Jump to content
Indianapolis Colts
Indianapolis Colts Fan Forum

Still want Cam Newton and Andy Dalton over Philip Rivers?


Recommended Posts

47 minutes ago, Thebrashandthebold said:

 

I would take Cam over Rivers at anytime in his career including right now. The Patriots don't have many weapons on offense anymore and Cam is carrying everything. He missed two weeks of practice as did most of the team with Covid-19. He will be back and he will be back 100%. There is nothing wrong with his arm. There is nothing wrong with his legs and certainly nothing wrong with his legs. Cam Newton is a sure fire Hall of Famer not a borderline selection like Rivers. Now add that Rivers cost $24 million dollars more this year. Yeah, I take Cam and it isn't even close.

 

200.gif

 

:lol:

 

In what world in Cam a sure fire HOFer?

  • Like 3
  • Haha 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 131
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

The grass is always greener on the other side, folks.   Philip may not be perfect, he may make a few decisions that may cost a game or two over the season but he is still the best option for

Kurt Warner had more accomplishments than Cam Newton has, in a less passer-friendly era, including two league MVPs, three SB appearances, a SB win and a SB MVP. And he had two incredible peaks, in whi

No he isn't.

5 hours ago, coming on strong said:

Weapons matter though look at brady this year .last year he was bottom 5 in a lot of passing stats . Cam never had elite weapons . You don't win mvp being terrible.  Also winning rookie of the year .  Didnt luck have below 60 percent a couple of years with a ton of picks ?  I believe luck is elite he just had a bad line and weapons those years 

So Greg Olson  wasn't elite? 

How about the few years he played with Steve Smith? 

Kelvin Benjamin was pretty good too. 

DeAngelo Williams and Johnathon Stewart were also elite weapons. 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/26/2020 at 12:53 AM, crazycolt1 said:

I would rather have a team that wants to win over a team that has a losers mentality. 

Tank=loser mentality

I am not ralking  bout tankin per se.  I just want this team to make a decsion about their future qb. The only thing that signing Rivers did was ensuring mediocrity and delaying the need

to draft the future . I think Ballard drinks his own kool aid. He truly beleives he has built a Superbowl talented team and all they needed was a qb. He was wrong and I said before the year began, I didnt buy the hype.

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Thebrashandthebold said:

 

I would take Cam over Rivers at anytime in his career including right now. The Patriots don't have many weapons on offense anymore and Cam is carrying everything. He missed two weeks of practice as did most of the team with Covid-19. He will be back and he will be back 100%. There is nothing wrong with his arm. There is nothing wrong with his legs and certainly nothing wrong with his legs. Cam Newton is a sure fire Hall of Famer not a borderline selection like Rivers. Now add that Rivers cost $24 million dollars more this year. Yeah, I take Cam and it isn't even close.

 

No way is Cam a HOFamer unless he puts up huge numbers over the next 5 years or wins a SB, he isn't getting in. He had 1 spectacular season which was in 2015 but stunk in the SB. Rivers has 60,000 yards passing and would've made a SB in 2007 had it not been for Tom Brady. He lost in the AFC Title Game.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

No he isn't.

He is certainly a lot closer to it than Phillip Rivers and he has years to add to his numbers and perhaps more Super Bowl appearances. I just disagree with you. Rivers may be HoF but Cam has helped change the game and has an MVP and a Super Bowl appearance that Phillip does not have. That makes him a lock in my mind.

 

  • Haha 1
  • Confused 5
Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

So Greg Olson  wasn't elite? 

How about the few years he played with Steve Smith? 

Kelvin Benjamin was pretty good too. 

DeAngelo Williams and Johnathon Stewart were also elite weapons. 

 

 

Steve Smith was old by the time cam got there .  Greg Olson is really solid but I wouldn't say he is elite like Gronkowski.  Greg Olson is more like a Jack doyle who was a pro bowler also . As a whole his weapons were average . Give him what brady has now and I believe he will do great.      

