Colts Workout 3 Tightends this week

[Scott Pennock]

Even with Doyle out we still have Burton, Alie-Cox and Noah Togaia on the active roster. Maybe there is something else going on behind the scenes, but I do find the names interesting in the article.

 

https://coltswire.usatoday.com/2020/11/19/indianapolis-colts-work-out-3-tight-ends/

 

 

Nick Fitzgerald and Tyree Jackson would be QB to TE converts. I remember at the combine Nick did some drills because he was asked to due to his athleticism. Tyree (huge arm) went undrafted out of Buffalo and lasted until final cut down day and believe he had a good preseason game against us that year???? All of them are good size and athletes but unlikely to get signed I would presume.

 

Thoughts on having a 6'5" or 6'7" former QB as a 3rd or 4th TE that could be used in different trick play scenarios like the "Philly Special" or an end around deep pass? Or even as an emergency QB?

[KelownaColtsFan]

Jackson is the most intriguing prospect of the 3. At 6'7" 250 he ran a 4.59 forty time. Thats impressive, but who knows if he'll amount to anything.

[Scott Pennock]

5 minutes ago, KelownaColtsFan said:

Jackson is the most intriguing prospect of the 3. At 6'7" 250 he ran a 4.59 forty time. Thats impressive, but who knows if he'll amount to anything.

What I like is the willingness to drop the ego and earn your spot going in a different route. Those guys typically work hard and have a good mental outlook.

[Lancer1]

8 minutes ago, KelownaColtsFan said:

Jackson is the most intriguing prospect of the 3. At 6'7" 250 he ran a 4.59 forty time. Thats impressive, but who knows if he'll amount to anything.

At that size, he'd probably be nearly unstoppable in goal line passing situations.

[GoColts8818]

Seeing as three of the four are hurt not surprised.

[holeymoley99]

Wonder if it means they are not liking how Farrod Green and Hentes are looking in practice because you would think they would be considered for being promoted.

[Yoshinator]

2 hours ago, Scott Pennock said:

What I like is the willingness to drop the ego and earn your spot going in a different route. Those guys typically work hard and have a good mental outlook.

Yep. I hate to bring up Tebow, but he wouldn't convert from QB to TE, and it cost him his career. Sometimes you have to do whatever you can to earn a spot in the NFL. Some guys will do it, even if it means a position change, and some are too stubborn and egotistical to admit they have to change, even if it means losing their career.

[Jdubu]

I sure would like to know where Hentges is at in his development process. He appeared to have some potential in his first preseason year with the Colts as a possible Doyle type player in the making. Had to be cut for roster space and claimed elsewhere.  He must have just bricked in developing because he still sits on the PS bench while some guy named Togaliai gets roster reps. If Hentges was going to have an open chance to get on the 53 roster, it would have definitely been while Doyle was out. Sure wished some sports reporters would dig into guys on the fringe like Hentges and others to give fans a little connection with the total team development. 

[EastStreet]

10 minutes ago, Jdubu said:

I sure would like to know where Hentges is at in his development process. He appeared to have some potential in his first preseason year with the Colts as a possible Doyle type player in the making. Had to be cut for roster space and claimed elsewhere.  He must have just bricked in developing because he still sits on the PS bench while some guy named Togaliai gets roster reps. If Hentges was going to have an open chance to get on the 53 roster, it would have definitely been while Doyle was out. Sure wished some sports reporters would dig into guys on the fringe like Hentges and others to give fans a little connection with the total team development. 

Togiai is closer to a Burton type TE/H-back kind of player. Hentges ceiling was never that high IMO. Not that tall either, limited as a catcher, etc. He was more blocker than anything else at Bama. I'd say Togiai is the better receiving threat given his basketball background. 

[Jdubu]

11 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Togiai is closer to a Burton type TE/H-back kind of player. Hentges ceiling was never that high IMO. Not that tall either, limited as a catcher, etc. He was more blocker than anything else at Bama. I'd say Togiai is the better receiving threat given his basketball background. 

