Rivers influence on Offense

[Zoltan]

I was reading the Mailbag and Walker mentioned not doing play-action because River's isn't a play-action QB. So with that in mind and River's obviously not liking to do QB sneaks to the point that they put in Jacoby to run the play even though that increases the risk of a center-QB fumbled exchange.

How much power does Rivers have on the offense and what plays we run?

 

Obviously he has some input, but I was surprised to see that we just don't run certain plays because he isn't a fan of them

[EastStreet]

2 hours ago, Zoltan said:

I was reading the Mailbag and Walker mentioned not doing play-action because River's isn't a play-action QB. So with that in mind and River's obviously not liking to do QB sneaks to the point that they put in Jacoby to run the play even though that increases the risk of a center-QB fumbled exchange.

How much power does Rivers have on the offense and what plays we run?

 

Obviously he has some input, but I was surprised to see that we just don't run certain plays because he isn't a fan of them

 

I didn't think it was clear that Rivers isn't a fan of certain plays. I took it as simply looking at Rivers/Reich years with the Chargers, they simply didn't use play action. That could mean Reich or Rivers, or both, didn't like play action. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

JB is the king of QB sneaks  

[Dogg63]

2 hours ago, Zoltan said:

they put in Jacoby to run the play even though that increases the risk of a center-QB fumbled exchange

Interesting factoid from Andrew Walker:

Since 2018, Jacoby Brissett has converted 3rd/4th and short (1-3 yards) into first downs or TDs on 11-of-12 attempts.

Since 2016, Philip Rivers has ONE rushing attempt in those same scenarios; coincidentally, he converted it against the 49ers and was tackled by DeForest Buckner.

[2006Coltsbestever]

10 minutes ago, Dogg63 said:

Interesting factoid from Andrew Walker:

Since 2018, Jacoby Brissett has converted 3rd/4th and short (1-3 yards) into first downs or TDs on 11-of-12 attempts.

Since 2016, Philip Rivers has ONE rushing attempt in those same scenarios; coincidentally, he converted it against the 49ers and was tackled by DeForest Buckner.

JB is strong and can plow his way for a yard easily. He does have that.

[King Colt]

He keeps the team's head above water most of the time. Judge him when they play GB next week against #12.

[hoosierhawk]

2 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

JB is strong and can plow his way for a yard easily. He does have that.

Guess we should have tried more QB sneaks last year with JB instead of trying all those passes.lol

[Zoltan]

3 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

I didn't think it was clear that Rivers isn't a fan of certain plays. I took it as simply looking at Rivers/Reich years with the Chargers, they simply didn't use play action. That could mean Reich or Rivers, or both, didn't like play action. 

 

I think him coming out for the QB sneak shows he doesn't like to run that play, because bringing in jacoby showed our hand granted we still got it. 

 

Side note do you know ( or know where to find) how often we called play-action last year with Brissett?

[EastStreet]

5 minutes ago, Zoltan said:

 

I think him coming out for the QB sneak shows he doesn't like to run that play, because bringing in jacoby showed our hand granted we still got it. 

 

Side note do you know ( or know where to find) how often we called play-action last year with Brissett?

IMO, him coming out for the qb sneak is just common sense for the coach. JB is a big dude.

 

I don't know where to find play action frequency. Huddle/No Huddle, Shotgun/UnderCenter can be found here though. 

 

https://www.sharpfootballstats.com/home.html

 

Ton of stuff. Play action might be there somewhere, I've just not seen it.

[2006Coltsbestever]

JB coming in for a QB sneak on 4th and 1 is an automatic 1st down. Dude is strong and tall and can just lean forward. 

[Sumo63]

Rivers is barely mobile enough to fall down much less forward.  Brissett just increases the odds of a sneak being successful.  I dont think Phillips preferences entered into the decision much.

[Moosejawcolt]

12 minutes ago, Sumo63 said:

Rivers is barely mobile enough to fall down much less forward.  Brissett just increases the odds of a sneak being successful.  I dont think Phillips preferences entered into the decision much.

Rivers is so slow and lacks any agility that if he fell forward from the standing position he still loses a yard.

[EastStreet]

16 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Rivers is so slow and lacks any agility that if he fell forward from the standing position he still loses a yard.

