he fixed the Oline abd linebacker. The Oline is near the top for pass protection but way down the board for run blocking. Everyone says we have one of thr best linebacking cores. Really? Do u watch them against teams that can run and pass. They look overwhelmed and become a non factor. Watch the tape of the Cleveland game....Both Tennessee and Packer game. I beleive Raiders and Steelers will put a beat down on us. Sure we may beat Texans twice and Jags but who cares.

The OL run blocking might be struggling but in general is much better than it was since Ballard took over. Hes at least had some success with starter material especially through the draft with Smith and Q.

[Defjamz26]

12 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Has he fixed the Oline abd linebacker. The Oline is near the top for pass protection but way down the board for run blocking. Everyone says we have one of thr best linebacking cores. Really? Do u watch them against teams that can run and pass. They look overwhelmed and become a non factor. Watch the tape of the Cleveland game....Both Tennessee and Packer game. I beleive Raiders and Steelers will put a beat down on us. Sure we may beat Texans twice and Jags but who cares.

Darius Leonard and Walker are a solid duo. And if I’m not mistaken 3 LBs have an interception for us this season. Our guys actually have speed and can cover for once. Would you prefer D’Qwell Jackson and Antonio Morrison? The good ole 2 down thumpers.

[OffensivelyPC]

On 11/29/2020 at 6:31 PM, Moosejawcolt said:

I believe this is where u build your team is thru the 1st 3 rounds. What is your assessment of Ballard's ability to pick quality star players. Nelson excluded. Honestly, I am less than impressed so far. Its been 4 drafts.

Lay off the peyote...

[OffensivelyPC]

22 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

This is more your rush to judgement which you often do.   You’ve already decided that guys are misses before it’s time.   You’ve already decided on Turay, Lewis, Ya-Sin,  Benagu, and Campbell.   Fortunately, Ballard hasn’t decided.   Most of these guys have been hurt.  Give them the time and the health to show what they can do.   You’ve already backed off on Lewis...   maybe you’ll back off on some of these other guys too?

Thank God someone has some sense here...this thread is bananas and it could hardly get worse.  I'll take a GM that his on 3 out of 7 picks, let alone have those picks be 2nd rounders.  It's like the nincompoops here expect every 2nd rounder to be a hit.  Show me one that has that sort of hit rate, ya know?

[RollerColt]

There's going to be a lot of questions going into this off season. There's a lot of players on 1 year deals or having contracts ending. I'm interested to see how we handle the large amount of decisions that will need to be made. 

 

Like others, I see the position of LT as looming large over the future plans of the organization. Then you've got the QB position, the DE, a WR#1, a CB#1 and others. We aren't going to find all of that in one offseason... 

[shasta519]

16 hours ago, DougDew said:

Not to get in the middle of things, but just to point something out.  You're stating it like Polian was cramming everything into a short term like he was planning to win now and then parachute out of a falling plane and screwing everybody.  He didn't retire, he was fired.  The future he was supposedly screwing us on would have been his own or his kid's.

 

Obviously he was trying to hold the current team together for whatever window Peyton might have had given his age and rumors of his health ( I believe Peyton selfishly didn't even tell the Colts about the neck officially until that September, which prompted Polian to then go find a starting QB three weeks before the season started...but there were rumors about how serious the neck was before that....it was even in his recent contract he signed that spring or the year before, IIRC).    

 

I think Manning and Condon engineered Manning's way out of Indy...and there's a decent chance Irsay was involved. That team was really bad...and Manning wasn't going to spend his last few years on a team with an aging crappy roster with little hope of getting back to the Super Bowl. I think Manning's legacy was incredibly important to him...and he felt he had unfinished business.

 

Manning's last contract was actually signed in the summer leading up to the 2011 season...less than 7 weeks before he would have the neck fusion. They were in a lockout that offseason...and it wasn't resolved until 7/25...so Manning didn't sign his deal until 7/31. 

 

But at that point, he had had failed TWO surgeries (one in February and one in May I believe)...and still couldn't throw the football 5 yards. There is a fantastic WaPo article out there that chronicles Manning's neck injury and recovery. Manning knew he couldn't throw...and that it wasn't getting better...and because of this and him having access to the best medical care...I think Manning also knew what he would have to do...in regards to the fusion surgery and other treatments (like the stem cell treatment he got in Europe).

