Leonard compared to Ray Lewis?

[Trace Pyott]

A few weeks ago someone posted stats comparing the two and If I recall Leonard actually had the better stats thus far in his career. I’m not saying who is better nor am I saying Leonard will be better. I’m curios what similarities they have and differences.  I’m asking this because I hear the two compared to one another quite often and sadly  I never really watched a lot of ravens games so I never really got to see lewis in his prime.
  Do they play the game similar?  Are their measurable comparable?  What’s their strengths and weaknesses?  It seems we move him around a lot, is that common with his position?  
 Any info would be great.

 

Btw, this last week I was super impressed by Leonard. Maybe more so than I have ever been. I think there was a 3 play stretch where he literally made every play and tackle, and he had that forced fumble as well.  He just jumps off the screen with his length, especially arms and his speed. The only person that jumps off the screen to me as much as him is Buckner.  Anyways thanks for the info. I was curious and I also wanted to show him some love for how he played this last week. I think he’s a superstar in the making. 
   
 

[crazycolt1]

The Maniac plays with just as much intensity as did Lewis. 

Leonard is at a HOF pace. 

[Trace Pyott]

39 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

The Maniac plays with just as much intensity as did Lewis. 

Leonard is at a HOF pace. 

Thanks for the info and reply but can you please elaborate on the other stuff I asked about?  How do they compare as far as speed and physical traits?  Who was better against the run or pass?  What about football Iq and play recognition?  Lol I know this is some pretty in depth analysis I’m asking of you guys but I know some of you guys are walking and talking football encyclopedias so I know one of you guys know the answers to this stuff, that's the only reason I’m asking.   Thanks a lot for all info and replies. 

[AwesomeAustin]

I think there was a decent size thread about this topic a year or so ago.  General consensus was Leonard is an excellent player and off to a great start but has a long ways to go to be considered in the same class as Ray Lewis.  Then some dude went off about Lewis’ personal life and criminal history that derailed the entire thread.  I hope that doesn’t happen again lol. 

[lollygagger8]

Yay! Lewis w/o the murder would be awesome! lol

[Knuckles79]

My dad and I was talking Colts football yesterday, I made the statement that Leanord was the closes thing to Lewis I have ever seen. He may not be as good at the moment but his play and fire sure reminds me of Lewis. Our defense feeds off of his energy 

[ProblChld32]

4 hours ago, Trace Pyott said:

A few weeks ago someone posted stats comparing the two and If I recall Leonard actually had the better stats thus far in his career. I’m not saying who is better nor am I saying Leonard will be better. I’m curios what similarities they have and differences.  I’m asking this because I hear the two compared to one another quite often and sadly  I never really watched a lot of ravens games so I never really got to see lewis in his prime.
  Do they play the game similar?  Are their measurable comparable?  What’s their strengths and weaknesses?  It seems we move him around a lot, is that common with his position?  
 Any info would be great.

 

Btw, this last week I was super impressed by Leonard. Maybe more so than I have ever been. I think there was a 3 play stretch where he literally made every play and tackle, and he had that forced fumble as well.  He just jumps off the screen with his length, especially arms and his speed. The only person that jumps off the screen to me as much as him is Buckner.  Anyways thanks for the info. I was curious and I also wanted to show him some love for how he played this last week. I think he’s a superstar in the making. 
   
 

In my opinion if you’re comparing him to greats, I’d say his play style would closely compare and or resemble that of a Junior Seau, Willie Lanier or Derrick Brooks. I really emphasize on Derrick Brooks. The reason I don’t think his style of play to Ray Lewis is because Ray Lewis was an intimidator downhill run stuffer. He wasn't as great in pass coverage as Leonard is. But Brooks on the other hand was an all around playmaker for the Bucs. Just like Leonard is for the Colts. They both excel in coverage and really solid against the run, but could also rush the passer when needed. The only thing you can really compare to Ray Lewis and Maniac is Charismatic character and leadership.

[chad72]

Derrick Brooks is a better comparison based on the position he plays as WLB. Ray Lewis was more inside linebacker who could stuff runs and intimidate. Darius Leonard is more Derrick Brooks like.