I'll take that one yard loss if it means gaining about 75+ passing yards a game and on average 4ish plus points per game this year.

We've also picked up 3+ minutes of ToP this year even with our run game a little behind.

[Moosejawcolt]

2 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

I'll take that one yard loss if it means gaining about 75+ passing yards a game and on average 4ish plus points per game this year.

We've also picked up 3+ minutes of ToP this year even with our run game a little behind.

Man if Taylor and this run game got going we could b a threat. Who thought half way into the season the Colts biggest question marks would b Taylor and the Oline??

[EastStreet]

4 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Man if Taylor and this run game got going we could b a threat. Who thought half way into the season the Colts biggest question marks would b Taylor and the Oline??

I predicted that JT would be brought along slowly with Mack running most. I'm surprised Reich still has the training wheels on to be honest. Need to give him more carries, and more diverse carries. He'll be fine in time IMO.

[Sumo63]

12 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

I'll take that one yard loss if it means gaining about 75+ passing yards a game and on average 4ish plus points per game this year.

We've also picked up 3+ minutes of ToP this year even with our run game a little behind.

I'd rather just stick Brissett in for that one situational down and have both.

[Moosejawcolt]

8 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

I predicted that JT would be brought along slowly with Mack running most. I'm surprised Reich still has the training wheels on to be honest. Need to give him more carries, and more diverse carries. He'll be fine in time IMO.

Going out on a limb. This will b the week. I am some what disappointed by Taylors development. I guess we have to trust Rathmon. Mack went thru the same thing and developed quite nicely.

[EastStreet]

1 minute ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Going out on a limb. This will b the week. I am some what disappointed by Taylors development. I guess we have to trust Rathmon. Mack went thru the same thing and developed quite nicely.

Mack had it a bit easier IMO his rook year. Worse OL, but we ran a Chud O that spread folks out and made it much easier on RBs.

 

I really don't care for Rathman's rotation this year at all. And last year, Hines wasn't used correctly. Finally starting to see Hines used better this last game.

 

Hope you are right about this being the week.

[EastStreet]

19 minutes ago, Sumo63 said:

I'd rather just stick Brissett in for that one situational down and have both.

Yup. Might as well use him while you got him. Those plays are expensive though lol. I think he's averaging 2.5M per play 

[Sumo63]

1 minute ago, EastStreet said:

Yup. Might as well use him while you got him. Those plays are expensive though lol. I think he's averaging 2.5M per play 

Lol so expensive! 

[EastStreet]

5 minutes ago, Sumo63 said:

Lol so expensive! 

Eason's a big boy. Hope he can fall forward well next year.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

I have been saying we need to spread things out more to help the running game.

[Moosejawcolt]

34 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Mack had it a bit easier IMO his rook year. Worse OL, but we ran a Chud O that spread folks out and made it much easier on RBs.

 

I really don't care for Rathman's rotation this year at all. And last year, Hines wasn't used correctly. Finally starting to see Hines used better this last game.

 

Hope you are right about this being the 

Just a feeling I have. If this Oline cannot dominate the Packers, then something needs to b done

[EastStreet]

54 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Just a feeling I have. If this Oline cannot dominate the Packers, then something needs to b done

That's another coach (Strausser) I've been scratching my head about.

[Moosejawcolt]

1 hour ago, EastStreet said:

That's another coach (Strausser) I've been scratching my head about.

Yup.  If this Oline doesnt get going and finishes the season low in the rankings then the O line coach needs to b gone. I was not a big fan of when Mudd came in for a couple of weeks and suppossedly passed the torch to the current Oline coach. I think this Oline plays better when the scheming takes advantage of their nastiness. I think Smith and especially Nelson thrive in a system that makes them play mean. I think the new system has taken that away some what and now they may have lost that edge. I loved the previous Oline coach that got fired . By the way who the hell is Strausser and after 2 years, I am ready to move on. I think Reich is being to loyal. This Oline has to many assets invested to be playing this poorly in the run game. Could you imagine if the Dline had 3 1st rounders and a high 2nd rounder and were  #1 in rushing  the passer but last in stopping the run or vise versa?  We would want changes. I just wish the media would ask Reich directly in his news conference what needs to happen to improve the Olines performance. People talk about Reichs play calling and at  times being dissatisfied with his plays. I am way more dissatisfied with his inability to hold some one accountable for the Olines performance. If they fail against the Packers, who are horrible against the run, then both Ballard and Reich need to be held accountable. This team is going no where in the play offs, if they make it, with the statue of liberty(Rivers) and an Oline who cannot get any push against good defensive teams. They will just tee off on Rivers.

