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29 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Not really, everyone knew he was bad in the game, but after several seasons of falling short and finally getting a ring for Cowher, no one cared. 

I know you are one who doesn't pin wins and losses on QB's but I know several Pitt fans and at that time they were saying 1-0 Ben over Manning. It is just how it is. 

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You already said no one can tell you different, which means you won't listen to anyone else, but I'm going to say this anyway.   This is really dumb.    It's true that black QBs ge

Yes he even said it in 2018. He didn’t like him as well. 

And no way in hell JB overcomes a 21 hole the D put us in.

1 hour ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I know you are one who doesn't pin wins and losses on QB's but I know several Pitt fans and at that time they were saying 1-0 Ben over Manning. It is just how it is. 

I think I heard Troy Aikman's HS team went winless, but I do know for sure that they weren't any good.

 

QB play can be championship level without a championship.  It's just the narrowminded and televised blowhards like Skip Bayless who refuse to admit so.  

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2 hours ago, Imgrandojji said:

Brissett actually had us at the same record last year, so Rivers hasn't really been an improvement unless he can avoid the second half falloff that happened to Brissett.  Quite frankly, I'm on board with the idea of giving Brissett some chances if Rivers keeps turning the ball over this much.   But that should come as a surprise to exactly 0 people.

 

I'm just thinking that come playoff time the good teams are REALLY gonna punish us if Rivers is still throwing up 50 50 balls.  There's a reason this guy has never taken a team to the promised land and that reason begins with "turn" and ends with "overs."

 

I wouldn't want to face any of the Ravens Chiefs or 49ers with Rivers under center right now because you can't give these teams the extra possessions Rivers *will* give them and expect to win. 

 

The best way to beat those teams is the way we did it with Brissett  against KC, last year, protect the ball, control the time of possession pressure the star QB and limit turnovers.  Do any of you actually think that Rivers is the best guy to play that style?

 

I'd actually rather trust Brissett to Blake Bortles his way into a deep run rather than turning the ball over to a guy who hasn't been dep since 2005.  Even given Brissett's limited throwing ability the ability to control the turnover game still gives him an advantage.

Rivers QB record - 127 wins 103 losses

Brissett QB record - 12 wins  20 losses

 

TD % 

Rivers - 5.2%

Brissett - 3.2%

 

INT %

Rivers - 2.6%

Brissett - 1.3%

 

Completion %

Rivers - 64.8%

Brissett - 59.9%

 

Sack %

Rivers - 5.5%

Brissett - 8.1%

 

QB rating

Rivers - 95.0

Brissett - 84.5

 

Yards per game

Rivers - 260.1

Brissett - 161.5

 

Putting all these stats together tells me that Rivers is the better QB.   When I add in my eye test, I come to a complete decision that Rivers is the better QB now.   It's not by a huge margin but Rivers IS the better QB at this time.   

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1 minute ago, Myles said:

Rivers QB record - 127 wins 103 losses

Brissett QB record - 12 wins  20 losses

 

TD % 

Rivers - 5.2%

Brissett - 3.2%

 

INT %

Rivers - 2.6%

Brissett - 1.3%

 

Completion %

Rivers - 64.8%

Brissett - 59.9%

 

Sack %

Rivers - 5.5%

Brissett - 8.1%

 

QB rating

Rivers - 95.0

Brissett - 84.5

 

Yards per game

Rivers - 260.1

Brissett - 161.5

 

Putting all these stats together tells me that Rivers is the better QB.   When I add in my eye test, I come to a complete decision that Rivers is the better QB now.   It's not by a huge margin but Rivers IS the better QB at this time.   

And no way in hell JB overcomes a 21 hole the D put us in.

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13 minutes ago, Nickster said:

I think I heard Troy Aikman's HS team went winless, but I do know for sure that they weren't any good.

 

QB play can be championship level without a championship.  It's just the narrowminded and televised blowhards like Skip Bayless who refuse to admit so.  

I agree.  they have already endorsed Eli Manning for the HOF.   He's got a career record of 117 wins and 117 losses.  Completion % of 60.  He was never thought of as a top 10 QB in the league.  

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On 10/20/2020 at 5:02 PM, a06cc said:

Yes he even said it in 2018. He didn’t like him as well. 

 

That's not what he said at all.

 

He said he was jealous and resentful of JB winning over his teammates with his fun/happy attitude.

 

Never said he didn't like him, and never said he was afraid of losing his job to JB.

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23 hours ago, a06cc said:

I personally believe it’s because he is African American.

 

17 hours ago, a06cc said:

It’s because he’s African American. No one can tell me different.

 

16 hours ago, a06cc said:

He is African American so some of you wouldn’t understand.

 

Ok... are you going to play this card both ways?

 

On one hand, he wasn't given opportunities to keep his QB1 job, and was replaced because he's black, according to you.

 

On the other hand, he WAS given the opportunity TWICE to be QB1 for the Colts, when the Colts could have given that opportunity to a white QB.  He was embraced by the organization and loved by his teammates.  He had many supporters in the fanbase (including me) until it became very clear that he isn't the playmaker you need in the NFL.  He was retained at a very high price to be the primary backup, and has actually played this year even though Rivers isn't injured.

