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Another Rough Outing for Ya Sin ((MERGE))


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You folks called me crazy when I said I was out on him. Now you see why. Another game, another penalty and gave up a play or two. I think it’s time to hit the panic button. TJ Carrie looks better. 
 

I want him to be good but the guy just gets too grabby and then can’t seem to close on the ball. He plays off and then can’t get back to his man to cause the break up and then gives up extra YAC. He’s easily the worst starter in the secondary, and possibly on the defense as a whole.

 

Not trying to pick on the kid but let’s call a spade a spade. He was a fairly high draft pick too. Hardest position to learn to play after QB or not, I just can’t see him making some big leap. Plus we’ve been down this road before I feel. 

 

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Are you out on Moore too? His coverage (passer rating allowed) is worst on the team. He allows the most YAC on the team. He also leads the team in missed tackles.    Rock played at a very hi

So you think Ya Sin (in his 2nd year) is having a rough go of it huh?    You may want to cut the young man some slack. The kid plays hard every snap. Tackles well and intercepts a few p

You folks called me crazy when I said I was out on him. Now you see why. Another game, another penalty and gave up a play or two. I think it’s time to hit the panic button. TJ Carrie looks better. 

3 minutes ago, Defjamz26 said:

You folks called me crazy when I said I was out on him. Now you see why. Another game, another penalty and gave up a play or two. I think it’s time to hit the panic button. TJ Carrie looks better. 
 

I want him to be good but the guy just gets too grabby and then can’t seem to close on the ball. He plays off and then can’t get back to his man to cause the break up and then gives up extra YAC. He’s easily the worst starter in the secondary, and possibly on the defense as a whole.

 

Not trying to pick on the kid but let’s call a spade a spade. He was a fairly high draft pick too. Hardest position to learn to play after QB or not, I just can’t see him making some big leap. Plus we’ve been down this road before I feel. 

Are you out on Moore too? His coverage (passer rating allowed) is worst on the team. He allows the most YAC on the team. He also leads the team in missed tackles. 

 

Rock played at a very high level the later half of 2019. So high, he was in the top 10 in PFF grading the last 8 games. This year, he's playing more zone and more rip/liz (which is a lot more handoffs). Given he comes from a man D scheme in college, it's not surprising he's grabby sometimes (ever watch the Big10?), and will need time to adjust to the handoffs. He's also been gimpy, and has been moved around between CB1 and 2 (which have different hand off responsibilities).

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47 minutes ago, Solon said:

He's not playing with confidence. He could've jumped a few of these routes if he would've been decisive. Someone needs to get in his ear and tell him to trust his eyes. 

It's weird too, because he HAS played with confidence a few games, 2nd or 3rd one this year, and looked great.   I feel he has the physical tools,  but something mental is prohibiting him at the moment.   I hope he bounces back!

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When corners struggle there's different reasons for it.  The good thing here is grabbing is coachable.  I mean it could be worse right?  He could be routinely beaten due to speed.

 

I do think smart teams are putting a premium on coverage corners who can stay on a wideout without being so handsy.  But hands are ok as long as you aren't pulling jersey like he did on that play.  His positioning was actually good just poor technique.

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20 minutes ago, compuls1v3 said:

It's weird too, because he HAS played with confidence a few games, 2nd or 3rd one this year, and looked great.   I feel he has the physical tools,  but something mental is prohibiting him at the moment.   I hope he bounces back!

Yep. It was before he went out for whatever "procedure" he had. We really have no idea (at least I don't) what happened, how serious, and the impact. I'm just guessing, but sounded it was internal surgery like an appendectomy or something. That's 2-4 weeks recovery, and you're still 100%. And if it burst, that's even worse. And the 2-4 weeks is just for normal life, not playing defense in the NFL.

17 minutes ago, Boondoggle said:

When corners struggle there's different reasons for it.  The good thing here is grabbing is coachable.  I mean it could be worse right?  He could be routinely beaten due to speed.

 

I do think smart teams are putting a premium on coverage corners who can stay on a wideout without being so handsy.  But hands are ok as long as you aren't pulling jersey like he did on that play.  His positioning was actually good just poor technique.

He was grabby 1st half of last year. He got over it then, so I have high hopes this year too. I suspect it's something to do with the above.

