We are not a Running Football Team

[Knuckles79]

We are 25th in the league in rushing despite the fact we are top five in running attempts per game.

Frank at times seems to be stubborn on his play calls trying to force a running game that we don't have.

I know we must run the ball to keep them honest and wouldn't prefer to air it out but it seems to me we need to open up the Passing game to establish the running game.

[stitches]

We are a running team with sometimes predictable play calling that results into stacked boxes when running and thus poor rushing results.

[John Hammonds]

Just now, stitches said:

We are a running team with sometimes predictable play calling that results into stacked boxes when running and thus poor results.

I think you are right.  Every team is stacking 8 and 9 men against us, daring us to run, and forcing us to throw to our depleted receiving corps to win.

[Knuckles79]

15 minutes ago, stitches said:

We are a running team with sometimes predictable play calling that results into stacked boxes when running and thus poor rushing results.

Last year we ran the ball even if they stacked the box or not. That's why I was saying we must use the passing game to establish the run. To prevent them from stacking the box.To me its obvious we are missing Mack and no longer can run the ball if you know we are running 

[UKColt13]

We are a running team, we’re just not great at it. People see it coming and JT hasn’t broken tackles to gain those extra few yards required to be a run first team.

 

We’ve passed a lot when we’ve been behind to catch up the last 2 weeks. 

[coltsfeva]

  More than anything, we’re a team that is getting better as the year goes on. There’s obviously an issue with Taylor’s timing but I wouldn’t be surprised to see him break a few this year.  Wilkins and Hines are steady and I don’t think we’ve seen their best. I’ve seen plenty of runs this year that have gotten 5+ yards. I agree they have to play better but if by your title, you think we can’t run the ball, I disagree. 

   That being said, your point of opening up the run game by passing, makes sense. 

[funktacious2]

9 minutes ago, UKColt13 said:

We are a running team, we’re just not great at it. People see it coming and JT hasn’t broken tackles to gain those extra few yards required to be a run first team.

 

We’ve passed a lot when we’ve been behind to catch up the last 2 weeks. 

Yeah, I'm inclined to agree to an extent. I was thinking I liked how Wilkins looked as if he was fighting well for extra yards, but then I noticed he has a lower YPC than Taylor so now I have no idea what to think. I just have a hard time believing the o-line is the problem, and the eye test has left me feeling like some runs have just been leaving available yards on thr field.

[chad72]

33 minutes ago, Knuckles79 said:

Last year we ran the ball even if they stacked the box or not. That's why I was saying we must use the passing game to establish the run. To prevent them from stacking the box.To me its obvious we are missing Mack and no longer can run the ball if you know we are running 

 

Let Philip be Philip and let him make the call based on how they are stacking the box. Like Tom Moore did with Peyton, send in 3 plays and let Philip check to the appropriate one. With crowd noise not as much of a factor, should be easier to accomplish with the young pass catchers.

[lollygagger8]

I'm not a smart man, but I'd start here if I were trying to improve the run game: 

 

Stop telegraphing the run

Use waaaaay more play action 

Don't run into a stacked box 

Stop running the smallest RB up the middle and use him in space where he excels 

Hurry up offense seems to work out pretty well, I'd try that more often

Find #56 and run behind that truck 

 

[funktacious2]

Until we can move the ball better on the ground, screens and using our RBs in the passing game will be key imo.

[Fisticuffs111]

53 minutes ago, UKColt13 said:

We are a running team, we’re just not great at it. People see it coming and JT hasn’t broken tackles to gain those extra few yards required to be a run first team.

 

We’ve passed a lot when we’ve been behind to catch up the last 2 weeks. 

 

Yeah, that last part is something I’ve considered as well.

 

To add to that, it seems like our running game has been at its best late in the past two games, after we’ve gotten the defenses respect through the air. Which I know had something to do with Wilkins playing better than JT, but definitely also had to do with getting things going through the air (as well as the hurry up O tiring out opposing D’s).

[shasta519]

Too much running out of shotgun IMO...to keep the other team guessing. It works so much better when you have a mobile QB...but not a statue like Rivers.

 

And then not enough passing from under center. 

 

Predictable playcalling. But a big part of that is that Rivers is an old slower QB I think.

[Flash7]

In the first few games, our passing game consisted of short, quick throws, which basically allowed the opposing defenses to crowd the line and defend against the run and the pass.

 

In the last two games, we've opened up our passing offense with deeper routes and deeper throws. This has forced the defense to play a little further back, which has helped our run game too.

[Smonroe]

It was nice to see that we could close out a game by running the ball, like we did against Detroit.