[Myles]

18 minutes ago, chad72 said:

Derrick Brooks is a better comparison based on the position he plays as WLB. Ray Lewis was more inside linebacker who could stuff runs and intimidate. Darius Leonard is more Derrick Brooks like.

I agree.  What's amazing is that Leonard has much better stats than Brooks had in his first few years.   INT's, tackles, sacks, forced fumbles and tackles for a loss.    

[SteelCityColt]

33 minutes ago, chad72 said:

Derrick Brooks is a better comparison based on the position he plays as WLB. Ray Lewis was more inside linebacker who could stuff runs and intimidate. Darius Leonard is more Derrick Brooks like.

 

Couldn't agree more, not a like for like comparison. I'd also argue the game itself has changed and Lewis would be less successful (although obviously not a JAG) in today's league.

[Hoose]

A couple of other throwback names and a more recent one who compare to The Maniac: 

Jack Ham

Tom Jackson

Patrick Willis

Great players who could cover the pass,  stuff the run, and blitz. Not to mention the emotional leaders of their respective Defenses. 

[shasta519]

42 minutes ago, Myles said:

I agree.  What's amazing is that Leonard has much better stats than Brooks had in his first few years.   INT's, tackles, sacks, forced fumbles and tackles for a loss.    

 

Brooks didn't really take off until his 3rd season (age 24)...and then just dominated up until age 29. Leonard is just entering that range of his career as well. I think Brooks will have him on tackles stats (solo and TFL)...but Leonard will have him on sacks and INTs (if he can keep up the pace he has been on so far).

 

The key will be staying healthy. Brooks didn't miss games...like I mean he literally didn't miss any games. For Leonard to be that type of generational player...he will need to stay healthy.

[Nickster]

2 hours ago, ProblChld32 said:

In my opinion if you’re comparing him to greats, I’d say his play style would closely compare and or resemble that of a Junior Seau, Willie Lanier or Derrick Brooks. I really emphasize on Derrick Brooks. The reason I don’t think his style of play to Ray Lewis is because Ray Lewis was an intimidator downhill run stuffer. He wasn't as great in pass coverage as Leonard is. But Brooks on the other hand was an all around playmaker for the Bucs. Just like Leonard is for the Colts. They both excel in coverage and really solid against the run, but could also rush the passer when needed. The only thing you can really compare to Ray Lewis and Maniac is Charismatic character and leadership.

Brooks was one of the greatest coverage LBs of all time.  The Tampa 2 came to prominence because Brooks could run with any TE to the deep middle which is essential because the deep middle is a soft spot in it.  
 

I don't think Leonard has Brooks chops in coverage.  Leonard is more of a playmaker than I remember Brooks being.  Leonard has one half less sack than Brooks had in his entire career.   Brooks played on the defensive side of the LOS.  He was great at making tackles in the run game too, but lots of guys can do that.  What separated him was his ability to run down the field with TEs.

[shasta519]

36 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

Couldn't agree more, not a like for like comparison. I'd also argue the game itself has changed and Lewis would be less successful (although obviously not a JAG) in today's league.

 

Actually...I couldn't disagree more. Later career Ray Lewis...sure...maybe he's not as successful...but that's not really a fair comp...because (nearly) all players get less effective as they age.

 

The fair comp would earlier career Ray Lewis (like through his 20s) because Leonard is also early in his career...and I think that version of Lewis would easily have been an elite WILL or MIKE in today's game...whichever position he played. 

 

Lewis certainly had the athleticism (probably even moreso than Leonard if we measured)...and his game speed was so fast. He also had those same long-* arms (34" for Lewis). He was great in pass coverage and was a great tackler...but even more importantly...he was one of the most instinctual and smartest LBers to ever play. I think, in today's NFL....he would have put up even gaudier stats...especially if he was able to blitz 3-4x per game.

 

We don't even really have to play hypotheticals. People forget...but for the first 6 years of his career he played in a 4-3 defense under Marvin Lewis...where he was able to play a similar "roaming" style to Leonard...and he was incredible (tackles, sacks, INTs, TFL). Even Leonard can't touch the AV he had from age 24-26. And that was in an era with teams throwing a lot less and throwing much shorter passes.