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He'll be fine.  He's had some good games and some where he struggled.  He's still just a pup in the grand scheme.  I still shake my head when people are dismayed that some 1st and 2nd year guys struggle and they think they are washed up already.  Good thing the Colts didn't give up on Reggie or Mack.  Year 3 was when they really started coming out.

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Maybe its just me and everytime I look at the screen. I dont really care about the advanced stats sometimes, like this. But everytime I see him thrown at, theres a good 2 yards of separation. The odd time if hes body on body, he still never seems to makes plays on the ball.

 

I feel long term it may be a better fit for him to play slot.

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1 minute ago, NorthernColt said:

Maybe its just me and everytime I look at the screen. I dont really care about the advanced stats sometimes, like this. But everytime I see him thrown at, theres a good 2 yards of separation. The odd time if hes body on body, he still never seems to makes plays on the ball.

 

I feel long term it may be a better fit for him to play slot.

I like rock but I think you are right here.  He’s very physical.  But Moore’s got that spot wrapped up.

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28 minutes ago, Valpo2004 said:

What is the passer rating against Rock in coverage?

The I'm looking at has it at 91.9% and a 70% catch rate. Also PFF has him at 46.9 overall grade. Carrie is at a 77

 

But stats aside my point is that he’s way too grabby and doesn’t seem to be making any plays on the ball. He’s not a good player currently. Tough and physical =/= good. I think people here are more in love with the idea of Ya-sin than anything else. Turn on the game tape and tell me he’s not the weak link in the secondary. Moore is having a down year but we know he’s had great years.

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The hold in the end zone wasn't good but as previous posters have said it can sometimes take 2-3 years to develop a player.

 

He's played well at times and gets burned at times as any cb does, so we're just hoping for more consistency 

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I’m not hitting the panic button yet and probably won’t for a while because it takes time with cornerbacks. What if the Bears would’ve hit the panic button after Kyle Fuller’s second season? He wouldn’t be a bear right now. He’s a pretty dang good cornerback at the moment, but he had a rough start. It just takes time. 

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1 hour ago, PrNum1 said:

The hold in the end zone wasn't good but as previous posters have said it can sometimes take 2-3 years to develop a player.

 

He's played well at times and gets burned at times as any cb does, so we're just hoping for more consistency 

Normally yes. But imo, my problem is I'm not even seeing the traits. Even when there's incompletions to his receiver. So his passer rating at times might look like hes playing well. But often times, whenever I see it, its from a drop or an arrant through. 

 

Rarely see him making mistakes like taking risks making plays on the ball etc. Soft coverage, and no ball playing ability, mixed in with still being to grabby, scares me personally.

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2 hours ago, NorthernColt said:

Normally yes. But imo, my problem is I'm not even seeing the traits. Even when there's incompletions to his receiver. So his passer rating at times might look like hes playing well. But often times, whenever I see it, its from a drop or an arrant through. 

 

Rarely see him making mistakes like taking risks making plays on the ball etc. Soft coverage, and no ball playing ability, mixed in with still being to grabby, scares me personally.

Precisely my point. He looks like what he’s showing is who he is. He’s a guy that’s going to always be good for 3-5 PI’s a game and give up a bunch of completions. What is it that everyone else is actually seeing that has people so encouraged? Not the PFF grades or the notion that it takes young corners awhile to develop sometimes, but what are people seeing when they watch? 
 

Only thing I ever here is “Yeah he’s always right there and close to making a play”. That’s Quincy Wilson type stuff. People rode his hype until Ballard finally traded him.

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All I can say is how many teams can say they limited a healthy A J Brown and Corey Davis together to under 100 yards receiving? RYS seems to be close to the pass which is the positive part and the difference between making a play and not is a split second decision at the CB position, I am confident we have the coaches to make him learn.

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Gotta keep in mind too part of it is scheme. Zone coverage will tend to give up the curl and short out routes. Is getting torched regularly on deep routes? I don’t think so. He’s naturally more of a press man type CB; wins more with physicality than finesse. Play hasn’t been elite but serviceable.
 

I do agree we still need to invest more draft capital in young, talented DBs. Ballard hit on one in Blackmon. 

