Still want Cam Newton and Andy Dalton over Philip Rivers?

[w87r 2,793]

47 minutes ago, Thebrashandthebold said:

 

I would take Cam over Rivers at anytime in his career including right now. The Patriots don't have many weapons on offense anymore and Cam is carrying everything. He missed two weeks of practice as did most of the team with Covid-19. He will be back and he will be back 100%. There is nothing wrong with his arm. There is nothing wrong with his legs and certainly nothing wrong with his legs. Cam Newton is a sure fire Hall of Famer not a borderline selection like Rivers. Now add that Rivers cost $24 million dollars more this year. Yeah, I take Cam and it isn't even close.

 

 

 

In what world in Cam a sure fire HOFer?

[crazycolt1 14,270]

5 hours ago, coming on strong said:

Weapons matter though look at brady this year .last year he was bottom 5 in a lot of passing stats . Cam never had elite weapons . You don't win mvp being terrible.  Also winning rookie of the year .  Didnt luck have below 60 percent a couple of years with a ton of picks ?  I believe luck is elite he just had a bad line and weapons those years 

So Greg Olson  wasn't elite? 

How about the few years he played with Steve Smith? 

Kelvin Benjamin was pretty good too. 

DeAngelo Williams and Johnathon Stewart were also elite weapons. 

 

 

[Moosejawcolt 1,237]

On 10/26/2020 at 12:53 AM, crazycolt1 said:

I would rather have a team that wants to win over a team that has a losers mentality. 

Tank=loser mentality

I am not ralking  bout tankin per se.  I just want this team to make a decsion about their future qb. The only thing that signing Rivers did was ensuring mediocrity and delaying the need

to draft the future . I think Ballard drinks his own kool aid. He truly beleives he has built a Superbowl talented team and all they needed was a qb. He was wrong and I said before the year began, I didnt buy the hype.

[2006Coltsbestever 29,281]

4 hours ago, Thebrashandthebold said:

 

I would take Cam over Rivers at anytime in his career including right now. The Patriots don't have many weapons on offense anymore and Cam is carrying everything. He missed two weeks of practice as did most of the team with Covid-19. He will be back and he will be back 100%. There is nothing wrong with his arm. There is nothing wrong with his legs and certainly nothing wrong with his legs. Cam Newton is a sure fire Hall of Famer not a borderline selection like Rivers. Now add that Rivers cost $24 million dollars more this year. Yeah, I take Cam and it isn't even close.

 

No way is Cam a HOFamer unless he puts up huge numbers over the next 5 years or wins a SB, he isn't getting in. He had 1 spectacular season which was in 2015 but stunk in the SB. Rivers has 60,000 yards passing and would've made a SB in 2007 had it not been for Tom Brady. He lost in the AFC Title Game.

[Superman 37,555]

16 hours ago, Thebrashandthebold said:

Cam Newton is a sure fire Hall of Famer

 

No he isn't.

[Thebrashandthebold 10]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

No he isn't.

He is certainly a lot closer to it than Phillip Rivers and he has years to add to his numbers and perhaps more Super Bowl appearances. I just disagree with you. Rivers may be HoF but Cam has helped change the game and has an MVP and a Super Bowl appearance that Phillip does not have. That makes him a lock in my mind.

 

[coming on strong 661]

14 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

So Greg Olson  wasn't elite? 

How about the few years he played with Steve Smith? 

Kelvin Benjamin was pretty good too. 

DeAngelo Williams and Johnathon Stewart were also elite weapons. 

 

 

Steve Smith was old by the time cam got there .  Greg Olson is really solid but I wouldn't say he is elite like Gronkowski.  Greg Olson is more like a Jack doyle who was a pro bowler also . As a whole his weapons were average . Give him what brady has now and I believe he will do great.      

 

As a passer he is not elite but he is good.  Mix that with his running game it makes a top ten qb when healthy .  I'm not saying he is amazing just more like towards the back end of top ten QBs .  His spot would in the 9 to 11 range which for his price is good. 