 

It wasn't until Lewis left and Mike Nolan showed up...that Lewis was moved to 3-4 ILB. But he was still incredible...until he got older.

 

 

[SteelCityColt]

9 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

 

Actually...I couldn't disagree more. Later career Ray Lewis...sure...maybe he's not as successful...but that's not really a fair comp...because (nearly) all players get less effective as they age.

 

The fair comp would earlier career Ray Lewis (like through his 20s) because Leonard is also early in his career...and I think that version of Lewis would easily have been an elite WILL or MIKE in today's game...whichever position he played. 

 

Lewis certainly had the athleticism (probably even moreso than Leonard if we measured)...and his game speed was so fast. He also had those same long-* arms (34" for Lewis). He was great in pass coverage and was a great tackler...but even more importantly...he was one of the most instinctual and smartest LBers to ever play. I think, in today's NFL....he would have put up even gaudier stats...especially if he was able to blitz 3-4x per game.

 

We don't even really have to play hypotheticals. People forget...but for the first 6 years of his career he played in a 4-3 defense under Marvin Lewis...where he was able to play a similar "roaming" style to Leonard...and he was incredible (tackles, sacks, INTs, TFL). Even Leonard can't touch the AV he had from age 24-26. And that was in an era with teams throwing a lot less and throwing much shorter passes.

 

It wasn't until Lewis left and Mike Nolan showed up...that Lewis was moved to 3-4 ILB. But he was still incredible...until he got older.

 

 

 

Good post! You've sold me. I think you're correct in that most of my NFL memories, coming the the game later being a horrible Limey and all, was Lewis not quite being prime Lewis. Still mega, and absolutely the leader of that team, but I tend to think more of say Patrick Willis being the stand out MLB for that period.

 

Now, where do we get some Lewis DNA and a cloning chamber...

[shasta519]

17 minutes ago, Nickster said:

Brooks was one of the greatest coverage LBs of all time.  The Tampa 2 came to prominence because Brooks could run with any TE to the deep middle which is essential because the deep middle is a soft spot in it.  
 

I don't think Leonard has Brooks chops in coverage.  Leonard is more of a playmaker than I remember Brooks being.  Leonard has one half less sack than Brooks had in his entire career.   Brooks played on the defensive side of the LOS.  He was great at making tackles in the run game too, but lots of guys can do that.  What separated him was his ability to run down the field with TEs.

 

Right. And I can't find numbers...but I think it's a fair assumption that Leonard blitzed far more often than players like Brooks or Lewis. And if you include delayed blitzes (which I am not sure if they are officially counted)...that rate is even higher.

 

Last season...Leonard blitzed 4x per game on average. This year...he has blitzed only 5 times in 5 games...and last week was first sack. So I think it really goes back to how a player is utilized.

[LJpalmbeacher2]

So maybe Leonard should have a very good criminal attorney handy.

[shasta519]

4 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

Good post! You've sold me. I think you're correct in that most of my NFL memories, coming the the game later being a horrible Limey and all, was Lewis not quite being prime Lewis. Still mega, and absolutely the leader of that team, but I tend to think more of say Patrick Willis being the stand out MLB for that period.

 

Now, where do we get some Lewis DNA and a cloning chamber...

 

Yeah...by the time Willis got into the league...Lewis was already 32...so Willis was the "next Ray Lewis"...because of how good he was and because Nolan was the HC in SF at the time (who had coached Lewis).

 

Everybody seems to remember the Rex Ryan 3-4 defenses...but Lewis was already 30 when he showed up. The historically great BAL defense that won the Super Bowl was actually the 4-3 defense with Marvin Lewis (and prime Ray Lewis).

[Trace Pyott]

Thanks for all the info. I totally

forgot about brooks. 

[Nickster]

2 hours ago, shasta519 said:

 

Right. And I can't find numbers...but I think it's a fair assumption that Leonard blitzed far more often than players like Brooks or Lewis. And if you include delayed blitzes (which I am not sure if they are officially counted)...that rate is even higher.