 

But the interesting part is that Irsay, who knew Manning better than just about anybody (and I am sure knew about the surgeries and maybe even Manning's current status), didn't bother to have even a basic physical before making Manning "the highest-paid QB in the NFL"...as he insisted on doing. I know QBs are treated differently...but that what type of business owner makes that type of investment without due diligence (or how does his inner circle of advisors let him). It would have been akin to Ballard giving Luck a big extension in the summer of 2017 when Luck looked like he weighed 170 lbs.

 

Either Irsay was aware of it all and was involved in Manning's exit...or he took Peyton at his word on his health and was ultimately duped.

 

But considering they both agreed to include a massive $27M option bonus due the following spring...essentially a poison pill that would end the contract if there even any question about Manning's health...I think it's pretty clear they both knew there was considerable risk due to Manning's neck. But the rub is that it was actually Manning (and Condon) who insisted on the roster option...and I think they did it because they knew what was coming and knew the Colts wouldn't/couldn't pick it up. And they even made the option decision due 5 days BEFORE the start of the league year...so that the Colts would have to pick it up to even trade him.

 

Basically...Manning would be a FA and would get to choose his next team to cement his legacy...and the Colts would rebuild...which is what Irsay wanted. And most of the fanbase would accept and understand why he left. It was pretty ingenious actually. 

 

 

 

[Stephen]

On 11/29/2020 at 7:34 PM, Moosejawcolt said:

Thank u....thank u. Finally someone agrees with me on Leonard lol. The D is a big problem.  I totally agree with u on scheme. That is totally on Ballard. He wanted to employ it  and drafted players to fit it. Thats totally on him. I hate it. They keep having these 1st half  defensive collapses. That I believe takes Reich out of what he wants to do on offence. It makes him go toe to toe and he doesnt have the players to keep up. It takes them out of their game plan. I keep hearing Eberflus is a  hot name for a head coach position. Good riddance and take the scheme with u. I also believe they need a change at Oline in terms of coaching. Something is missing. I cant remember the last time this Oline blew open huge holes. Tennessee's Oline looked like all pros today and I dont believe they dont have a  lot of high picks on their O line. Before u say well Colts were missing Autry and Buckner. They did it the last time they played. If they dont make the playoffs, Irsay really needs to sit down with Ballard on the direction of this franchise. Rivers, love his spunk, but man he limits the offence. The pocket breaks down and it is over. He has zero abiltiy to make plays outside the pocket. He limits what u can do on offence and puts a lot of pressure on the Oline. I am not blaming him for the loss but I am ready to move on. One thing is evident. When the opposing defenses plays fast, Rivers is  in big trouble. That was evident when we lost some Oline men.  Either give Eason a chance or draft a successor next year. My rant for the night.

On d the biggest  problem  is elite pass rusher, need another good corner, and more depth  along dline. On offense  need depth along oline especially  at Lt  and rt. An elite wr, younger qb, better te

[DougDew]

58 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

 

I think Manning and Condon engineered Manning's way out of Indy...and there's a decent chance Irsay was involved. That team was really bad...and Manning wasn't going to spend his last few years on a team with an aging crappy roster with little hope of getting back to the Super Bowl. I think Manning's legacy was incredibly important to him...and he felt he had unfinished business.

 

Manning's last contract was actually signed in the summer leading up to the 2011 season...less than 7 weeks before he would have the neck fusion. They were in a lockout that offseason...and it wasn't resolved until 7/25...so Manning didn't sign his deal until 7/31. 

 

But at that point, he had had failed TWO surgeries (one in February and one in May I believe)...and still couldn't throw the football 5 yards. There is a fantastic WaPo article out there that chronicles Manning's neck injury and recovery. Manning knew he couldn't throw...and that it wasn't getting better...and because of this and him having access to the best medical care...I think Manning also knew what he would have to do...in regards to the fusion surgery and other treatments (like the stem cell treatment he got in Europe).

 

But the interesting part is that Irsay, who knew Manning better than just about anybody (and I am sure knew about the surgeries and maybe even Manning's current status), didn't bother to have even a basic physical before making Manning "the highest-paid QB in the NFL"...as he insisted on doing. I know QBs are treated differently...but that what type of business owner makes that type of investment without due diligence (or how does his inner circle of advisors let him). It would have been akin to Ballard giving Luck a big extension in the summer of 2017 when Luck looked like he weighed 170 lbs.