[PrideOfAthens17]

4 hours ago, Sumo63 said:

Rivers is barely mobile enough to fall down much less forward.  Brissett just increases the odds of a sneak being successful.  I dont think Phillips preferences entered into the decision much.

 

Ha ha, I know that was intended to be funny (which it is), but there's more truth in that than one may think. I can tell you that he's had a number of "runs" (and I use that term loosely) where whatever you call what he did at the end to end up on the ground was far uglier looking than the "run" itself .

[Sumo63]

1 minute ago, PrideOfAthens17 said:

 

Ha ha, I know that was intended to be funny (which it is), but there's more truth in that than one may think. I can tell you that he's had a number of "runs" (and I use that term loosely) where whatever you call what he did at the end to end up on the ground was far uglier looking than the "run" itself .

Hes 38 tho, as a 46 year old American Male who once was considered athletic, I honestly have zero room to criticize.  It gets ugly, no doubt.  I'm just glad I m not nationally televised. Lol.

Getting out of bed is an exercise in pain vs leverage and momentum. 

 

[EastStreet]

11 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Yup.  If this Oline doesnt get going and finishes the season low in the rankings then the O line coach needs to b gone. I was not a big fan of when Mudd came in for a couple of weeks and suppossedly passed the torch to the current Oline coach. I think this Oline plays better when the scheming takes advantage of their nastiness. I think Smith and especially Nelson thrive in a system that makes them play mean. I think the new system has taken that away some what and now they may have lost that edge. I loved the previous Oline coach that got fired . By the way who the hell is Strausser and after 2 years, I am ready to move on. I think Reich is being to loyal. This Oline has to many assets invested to be playing this poorly in the run game. Could you imagine if the Dline had 3 1st rounders and a high 2nd rounder and were  #1 in rushing  the passer but last in stopping the run or vise versa?  We would want changes. I just wish the media would ask Reich directly in his news conference what needs to happen to improve the Olines performance. People talk about Reichs play calling and at  times being dissatisfied with his plays. I am way more dissatisfied with his inability to hold some one accountable for the Olines performance. If they fail against the Packers, who are horrible against the run, then both Ballard and Reich need to be held accountable. This team is going no where in the play offs, if they make it, with the statue of liberty(Rivers) and an Oline who cannot get any push against good defensive teams. They will just tee off on Rivers.

I was actually going to make a thread on this topic early this week. Our run grades are way down (20s now). We're still top ten (#7) in passing grades, but that's a decline. It should have gotten better if anything with River's low time to throw. I liked Guge too. He's a hard *, and an "acquired taste" per some, but things definitely aren't trending well. Not sure if Frank didn't like him, but he did a great job figuring out the pieces in 2018 by game 5, and we rocked from then on.

[PrideOfAthens17]

Hey, I'm 56, with full on OMD (Old Man's Disease) well set in, so I know it, too, ha ha. But I'm even referring to "runs" of his from the first half of his career, too, not just recently. He'll never be remembered for his "athleticism", from any point in his career .

[Moosejawcolt]

2 hours ago, EastStreet said:

That's another coach (Strausser) I've been scratching my head about.

Dave DeGuglielmo the ex Colts Oline coach is basically piecing together a make shift line in Miami because of all personnel they lost. Getting good results. His players seem to love him and I remember Nelson wasnt to happy with him being fired. I have always though that the biggest mistake Ballard and Reich made was getting rid of Dave. All that capital in the Oline and they were trending up and they can the guy for Strausser. Maybe the Oline will play better in the 2nd half. Maybe they are having a hard adjusting to the different style of backs now that Mack is gone. This Oline  played together all last year so I am not sure what the issue is. I see the Patriots dominate the Ravens  on Sunday night. They have no receiver talent and the Ravens know  the run is coming but cant stop it. The Ravens stuffed our running attack.Why cant this Oline just dominate a great defence? Been saying it for 2 years now.