 

Last season...Leonard blitzed 4x per game on average. This year...he has blitzed only 5 times in 5 games...and last week was first sack. So I think it really goes back to how a player is utilized.

yeah, there wouldn't be too many downs in Tampa 2 that would make any sense to blitz Brooks.  He was just too valuable in coverage.

[Two_pound]

I started voting for Leonard for defensive player of the year after week 3 and I am voting again this week for him. There is no one in the nfl playing at his level on the defensive side of the ball right now.

[CurBeatElite]

12 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

The Maniac plays with just as much intensity as did Lewis. 

Leonard is at a HOF pace. 

 

The intensity and leadership Leonard plays with are the two main things that remind me of Lewis.  Those two traits and both of them have (in Lewis' case had) the knack to make big time plays at critical moments.  Otherwise, I think they're pretty different players.  

 

Lewis was a littler faster straight ahead, but I don't remember him being able to cover the field side-to-side like Leonard could.  Lewis also had an elite D most of the time he was in Balt (he was the leader, but for many years he had a HOF free safety in Ed Reed, a great pass rusher in Terrell Suggs, Peter Boulware, Chris McAlister, Bart Scott, Adalius Thomas (in 2006 they had 4 LBs make the pro bowl, which is ridiculous), Haloti Ngata, etc.  

 

Leonard now has Buckner, and Houston has been very good (on the tail end of his career) but otherwise, I don't think the level of talent surround Leonard has really been comparable to what Lewis had throughout his career.  

Also hard to compare them since we play a 4-3 and Lewis was in a 3-4 the vast majority (if not all) of his career and Lewis was an ILB, whereas Leonard is mainly outside.  Therefore, I agree with the other posters that Leonard is more comparable to Derrick Brooks.  That said, they are two very different players as well (IMO).  Leonard gets far more sacks than Brooks ever did (he'll surpass Brooks' career sack numbers with just 1 more sack) and also more interceptions and FFs.  Early in his career, Leonard is putting up more tackles per season as well (Brooks was a good, but not elite LB as a rookie).  

 

Leonard was a first team all-pro as a rookie, neither Lewis or Brooks can say that.  I don't really think it's fair to compare Leonard to anyone right now, he's really playing his own style of football.  He's definitely got Lewis' leadership and fire, but he's longer and plays longer/lankier than Lewis.  He's got similar (maybe not quite as good) coverage ability to Brooks.  Leonard is the first player in NFL history (at least since 1982 when sacks and interceptions were both official stats) to record >10 sacks and >5 interceptions in his first 25 games (https://coltswire.usatoday.com/2019/12/09/indianapolis-colts-darius-leonard-making-history-impact-plays/).  

 

Leonard is a very unique player.  Very glad he's a Colt.  Very funny that people bashed Ballard for reaching on him and watching Leonard help prove Ballard right.  My main concern with Leonard is him staying healthy.  He missed a game as a rookie.  Missed 3 in year 2 (some retirement talk there, as his concussion symptoms lasted longer than normal and were pretty severe) and has missed a few games this year....  One of Brooks' best attributes was he played in 16 games all 14 seasons in the NFL (the only 2 seasons he didn't have >100 tackles were his rookie year and his last year -- a 12 year stretch of >100 tackles is a remarkable stat).... Lewis had 8 seasons with 16 games played in his 17 year career... Leonard in 3 seasons has yet been able to say he has (or can) play 16 games.

[crazycolt1]

He is the Maniac.   

[Dark Superman]

Ray Lewis was also surrounded with a ton of Pro Bowl talent during his career. Leonard's stats thus far are more impressive than Lewis, he's definitely on a HOF pace if he can keep this up for another decade.

[Jackie Daytona]

21 hours ago, Trace Pyott said:

A few weeks ago someone posted stats comparing the two and If I recall Leonard actually had the better stats thus far in his career. I’m not saying who is better nor am I saying Leonard will be better. I’m curios what similarities they have and differences.  I’m asking this because I hear the two compared to one another quite often and sadly  I never really watched a lot of ravens games so I never really got to see lewis in his prime.
  Do they play the game similar?  Are their measurable comparable?  What’s their strengths and weaknesses?  It seems we move him around a lot, is that common with his position?  
 Any info would be great.

