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Do Colts want to be KC or Minnesota (Merge)


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23 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Well considering Reid has been calling offensive plays since 1999 and Reich has been calling offensive plays since 2018  I guess it might make a difference?

Plus I would think Frank's play calling would be different if he had the talent level of Reid? 

Reich called plays starting in 2014 (not 2018) for the Chargers. He was fired after two years because the team struggled on O, and had the worst balance in the NFL. Interestingly enough, when Reich was in Philly as OC, Pederson (who is somewhat from the Reid coaching tree) called plays.

 

Sure Reid has more experience, but he was an instant star. He turned the Eagles around quickly and was even made coach+GM after two years. It's more about scheme though, and less about experience.

 

Will Reich improve with time, or with a different QB, IDK. I hope so.

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It's fun to have these conversations but the fact of the matter remains is that what happens this year will determine next year.  Rivers is in the drivers seat here.  If he has a good year and makes the playoffs the job is his if he WANTS to play another year.    If so Eason is the backup and we will do everything in the offseason to strengthen the team for a SB run.  Ballard will not move on from Eason without seeing how he performs.  If Rivers falters or does not want to return then we are in a different position.  Then the door is open to acquire another veteran QB to compete with Eason.  Eason will be ready to compete by then and he could very well win the job.  If a veteran is brought in I don't see us bringing in an expensive player.  Someone more like Darnold is more likely versus a Rogers IMO.  We shall see but I think Eason will be given very opportunity to be our QB.  I don't see Ballard steering away from that plan.  

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Forgive me if this has already been discussed. 

 

Colin Cowherd recently compared the Colts to the Chiefs when they had Alex Smith.  Basically said the Colts (like those Chiefs) were a very good team with a decent QB.  But not good enough to go all the way.

 

The Chiefs made it to the next elite level when they traded up for Mahomes.  

 

Can/would the Colts do the same?  It would take an enormous amount of draft capital to get Lawrence or Fields.  But IMO, either of those would put us in the mix for years to come.  In this NFL, you have to have a mobile QB. 

 

I would not be upset if we went all in, give up two firsts and two seconds, and even more.  

 

I doubt Ballard would do it though, he loves those draft picks.  And maybe they really think Eason is the answer. 

 

 

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On 11/13/2020 at 9:33 PM, Chloe6124 said:

What’s stupid. He is right. We really are just missing the Qb to take us to the next level.

Yeah, and we were they until that dreadful night back in August 2019.. Lol sooo it's not really the Colts fault, we're "stuck" with a great roster and lots of questions around the QB. NOBODYS fault. Not Jim, Chris, and Frank. 

 

But yes. hopefully we can find about 1st in a generation type QB. But we had 2 for 2 decades. our Luck might be out... again :thmup:

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  • w87r changed the title to Do Colts want to be KC or Minnesota (Merge)
On 11/13/2020 at 3:59 PM, danlhart87 said:

I'm kinda hoping if Rivers retires the Packers get bounced early and the GM says its Love time making Rodgers available. 

 

That sounds so freaking hilarious the way I said it but you know what I mean 

 

Problem is that Rodgers would have his pick of a lot of different teams.  Do we have a favorite coach of his from the past that might make Indy more attractive.

 

To be fair we can promise a good team around him. So that's a point in our favor, I'm just not sure we would be the only team in the market who could promise that.  

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4 minutes ago, Valpo2004 said:

 

Problem is that Rodgers would have his pick of a lot of different teams.  Do we have a favorite coach of his from the past that might make Indy more attractive.

 

To be fair we can promise a good team around him. So that's a point in our favor, I'm just not sure we would be the only team in the market who could promise that.  

 

I'd love to have Rodgers, but I'd also love to have a guy that we know will be around for 10 years or more.  

 

It's a gamble, for sure, but I'd be all for selling out to get Lawrence or Fields.  But if the Jets and Jags are drafting 1 and 2, neither are giving up their pick.  

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I think this angle is overly simplistic.

 

1) The Colts didn't commit multiple years to Rivers. Comparing them to the Vikings is a miss, off the bat.