 

Either Irsay was aware of it all and was involved in Manning's exit...or he took Peyton at his word on his health and was ultimately duped.

 

But considering they both agreed to include a massive $27M option bonus due the following spring...essentially a poison pill that would end the contract if there even any question about Manning's health...I think it's pretty clear they both knew there was considerable risk due to Manning's neck. But the rub is that it was actually Manning (and Condon) who insisted on the roster option...and I think they did it because they knew what was coming and knew the Colts wouldn't/couldn't pick it up. And they even made the option decision due 5 days BEFORE the start of the league year...so that the Colts would have to pick it up to even trade him.

 

Basically...Manning would be a FA and would get to choose his next team to cement his legacy...and the Colts would rebuild...which is what Irsay wanted. And most of the fanbase would accept and understand why he left. It was pretty ingenious actually. 

 

 

 

Well, with a contract having a roster option trigger only 9 months away from its signing, it seems obvious that Irsay wanted an out due to the neck situation.  So at the time of the contract, he's thinking that he's going to pay PM the option and rebuilding by cutting other players if the neck is healthy, not really helping PM exit Indy, IMO.  He doesn't know that his team will earn the first pick in the draft and be in position to take Luck, so I don't see why he would intentionally help PM engineer an exit from Indy at the time he signed the contract.

 

And where is Polian in all of this if the owner is cool to PMs exit motives?  Strung along making personnel decisions not knowing bigger decisions have already been made? 

 

IDK, just seems to me that things aligned in the spring of 2012 after the Colts earned the first pick and Luck was sitting there that Irsay decided to reload a new legacy around a new QB for the next 15 years with younger GM, not named Chris Polian,  to grow with.

 

 

 

[Dingus McGirt]

On 11/30/2020 at 12:22 PM, John Hammonds said:

Just for some perspective, here are the first four years' picks from Hall Of Fame GM Bill Polian.  Not every pick is a home run.  Even for the best GM's.

 

1998 Draft

1/1 QB Peyton Manning - hall of fame, multiple pro bowls

2/32 WR Jerome Pathon - meh, didn't last long

3/71 WR E. G. Green - better than meh, but nothing to shout about

4/93 G Steve McKinney - didn't last, injury issues i think

5/135 LB Antony Jordan - meh

7/190 G Aaron Taylor - nada

7/231 DB Corey Gaines - nada

1999 Draft

1/4 RB Edgerrin James - hall of fame, multiple pro bowls

2/36 LB Mike Peterson - pretty good, left via free agency

3/63 G Brandon Burlesworth - backup, meh

4/96 CB Paul Miranda - meh

5/139 DE Brad Scioli - started some games, but not amazing

7/210 P Hunter Smith - long time punter

7/250 LB Corey Terry - meh

2000 Draft

1/28 LB Rob Morris - multiple year starter, but did not fit into scheme

2/59 LB Marcus Washington - pro bowl one year, but did not last long

3/91 CB David Macklin - high hopes, but had injuries

4/122 DT Josh Williams - meh

5/138 C Matt Johnson - super meh

7/235 DT Rob Renes - meh

7/238 CB Rodregis Brooks - backup and meh

2001 Draft

1/30 WR Reggie Wayne - multiple pro bowls, potential hall of fame

2/37 S Idrees Bashir - multiple year starter

3/91 S Corey Bird - backup

4/118 T Ryan Diem - multiple year starter

5/152 CB Raymond Walls - meh

6/193 S Jason Doering - meh

7/220 G Rick DeMulling - started some games, but not memorable

 

Three absolute strikes.  Eight good players.  Obviously a better record than CB's first four years.  But CB isn't doing too badly by comparison.

Brandon Burlsworth...really, sir?

[John Hammonds]

3 hours ago, Dingus McGirt said:

Brandon Burlsworth...really, sir?

Yes, I was already reminded of my grave error in not remembering his untimely death.  Bad on me.

[chickenMan]

I like Ballard and trust him leading this team forward

[Dingus McGirt]

11 hours ago, John Hammonds said:

Yes, I was already reminded of my grave error in not remembering his untimely death.  Bad on me.