OIC. I haven’t looked at their profiles but I recall that Hentges was a blocker type TE coming out of Alabama but iirc, it seemed like he surprised us in his preseason appearances in his pass catching ability. Says he just was never needed in passing game except to block at Ala. much like Taylor in his college games, he was a runner and they didn’t ask him to pass catch but he appears to be capable of it here. 
 

jack Doyle is 6’5” and HH is listed at 6’4”. Both guys were really expected to block but JD has provided enough reliability to catch that he gets a role in helping out on that front. JD is just aging quick and has taking a beating, I just hope they are able to get something out of HH to replace JD if he hangs it up soon. 
 

MAC just can’t stay heathy so regardless of what we get out of him this year or next, can’t imagine him being a future cog in the wheel. What is Burton for this team moving forward? Is he a sign and use as a piece of the main 12 offense guys or just a fill in for this year? Doyle, injuries and concussions make me think he isn’t long for this game after this season or the next and has he really been a staple in our scheme? Idk. Togaia and Green, I can’t imagine either of these guys as future 12 offense mainstays. I’m certainly not saying HH is a future 12 offense player, I am just recalling what he showed in his preseason outings and our current TE outlook. As an Alabama player, he clearly had talent to play in that huge program, I’d just like to see or hear are they seeing an ability to use that and further develop his catching and route skills.
 

Maybe his ceiling just maxed early in that first year and Washington couldn’t further squeeze another level from there and he hasn’t shown any further progress once back on our PS. Just hoping, nothing more. I’d suspect we look for a new #1 passing TE in the draft for the future in the 2021 draft. 

[PrincetonTiger]

Jackson is an interesting prospect

[EastStreet]

9 minutes ago, Jdubu said:

OIC. I haven’t looked at their profiles but I recall that Hentges was a blocker type TE coming out of Alabama but iirc, it seemed like he surprised us in his preseason appearances in his pass catching ability. Says he just was never needed in passing game except to block at Ala. much like Taylor in his college games, he was a runner and they didn’t ask him to pass catch but he appears to be capable of it here. 

He just wasn't that great at Bama. Irv Smith was a much better passing TE for Bama, and HH just couldn't win targets. 

9 minutes ago, Jdubu said:

jack Doyle is 6’5” and HH is listed at 6’4”. Both guys were really expected to block but JD has provided enough reliability to catch that he gets a role in helping out on that front. JD is just aging quick and has taking a beating, I just hope they are able to get something out of HH to replace JD if he hangs it up soon. 

Doyle was Mackey award finalist, 3 year captain/starter, and 1st team all conference. He had plenty of production especially for WKU. He actually led the team in receiving yards his last two years. Folks act like he's just a blocking TE, but don't realize he was WKU's best pass catcher (WRs and TEs).

 

As far as aging, IDK. He still runs good very good routes, and has great separation numbers. Last year he was 8th in the league (all WRs and TEs) in separation. 

9 minutes ago, Jdubu said:

MAC just can’t stay heathy so regardless of what we get out of him this year or next, can’t imagine him being a future cog in the wheel. What is Burton for this team moving forward? Is he a sign and use as a piece of the main 12 offense guys or just a fill in for this year? Doyle, injuries and concussions make me think he isn’t long for this game after this season or the next and has he really been a staple in our scheme? Idk. Togaia and Green, I can’t imagine either of these guys as future 12 offense mainstays. I’m certainly not saying HH is a future 12 offense player, I am just recalling what he showed in his preseason outings and our current TE outlook. As an Alabama player, he clearly had talent to play in that huge program, I’d just like to see or hear are they seeing an ability to use that and further develop his catching and route skills.

It's not like MAC has this long history of injuries. He's had very low utilization and didn't even play football in college. Lot of tread left on the tires.

 

Doyle shuck off injuries in 2018 and played all 16 games last year. His injuries this year are all unrelated.

9 minutes ago, Jdubu said:

Maybe his ceiling just maxed early in that first year and Washington couldn’t further squeeze another level from there and he hasn’t shown any further progress once back on our PS. Just hoping, nothing more. I’d suspect we look for a new #1 passing TE in the draft for the future in the 2021 draft. 

Purely my opinion, but I think we'll keep all 3 TEs (Doyle/MAC/Burton). We just gave Doyle a new contract. MAC is really in his first season as a real contributor and his grades are very good. Burton seems to be a TE/H-back/slot gadget guy that Reich likes. 

Hentges and Togiai are good 4th or PS guys. If they develop, great. 