 

As a passer he is not elite but he is good.  Mix that with his running game it makes a top ten qb when healthy .  I'm not saying he is amazing just more like towards the back end of top ten QBs .  His spot would in the 9 to 11 range which for his price is good. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Indyfan4life said:

I think if he can manage to begin throwing downfield and the defense not give up 21 points in the first half, teams will have to respect us a bit more and not load the box for runs.

What is strange to me is teams are stacking the box more this year then last year .  Philip is better then jacoby and Pascal was the colts number one wr last year for a while with all the Injuries.  Rivers can exploit that and get them to back off .

Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Thebrashandthebold said:

He is certainly a lot closer to it than Phillip Rivers and he has years to add to his numbers and perhaps more Super Bowl appearances. I just disagree with you. Rivers may be HoF but Cam has helped change the game and has an MVP and a Super Bowl appearance that Phillip does not have. That makes him a lock in my mind.

 

 

Kurt Warner had more accomplishments than Cam Newton has, in a less passer-friendly era, including two league MVPs, three SB appearances, a SB win and a SB MVP. And he had two incredible peaks, in which he elevated his team to dramatic heights. He had a decidedly better career than Newton.

 

And it took him three years to get voted in. Since then, the bar for being a HOFer at QB is moving much higher, as all time greats become eligible -- Brady, Brees, Manning. Even Eli is a controversial case, and he has twice as many yards as Cam, twice as many TDs, and two SB MVPs.

 

Cam Newton probably isn't done. He can pass Warner in most volume stats pretty easily, but he's not an efficient passer so completion percentage and passer rating won't be competitive. If Cam gets back to 2015 status and stays there for multiple years, then we can talk about him being a HOFer. 

 

If Cam retired now, he's not a HOFer. He'd never get in, not first ballot, not after three years, never. So calling him a surefire HOFer is wrong.

 

And Rivers doubles up all of Cam's stats, while being more efficient, and being a better passer for a much longer period of time. All Cam has over Rivers is one really good season. 

 

I'm not calling Rivers a future HOFer either. But he has a better case than Cam.

  • Like 8
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, coming on strong said:

What is strange to me is teams are stacking the box more this year then last year .  Philip is better then jacoby and Pascal was the colts number one wr last year for a while with all the Injuries.  Rivers can exploit that and get them to back off .

 

Once he starts to look the way of pass catchers other than TY and spread it around, I think he will. Hopefully they have sorted out more passing game issues over the bye week.

Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, Thebrashandthebold said:

He is certainly a lot closer to it than Phillip Rivers and he has years to add to his numbers and perhaps more Super Bowl appearances. I just disagree with you. Rivers may be HoF but Cam has helped change the game and has an MVP and a Super Bowl appearance that Phillip does not have. That makes him a lock in my mind.

 

He isn't a lock, read above, @Superman doesn't even think so. I don't either. He needs to have 4 or 5 more seasons with great stats to even be considered. He does have the 1 MVP, I give you that but 1 spectacular year doesn't get you in. Had he won the SB that year then you would have much better argument.

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Had he won the SB that year then you would have much better argument.

 

IMO, not really. 

 

The Kurt Warner comparison still works. Or Steve Young. Both had greater accomplishments and higher peaks, and played in a previous era. Adjust for the common era and both probably have 15-20K more yards and another hundred TDs. 

 

For a common era QB, Cam's production is average. Give him a boost for his rushing stats, and a boost for one really good season, but I still don't see that as a HOFer. And changing the outcome of one game doesn't do it for me, either. 

 

Even with two SBs, Eli is a question mark. The potential 2025 class looks pretty light -- Witten, Brees, Fitzgerald, Peterson, Gore, just some guys who would be Eli's competition if they had retired this season -- so he might be a first ballot guy, but it's going to be an interesting class.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Superman said:

 

IMO, not really. 

 

The Kurt Warner comparison still works. Or Steve Young. Both had greater accomplishments and higher peaks, and played in a previous era. Adjust for the common era and both probably have 15-20K more yards and another hundred TDs. 

 

For a common era QB, Cam's production is average. Give him a boost for his rushing stats, and a boost for one really good season, but I still don't see that as a HOFer. And changing the outcome of one game doesn't do it for me, either. 