Sorry, I didn't see where anyone had taken umbrage.  "Grave" error?  Ouch   :^)

[shasta519]

On 12/1/2020 at 2:15 PM, DougDew said:

Well, with a contract having a roster option trigger only 9 months away from its signing, it seems obvious that Irsay wanted an out due to the neck situation.  So at the time of the contract, he's thinking that he's going to pay PM the option and rebuilding by cutting other players if the neck is healthy, not really helping PM exit Indy, IMO.  He doesn't know that his team will earn the first pick in the draft and be in position to take Luck, so I don't see why he would intentionally help PM engineer an exit from Indy at the time he signed the contract.

 

And where is Polian in all of this if the owner is cool to PMs exit motives?  Strung along making personnel decisions not knowing bigger decisions have already been made? 

 

IDK, just seems to me that things aligned in the spring of 2012 after the Colts earned the first pick and Luck was sitting there that Irsay decided to reload a new legacy around a new QB for the next 15 years with younger GM, not named Chris Polian,  to grow with.

 

 

 

 

Admittedly...the theory is somewhat half-baked...because I don't have all of the information obviously. And this is a bit of a rabbit hole. But I just can't get past how contrived it seemed.

 

I am sure Irsay was happy to have an out...but it was actually Manning that insisted on it. And I just don't know what motivation he would have to incentivize the Colts to release him...unless he wanted to be released. And why have it due 5 days before the start of the league year...unless you are protecting against a trade? 

 

Overall, Irsay's motives and involvement are questionable I agree. I am sure he thought at some point in early 2011 (before Manning second failed surgery)....that they might be able to make one more one-year run with that team...and he has even said this. 

 

But there are also quotes from him that would imply he was ready to rebuild at that time...like this one from May of '15...where he said "People forget how empty the cupboards were in 2011 when we started this rebuilding process." And he always lamented only winning one ring with that 2000s team...so I think he was definitely ready to move on.

 

And then...TWO days after Manning has the fusion surgery and one day before the Colts season opener...Polian was actually in Durham scouting Luck against Duke (and Cutcliffe...who Manning would eventually rehab with months later). Perhaps just due diligence...but that doesn't sound like your typical due diligence from a team that is going to move forward with Manning.

 

As for the contract part...as we saw with Luck...Irsay is not averse to letting his franchise players keep their money. He let Luck keep his...and he let Freeney play out his bloated deal. So I don't think it's at all a stretch for Irsay to see Manning's contract in 2011 as a parting gift...essentially the signing bonus and base salary for that year.

 

But the NFL was also in a lockout that year...and season ticket sales were down 53% across the league...so I am sure Irsay was feeling the pinch. I think it's absolutely feasible that he would use the Manning deal to excite the fanbase. They would also leave Manning on the roster all season...and hint that he could return at some point...when they absolutely knew he wouldn't...so they weren't above putting on a show. 

 

And when Irsay would later string along the fanbase in regards to Luck's return...it was just straight out of his playbook from the Manning injury. (You could even speculate that they did the same thing when Luck retired...but we don't know how early they knew...so we will just have to take them at their word that it was a shock.)

 

There are a lot of parallels between the Manning and Luck injuries...from how those two rehabbed (going to Europe and working with private instructions) to how the Colts org. handled it. I think the org. knew there was a minimal chance those guys would play...but not only did they mislead fans by hinting at return dates...they also did nothing to address QB until the PS. They had a bit of an excuse in 2011...but when Luck was hurt in 2017...they seemed perfectly content going into that season with Tolzien...until the JB deal fell in their lap. And after seeing what happened in 2011...I think they knew it would be a rebuilding year.

 

And there is a common denominator for those two seasons...Irsay. So yeah...I don't really like the "t" word that gets everyone triggered...but you would have to be naive to think that NFL teams don't use rebuilding years to get early picks. In the Colts case...one of those years landed them a generational QB and the other year landed them a generational G AND 3 2nd round picks. 

 

As for Polian...who knows. Maybe he just didn't care...because he knew he was gone. That was his team...and that era was over anyways. So maybe out of mutual respect...he spent that last year in an advisory role.

 

 

 

[GoColts8818]

46 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

 

Admittedly...the theory is somewhat half-baked...because I don't have all of the information obviously. And this is a bit of a rabbit hole. But I just can't get past how contrived it seemed.

 

I am sure Irsay was happy to have an out...but it was actually Manning that insisted on it. And I just don't know what motivation he would have to incentivize the Colts to release him...unless he wanted to be released. And why have it due 5 days before the start of the league year...unless you are protecting against a trade? 