[Jdubu]

4 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Purely my opinion, but I think we'll keep all 3 TEs (Doyle/MAC/Burton). We just gave Doyle a new contract. MAC is really in his first season as a real contributor and his grades are very good. Burton seems to be a TE/H-back/slot gadget guy that Reich likes. 

Hentges and Togiai are good 4th or PS guys. If they develop, great. 

It’s possible we keep all 3, idk. I didn’t mean the Colts would cut Doyle, I think if he feels beat up and concussions are a concern to him, he may walk away. Just purely my own speculation, he may play another 10 years, who knows. 
 

as for MAC, his usage is just baffling to me. Maybe he plays on the game but I’m not seeing him in the stats. He had a game with some big stats early iirc and then just nothing. Is he playing in every game or has injuries kept him out. Remember, I haven’t watched any games this year, I’m just reading the forums and some articles so my assumptions are all from that outside perspective. 
 

Hentges is just another one of those guys that was a lunch pail type of player that keeps your interest from a fan. We’ve had many of these types that just never got any traction and simply just faded away.  

[EastStreet]

30 minutes ago, Jdubu said:

It’s possible we keep all 3, idk. I didn’t mean the Colts would cut Doyle, I think if he feels beat up and concussions are a concern to him, he may walk away. Just purely my own speculation, he may play another 10 years, who knows. 
 

as for MAC, his usage is just baffling to me. Maybe he plays on the game but I’m not seeing him in the stats. He had a game with some big stats early iirc and then just nothing. Is he playing in every game or has injuries kept him out. Remember, I haven’t watched any games this year, I’m just reading the forums and some articles so my assumptions are all from that outside perspective. 
 

Hentges is just another one of those guys that was a lunch pail type of player that keeps your interest from a fan. We’ve had many of these types that just never got any traction and simply just faded away.  

MAC has been struggling with the same knee injury since week 5. He's played through it since week 8 after missing a few weeks. He had big numbers vs MN when he had a few long sail route catches. We haven't seen those play calls since, so that's on Reich.

 

Last week, he had 3 catches, as much as any TE. The two weeks before TN, he has more yards than any TE.

 

Rivers is just dealing it around to a lot of different guys, so nobody is getting gaudy numbers. But at the same time, Rivers is now top 10 in passing ypg. We've only had three 100 yard receiving games this year, and each was a different pass catcher (MAC, Johnson, Pittman). If Frank gets more consistent and let's Rivers be Rivers, we'll likely see more.

 

Hentges can develop. Not saying he can't. But just saying he's not coming in like Doyle. Doyle already had a well rounded game, and a track record of catching in college. He was simply a small school underdog type of guy. 

 

 

[Jdubu]

6 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

He had big numbers vs MN when he had a few long sail route catches. We haven't seen those play calls since, so that's on Reich.

It sounds like Reich and his play calling tendencies are a real concern. I see this type of sentiment echoed a lot on the boards about Reichs play calling and then pointing back to his days in SD. Just odd how some tend to crown him as an offensive genius and others point out stuff like this happening. Not sure what FR is, bipolar playcalling, idk? 

7 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

If Frank gets more consistent and let's Rivers be Rivers, we'll likely see more.

I’m pretty surprised that the offense isn’t more open to letting PR, a vet with a very good resumé, isn’t allowed a ton more freedom to run the offense. Maybe not as much as Mannning had but heck, he is considered a pretty football smart player so why not let him run it, just like the Tom Moore approach? 

7 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Hentges can develop. Not saying he can't. But just saying he's not coming in like Doyle. Doyle already had a well rounded game, and a track record of catching in college. He was simply a small school underdog type of guy. 

I can agree with this. As for Hentges, yes Irv Smith had the more rounded game but I believe Hentges was described as the down and dirty blocker that opened holes for his backs and Irv was more the pass catcher guy. We need both types here but at Ala, they had enough talent over all the other college teams they didn’t need to add Hentges into any routes. At any point, for me personally, I’m holding out hope that HH makes a name for himself on the team somehow. If not, I’ll find another under the radar guy to root for lol. 