 

Even with two SBs, Eli is a question mark. The potential 2025 class looks pretty light -- Witten, Brees, Fitzgerald, Peterson, Gore, just some guys who would be Eli's competition if they had retired this season -- so he might be a first ballot guy, but it's going to be an interesting class.

Great point actually but at least if he would have won a SB his argument would be more valid, JMO, and he didn't even do that. I don't look at Cam as a HOFamer as of now either. Eli I do, here is the reason, he and his team beat the greatest dynasty of all-time not once but twice in the SB. He was the QB that stopped an undefeated season. His career record he was a .500 QB but he still had good overall stats to help his case.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Great point actually but at least if he would have won a SB his argument would be more valid, JMO, and he didn't even do that. I don't look at Cam as a HOFamer as of now either. Eli I do, here is the reason, he and his team beat the greatest dynasty of all-time not once but twice in the SB. He was the QB that stopped an undefeated season. His career record he was a .500 QB but he still had good overall stats to help his case.

 

The argument for Eli is volume stats and two SBs. I can argue against Eli as a HOFer -- he was never a top ten QB, his career record is the picture of average, and outside of those two SB runs his team never even won a playoff game. He was pretty bad in most of those other playoff games, as a matter of fact.

 

You could change the outcome of two of Eli's games and completely take him out of the HOF discussion. It really comes down to those two SBs. 

 

I think the story and impact is important when talking about HOFers, so beating the Pats is a legitimate part of Eli's legacy. 

 

Eli is a lot like Frank Gore. Gore was one of the best earlier in his career, but since then has just been a guy -- statistically, impact, big games, etc. But his volume stats put him near the top of a lot of lists. Unlike Eli, I think you can tell the story of the NFL without mentioning Gore, but RBs aren't putting up career numbers like his anymore, so I think he'll get in eventually just on volume. But I don't think I'd vote for him.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Thebrashandthebold said:

He is certainly a lot closer to it than Phillip Rivers and he has years to add to his numbers and perhaps more Super Bowl appearances. I just disagree with you. Rivers may be HoF but Cam has helped change the game and has an MVP and a Super Bowl appearance that Phillip does not have. That makes him a lock in my mind.

 

Jennifer Lawrence Reaction GIF

Link to post
Share on other sites

For a stretch for time, Cam had a better arm than Rivers has ever possessed when it comes to arm strength. Cam has for most of his career been a far better athlete than Rivers has ever been. 

 

But when it comes to quarterbacking a team, Rivers has been better for most of his career, and I do not believe that Cam will close the gap. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Shafty138 said:

After Hilton and even Dulin..... Good God we can't keep our 5-6 Wideout healthy.... Went out today, I hope they reactivate Fountain and try to bring in someone at WR, even if it's just a warm body.


We need healthy bodies, seems like anyone would do at this point.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Safe to say Rivers has righted the ship that last two weeks.  Let’s not forget he tends to get better in November and December over the course of his career.  Colts picked the right QB of these three.  The only option I think you could argue for over Rivers that was out there was Brady.  I don’t think the Colts were willing to let Brady have as much say in personal moves as he appeared to want.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I still think Hoodie is probably the GOAT but you at least need a QB that can be good, Cam isn't it. JMO. If he had Rivers he would be 5-2 instead of 2-5 IMO.

What if the jets do something stupid like win 2-3 games and New England looses out, granted there’s other 2 win teams right now in the running but could you imagine if New England lands Trevor Lawrence 

Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, csmopar said:

What if the jets do something stupid like win 2-3 games and New England looses out, granted there’s other 2 win teams right now in the running but could you imagine if New England lands Trevor Lawrence 

I can't hoodie tanking but if he had Lawrence that would be scary. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, Superman said:

This is a gap year for the Pats. 

 

Brady has been better the last couple weeks though. Really good last week. 

 

It is a combo of lots of things.

 

Star LB Hightower, Star Safety Patrick Chung and key OT Marcus Cannon all opted out due to Covid before the beginning of the season. Their team was top heavy in cap and depth. Once those opted out, Belichick's bad drafting caught up to him.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Superman said:

This is a gap year for the Pats. 