 

Overall, Irsay's motives and involvement are questionable I agree. I am sure he thought at some point in early 2011 (before Manning second failed surgery)....that they might be able to make one more one-year run with that team...and he has even said this. 

 

But there are also quotes from him that would imply he was ready to rebuild at that time...like this one from May of '15...where he said "People forget how empty the cupboards were in 2011 when we started this rebuilding process." And he always lamented only winning one ring with that 2000s team...so I think he was definitely ready to move on.

 

And then...TWO days after Manning has the fusion surgery and one day before the Colts season opener...Polian was actually in Durham scouting Luck against Duke (and Cutcliffe...who Manning would eventually rehab with months later). Perhaps just due diligence...but that doesn't sound like your typical due diligence from a team that is going to move forward with Manning.

 

As for the contract part...as we saw with Luck...Irsay is not averse to letting his franchise players keep their money. He let Luck keep his...and he let Freeney play out his bloated deal. So I don't think it's at all a stretch for Irsay to see Manning's contract in 2011 as a parting gift...essentially the signing bonus and base salary for that year.

 

But the NFL was also in a lockout that year...and season ticket sales were down 53% across the league...so I am sure Irsay was feeling the pinch. I think it's absolutely feasible that he would use the Manning deal to excite the fanbase. They would also leave Manning on the roster all season...and hint that he could return at some point...when they absolutely knew he wouldn't...so they weren't above putting on a show. 

 

And when Irsay would later string along the fanbase in regards to Luck's return...it was just straight out of his playbook from the Manning injury. (You could even speculate that they did the same thing when Luck retired...but we don't know how early they knew...so we will just have to take them at their word that it was a shock.)

 

There are a lot of parallels between the Manning and Luck injuries...from how those two rehabbed (going to Europe and working with private instructions) to how the Colts org. handled it. I think the org. knew there was a minimal chance those guys would play...but not only did they mislead fans by hinting at return dates...they also did nothing to address QB until the PS. They had a bit of an excuse in 2011...but when Luck was hurt in 2017...they seemed perfectly content going into that season with Tolzien...until the JB deal fell in their lap. And after seeing what happened in 2011...I think they knew it would be a rebuilding year.

 

And there is a common denominator for those two seasons...Irsay. So yeah...I don't really like the "t" word that gets everyone triggered...but you would have to be naive to think that NFL teams don't use rebuilding years to get early picks. In the Colts case...one of those years landed them a generational QB and the other year landed them a generational G AND 3 2nd round picks. 

 

As for Polian...who knows. Maybe he just didn't care...because he knew he was gone. That was his team...and that era was over anyways. So maybe out of mutual respect...he spent that last year in an advisory role.

 

 

 

People around Manning have  said and the Colts and Manning haven’t denied that Manning wanted them to have an out because he knew he needed the neck surgery and he didn’t think it was fair for the Colts to be on the hook for that contract if things went south.  

[DougDew]

57 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

 

Admittedly...the theory is somewhat half-baked...because I don't have all of the information obviously. And this is a bit of a rabbit hole. But I just can't get past how contrived it seemed.

 

I am sure Irsay was happy to have an out...but it was actually Manning that insisted on it. And I just don't know what motivation he would have to incentivize the Colts to release him...unless he wanted to be released. And why have it due 5 days before the start of the league year...unless you are protecting against a trade? 

 

Overall, Irsay's motives and involvement are questionable I agree. I am sure he thought at some point in early 2011 (before Manning second failed surgery)....that they might be able to make one more one-year run with that team...and he has even said this. 

 

But there are also quotes from him that would imply he was ready to rebuild at that time...like this one from May of '15...where he said "People forget how empty the cupboards were in 2011 when we started this rebuilding process." And he always lamented only winning one ring with that 2000s team...so I think he was definitely ready to move on.

 

And then...TWO days after Manning has the fusion surgery and one day before the Colts season opener...Polian was actually in Durham scouting Luck against Duke (and Cutcliffe...who Manning would eventually rehab with months later). Perhaps just due diligence...but that doesn't sound like your typical due diligence from a team that is going to move forward with Manning.

 

As for the contract part...as we saw with Luck...Irsay is not averse to letting his franchise players keep their money. He let Luck keep his...and he let Freeney play out his bloated deal. So I don't think it's at all a stretch for Irsay to see Manning's contract in 2011 as a parting gift...essentially the signing bonus and base salary for that year.