[EastStreet]

9 minutes ago, Jdubu said:

It sounds like Reich and his play calling tendencies are a real concern. I see this type of sentiment echoed a lot on the boards about Reichs play calling and then pointing back to his days in SD. Just odd how some tend to crown him as an offensive genius and others point out stuff like this happening. Not sure what FR is, bipolar playcalling, idk? 

There's just not a lot of consistency in what works well, like those sail routes. He has been consistently predictable though when it comes to running JT up the gut on predictable down and distances. 

9 minutes ago, Jdubu said:

I’m pretty surprised that the offense isn’t more open to letting PR, a vet with a very good resumé, isn’t allowed a ton more freedom to run the offense. Maybe not as much as Mannning had but heck, he is considered a pretty football smart player so why not let him run it, just like the Tom Moore approach? 

I think Frank was really bad week 1 when he decided to toss it all over the field against a team that was bad vs the run. You just don't do that with a new QB who had a covid camp and no preseason on the road. And I think because of that, he got hyper conservative the next several weeks in the passing game except for a few deep shots here and there. I think he started easy up after Rivers led that comeback. We'll see, but IMO we just need good balance, and can't afford to get in a position where we get behind and Rivers has to play hero ball late in games. 

9 minutes ago, Jdubu said:

I can agree with this. As for Hentges, yes Irv Smith had the more rounded game but I believe Hentges was described as the down and dirty blocker that opened holes for his backs and Irv was more the pass catcher guy. We need both types here but at Ala, they had enough talent over all the other college teams they didn’t need to add Hentges into any routes. At any point, for me personally, I’m holding out hope that HH makes a name for himself on the team somehow. If not, I’ll find another under the radar guy to root for lol. 

I'd love to see HH develop. MAC has been my under the radar guy for a while. He looked good in limited snaps early, then took a back seat when we signed Ebron. He really busted out early this year. I just want his knee to get 100%, and Reich to use him as a detached guy like vs MN. I like Burton, I just don't like de-prioritizing MAC for Burton in the TE game. Burton to me is more slot/H-back than TE. Seeing Burton run deep routes makes my head spin.

[Jdubu]

2 hours ago, EastStreet said:

There's just not a lot of consistency in what works well, like those sail routes. He has been consistently predictable though when it comes to running JT up the gut on predictable down and distances. 

I think Frank was really bad week 1 when he decided to toss it all over the field against a team that was bad vs the run. You just don't do that with a new QB who had a covid camp and no preseason on the road. And I think because of that, he got hyper conservative the next several weeks in the passing game except for a few deep shots here and there. I think he started easy up after Rivers led that comeback. We'll see, but IMO we just need good balance, and can't afford to get in a position where we get behind and Rivers has to play hero ball late in games. 

I'd love to see HH develop. MAC has been my under the radar guy for a while. He looked good in limited snaps early, then took a back seat when we signed Ebron. He really busted out early this year. I just want his knee to get 100%, and Reich to use him as a detached guy like vs MN. I like Burton, I just don't like de-prioritizing MAC for Burton in the TE game. Burton to me is more slot/H-back than TE. Seeing Burton run deep routes makes my head spin.

Isn’t MAC’s hands like catcher mitt sized? If he can stay healthy, which seems to have been issues for him in his early career so far, I think he would really do severe damage to the league. He is quite the mismatch. 

[Scott Pennock]

1 hour ago, Jdubu said:

Isn’t MAC’s hands like catcher mitt sized? If he can stay healthy, which seems to have been issues for him in his early career so far, I think he would really do severe damage to the league. He is quite the mismatch. 

True statement. At his size though it's really the tackling that hurts him. Guys cut him at the knees and ankles. He needs to learn how to initiate the hit or avoid the ankle biters.....lol

[Scott Pennock]

Hentges went to Washington after we tried to sneak him onto the practice squad last year.

 

He had 8 catches for 103 yards and a TD in a rookie season learning two offensive systems!

 

So he can be productive if given a chance.

[1959Colts]

Hale Hentges was impressive last preseason

[Jdubu]

2 hours ago, 1959Colts said:

Hale Hentges was impressive last preseason

That’s what I recall too but then he couldn’t make the Redskins and now he is sitting on our PS. It’s head scratching but at this point, perhaps it’s just a numbers thing. I sure would think HH could back up Doyle and MAC/Burton could be split on the other two. Idk 

[EastStreet]

12 hours ago, Jdubu said:

Isn’t MAC’s hands like catcher mitt sized? If he can stay healthy, which seems to have been issues for him in his early career so far, I think he would really do severe damage to the league. He is quite the mismatch. 