 

2) The Chiefs scouted, and identified a player that they thought could be a foundational QB. Then they pulled off a draft day trade for him, moving up 17 picks in the first round for him, and got him at #10. He was the second QB taken that year. They developed him patiently, and then -- and here's the biggest part, which is kind of the only thing that matters -- he actually become a great QB. 

 

The Chiefs needed a dozen specific things to go their way. They had to find the right guy, they needed Mahomes to drop to where they were in range to take him, they needed a willing trade partner, and they needed to coach him up the right way. It also cannot be overstated how critical having Alex Smith was to the developmental plan for Mahomes (for all you 'just play him asap' people). 

 

I'm just saying, every team would like to do it like the Chiefs did. But you're ignoring the fact that Mahomes is a generational talent (seriously, maybe the most talented QB ever, all things considered). You're ignoring the Chiefs good fortune on the way to acquiring him, and you're ignoring their deliberate developmental plan in deploying him. 

 

In fact, having a good veteran QB as the starter is one of the critical components of the Chiefs' strategy. We have that piece in place.

 

Not pulling off the Chiefs/Mahomes strategy doesn't make a team the Minnesota Vikings. There's a wide chasm between those two teams, with a hundred options in between them. 

 

This fanbase is also weirdly obsessed with the QB position, especially since it's November and the draft is five months away.

 

Last thing, Trevor Lawrence, Justin Fields, Trey Lance, or whoever else is going to be hyped from next year's draft class... none of them will be as good as Patrick Mahomes. I'd bet anything on that.

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On 11/13/2020 at 3:31 PM, Chloe6124 said:

If they feel they want Jacoby for a backup to a young QB they might want to hang  on to him. I don’t think he is going to have much interest. 

If they think Eason is the future, then he needs more opportunities in practice.   He won’t get enough as the third string.   If Jacoby is back, he’d be the backup leaving Eason as the third string.   It’s possible, but a real long shot. 


Odds are we let JB go be the backup for some other team.  That would lift Eason to be the backup for Rivers next year.  He needs to graduate to a higher level, not stay st third string for another season. 

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1 hour ago, Superman said:

I think this angle is overly simplistic.

 

1) The Colts didn't commit multiple years to Rivers. Comparing them to the Vikings is a miss, off the bat.

 

2) The Chiefs scouted, and identified a player that they thought could be a foundational QB. Then they pulled off a draft day trade for him, moving up 17 picks in the first round for him, and got him at #10. He was the second QB taken that year. They developed him patiently, and then -- and here's the biggest part, which is kind of the only thing that matters -- he actually become a great QB. 

Yes, the Colts could trade up in the first round and become like the Bears, not the Chiefs. As many here will recall, the Bears traded the Nos. 3, 67 and 111 picks, as well as a 2018 third-round pick, to the San Francisco 49ers in exchange for the second overall pick to draft Mitchell Trubisky. 

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1 hour ago, Superman said:

They developed him patiently, and then -- and here's the biggest part, which is kind of the only thing that matters -- he actually become a great QB. 

Spot on. and the real question is....if that reach that the team makes doesn't pay off.....what is the realistic result...and how long does it take to fix.

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13 minutes ago, Four2itus said:

Spot on. and the real question is....if that reach that the team makes doesn't pay off.....what is the realistic result...and how long does it take to fix.

 

As Bean says above, just keep watching the Bears and we'll have an answer.

 

You could also watch the Texans and get an idea of what happens when you get a pretty good QB but still don't win anything. 

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On 11/14/2020 at 12:47 AM, Jared Cisneros said:

Maybe we trade for Darnold on the cheap (getting tired of bringing that up, but it still applies for a little longer as the Jets are winless). 

Yep. He might come pretty cheap. I have no idea why anybody would trade for him, though. 

 

Quote

 

Sam Darnold‘s brutal production to begin the 2020 season mirrors some of the most disappointing quarterbacks in Jets franchise history. I'm a huge proponent of avoiding an overreliance on box score stats to evaluate how well a player is performing. Standard statistics are severely lacking in context.