 

But the NFL was also in a lockout that year...and season ticket sales were down 53% across the league...so I am sure Irsay was feeling the pinch. I think it's absolutely feasible that he would use the Manning deal to excite the fanbase. They would also leave Manning on the roster all season...and hint that he could return at some point...when they absolutely knew he wouldn't...so they weren't above putting on a show. 

 

And when Irsay would later string along the fanbase in regards to Luck's return...it was just straight out of his playbook from the Manning injury. (You could even speculate that they did the same thing when Luck retired...but we don't know how early they knew...so we will just have to take them at their word that it was a shock.)

 

There are a lot of parallels between the Manning and Luck injuries...from how those two rehabbed (going to Europe and working with private instructions) to how the Colts org. handled it. I think the org. knew there was a minimal chance those guys would play...but not only did they mislead fans by hinting at return dates...they also did nothing to address QB until the PS. They had a bit of an excuse in 2011...but when Luck was hurt in 2017...they seemed perfectly content going into that season with Tolzien...until the JB deal fell in their lap. And after seeing what happened in 2011...I think they knew it would be a rebuilding year.

 

And there is a common denominator for those two seasons...Irsay. So yeah...I don't really like the "t" word that gets everyone triggered...but you would have to be naive to think that NFL teams don't use rebuilding years to get early picks. In the Colts case...one of those years landed them a generational QB and the other year landed them a generational G AND 3 2nd round picks. 

 

As for Polian...who knows. Maybe he just didn't care...because he knew he was gone. That was his team...and that era was over anyways. So maybe out of mutual respect...he spent that last year in an advisory role.

 

 

 

Nice comment.  But I think you give these FO types a little too much credit for being able to see the future.

 

A few thoughts.  I don't think there can be too much weight put into any definite plans either Irsay or Manning had before the neck surgery.  The surgery worked, and he went on to play three more years at a pretty good level...at least the first two.  I think both sides were hedging against either scenario, the arm returning or not, and both sides having different motivations, so it looks like a boxing match where the two sides are dancing around the ring fighting for the best position, but not committing to anything, up until August when he goes under the knife.  Why PM insisted the contract should force the Colts hands 5 days before the new league year is something I'd have to think about.

 

Polian has said that his biggest mistake with PM teams was not having a viable backup QB.  In a rare moment of honest humility, he said that he kicked himself for not drafting Andy Dalton (Spring 2011 draft, would have been our 3rd round pick I think) at the time and knew that not drafting him was the wrong decision the moment it was made.  So it seems that having to go into the season with Painter and then being cornered into finding Kerry Collins in September was just a big screw up more than a plan.  JMO.  

 

And the cupboards were bare when the 2011 season closed.  Once Luck became available to us by him declaring and us having the first pick, old guys like Clark, Saturday, Tamme were expendable.  I think others retired too.  Freeney was just hanging out with a fat contract and still useful but he was excess.  Reggie stayed, Mathis stayed, and AC was heading into his second year.  Not to move on to RG, but one of the reasons he drafted Fleener then DA was because there was no TE on the roster, none, and few olinemen.  Couldn't even field a full o line with who was under contract.  Yeah, that's how bare the cupboard was.  Everybody left.

 

Also, around that time there was an interview with Polian about his thoughts on Luck and RGIII.  It came off as sounding like he had more good things to say about RGIII than Luck, so I wondered if Irsay was worried that BP was seriously thinking about picking the wrong QB. 

[shasta519]

6 hours ago, GoColts8818 said:

People around Manning have  said and the Colts and Manning haven’t denied that Manning wanted them to have an out because he knew he needed the neck surgery and he didn’t think it was fair for the Colts to be on the hook for that contract if things went south.  

Yeah I think he absolutely knew. The “setback” in TC was just spin. 

 

I have heard the same thing...that Manning was trying to protect the Colts. It’s a nice narrative...and maybe it’s true. But there are lots of ways to structure a contract to protect a team. The sheer size of the option makes it seem (to me) that it was definitely an intentional out...because what team was going to pick up that option in that scenario? Especially if they knew about the severity of the neck injury. $28M is probably like $45M in today’s NFL...it’s huge. 