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19 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

Precisely my point. He looks like what he’s showing is who he is. He’s a guy that’s going to always be good for 3-5 PI’s a game and give up a bunch of completions. What is it that everyone else is actually seeing that has people so encouraged? Not the PFF grades or the notion that it takes young corners awhile to develop sometimes, but what are people seeing when they watch? 
 

Only thing I ever here is “Yeah he’s always right there and close to making a play”. That’s Quincy Wilson type stuff. People rode his hype until Ballard finally traded him.

Definitely meant 3-5 PIs a season lol.

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22 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

Precisely my point. He looks like what he’s showing is who he is. He’s a guy that’s going to always be good for 3-5 PI’s a game and give up a bunch of completions. What is it that everyone else is actually seeing that has people so encouraged? Not the PFF grades or the notion that it takes young corners awhile to develop sometimes, but what are people seeing when they watch? 
 

Only thing I ever here is “Yeah he’s always right there and close to making a play”. That’s Quincy Wilson type stuff. People rode his hype until Ballard finally traded him.


I agree with you about Rock. He’s still got time...but he’s trending in the wrong direction. We aren’t the only ones that see it...look at his PFF rating. 
 

He doesn’t seem to have the ball skills we hoped for...hence always being a split second too late...and the lack of INTs.
 

Also...I would be willing to bet that the grabbing happens all the time...it’s just a matter of them calling or not. If they truly enforced it on him...I think it would be really bad. Maybe they can coach it out of him.

 

The other concern is missed tackles...he has been missing at a higher clip than his rookie season.

 

Hot take: If Tell had not opted out...I think he would have taken Rock’s spot by now.

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We don't really have any poor players on defense.  Even most of our backups are solid.  Rock's fine, he may not be top tier this year but he's far from a liability most of the time.

 

Give me this defense every year and I'll be happy as a clam.

 

Don't forget Marvell Tell will probably be back next year, he was a solid player too.

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Im still in on Rock. Its clear to me he isn't a bad player hes just gotta clean up his hands. Other than that he's a very tough physical player. 

 

Now, if he was losing us games then I'd be with you but he isnt doing that. You just want every player to be great which is unrealistic. 

 

Also, Kenny Moore wasn't always great. It took him a few years to develop those instincts. You think the Patriots would have let him walk if he already possessed those instincts? Hahahaha!

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1 hour ago, NannyMcafee said:

Im still in on Rock. Its clear to me he isn't a bad player hes just gotta clean up his hands. Other than that he's a very tough physical player. 

 

Now, if he was losing us games then I'd be with you but he isnt doing that. You just want every player to be great which is unrealistic. 

 

Also, Kenny Moore wasn't always great. It took him a few years to develop those instincts. You think the Patriots would have let him walk if he already possessed those instincts? Hahahaha!


It didn’t take Kenny a few years. He broke out in his 2nd season...and then Ballard extended him. 
 

Kenny had a 71 PFF grade in his 2nd season...Rock is at 45.9.
 

And Kenny was an UDFA...not the #34 pick...so it’s not like Kenny immediately got snaps...he had to show out.


I don’t think Rock is a bad player...but he hasn’t really shown that he is a good one yet.

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2 hours ago, shasta519 said:


It didn’t take Kenny a few years. He broke out in his 2nd season...and then Ballard extended him. 
 

Kenny had a 71 PFF grade in his 2nd season...Rock is at 45.9.
 

And Kenny was an UDFA...not the #34 pick...so it’s not like Kenny immediately got snaps...he had to show out.


I don’t think Rock is a bad player...but he hasn’t really shown that he is a good one yet.

 

I just have a bit more patience. You cant just run away from every CB that doesnt pan out right away. 

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Rock Ya Sin works his butt off to improve but right now he is really struggling. Maybe he is showing some tendencies that the coaches need to help him with.  We need him as we will be facing better WRs.  I have seen the coaches switch him out at times with TJ Carrie. 

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16 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Yup. thread already.

 

But... 

1) he had surgery not to long ago

2) his numbers are still better than Moore's...  why don't we have a Moore thread?

I think Moore is getting a pass based on his previous resume in which rock has been inconsistent on a normal basis but I still think Rock is good he’s just been slipping in coverage a little 

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