 

Btw, this last week I was super impressed by Leonard. Maybe more so than I have ever been. I think there was a 3 play stretch where he literally made every play and tackle, and he had that forced fumble as well.  He just jumps off the screen with his length, especially arms and his speed. The only person that jumps off the screen to me as much as him is Buckner.  Anyways thanks for the info. I was curious and I also wanted to show him some love for how he played this last week. I think he’s a superstar in the making. 
   
 

Leonard Kills it on the field quite often, but unlike Lewis, isn't killin so much off it....

[Nickster]

13 hours ago, Shafty138 said:

Leonard Kills it on the field quite often, but unlike Lewis, isn't killin so much off it....

I just hope one of our draftees ends up being half as good at receiver as our hall of fame murderer.

[crazycolt1]

2 hours ago, Nickster said:

I just hope one of our draftees ends up being half as good at receiver as our hall of fame murderer.

Yeah it's not surprising that Lewis found a bible when facing time in jail. That is one of the oldest tricks in prison history.  <=====> 

[aaron11]

people are still salty about the ray lewis self defense incident?  his accomplices did not have top tier lawyers and a jury of peers ruled they acted in self defense.

 

they should not have started stuff with ray lewis 

[crazycolt1]

1 hour ago, aaron11 said:

people are still salty about the ray lewis self defense incident?  his accomplices did not have top tier lawyers and a jury of peers ruled they acted in self defense.

 

they should not have started stuff with ray lewis 

 Just because he wasn't convicted does not mean he wasn't involved in a double murder. 

 Till the cloths he was wearing is accounted for IMO he is not truthful. Therefor doubt is there.

 

[bestQBever]

Ik Ray Lewis is argubly the greatest leader of all time but they way Darius leads our defense and impacts our entire team is almost as impressive to me.

[coltsfeva]

I don’t know if I’ve ever seen a better LB than Lawrence Taylor. 
Leonard has a bit of that “dawg” in him that Taylor had. He’s definitely a playmaker that can change a game.

[Moosejawcolt]

On 11/3/2020 at 9:10 AM, Nickster said:

Brooks was one of the greatest coverage LBs of all time.  The Tampa 2 came to prominence because Brooks could run with any TE to the deep middle which is essential because the deep middle is a soft spot in it.  
 

I don't think Leonard has Brooks chops in coverage.  Leonard is more of a playmaker than I remember Brooks being.  Leonard has one half less sack than Brooks had in his entire career.   Brooks played on the defensive side of the LOS.  He was great at making tackles in the run game too, but lots of guys can do that.  What separated him was his ability to run down the field with TEs.

 U hit the nail on the head.  No one compares to Brooks in coverage. Leonard isnt close.

[carmelcolt]

What I did notice was when Leonard was out for the 2 games due to injury the defense got off to a slow start. They did pick up the intensity in the 2nd half of both games, but that shows that Leonard brings the IT factor when he is available to start. We forget he is only in his 3rd year and also given the responsibility to get everyone set as far as responsibilities go, can't wait to see him by year 5 if he keeps growing at this rate. On a side note I think NO 53 is my next jersey, he should be a Colt for a very long time.;

[aaron11]

On 11/4/2020 at 7:18 PM, crazycolt1 said:

 Just because he wasn't convicted does not mean he wasn't involved in a double murder. 

 Till the cloths he was wearing is accounted for IMO he is not truthful. Therefor doubt is there.

 

he did try to hide it.  i think that can be explained by him worrying about being a black man on trial for murder.  

[crazycolt1]

53 minutes ago, aaron11 said:

he did try to hide it.  i think that can be explained by him worrying about being a black man on trial for murder.  

This is not a debatable issue with me. 

Believe what you want and I will continue to believe I have my doubts. 

[Four2itus]

On 11/4/2020 at 5:56 PM, Moosejawcolt said:

 U hit the nail on the head.  No one compares to Brooks in coverage. Leonard isnt close.