 

When your O-Line can dominate a tired D line like that, you can grind down the clock and everything opens up.

[DontEverGiveUp]

49 minutes ago, funktacious2 said:

Until we can move the ball better on the ground, screens and using our RBs in the passing game will be key imo.

I agree with this, and I know it can work if done correctly.  Rivers used this strategy for many years in SD/LA, since they were a bad running team ever since LT left.

[shasta519]

35 minutes ago, Fisticuffs111 said:

 

Yeah, that last part is something I’ve considered as well.

 

To add to that, it seems like our running game has been at its best late in the past two games, after we’ve gotten the defenses respect through the air. Which I know had something to do with Wilkins playing better than JT, but definitely also had to do with getting things going through the air (as well as the hurry up O tiring out opposing D’s).

 

This is exactly right. JT ripped off those big runs against CIN...AFTER the Colts had been throwing all over the CIN defense for the past few drives.

 

I know it's not that simple...but this team should be passing to run. 

[runthepost]

Team are going to keep stacking the box with the lack of production at the WR position. Good receivers can spread out a defense more 

[LJpalmbeacher2]

Reich & Ballard want us to be a running team but we lack the personnel to be good at it ( OL & RB ).

[CoachLite]

4 minutes ago, LJpalmbeacher2 said:

Reich & Ballard want us to be a running team but we lack the personnel to be good at it ( OL & RB ).

Perseverance is pounding square pegs into round holes.

[Superman]

2 hours ago, lollygagger8 said:

I'm not a smart man, but I'd start here if I were trying to improve the run game: 

 

Stop telegraphing the run

Use waaaaay more play action 

Don't run into a stacked box 

Stop running the smallest RB up the middle and use him in space where he excels 

Hurry up offense seems to work out pretty well, I'd try that more often

Find #56 and run behind that truck 

 

 

I'm waiting for someone to explain to me why we don't run more play action and screen passes. I've been waiting since 2012.

 

Way too many first down runs last week. And they weren't working. Unsuccessful first down runs are like the #3 drive killer, behind penalties and turnovers (per one stat I saw a while back, I can't find it now). 

 

Of course, what the typical coach and play caller expects is that the more they run the ball, the more likely they are to wear down the defense, and later in the game those runs will start to work better. And that's what happened on Sunday. I think that philosophy ignores the fact that you can wear down a defense simply by moving the ball, it doesn't have to be with unsuccessful run plays. 

 

The Cowboys offense started out on fire last year. They were running play action on nearly 50% of their pass plays, and Dak was excellent. I want to see an offense commit to that approach for an entire season. The Bengals should do that the rest of the year.

[twfish]

3 hours ago, stitches said:

We are a running team with sometimes predictable play calling that results into stacked boxes when running and thus poor rushing results.

Just sometimes? I can usually call when we are going to run and in what direction, if i can the coordinators who study film definitely can

[Thunderbolt]

In other words, the OC is being out coached in the run game.  I say from previous post, predictability is the achilles heel of our run game.  Need to mix it up a bit.

[Mr.NotSoCreative]

4 hours ago, stitches said:

We are a running team with sometimes predictable play calling that results into stacked boxes when running and thus poor rushing results.

Thats why we are running more RPOs. If PR sees them coming up he pulls out and throws it. Low and behold it works. Just cut out the predictable stuff and we should be able to change this narrative.

[stitches]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

I'm waiting for someone to explain to me why we don't run more play action and screen passes. I've been waiting since 2012.

 

Way too many first down runs last week. And they weren't working. Unsuccessful first down runs are like the #3 drive killer, behind penalties and turnovers (per one stat I saw a while back, I can't find it now). 

 

Of course, what the typical coach and play caller expects is that the more they run the ball, the more likely they are to wear down the defense, and later in the game those runs will start to work better. And that's what happened on Sunday. I think that philosophy ignores the fact that you can wear down a defense simply by moving the ball, it doesn't have to be with unsuccessful run plays. 

 

The Cowboys offense started out on fire last year. They were running play action on nearly 50% of their pass plays, and Dak was excellent. I want to see an offense commit to that approach for an entire season. The Bengals should do that the rest of the year.

At what point do we conclude that this is just Reich's natural tendency and that he's a naturally conservative playcaller? I remember telling you after the first Luck+Reich year and Reich's public statements after that season that I thought there is a good chance that it was actually Luck who was driving that offense and making changes of the plays at the LoS and not Reich, whose public statements all pointed to him being enamored with the run game and even supporting his vision with bad arguments. And BTW... I kind of wish Rivers would start doing more of it too. There have been multiple times we've seen him make great adjustments and audibles this year already. 