 

That’s why I do my own grading of Sam Darnold’s performance each week – to mix in that essential context.With that said, Darnold’s raw statistical production here in 2020 stands out from the crowd so blatantly that it has to be taken into account. It has not just been disappointing, shaky, or mediocre. It has been downright atrocious. The most important factor at play is that we can trust the value of Darnold’s raw numbers since the Darnold that shows up on film looks just as bad as the Darnold on the league-wide statistical leaderboards. 

 

https://jetsxfactor.com/2020/10/26/new-york-jets-qb-sam-darnold-is-producing-at-a-historically-awful-level/

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"Yep. He might come pretty cheap. I have no idea why anybody would trade for him, though. "

 

 

Darnold has the worst team in football surrounding him. Mahomes couldn't win in a Jets uniform with this team around him. I wasn't a huge fan of Darnold when they drafted him but I have seen considerable ability. Given a good coach, an adequate offensive line and some decent receivers I think he could be a decent QB in this league. Will he ever be a Mahomes equal, no. Right now Mahomes is in a class all by himself. In a much better environment I believe Darnold can win in this league. I would be very happy if the Colts acquired him but with Eason in the background I doubt they would do that unless they strongly feel Eason is not the answer.

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2 hours ago, hoosierhawk said:

 

"Yep. He might come pretty cheap. I have no idea why anybody would trade for him, though. "

 

 

Darnold has the worst team in football surrounding him. Mahomes couldn't win in a Jets uniform with this team around him. I wasn't a huge fan of Darnold when they drafted him but I have seen considerable ability. Given a good coach, an adequate offensive line and some decent receivers I think he could be a decent QB in this league. Will he ever be a Mahomes equal, no. Right now Mahomes is in a class all by himself. In a much better environment I believe Darnold can win in this league. I would be very happy if the Colts acquired him but with Eason in the background I doubt they would do that unless they strongly feel Eason is not the answer.

I think this is a balanced offseason article about Darnold after the Jets had a 7-9 record last year, but Darnold struggled behind a bad offensive line. It points to some continued hope for this future, but also some serious questions heading into this season, which has been a disaster for him and the Jets so far. https://nypost.com/2020/08/05/sam-darnolds-future-nfl-experts-give-jets-qb-mixed-reviews/

 

Too much inconsistency

Nearly everyone who evaluates Darnold agrees he is maddeningly inconsistent. Some will chalk that up to him still being a young player. He is younger than Joe Burrow, who just got drafted No. 1 by the Bengals. Others see it as a part of his game he may never fix.

“When you compare him to the rest of the league, he’s been below average,” Pro Football Focus senior analyst Steve Palazzolo said. “I think our numbers show that. I think the interesting part of his entire career, even at USC, is he really has small spurts of really good play and then spurts of horrendous play.”

That was never more evident than last year when Darnold returned from his three-game absence due to mono and led the Jets to a win over the Cowboys, a game in which he made some magnificent throws. The following week, the Patriots destroyed him and he was caught saying he was “seeing ghosts” on a microphone he was wearing. He looked like a completely different quarterback from one week to the next.

But if you looked closely at the Cowboys game and not just at the result, you would see Darnold got away with some bad mechanics. His feet were not often in the right position, but he still completed the throw. He could not get away with as much the following week against the Patriots.

Greg Cosell, who breaks down film on ESPN’s “NFL Matchup” show, studied six of Darnold’s games from last season, including the Cowboys and Patriots games.

“What makes Darnold a hard and frustrating evaluation is that he can make high-level throws without proper lower-body mechanics,” Cosell said. “That’s a knack that he has, but as a coach you do not want to accept poor mechanics.”

It is a tricky thing for Gase and quarterbacks coach Dowell Loggains. Darnold has the ability to make throws off of a “bad platform,” in football-speak. That can be a good thing. But it also can result in bad habits. The Jets must walk the line of trying to improve Darnold’s mechanics without taking things out of his game that make him special.

“Darnold’s lack of consistent footwork and balance in the pocket have been the same since I evaluated him coming out of USC,” Cosell said. “It may be one of those things that you have to live with and work within that framework.”