[coming on strong 661]

19 hours ago, Indyfan4life said:

I think if he can manage to begin throwing downfield and the defense not give up 21 points in the first half, teams will have to respect us a bit more and not load the box for runs.

What is strange to me is teams are stacking the box more this year then last year .  Philip is better then jacoby and Pascal was the colts number one wr last year for a while with all the Injuries.  Rivers can exploit that and get them to back off .

[Superman 37,555]

20 minutes ago, Thebrashandthebold said:

He is certainly a lot closer to it than Phillip Rivers and he has years to add to his numbers and perhaps more Super Bowl appearances. I just disagree with you. Rivers may be HoF but Cam has helped change the game and has an MVP and a Super Bowl appearance that Phillip does not have. That makes him a lock in my mind.

 

 

Kurt Warner had more accomplishments than Cam Newton has, in a less passer-friendly era, including two league MVPs, three SB appearances, a SB win and a SB MVP. And he had two incredible peaks, in which he elevated his team to dramatic heights. He had a decidedly better career than Newton.

 

And it took him three years to get voted in. Since then, the bar for being a HOFer at QB is moving much higher, as all time greats become eligible -- Brady, Brees, Manning. Even Eli is a controversial case, and he has twice as many yards as Cam, twice as many TDs, and two SB MVPs.

 

Cam Newton probably isn't done. He can pass Warner in most volume stats pretty easily, but he's not an efficient passer so completion percentage and passer rating won't be competitive. If Cam gets back to 2015 status and stays there for multiple years, then we can talk about him being a HOFer. 

 

If Cam retired now, he's not a HOFer. He'd never get in, not first ballot, not after three years, never. So calling him a surefire HOFer is wrong.

 

And Rivers doubles up all of Cam's stats, while being more efficient, and being a better passer for a much longer period of time. All Cam has over Rivers is one really good season. 

 

I'm not calling Rivers a future HOFer either. But he has a better case than Cam.

[chad72 13,500]

47 minutes ago, coming on strong said:

What is strange to me is teams are stacking the box more this year then last year .  Philip is better then jacoby and Pascal was the colts number one wr last year for a while with all the Injuries.  Rivers can exploit that and get them to back off .

 

Once he starts to look the way of pass catchers other than TY and spread it around, I think he will. Hopefully they have sorted out more passing game issues over the bye week.

[2006Coltsbestever 29,281]

51 minutes ago, Thebrashandthebold said:

He is certainly a lot closer to it than Phillip Rivers and he has years to add to his numbers and perhaps more Super Bowl appearances. I just disagree with you. Rivers may be HoF but Cam has helped change the game and has an MVP and a Super Bowl appearance that Phillip does not have. That makes him a lock in my mind.

 

He isn't a lock, read above, @Superman doesn't even think so. I don't either. He needs to have 4 or 5 more seasons with great stats to even be considered. He does have the 1 MVP, I give you that but 1 spectacular year doesn't get you in. Had he won the SB that year then you would have much better argument.

[Superman 37,555]

5 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Had he won the SB that year then you would have much better argument.

 

IMO, not really. 

 

The Kurt Warner comparison still works. Or Steve Young. Both had greater accomplishments and higher peaks, and played in a previous era. Adjust for the common era and both probably have 15-20K more yards and another hundred TDs. 

 

For a common era QB, Cam's production is average. Give him a boost for his rushing stats, and a boost for one really good season, but I still don't see that as a HOFer. And changing the outcome of one game doesn't do it for me, either. 

 

Even with two SBs, Eli is a question mark. The potential 2025 class looks pretty light -- Witten, Brees, Fitzgerald, Peterson, Gore, just some guys who would be Eli's competition if they had retired this season -- so he might be a first ballot guy, but it's going to be an interesting class.

[2006Coltsbestever 29,281]

Just now, Superman said:

 

IMO, not really. 

 

The Kurt Warner comparison still works. Or Steve Young. Both had greater accomplishments and higher peaks, and played in a previous era. Adjust for the common era and both probably have 15-20K more yards and another hundred TDs. 