 

Brady has been better the last couple weeks though. Really good last week. 

Coaching is key and a huge part of winning but I have always believed without a QB that is at least above average a team isn't winning anything unless they have a defense like the 85 Bears or 2000 Ravens. Now everyone knows why Ballard went out and got Rivers and payed that money for him. I have defended JB a lot in here as you know but he is no Rivers. Rivers is still good IMO, we are making the playoffs this time around at 5-2.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, csmopar said:

So the question of whether it was Brady or Hoodie may soon get answered

Ya know, that whole thing about whether it was Brady or Belichick always had me wondering more about McDaniels for some strange reason. He seems to be flying under the radar and I think he's choking it a little bit. Yeah, I know the Pats have no weapons on offense, but still...

 

I'm glad he stayed right where he is.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, IinD said:

That's not nice to say, you've offended the majority of our board.. Lol

Not the majority a very vocal minority that has been very quiet the last two games who will probably show up in force the next time the Colts lose.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.


  • Thread of the Week

  • Topics

  • Posts

    • I think Flus simply needs to blitz more to be honest. Between the lack of blitzing and stunting, and our soft zone, I just can't envision our pass rush getting a lot better even with an upgrade at DE. Not blitzing/stunting let's the OL settle in, and makes their jobs much easier. And playing soft zone allows easy pass after easy pass, and almost makes it impossible for coverage sacks. Just not sure why we stay so conservative.    On RO, I'd have to look at those last 4-5 opponents last year. If he played at a high level all year that's one thing, but he played mediocre for 4.5-4.75 years, and looks fantastic only in the last 4-5 games? The situation just needs more context and digging.    
    • No doubt any move is a gamble of some kind or another. If its an older guy, is the player injury prone or on the downhill side of his career? If a younger guy, will he still perform with serious coin in his pocket for the first time? But in the end, you have to look at recent production. If the guy has a good rep for being a hard worker and improved his play such that he's become an impact player, he's worth the gamble, IMO. Maybe not for a contract longer than 3 years, but I like taking a shot at an ascending talent.    More importantly, if you believe, as I do, that the defense HAS to get much better at rushing the passer, especially since our D coordinator seems to have a serious allergy to blitzing, then the push to find that missing piece has to take its place front and center over other needs. 
    • This kid could make things really interesting and turn that flat-butt 4-3 into something really special with corners who can press. The scheme could be really sneaky good with that personnel. 
    • I don't know who else we really need to have a bounce back year, especially on D.  Along our DL, we either need to bring back Houston and Autry or figure out how to replace them - but both had pretty solid years.  Lewis was better than he had been his first couple years.  Buckner was a stud and Stewart was solid.  Having Turay come back healthy and seeing Banogu improve would be helpful, but they both played so little last year and hadn't done enough previously to indicate last year was a 'down year'.  At LB, Leonard was a first-team all pro again and very solid.  Walker was solid but saw his snap count decrease and Oke had his ups and downs while seeing his snap count dramatically increase (as @EastStreet pointed out,  not only did his snaps go way up compared to his rookie year but the way he was used was different).  I doubt we see Walker back, so it'd be nice to see Oke improve for sure.  Then in the secondary we had solid play from Rhodes, Carrie, Willis and Moore for the most part.  Blackmon was solid (especially early on, but he seemed to digress as the year went on - IMO, to be expected as he was raw coming in and was coming off a knee injury, I don't think he was supposed to get near the snaps he did last year, but we know what happened with Hooker and sort of forced Blackmon into the fire).  RYS had a down year, but I don't see why he can't bounce back - he's got the physical traits - I tend to think he battled some mental demons after some P-Int penalties, and hopefully he can refine his technique some and come back strong.     In all, on the D, I think we're in good shape.  Keep in mind, it seemed like 'Flus called the D a bit differently last year than he had in earlier years here.  We are, overall (aside from Houston, Autry, Rhodes) very young on D.  