The Patriots confused Darnold with a heavy dose of “Cover Zero” blitzes when they did not have a safety in the middle of the field and brought six or more pass rushers. It left Darnold flummoxed.

“Darnold natural tendency to play a little fast and a little frenetic really hurt him versus Patriots zero blitz,” Cosell said. “Darnold at times did not recognize quick throws that were there.”

At times Darnold does not look like he knows what he is looking at from a defense. That is an area where Gase must work with him to improve entering this season.

“My sense watching these six games was that Darnold must develop a better feel for what he is seeing, both pre-snap and post-snap,” Cosell said. “That comes with coaching and experience.”

The numbers

The analytics community is not kind to Darnold. PFF rated him as the 31st best passer last year. He holds onto the ball too long and struggles under pressure, according to the metrics. He has not fared much better in traditional statistics. He was 27th in QB rating last year and 25th in ESPN’s QBR.

“I would say the concerning part for Darnold is in the stable metrics,” Palazzolo said. “Clean pocket, early downs, not using play-action, throwing the ball beyond the sticks, avoiding negatively graded throws, he is well into the bottom half of the league.”

Palazzolo also pointed to deep-ball accuracy as an issue for Darnold. That is something Darnold has said he worked to improve this offseason. He struggled in the red zone, as well, last year, throwing four red-zone interceptions, tied for the most in the league.

Even though the statistics may paint a bleak picture, Palazolo said they may not tell the whole story.

“I think this is a pivotal year,” he said. “I think we’ll come out of this season and he might not take a statistical jump, but I think he can take a jump from an on-field play standpoint. I think Jets fans would want to look at it through that lens. There’s a chance we come out of this season and say, ‘Sam Darnold took a big step forward. His PFF grade went up and throw for throw he was better. It just didn’t show up in the stats.’ ”

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I feel like i am taking crazy pills..... He goes on about taking that risk to be the next KC Chiefs and draft that next Mahomes type player and go for it because these older good quarterbacks are past it.... But then immediately 180s his argument and starts saying the old guard are still the best.... even saying "Mahomes isnt going to be the next Brady". He even  says Brady, Brees and Roethlesberger are still getting it done and winning.

Pick an argument and stick to it.

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On 11/16/2020 at 3:38 PM, Superman said:

I think this angle is overly simplistic.

 

1) The Colts didn't commit multiple years to Rivers. Comparing them to the Vikings is a miss, off the bat.

 

2) The Chiefs scouted, and identified a player that they thought could be a foundational QB. Then they pulled off a draft day trade for him, moving up 17 picks in the first round for him, and got him at #10. He was the second QB taken that year. They developed him patiently, and then -- and here's the biggest part, which is kind of the only thing that matters -- he actually become a great QB. 

 

The Chiefs needed a dozen specific things to go their way. They had to find the right guy, they needed Mahomes to drop to where they were in range to take him, they needed a willing trade partner, and they needed to coach him up the right way. It also cannot be overstated how critical having Alex Smith was to the developmental plan for Mahomes (for all you 'just play him asap' people). 

 

I'm just saying, every team would like to do it like the Chiefs did. But you're ignoring the fact that Mahomes is a generational talent (seriously, maybe the most talented QB ever, all things considered). You're ignoring the Chiefs good fortune on the way to acquiring him, and you're ignoring their deliberate developmental plan in deploying him. 

 

In fact, having a good veteran QB as the starter is one of the critical components of the Chiefs' strategy. We have that piece in place.

 

Not pulling off the Chiefs/Mahomes strategy doesn't make a team the Minnesota Vikings. There's a wide chasm between those two teams, with a hundred options in between them. 

 

This fanbase is also weirdly obsessed with the QB position, especially since it's November and the draft is five months away.

 

Last thing, Trevor Lawrence, Justin Fields, Trey Lance, or whoever else is going to be hyped from next year's draft class... none of them will be as good as Patrick Mahomes. I'd bet anything on that.

 

Thing is that the Chiefs didn't know that Mahomes was going to be a generational talent when they drafted him.  