 

For a common era QB, Cam's production is average. Give him a boost for his rushing stats, and a boost for one really good season, but I still don't see that as a HOFer. And changing the outcome of one game doesn't do it for me, either. 

 

Even with two SBs, Eli is a question mark. The potential 2025 class looks pretty light -- Witten, Brees, Fitzgerald, Peterson, Gore, just some guys who would be Eli's competition if they had retired this season -- so he might be a first ballot guy, but it's going to be an interesting class.

Great point actually but at least if he would have won a SB his argument would be more valid, JMO, and he didn't even do that. I don't look at Cam as a HOFamer as of now either. Eli I do, here is the reason, he and his team beat the greatest dynasty of all-time not once but twice in the SB. He was the QB that stopped an undefeated season. His career record he was a .500 QB but he still had good overall stats to help his case.

[Superman 37,555]

2 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Great point actually but at least if he would have won a SB his argument would be more valid, JMO, and he didn't even do that. I don't look at Cam as a HOFamer as of now either. Eli I do, here is the reason, he and his team beat the greatest dynasty of all-time not once but twice in the SB. He was the QB that stopped an undefeated season. His career record he was a .500 QB but he still had good overall stats to help his case.

 

The argument for Eli is volume stats and two SBs. I can argue against Eli as a HOFer -- he was never a top ten QB, his career record is the picture of average, and outside of those two SB runs his team never even won a playoff game. He was pretty bad in most of those other playoff games, as a matter of fact.

 

You could change the outcome of two of Eli's games and completely take him out of the HOF discussion. It really comes down to those two SBs. 

 

I think the story and impact is important when talking about HOFers, so beating the Pats is a legitimate part of Eli's legacy. 

 

Eli is a lot like Frank Gore. Gore was one of the best earlier in his career, but since then has just been a guy -- statistically, impact, big games, etc. But his volume stats put him near the top of a lot of lists. Unlike Eli, I think you can tell the story of the NFL without mentioning Gore, but RBs aren't putting up career numbers like his anymore, so I think he'll get in eventually just on volume. But I don't think I'd vote for him.

[PrincetonTiger 12,394]

1 hour ago, Thebrashandthebold said:

He is certainly a lot closer to it than Phillip Rivers and he has years to add to his numbers and perhaps more Super Bowl appearances. I just disagree with you. Rivers may be HoF but Cam has helped change the game and has an MVP and a Super Bowl appearance that Phillip does not have. That makes him a lock in my mind.

 

[Four2itus 4,671]

For a stretch for time, Cam had a better arm than Rivers has ever possessed when it comes to arm strength. Cam has for most of his career been a far better athlete than Rivers has ever been. 

 

But when it comes to quarterbacking a team, Rivers has been better for most of his career, and I do not believe that Cam will close the gap. 

[Korey 65]

How about none of them?

[chad72 13,500]

Philip Rivers is telling us like Randy Quaid in Independence Day “Boyzzz I’m backkkk...”  

[Shafty138 1,972]

After Hilton and even Dulin..... Good God we can't keep our 5-6 Wideout healthy.... Went out today, I hope they reactivate Fountain and try to bring in someone at WR, even if it's just a warm body.

[chad72 13,500]

2 minutes ago, Shafty138 said:

After Hilton and even Dulin..... Good God we can't keep our 5-6 Wideout healthy.... Went out today, I hope they reactivate Fountain and try to bring in someone at WR, even if it's just a warm body.

We need healthy bodies, seems like anyone would do at this point.

[GoColts8818 11,123]

Safe to say Rivers has righted the ship that last two weeks.  Let’s not forget he tends to get better in November and December over the course of his career.  Colts picked the right QB of these three.  The only option I think you could argue for over Rivers that was out there was Brady.  I don’t think the Colts were willing to let Brady have as much say in personal moves as he appeared to want.

[chad72 13,500]

Bengals just beat Titans folks, we’re in the drivers seat if we take care of them 

[James 1,341]

Only a fool would take Cam or Dalton over Rivers.