[CoachLite]

1 hour ago, Thunderbolt said:

In other words, the OC is being out coached in the run game.  I say from previous post, predictability is the achilles heel of our run game.  Need to mix it up a bit.

"But that's the way we've always done it!"

[indyagent17]

Rivers is not very strong in play action. I also agree Reich is way to predictable and that has to change. We will find out on Sunday if coach can draw up a game plan against a very good team 

[onebad150]

15 minutes ago, indyagent17 said:

Rivers is not very strong in play action. I also agree Reich is way to predictable and that has to change. We will find out on Sunday if coach can draw up a game plan against a very good team 

When Reich was OC at Phillie and they went to the SB, He did not do the play calling. Just think about it. 

 

[chad72]

22 minutes ago, indyagent17 said:

Rivers is not very strong in play action. I also agree Reich is way to predictable and that has to change. We will find out on Sunday if coach can draw up a game plan against a very good team 

 

What makes you say that? Is it just conjecture? 

[lollygagger8]

2 hours ago, Superman said:

 

I'm waiting for someone to explain to me why we don't run more play action and screen passes. I've been waiting since 2012.

 

[Nickster]

2 hours ago, Superman said:

 

I'm waiting for someone to explain to me why we don't run more play action and screen passes. I've been waiting since 2012.

 

Way too many first down runs last week. And they weren't working. Unsuccessful first down runs are like the #3 drive killer, behind penalties and turnovers (per one stat I saw a while back, I can't find it now). 

 

Of course, what the typical coach and play caller expects is that the more they run the ball, the more likely they are to wear down the defense, and later in the game those runs will start to work better. And that's what happened on Sunday. I think that philosophy ignores the fact that you can wear down a defense simply by moving the ball, it doesn't have to be with unsuccessful run plays. 

 

The Cowboys offense started out on fire last year. They were running play action on nearly 50% of their pass plays, and Dak was excellent. I want to see an offense commit to that approach for an entire season. The Bengals should do that the rest of the year.

I think I can clear up the PA thing.  PA only works when you have an established running game.  The running game has to give the LBs and occasionally safeties something to bite on.  Right now NO ONE fears our running game with the worst ypc in football despite a rather lite schedule thus far.   LBs should not be over concerned with getting beat by the Colts running game.

 

The Cowboys running game struck fear in teams.

 

Screens work best when you have a big upfield rush, especially when more than 4 are coming after the QB.  I'd be interested to see how often teams send more than 4 against us.  I like screens a lot.

 

[Superman]

1 hour ago, stitches said:

At what point do we conclude that this is just Reich's natural tendency and that he's a naturally conservative playcaller? I remember telling you after the first Luck+Reich year and Reich's public statements after that season that I thought there is a good chance that it was actually Luck who was driving that offense and making changes of the plays at the LoS and not Reich, whose public statements all pointed to him being enamored with the run game and even supporting his vision with bad arguments. And BTW... I kind of wish Rivers would start doing more of it too. There have been multiple times we've seen him make great adjustments and audibles this year already. 

 

Trying to give him the benefit of the doubt, but I'm getting there.

 

Of course, it's hard to know where the play caller ends and the QB begins, especially when you have a guy with some experience and freedom at the LOS. For example, Rivers apparently checked into a run play on a third down last week, and we didn't convert.

 

I'm noticing other concerns with the offense lately. 

 

But in SD, Reich was pass happy. And he's had three very different QBs in three years with the Colts. But it's becoming more and  more clear what his leanings are as a play caller and decision maker. 

 

Edit: By the way, there were times in 2018 that Reich's play calliing was fantastic, IMO. I had very high hopes at the time.

[Superman]

13 minutes ago, Nickster said:

I think I can clear up the PA thing.  PA only works when you have an established running game.  The running game has to give the LBs and occasionally safeties something to bite on.  Right now NO ONE fears our running game with the worst ypc in football despite a rather lite schedule thus far.   LBs should not be over concerned with getting beat by the Colts running game.

 

The Cowboys running game struck fear in teams.

 

Screens work best when you have a big upfield rush, especially when more than 4 are coming after the QB.  I'd be interested to see how often teams send more than 4 against us.  I like screens a lot.

 

It's a myth that you need a good or even established run game for play action to be effective. Play action works whether you have a good run game or not.

[chad72]

33 minutes ago, onebad150 said:

When Reich was OC at Phillie and they went to the SB, He did not do the play calling. Just think about it. 

 

 

While that might be true, I am still hopeful Reich's play calling gets better as the season goes on and Rivers gets more comfortable with the offense that he will start making a lot of checks at the line of scrimmage.

 

I just feel right now we are looking for more punching bags right now as a forum.  