 

There is a point though that remains that if the GM finds a guy who they could potentially reach that they have to be willing to take the risk to get him.  

 

That said I'm not as concerned about that.  Ballard seemed risk averse for the first few years, but that's while he was building a team.  Then last year he sent out a first rounder and big money to get Buckner.   So it seems to me that Ballard is willing and able to take risks if the timing is right.  

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3 minutes ago, Valpo2004 said:

 

Thing is that the Chiefs didn't know that Mahomes was going to be a generational talent when they drafted him.  

 

There is a point though that remains that if the GM finds a guy who they could potentially reach that they have to be willing to take the risk to get him.  

 

That said I'm not as concerned about that.  Ballard seemed risk averse for the first few years, but that's while he was building a team.  Then last year he sent out a first rounder and big money to get Buckner.   So it seems to me that Ballard is willing and able to take risks if the timing is right.  

 

He telegraphed it, too. Ballard is pretty transparent about a lot of this stuff.

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What you guys think about Carson Wentz ??

Do you think he may be available? 

The Eagles are a mess. I think maybe they made Wentz a mess. 

I seen him play some this season and he definitely has talent in that arm.

 

If the Eagles feel like they need a rebuild, maybe they dump Wentz and his contract and go with Jalen Hurts.

It's worth kicking the tires.

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22 minutes ago, LJpalmbeacher2 said:

What you guys think about Carson Wentz ??

Do you think he may be available? 

The Eagles are a mess. I think maybe they made Wentz a mess. 

I seen him play some this season and he definitely has talent in that arm.

 

If the Eagles feel like they need a rebuild, maybe they dump Wentz and his contract and go with Jalen Hurts.

It's worth kicking the tires.

 

If Carson Wentz comes available, I'd take him without batting an eye.

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38 minutes ago, Valpo2004 said:

Thing is that the Chiefs didn't know that Mahomes was going to be a generational talent when they drafted him.  

 

 

One more thing on this: that's why scouting honestly is important. Once draft season hits, all these superlatives start getting thrown around. Guys are 'the best prospect since X,' or 'future HOF talent,' or 'no-brainer, can't miss' prospects. All of that is too much. 

 

In reality, even top rated draft prospects fail to live up to their pre-draft hype at a considerable rate. All the exaggeration is just a way for people to talk themselves into their favorite guys. 

 

I think a good front office makes sure to avoid talking themselves into believing this kind of hype. I think the Chiefs really liked and believed in Mahomes, but I'm pretty sure everyone involved in that operation would admit that they weren't expecting him to explode onto the scene the way he did.

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On 11/14/2020 at 12:53 AM, EastStreet said:

Reich called plays starting in 2014 (not 2018) for the Chargers. He was fired after two years because the team struggled on O, and had the worst balance in the NFL. Interestingly enough, when Reich was in Philly as OC, Pederson (who is somewhat from the Reid coaching tree) called plays.

 

Sure Reid has more experience, but he was an instant star. He turned the Eagles around quickly and was even made coach+GM after two years. It's more about scheme though, and less about experience.

 

Will Reich improve with time, or with a different QB, IDK. I hope so.

Interesting that you bring up the Eagles because it seemed like the year Reich left they dipped considerably in the quality of their gameplanning and player execution.  Meanwhile the opposite effect was seen with Indy.  Of course I have not looked deeper at the Eagles and their issues that next year may have largely been personnel, but I do recall noting that difference.

 

I'm not sure Reich is the guy to build around as a head coach.  But I also sort of doubt myself on that at times too since he's done a good job so far with the Colts.  He certainly knows what he's doing on offense and maybe I'm being unfair to him it's just that something about him rubs me the wrong way.  Like he's too placid or something idk.

 

So I look at him similarly to your take above, where I am hopeful but still keep an eye on the coordinators who are making noise around the league.  And the nice thing with the way the Colts are structured is having that classic GM means you should have strong decision making wrt the head coach position which I think is a very nice spot to be in.

 

I feel like this season is going to be very important in his evaluation of Reich.  If he can't get them deep into the playoffs (i.e. if they get bounced first round) I wouldn't rule out a change.