Well, they didn't really start game logs until around 1999-2000, but I tried to do a comparison. I took 33 games in the NFL, but I had to use the first 33 for Darius,  and Brooks after 4 years experience before the numbers were logged. Regardless, here is how they stack up. Apologies if I miscounted any of this...

 

Darius - 33 games 320 total tackles, 22 tackles for loss, 7 int's, 13 sacks, 17 passes defensed. 

Derrick - 33 games 224 total tackles, 27 tackles for loss, 5 int's, 3 sacks, 25 passes defensed.

 

 

[crazycolt1]

32 minutes ago, Four2itus said:

Well, they didn't really start game logs until around 1999-2000, but I tried to do a comparison. I took 33 games in the NFL, but I had to use the first 33 for Darius,  and Brooks after 4 years experience before the numbers were logged. Regardless, here is how they stack up. Apologies if I miscounted any of this...

 

Darius - 33 games 320 total tackles, 22 tackles for loss, 7 int's, 13 sacks, 17 passes defensed. 

Derrick - 33 games 224 total tackles, 27 tackles for loss, 5 int's, 3 sacks, 25 passes defensed.

 

 

So I guess Darius does compare 

[ColtsBlueFL]

On 11/3/2020 at 6:05 AM, AwesomeAustin said:

I think there was a decent size thread about this topic a year or so ago.  General consensus was Leonard is an excellent player and off to a great start but has a long ways to go to be considered in the same class as Ray Lewis.  Then some dude went off about Lewis’ personal life and criminal history that derailed the entire thread.  I hope that doesn’t happen again lol. 

 

Well then...  I will    and at some point if necessary...  .   Keep it on topic posters.

 

On 11/3/2020 at 7:43 AM, ProblChld32 said:

In my opinion if you’re comparing him to greats, I’d say his play style would closely compare and or resemble that of a Junior Seau, Willie Lanier or Derrick Brooks. I really emphasize on Derrick Brooks. The reason I don’t think his style of play to Ray Lewis is because Ray Lewis was an intimidator downhill run stuffer. He wasn't as great in pass coverage as Leonard is. But Brooks on the other hand was an all around playmaker for the Bucs. Just like Leonard is for the Colts. They both excel in coverage and really solid against the run, but could also rush the passer when needed. The only thing you can really compare to Ray Lewis and Maniac is Charismatic character and leadership.

 

Brooks is a very good comp.

 

On 11/3/2020 at 9:34 AM, Hoose said:

A couple of other throwback names and a more recent one who compare to The Maniac: 

Jack Ham

Tom Jackson

Patrick Willis

Great players who could cover the pass,  stuff the run, and blitz. Not to mention the emotional leaders of their respective Defenses. 

 

Oh man, now you stirred my pot!  How about Chris Hanburger, Chuck Howley, Andre Tippett, Cornelius Bennett, and Rickey Jackson... to start?!

 

On 11/3/2020 at 10:38 AM, SteelCityColt said:

Good post! You've sold me. I think you're correct in that most of my NFL memories, coming the the game later being a horrible Limey and all, was Lewis not quite being prime Lewis. Still mega, and absolutely the leader of that team, but I tend to think more of say Patrick Willis being the stand out MLB for that period.

 

What? No Love for Brian Urlacher? (who's career began quite earlier but overlapped). What is unreal was the Bears had Mike Singletary at MLB before him, and Dick Butkus before him!!

 

Speaking of before players, check out another previous #53 linebacker for the (Baltimore then) Colts - Stan White. For being drafted #438 out of #444, he did quite OK.  He is now color analyst for Baltimore Ravens radio broadcast team, much like Rick Venturi is for the Colts radio broadcasts. (Used to be Jim Sorgi).

 

 

[aaron11]

14 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

This is not a debatable issue with me. 

Believe what you want and I will continue to believe I have my doubts. 

doubts about what?

[Nickster]

On 11/3/2020 at 9:49 AM, LJpalmbeacher2 said:

So maybe Leonard should have a very good criminal attorney handy.

Yep.  You never know when  someone is going to need to be dealt with.