 

It may not be a bad idea for Reich to supervise, but delegate the play calling to Nick Sirianni totally, to be honest. It might help him gauge the game flow and be able to see what is working and what is not faster, which he may not be able to get to see fast enough as both an HC and play caller. Again, that is just an educated guess.

 

[Nickster]

6 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

It's a myth that you need a good or even established run game for play action to be effective. Play action works whether you have a good run game or not.

Really? I stand corrected. 

[chad72]

12 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

It's a myth that you need a good or even established run game for play action to be effective. Play action works whether you have a good run game or not.

 

You are right, it is explained here:

 

https://sloanreview.mit.edu/audio/the-running-game-is-only-mostly-dead/#:~:text=And I think that's one,have to defend a run.

 

Go to the section here:

 

 And I think that’s one of the big arguments for running the ball is that you have to run the ball to set up play action. But the data has shown that you can still have an effective play action game without “establishing the run.” Because linebackers and defenses — it’s so ingrained for them to have to defend a run. When they see a possible play fake and they see gaps opening up, they’re trained to have to stop that run and move forward. And even if you don’t establish the run, that kind of training is going to make them move up, and that causes your play action to still work.

 

 

[stitches]

20 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Trying to give him the benefit of the doubt, but I'm getting there.

 

Of course, it's hard to know where the play caller ends and the QB begins, especially when you have a guy with some experience and freedom at the LOS. For example, Rivers apparently checked into a run play on a third down last week, and we didn't convert.

Sure, I don't mind that. You won't make the play on every single instance, whether run or pass is chosen/switched to. 

 

Quote

 

I'm noticing other concerns with the offense lately. 

 

But in SD, Reich was pass happy. And he's had three very different QBs in three years with the Colts. But it's becoming more and  more clear what his leanings are as a play caller and decision maker. 

 

Edit: By the way, there were times in 2018 that Reich's play calliing was fantastic, IMO. I had very high hopes at the time.

I was very encouraged in 2018 about the offense too, and I credited both Luck and Reich with it(it was hard to separate the influece of each of them on the offensive game the Colts played). They seemed like a great pairing, though. But then in the off-season(before Luck retired) Reich started saying stuff that 1. go against what we were seeing in the games, 2. are not supported by evidence(like the playaction needing good run game or the passing game opening up with better run game). Then Luck retired and he switched to run heavy play calling with Brissett and I was willing to credit it to him not trusting Jacoby to throw(deservedly so) and still had some hopes that we will see a more pass-happy offense this year with Rivers (especially on 1st and second down and in neutral situations), but we have been among the most run-heavy teams again... even though our pass-game has been very efficient and our run game has been horrible. 

[bestQBever]

We are a running team. Our lead rb just isn't good enough YET.

[Superman]

26 minutes ago, stitches said:

Sure, I don't mind that. You won't make the play on every single instance, whether run or pass is chosen/switched to. 

 

I was very encouraged in 2018 about the offense too, and I credited both Luck and Reich with it(it was hard to separate the influece of each of them on the offensive game the Colts played). They seemed like a great pairing, though. But then in the off-season(before Luck retired) Reich started saying stuff that 1. go against what we were seeing in the games, 2. are not supported by evidence(like the playaction needing good run game or the passing game opening up with better run game). Then Luck retired and he switched to run heavy play calling with Brissett and I was willing to credit it to him not trusting Jacoby to throw(deservedly so) and still had some hopes that we will see a more pass-happy offense this year with Rivers (especially on 1st and second down and in neutral situations), but we have been among the most run-heavy teams again... even though our pass-game has been very efficient and our run game has been horrible. 

 

I can't argue with any of this. Wish I could...

[Korey]

I just keep waiting on Taylor to show up and be the Super Man that everyone said he was when we drafted him. 

 

Marlon Mack is a major reason why we aren't a good running team this season. 

[Superman]

 

38 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

You are right, it is explained here:

 

https://sloanreview.mit.edu/audio/the-running-game-is-only-mostly-dead/#:~:text=And I think that's one,have to defend a run.

 

Go to the section here:

 

 And I think that’s one of the big arguments for running the ball is that you have to run the ball to set up play action. But the data has shown that you can still have an effective play action game without “establishing the run.” Because linebackers and defenses — it’s so ingrained for them to have to defend a run. When they see a possible play fake and they see gaps opening up, they’re trained to have to stop that run and move forward. And even if you don’t establish the run, that kind of training is going to make them move up, and that causes your play action to still work.

 

More here: https://ftw.usatoday.com/2019/09/nfl-play-action-passing-stats-2019-cowboys-ravens-chiefs