[Moosejawcolt]

4 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

I was actually going to make a thread on this topic early this week. Our run grades are way down (20s now). We're still top ten (#7) in passing grades, but that's a decline. It should have gotten better if anything with River's low time to throw. I liked Guge too. He's a hard *, and an "acquired taste" per some, but things definitely aren't trending well. Not sure if Frank didn't like him, but he did a great job figuring out the pieces in 2018 by game 5, and we rocked from then on.

I remember their being controversy because of what Dave said to the one Oline. I forget the circumstances but it didnt go over well. With all the politically crap out there, I think Ballard and Reich thought they had to make a move. I hated it

[Sumo63]

3 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Dave DeGuglielmo the ex Colts Oline coach is basically piecing together a make shift line in Miami because of all personnel they lost. Getting good results. His players seem to love him and I remember Nelson wasnt to happy with him being fired. I have always though that the biggest mistake Ballard and Reich made was getting rid of Dave. All that capital in the Oline and they were trending up and they can the guy for Strausser. Maybe the Oline will play better in the 2nd half. Maybe they are having a hard adjusting to the different style of backs now that Mack is gone. This Oline  played together all last year so I am not sure what the issue is. I see the Patriots dominate the Ravens  on Sunday night. They have no receiver talent and the Ravens know  the run is coming but cant stop it. The Ravens stuffed our running attack.Why cant this Oline just dominate a great defence? Been saying it for 2 years now.

I dont understand getting rid of an unmitigated success to bring in "your guy".   Just make the dude that made our O line the nastiest in league THE guy.

 

Our Oline is running on reputation this year.  They arent the dominant force they're made out to be.  Pass pro has improved, credit where it's due, but "run the damn ball" is just a slogan now.  Comparable to "build the monster" or "chopping wood" (imo).

[EastStreet]

24 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Dave DeGuglielmo the ex Colts Oline coach is basically piecing together a make shift line in Miami because of all personnel they lost. Getting good results. His players seem to love him and I remember Nelson wasnt to happy with him being fired. I have always though that the biggest mistake Ballard and Reich made was getting rid of Dave. All that capital in the Oline and they were trending up and they can the guy for Strausser. Maybe the Oline will play better in the 2nd half. Maybe they are having a hard adjusting to the different style of backs now that Mack is gone. This Oline  played together all last year so I am not sure what the issue is. I see the Patriots dominate the Ravens  on Sunday night. They have no receiver talent and the Ravens know  the run is coming but cant stop it. The Ravens stuffed our running attack.Why cant this Oline just dominate a great defence? Been saying it for 2 years now.

I don't think Guge is with Miami this year. I know he was there in 2019, but isn't Marshall their OL coach now?

[EastStreet]

23 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

I remember their being controversy because of what Dave said to the one Oline. I forget the circumstances but it didnt go over well. With all the politically crap out there, I think Ballard and Reich thought they had to make a move. I hated it

I'm really not buying that story though. Just doesn't make sense. If that truly happened, I don't think we would have cut him. IMO, he simply lost his job to a better player (Braden Smith)... 

[EastStreet]

17 minutes ago, Sumo63 said:

I dont understand getting rid of an unmitigated success to bring in "your guy".   Just make the dude that made our O line the nastiest in league THE guy.

 

Our Oline is running on reputation this year.  They arent the dominant force they're made out to be.  Pass pro has improved, credit where it's due, but "run the damn ball" is just a slogan now.  Comparable to "build the monster" or "chopping wood" (imo).

Pass Pro really hasn't improved. Haven't looked at PFF lately, but FO shows us at #7, and that's where we were last year. Given the sharp drop in PFF individual ratings, I'm guessing their rank has dropped too. Can't be only the run blocking grades that drug them down so much.

[Moosejawcolt]

8 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

I don't think Guge is with Miami this year. I know he was there in 2019, but isn't Marshall their OL coach now?