 

I think it was just a very convenient way for Manning and the Colts to move on...because most of the fanbase would get it...from the financial narrative standpoint. He’s the GOAT...and I can’t imagine he wanted to play out his career on that 2011 team. He had just dragged them to the playoffs and they lost in the 1st round. That era was over.

 

 

[DougDew]

20 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

Yeah I think he absolutely knew. The “setback” in TC was just spin. 

 

I have heard the same thing...that Manning was trying to protect the Colts. It’s a nice narrative...and maybe it’s true. But there are lots of ways to structure a contract to protect a team. The sheer size of the option makes it seem (to me) that it was definitely an intentional out...because what team was going to pick up that option in that scenario? Especially if they knew about the severity of the neck injury. $28M is probably like $45M in today’s NFL...it’s huge. 

 

I think it was just a very convenient way for Manning and the Colts to move on...because most of the fanbase would get it...from the financial narrative standpoint. He’s the GOAT...and I can’t imagine he wanted to play out his career on that 2011 team. He had just dragged them to the playoffs and they lost in the 1st round. That era was over.

 

 

Why wouldn't it be an option based upon the outcome of the surgery?  If it went well and he healed, pay it, if not don't.

 

Manning gets healed.  Intends to play three more years.  We want him too, then pay him the option to secure him for the remainder of his career.

 

If the surgery does not go well, don't pay the option before the new league year, then you're cleared to go find a FA QB.  PM isn't going to hold back the Colts from finding a new QB if his neck/arm is done.  He'd get cut anyway and retire.

 

The wild card was, which nobody knew, or could at least count on, was that we earned the first pick in the draft and Luck had another good season as a Junior and declared.

 

So even though the surgery went well, Irsay decided to start another legacy with a new QB and a new FO. 

[stitches]

Here's something I've been avoiding talking about, because I don't want to be debbie downer......... but Michael Pittman has not been as good as his raw numbers indicate. He's been force fed and schemed open on crossers like crazy. He's catching balls with noone even close to him(on broken assignments or artificial picks) and he's dropping balls with people around him. He's not winning one-on-one. Almost all of his success has been from the slot on schemed crossing routes. Now... the positive is that he's showing more than I expected after the catch, but IMO this is not exactly what he was drafted to do and if we are honest there probably should be players with better traits and skills for that role on the roster(Campbell... even TY). I've been kind of disappointed in him this season. He's not showing much of what he was drafted to do. He has real trouble separating one on one, he has trouble out-physicalling his opponents both on his releases and at the catch point(and this is a shocking development for me because I thought this would be a strong side to his game coming into the league). This is coming from someone who loved him as a prospect and thought he would be a very good X receiver. He's shown nothing this season to suggest that X receiver is in his future. 

 

Lets hope he improves and shows us more by the end of the year or even next year. 

[NewColtsFan]

28 minutes ago, stitches said:

Here's something I've been avoiding talking about, because I don't want to be debbie downer......... but Michael Pittman has not been as good as his raw numbers indicate. He's been force fed and schemed open on crossers like crazy. He's catching balls with noone even close to him(on broken assignments or artificial picks) and he's dropping balls with people around him. He's not winning one-on-one. Almost all of his success has been from the slot on schemed crossing routes. Now... the positive is that he's showing more than I expected after the catch, but IMO this is not exactly what he was drafted to do and if we are honest there probably should be players with better traits and skills for that role on the roster(Campbell... even TY). I've been kind of disappointed in him this season. He's not showing much of what he was drafted to do. He has real trouble separating one on one, he has trouble out-physicalling his opponents both on his releases and at the catch point(and this is a shocking development for me because I thought this would be a strong side to his game coming into the league). This is coming from someone who loved him as a prospect and thought he would be a very good X receiver. He's shown nothing this season to suggest that X receiver is in his future. 

 

Lets hope he improves and shows us more by the end of the year or even next year. 

 

First, I should say you're seeing dramatically more than I am.    I've only seen a few games, and then hi-lites from most of the others.

 

Second, I should say what I often say with you.   That I admire your view and your judgement highly.   Always have. 

 

All that said...    I think you're making far too much out of far too little.    I think expectations for all our rookies are outsized based on who they were....   but without the benefit of a normal off-season,  and without 4 pre-season games,  and then all the games Pittman lost due to injury,  I think expectations remain unrealistically too high.   Same with Taylor and others.   I'd cut Pittman lots of slack and not worry too much about what we're seeing until roughly a year from now.   Seriously.