I think you're over hyping MAC's injury issues. He's had the knee this season which kept him out a few games, and might have kept him limited since. Still, he's been our best TE the last several games. Injury really wasn't ever an "issue" prior.

 

And yes, guy has serious hands. But he's just not a short or RZ mismatch guy. Those deep routes vs MN showed a whole different level of use for him. 

[JPFolks]

Did anything come of this?

[Hoose]

Interesting thread here. I don’t disagree with the idea that we have three serviceable TEs. And that Alie Cox has great potential when healthy. But I do think an investment in the position via the draft next year would be worthwhile. And by that I mean a reasonably high draft pick. Doyle is getting banged up frequently. Burton is intriguing but one dimensional. A big, fast, good blocking, pass catching TE who has a real football history and isn’t a project?  Sounds real good to me. 

[Jdubu]

5 hours ago, EastStreet said:

18 hours ago, Jdubu said:

 

I think you're over hyping MAC's injury issues. He's had the knee this season which kept him out a few games, and might have kept him limited since. Still, he's been our best TE the last several games. Injury really wasn't ever an "issue" prior.

Unless I’m mixing up MAC for someone else, he has had missed games because of injury or limited because of injuries. He had the broken hand last season and has had some lower leg issues so far which is always concerning. He maybe isn’t missing large amounts of games and plays through some stuff but it seems that is limiting his game playmaking ability at times. I’m not bashing him, he could make it to the level they hoped in this season or into the next. Question is, what will a 2021-? Contract look like? Will the Colts gamble on a 2+ year contract or another 1 yr prove it type contract? I just have to wonder what his market is out there. Young, big, good blocker but still trying to emerge and can he fully maximize his talent while staying off the injury list? Glad I don’t do contracts. Lol 

https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/mo-alie-cox-player-injuries

4 hours ago, Hoose said:

Interesting thread here. I don’t disagree with the idea that we have three serviceable TEs. And that Alie Cox has great potential when healthy. But I do think an investment in the position via the draft next year would be worthwhile. And by that I mean a reasonably high draft pick.

When you say high draft pick, are you thinking TE first round? I’d really like to see that first round pick go trenches again but for a future left tackle for 2022, potentially for the 2021 season if AC either falls off or retires suddenly as Glenn did years ago. My one question to picking a LT for the 2022 future in this 2021 draft in the first round is does this team have any beliefs that Carter O’Donnell could possibly be that development guy for the 2022 season? If they do, yes, get that TE if one is available in the lower half of first round and then best cb avail with 2nd rd. That’s what I’d do. 

[EastStreet]

13 minutes ago, Jdubu said:

Unless I’m mixing up MAC for someone else, he has had missed games because of injury or limited because of injuries. He had the broken hand last season and has had some lower leg issues so far which is always concerning. He maybe isn’t missing large amounts of games and plays through some stuff but it seems that is limiting his game playmaking ability at times. I’m not bashing him, he could make it to the level they hoped in this season or into the next. Question is, what will a 2021-? Contract look like? Will the Colts gamble on a 2+ year contract or another 1 yr prove it type contract? I just have to wonder what his market is out there. Young, big, good blocker but still trying to emerge and can he fully maximize his talent while staying off the injury list? Glad I don’t do contracts. Lol 

https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/mo-alie-cox-player-injuries

When you say high draft pick, are you thinking TE first round? I’d really like to see that first round pick go trenches again but for a future left tackle for 2022, potentially for the 2021 season if AC either falls off or retires suddenly as Glenn did years ago. My one question to picking a LT for the 2022 future in this 2021 draft in the first round is does this team have any beliefs that Carter O’Donnell could possibly be that development guy for the 2022 season? If they do, yes, get that TE if one is available in the lower half of first round and then best cb avail with 2nd rd. That’s what I’d do. 

MAC missed one game this year, zero last year, 2 in 2018. None of his injuries have been recurring. TE is an injury prone position too. 