U could b right....i will have to check

 

[Boondoggle]

In answer to the OP's question...  The starting QB has a lot of impact on play action.  It's one of those things that looks a lot easier than it is in fact.  You gotta put practice and reps into control of your upper half so the LBs and safeties see the same motion whether it's a fake or a handoff.  So when you have a vet QB who doesn't do that, you're gonna have tells all over the place not to mention increased risk of fumbles.  Thus the answer is when it's a vet who isn't a smooth play action type you gotta take that as is.

 

And btw that upper half thing applies to RBs too.  You'll notice the good offenses coach their RBs to keep their shoulders square to the line as they approach it even if they want to bounce it out.  Why?  Because that freezes the off ball backers and safeties.  When the RB has his shoulders slanted or perpendicular to the LOS it telegraphs where he's going and makes it hard for the OL to get in their way second level.

 

And lastly to run play action effectively of course you need a strong run game.  The Colts could actually do a fake once in a while to great effect since it's not something defenses are taught to key on in preps.  But to really suck those LBs up and create space they have to be afraid of your run game.  And the run game is the area where the Colts offense needs to improve most, which is why I think Taylor will be a big impact to this offense once he gets up to speed and is playing fast in this scheme.

[NewColtsFan]

1 hour ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Yup.  If this Oline doesnt get going and finishes the season low in the rankings then the O line coach needs to b gone. I was not a big fan of when Mudd came in for a couple of weeks and suppossedly passed the torch to the current Oline coach. I think this Oline plays better when the scheming takes advantage of their nastiness. I think Smith and especially Nelson thrive in a system that makes them play mean. I think the new system has taken that away some what and now they may have lost that edge. I loved the previous Oline coach that got fired . By the way who the hell is Strausser and after 2 years, I am ready to move on. I think Reich is being to loyal. This Oline has to many assets invested to be playing this poorly in the run game. Could you imagine if the Dline had 3 1st rounders and a high 2nd rounder and were  #1 in rushing  the passer but last in stopping the run or vise versa?  We would want changes. I just wish the media would ask Reich directly in his news conference what needs to happen to improve the Olines performance. People talk about Reichs play calling and at  times being dissatisfied with his plays. I am way more dissatisfied with his inability to hold some one accountable for the Olines performance. If they fail against the Packers, who are horrible against the run, then both Ballard and Reich need to be held accountable. This team is going no where in the play offs, if they make it, with the statue of liberty(Rivers) and an Oline who cannot get any push against good defensive teams. They will just tee off on Rivers.

Hiw in the world do you even know who Reich holds accountable?    Maybe Strausser us in the hot seat?   Do you think you’d know right now if that were true?   You wouldn’t.

 

If the line doesn’t get better, we will see what happens at the end of the year.   THEN we will have a better idea about accountability.  You won’t know about it in the middle of the season. 

[GoColts8818]

12 hours ago, Zoltan said:

I was reading the Mailbag and Walker mentioned not doing play-action because River's isn't a play-action QB. So with that in mind and River's obviously not liking to do QB sneaks to the point that they put in Jacoby to run the play even though that increases the risk of a center-QB fumbled exchange.

How much power does Rivers have on the offense and what plays we run?

 

Obviously he has some input, but I was surprised to see that we just don't run certain plays because he isn't a fan of them

Remember Jacoby has started a lot of games with Ryan Kelly.  I don’t think there is that much more of risk with fumbled exchange when he comes in.  In fact you could argue it’s higher with Rivers because he’s had far fewer snaps with Kelly.  Either way it’s not something I think the Colts are or should be worried about in that situation.

[GoColts8818]

22 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

Hiw in the world do you even know who Reich holds accountable?    Maybe Strausser us in the hot seat?   Do you think you’d know right now if that were true?   You wouldn’t.

 

If the line doesn’t get better, we will see what happens at the end of the year.   THEN we will have a better idea about accountability.  You won’t know about it in the middle of the season. 

People who say this don’t.  They just want to see the coach yell at players because that’s what they want to do.  In reality that doesn’t work very well.  I keep going back to what Mathis said about it with Dungy.  He said something along the line of you have to remember these are grown men trying to do their job and they don’t respond well to being yelled at by another man.  Like I said before think about your job.  Do you respond better to a boss that yells and screams at you and belittles you when you make a mistake or do you respond better when your boss shows you respect and has a conversation about it and gives you suggestions for what you can do better next time but still getting the point across that mistake can’t continue to happen?