 

I still think of Pittman's future as incredibly bright.    But maybe that's just me?

 

 

 

[stitches]

3 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

First, I should say you're seeing dramatically more than I am.    I've only seen a few games, and then hi-lites from most of the others.

 

Second, I should say what I often say with you.   That I admire your view and your judgement highly.   Always have. 

 

All that said...    I think you're making far too much out of far too little.    I think expectations for all our rookies are outsized based on who they were....   but without the benefit of a normal off-season,  and without 4 pre-season games,  and then all the games Pittman lost due to injury,  I think expectations remain unrealistically too high.   Same with Taylor and others.   I'd cut Pittman lots of slack and not worry too much about what we're seeing until roughly a year from now.   Seriously.

 

I still think of Pittman's future as incredibly bright.    But maybe that's just me?

 

It's not even about his production. After he got back from his injury his production has actually been fine. I'm not one of those who wants ungodly numbers from him to think he's showing promise. But I do want to see him beat his man off the release on he outside. I do want him to win some contested balls and show body control and good hands. My problem with him right now is that ... he just... doesn't win his reps really. He needs his man to get stuck in traffic or for a defensive breakdown to happen in order to make stuff happen. Just an example - look at what Claypool is doing. Look at what Ceedee Lamb is doing...

 

I couldn't care less if he ends the year with 400 yards and 2TDs... It's not what this is about... it's about me wanting to see some flashes of what he could become with development. So yeah, sure... I absolutely agree with you that it's still early in his career and there is time for him to get better and develop, but we still can watch what he's doing now and where he's struggling and evaluate that. IMO he's struggling with pretty much every single aspect of playing X-receiver. Which is why Reich started using him a ton in the slot after his injury. 

 

 

This is not a coincidence. The jump in production coicides perfectly with Reich moving him inside to the slot and scheming things for him. 

 

[NewColtsFan]

22 minutes ago, stitches said:

It's not even about his production. After he got back from his injury his production has actually been fine. I'm not one of those who wants ungodly numbers from him to think he's showing promise. But I do want to see him beat his man off the release on he outside. I do want him to win some contested balls and show body control and good hands. My problem with him right now is that ... he just... doesn't win his reps really. He needs his man to get stuck in traffic or for a defensive breakdown to happen in order to make stuff happen. Just an example - look at what Claypool is doing. Look at what Ceedee Lamb is doing...

 

I couldn't care less if he ends the year with 400 yards and 2TDs... It's not what this is about... it's about me wanting to see some flashes of what he could become with development. So yeah, sure... I absolutely agree with you that it's still early in his career and there is time for him to get better and develop, but we still can watch what he's doing now and where he's struggling and evaluate that. IMO he's struggling with pretty much every single aspect of playing X-receiver. Which is why Reich started using him a ton in the slot after his injury. 

 

 

This is not a coincidence. The jump in production coicides perfectly with Reich moving him inside to the slot and scheming things for him. 

 

 

It's really hard for me to comment on his play since I'm not seeing very much of the games.   On a week to week bases, I'm seeing maybe 15-to-25 percent of the snaps.   The exceptions are the two nationally televised games I've seen.    So, on that basis, I can't add much.

 

But the game slows down for players at different points.   Just because guys like Claypool and Lamb are doing great,  doesn't mean that everyone else who is not doing as well are all going to be disappointments.   Give the kid some time.  Give the kid some meaningful stretch of games.    I'm speaking broadly,  generically.    But I think the more time we give this kid,  the more we're going to see,  and the more we're going to be pleased.    Honestly,  that's my view.

 

[stitches]

3 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

It's really hard for me to comment on his play since I'm not seeing very much of the games.   On a week to week bases, I'm seeing maybe 15-to-25 percent of the snaps.   The exceptions are the two nationally televised games I've seen.    So, on that basis, I can't add much.

 

But the game slows down for players at different points.   Just because guys like Claypool and Lamb are doing great,  doesn't mean that everyone else who is not doing as well are all going to be disappointments.   Give the kid some time.  Give the kid some meaningful stretch of games.    I'm speaking broadly,  generically.    But I think the more time we give this kid,  the more we're going to see,  and the more we're going to be pleased.    Honestly,  that's my view.

 

Agree... which is why I want to give him time and reps. Hopefully he gets better with experience and refinement from the coaching staff.