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1 minute ago, Boondoggle said:

Interesting that you bring up the Eagles because it seemed like the year Reich left they dipped considerably in the quality of their gameplanning and player execution.  Meanwhile the opposite effect was seen with Indy.  Of course I have not looked deeper at the Eagles and their issues that next year may have largely been personnel, but I do recall noting that difference.

 

I'm not sure Reich is the guy to build around as a head coach.  But I also sort of doubt myself on that at times too since he's done a good job so far with the Colts.  He certainly knows what he's doing on offense and maybe I'm being unfair to him it's just that something about him rubs me the wrong way.  Like he's too placid or something idk.

 

So I look at him similarly to your take above, where I am hopeful but still keep an eye on the coordinators who are making noise around the league.  And the nice thing with the way the Colts are structured is having that classic GM means you should have strong decision making wrt the head coach position which I think is a very nice spot to be in.

 

I feel like this season is going to be very important in his evaluation of Reich.  If he can't get them deep into the playoffs (i.e. if they get bounced first round) I wouldn't rule out a change.

The Eagles had all kinds of issues that coincided with Reich leaving, so hard to say one way or the other. 

Pederson came up the GP and called the plays, but I'm sure Reich participated in all of that too. 

I think Reich is probably a good people manager, just not sure about the game planning and play calling aspects. 

I do agree on the placid comment. 

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I'm in the school of thought that a lot of QBs that come into the league have the necessary tools to succeed, but they're placed within the wrong organization, coaching staff and or scheme. 

 

Patrick Mahomes is ridiculously talented, but he also came into a playoff ready team with a legendary coach and a talented starting QB to sit under and learn from. @Superman talked about how so many things had to go right, and I agree. It was a perfect storm, and they took a chance. Then, they tailored their scheme to fit his strengths. Had Alex Smith not been there to give the team success early on, would the situation be different. 

 

It seems so deceptively simply, but I suppose egos often get in the way, with the whole "it's my way or the highway, I need to assert my dominance and leadership" mantra. Too many QBs get wasted because of the inability to assess and then realize their strengths and weaknesses, and a need for instant success. 

 

Hardly anyone is patient enough to allow a QB to learn and grow. 

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55 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

No Carson wentz. He is scarred  and way to injury prone. I don’t want another Reich guy where he can’t admit when the player fails. He gets way to wrapped up in guys he loves. It’s time to at least try to find the future. 

 

Like who?

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45 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Like who?

Like when rivers lost us the browns game and he goes rivers played good football. Or the Adam V situation. We need a clean slate with nobody attached to Reich’s past. I want us to find our future. One we brought up and developed. Not somebody else’s left overs or someone who is injured all the time. 

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1 hour ago, Chloe6124 said:

Like when rivers lost us the browns game and he goes rivers played good football. Or the Adam V situation. We need a clean slate with nobody attached to Reich’s past. I want us to find our future. One we brought up and developed. Not somebody else’s left overs or someone who is injured all the time. 

 

Quite a stretch. Was he supposed to publicly flog Rivers? 

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9 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Quite a stretch. Was he supposed to publicly flog Rivers? 

I never said that. What’s so hard to say we have to get better QB play. Rivers knew he stunk and would of agreed with it. Instead he goes Rivers played good football then had to apologize for those comments the next day.  

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21 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

I never said that. What’s so hard to say we have to get better QB play. Rivers knew he stunk and would of agreed with it. Instead he goes Rivers played good football then had to apologize for those comments the next day.  

 

None of this is consequential. Has no bearing on how the team plays.

 

Despite Rivers having a bad game, and regardless what Reich said about it, Rivers wasn't going to be benched. So why should anyone care what Reich says in a presser the next day?

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27 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

I never said that. What’s so hard to say we have to get better QB play. Rivers knew he stunk and would of agreed with it. Instead he goes Rivers played good football then had to apologize for those comments the next day.  

It’s leadership 101. You praise in public, criticize in private. 
 

This is the way. 
I Have Spoken GIF by IMDb

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