We had a very weird off-season last year, which (IMO) is critical for younger guys.  I can't help but think it didn't help the likes of guys like RYS and Oke who saw their roles increase and change (IMO, OKe's change was more than a 'slight' change) between their rookie year and year 2.     On O, ideally we'll see solid QB play from Wentz (I won't go as far as to saying he needs a 'bounce back' year as he hasn't been in Indy before and it sounds like there was a lot of toxicity in Philly, hopefully all he needs in a change of scenery and a reunion with Reich).  Our OL was solid, so as long as we can replace AC at LT I think we'll be OK there.  We had pretty consistent play from Hines and Wilkins throughout the year and JT got dramatically better as the season wore on -- I think if those guys can start up where they left off, we're more than fine at RB.  TY didn't have his best year, but he's be declining for about 3 years now, so if we bring him back, all we can do is hope he stays healthy and I think we'll be in OK shape.  Pittman missed some time with his leg compartment syndrome, but was solid down the stretch, so I don't think we need him to 'bounce back', just continue on his trajectory and he's gonna be solid.  Pascal was solid and I think we've pretty much seen his ceiling, so he just needs to stay solid.  It would be sweet to see Campbell and/or Patmon to emerge, but don't think we need them to 'bounce back' as we've never gotten high level results from them to begin with.     Then on STs, we were pretty solid all around.  Would like to see Blankenship add a bit more umphf to his kicks, but he was solid and Sanchez was solid punting.  The coverage and return units were solid overall.   So really, I think we need a comeback or bounce back year from RYS and maybe Oke... but overall, I don't think we need a 'bunch of them.'       I agree, pretty much  have to temper expectations on Speed being from a small school.  He did really improve on STs last year and he got his praise any time Ballard or any coaches spoke about him.  I get the feeling Ballard and staff are willing to use patience with project players (Ballard states that fairly regularly).  With Oke, Walker, Leonard and then Franklin who has more playing experience at LB - I don't think there was really much need to rush Speed into an LB role last year.  He got plenty of ST snaps and did well there, hopefully boosting his confidence that he can play at NFL level while still refining his LB technique in practices and the film room.     While I would rather see guys like Adams and Glasgow on STs - I don't think it is terrible to have them on the roster primarily as STers but being our 5th and 6th ranked LBs on the depth chart as well.  Meaning, if we went into the season with Leonard, Oke, Speed and Franklin as our top 4 with Adams and Glasgow as STers but listed as 5 and 6 on depth chart, I don't think it'd be the worst thing (especially considering we predominantly play with only 2 LBers on the field).  So, sure it'd be nice to bring in a mid-late round draft pick or sign a decent FA for fairly cheap, but I'd rather see us dishing out money to bring in a solid LT, a playmaker at TE (and maybe WR), retain Rhodes, ensure the DL was solid (either by bringing back Houston and Autry or by getting a guy like Bud Dupree/JJ Watt/etc.), and add OL depth.  In otherwords, regardless of if we bring Walker back or not, I don't think LB is a top 5 position of concern right now.   I don't think Walker is going to command a ton, but he was 15th in the NFL in tackles in 2018 (124), tied for 28th (105) in 2019 and in the top 50 in 2020 (92).  He's a pretty productive player and a solid one - so he's going to demand significantly more than he was getting as a 5th round pick on his rookie contract.  And yes, he definitely wants to play more and I think his biggest issue here is his lack of athleticism.  You're right, he'll probably play more in a 3-4 D and he will likely be offered more money by a team where he'll play a lot than what Ballard will offer him.    See the last line from Ballard in this article:  https://www.colts.com/news/chris-ballard-philip-rivers-ty-hilton-xavier-rhodes-2020-season-press-conference (Ballard on Linebacker Anthony Walker: "I have a special relationship with Anthony Walker. Selfless. Team guy. Rare leader. I hope he gets into coaching one day or scouting. Mark my words on this: if Anthony Walker gets into coaching, he will be a head football coach in the National Football League. And if he gets into scouting, he'll be a general manager. He's brilliant — absolutely brilliant, and he's made of the right stuff. I know Anthony wants to play more. We value Anthony. We'll see how it works out. I want good for Anthony."   My guess is Walker is gone.  
  • Members

×
×
  • Create New...