 

3 games in 3 years isn't bad. It's less than Doyle, Ebron, Mack, TY, etc.. 

 

TE is devalued. You can get a decent one mid rounds.

[Jdubu]

25 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

MAC missed one game this year, zero last year, 2 in 2018. None of his injuries have been recurring. TE is an injury prone position too. 

 

3 games in 3 years isn't bad. It's less than Doyle, Ebron, Mack, TY, etc.. 

 

TE is devalued. You can get a decent one mid rounds.

It’s not necessary the issue that he is missing games but he is dinged up, not playing at full steam and/or what sounds like either horrific play calling, usage of MAC or his injuries are a contributing factor in his usage. We don’t know. What I see on paper is he get limited in the week and then plays on game day. Maybe there is a correlation between the two. Again, idk, it just is an observation I see on paper. I could be off base and I’m fine with that. 

[EastStreet]

3 minutes ago, Jdubu said:

It’s not necessary the issue that he is missing games but he is dinged up, not playing at full steam and/or what sounds like either horrific play calling, usage of MAC or his injuries are a contributing factor in his usage. We don’t know. What I see on paper is he get limited in the week and then plays on game day. Maybe there is a correlation between the two. Again, idk, it just is an observation I see on paper. I could be off base and I’m fine with that. 

just an fyi for baseline expectations

[Jdubu]

3 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

just an fyi for baseline expectations

Meh, grafts and stats can be made into anything. I’m relating this discussion into reported injuries vs production. He just hasn’t been able to produce like you would hope and it’s either related to injuries or play calling/usage imho. If he is injured but still playing, he is not producing in that time period. One flash game in a season so far isn’t productive. Me or you will never know if injuries are hindering him from producing or playcalling is hindering him but something is clearly not allowing him to be utilized in a role we would have hoped he could have by this time in 2020. 

[EastStreet]

3 minutes ago, Jdubu said:

Meh, grafts and stats can be made into anything. I’m relating this discussion into reported injuries vs production. He just hasn’t been able to produce like you would hope and it’s either related to injuries or play calling/usage imho. If he is injured but still playing, he is not producing in that time period. One flash game in a season so far isn’t productive. Me or you will never know if injuries are hindering him from producing or playcalling is hindering him but something is clearly not allowing him to be utilized in a role we would have hoped he could have by this time in 2020. 

I'm not sure what to tell you. He's got the second most receiving yards on the team. And that's with missing 2 games, and Rivers dealing all around to a bunch of different guys. Only Pascal has more yards, and not by much.

 

As far as injuries go, he's only missed 3 games. He didn't get targets last year because we had a bad QB and two TEs that were prioritized. He only got 13 targets in 2018 yet had the highest AVG on the team.

 

The point of the graph was to show you he's well below average on injuries over his 3 year career. You're being circular on the conversation. Bottom line, he hasn't missed many games, he's been productive when targeted, and is the 2nd leading pass catcher this year despite missing 2 games.  

[Jdubu]

5 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

I'm not sure what to tell you. He's got the second most receiving yards on the team. And that's with missing 2 games, and Rivers dealing all around to a bunch of different guys. Only Pascal has more yards, and not by much.

 

As far as injuries go, he's only missed 3 games. He didn't get targets last year because we had a bad QB and two TEs that were prioritized. He only got 13 targets in 2018 yet had the highest AVG on the team.

 

The point of the graph was to show you he's well below average on injuries over his 3 year career. You're being circular on the conversation. Bottom line, he hasn't missed many games, he's been productive when targeted, and is the 2nd leading pass catcher this year despite missing 2 games.  

https://fantasyfootballers.org/te-tight-end-nfl-stats/
 

Having the best stats on the team doesn’t make him productive. Middle of the road. Maybe he will produce. I’m not seeing it how you see it. We shall depart in the discussion as we clearly see it differently. 

[EastStreet]

8 minutes ago, Jdubu said:

https://fantasyfootballers.org/te-tight-end-nfl-stats/
 

Having the best stats on the team doesn’t make him productive. Middle of the road. Maybe he will produce. I’m not seeing it how you see it. We shall depart in the discussion as we clearly see it differently. 

he's one of the most productive on the team. most productive in terms of AVG/targ... 

with rivers dealing it all around, not sure what else the guy can do.