 

 

[BlueCollarColts 1,576]

Rivers looks miles above both Dalton and Newton right now.

[GoColts8818 11,123]

2 minutes ago, BlueCollarColts said:

Rivers looks miles above both Dalton and Newton right now.

Because he is ;)

[2006Coltsbestever 29,281]

1 minute ago, GoColts8818 said:

Because he is ;)

Pats lose again, without Tom they look bad!

[csmopar 10,882]

1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Pats lose again, without Tom they look bad!

So the question of whether it was Brady or Hoodie may soon get answered

[2006Coltsbestever 29,281]

2 minutes ago, csmopar said:

So the question of whether it was Brady or Hoodie may soon get answered

I still think Hoodie is probably the GOAT but you at least need a QB that can be good, Cam isn't it. JMO. If he had Rivers he would be 5-2 instead of 2-5 IMO.

[csmopar 10,882]

3 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I still think Hoodie is probably the GOAT but you at least need a QB that can be good, Cam isn't it. JMO. If he had Rivers he would be 5-2 instead of 2-5 IMO.

What if the jets do something stupid like win 2-3 games and New England looses out, granted there’s other 2 win teams right now in the running but could you imagine if New England lands Trevor Lawrence 

[Superman 37,555]

This is a gap year for the Pats. 

 

Brady has been better the last couple weeks though. Really good last week. 

[PrNum1 108]

Those that wanted Dalton or Newton must now confess and Repent of their sins.

 

Repent and bend the knee before Rivers now !!!

 

[2006Coltsbestever 29,281]

38 minutes ago, csmopar said:

What if the jets do something stupid like win 2-3 games and New England looses out, granted there’s other 2 win teams right now in the running but could you imagine if New England lands Trevor Lawrence 

I can't hoodie tanking but if he had Lawrence that would be scary. 

[chad72 13,500]

37 minutes ago, Superman said:

This is a gap year for the Pats. 

 

Brady has been better the last couple weeks though. Really good last week. 

 

It is a combo of lots of things.

 

Star LB Hightower, Star Safety Patrick Chung and key OT Marcus Cannon all opted out due to Covid before the beginning of the season. Their team was top heavy in cap and depth. Once those opted out, Belichick's bad drafting caught up to him.

[2006Coltsbestever 29,281]

38 minutes ago, Superman said:

This is a gap year for the Pats. 

 

Brady has been better the last couple weeks though. Really good last week. 

Coaching is key and a huge part of winning but I have always believed without a QB that is at least above average a team isn't winning anything unless they have a defense like the 85 Bears or 2000 Ravens. Now everyone knows why Ballard went out and got Rivers and payed that money for him. I have defended JB a lot in here as you know but he is no Rivers. Rivers is still good IMO, we are making the playoffs this time around at 5-2.

[King Colt 1,929]

Newton's future  is as a backup if that.

[IinD 3,208]

1 hour ago, James said:

Only a fool would take Cam or Dalton over Rivers.

 

 

That's not nice to say, you've offended the majority of our board.. Lol

[Pelt 687]

1 hour ago, csmopar said:

So the question of whether it was Brady or Hoodie may soon get answered

Ya know, that whole thing about whether it was Brady or Belichick always had me wondering more about McDaniels for some strange reason. He seems to be flying under the radar and I think he's choking it a little bit. Yeah, I know the Pats have no weapons on offense, but still...

 

I'm glad he stayed right where he is.

[GoColts8818 11,123]

14 minutes ago, IinD said:

That's not nice to say, you've offended the majority of our board.. Lol

Not the majority a very vocal minority that has been very quiet the last two games who will probably show up in force the next time the Colts lose.

[krunk 12,871]

Cam doesnt look good, but they have no talent either

[PrincetonTiger 12,394]

3 minutes ago, GoColts8818 said:

Not the majority a very vocal minority that has been very quiet the last two games who will probably show up in force the next time the Colts lose.