 

Were those opportunities, compensation, embracement, support, and love given to JB because he's black, or in spite of him being black?  Or maybe his race has absolutely nothing to do with it, and everything to do with his physical ability and his outstanding personality and temperament...  :thinking:

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5 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Just like paying Andrew all the money when he left lol. Not a biggie. Moving on.

 

I wonder if Irsay might have been thinking Luck might comeback and paying him all the money   made it much easier to "navigate" the procedure that would follow ?

 

Anyway ... as you say .. Brissett is a huge favorite not to be a Colt next year and absolutely no indication Luck is reconsidering. 

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2 hours ago, Superman said:

 

It's the already paid signing bonus that was the issue. If you want a player to give money back, I don't think you should be able to keep their rights into perpetuity.

 

But the pending bonus was a different story, and I don't know what the rules were on that one. Uncharted territory, as far as I know.

 

 

I didn't see the back and forth on this before I sent my last post. 

 

Anyway , you are correct , it was a return of signing bonus money that was what the Colts could have gone after. I also agree that if team tries to recover "paid money" , they should sever any ties to that contract .

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3 hours ago, Superman said:

 

That's true if you judge QBs based on the team's win/loss record and nothing else.

it's also just plain true.  We're looking to Rivers to have the team in a better than Brissett did, and in that scenario, wins and losses are way more important than countin' stats.  Because Rivers can pass for a lot of yards and it won't make a difference if this many of his passes go to a guy in the other uniform.

 

Brissett was riding high according to most of the fanbase at this point last year.  In order to really outdo Brissett Rivers has to do one thing.  NOT fall off a cliff in the second half and send the team in a tailspin from #2-3 seed all the way out of the playoff picture.

 

the fact is that irregardless of HOW the wins happen, either Brissett's lower scoring possession style or Rivers' high stakes method, at the end of the day what it really comes down to is how you execute a handful of key plays.  If your personnel execute those plays correctly and you play to what your strengths are, you'll win more than you lose, and if not, you don't.    

 

In any given season at least 10 games are going to come down to one play.   Your win loss record is going to reflect how well you did in those key moments.  And frankly I trust a possession style team to execute those moments more consistently than a high rolling offense like Rivers favors.  and I fully trust Rivers to make decisions in those moments that don't just set us back but take us completely out of games.  He already did that once against the Browns. 

 

So it's not so much Brissett I favor, it's the style of football Brissett forces us to play.  I think in the long run, possession football is more likely to create consistently good results.  Ownership disagrees, I think they're trying to go back to the Manning era but Rivers is no Manning and excessive  picks are the obvious result if trying to pretend he is.

 

it's a question of style and no one approach is right or wrong as long as you have the personnel and the game plan and the ability to execute on adjustments to make that style work..  But I despise the boom and bust of high rolling offense when not matched by the superior talent of a guy like Rodgers, Brady or Manning.  And Rivers is not on the same level of any of those 3.  Never was, and certainly isn't likely to be at his current age.  This style will bite us in the butt the same way it usually did to Favre's Packers or Bledsoe's Patriots/Bills/Cowboys. And those teams were notorious for ALMOST being relevant. 

 

Bottom line I think Rivers is a dead end and if Brissett isn't your guy I wish we'd gone in another direction entirely.

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2 hours ago, Myles said:

Rivers QB record - 127 wins 103 losses

Brissett QB record - 12 wins  20 losses

 

TD % 

Rivers - 5.2%

Brissett - 3.2%

 

INT %

Rivers - 2.6%

Brissett - 1.3%

 

Completion %

Rivers - 64.8%

Brissett - 59.9%

 

Sack %

Rivers - 5.5%

Brissett - 8.1%

 

QB rating

Rivers - 95.0

Brissett - 84.5

 

Yards per game

Rivers - 260.1

Brissett - 161.5

 

Putting all these stats together tells me that Rivers is the better QB.   When I add in my eye test, I come to a complete decision that Rivers is the better QB now.   It's not by a huge margin but Rivers IS the better QB at this time.   

It's an apples to coconuts comparison though, you're comparing a guy in his prime to a 41 year old who fell off a cliff last year.  I'm not convinced that Rivers' overall stats are at all relevant to what he is at the moment.

 

 So far Rivers is holding his own pretty well but it's fair to point out that the styles the two quarterbacks play favor different stats too.  The big one that holds Brissett back is not yards and touchdowns but passing accuracy and sack rate.  Those are the things that prevented him from keeping his team in games in the second half when he began to struggle with mobility.

 

Not having a reliable wide receiver not named Zach Pascal didn't help.  And no, TY wasn't reliable last year, mostly due to injury

 

Brissett plays a completely different brand of football than Rivers so straight up comparing a yardage guy to a possession guy doesn't actually make any sense of all.

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17 minutes ago, Imgrandojji said:

it's also just plain true.  We're looking to Rivers to have the team in a better than Brissett did, and in that scenario, wins and losses are way more important than countin' stats. 

 

False.

 

The quality of the QB play isn't based on whether the team wins or loses. Doesn't matter how you try to frame this discussion, that will never be true.

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6 hours ago, dw49 said:

 

I wonder if Irsay might have been thinking Luck might comeback and paying him all the money   made it much easier to "navigate" the procedure that would follow ?

 

Anyway ... as you say .. Brissett is a huge favorite not to be a Colt next year and absolutely no indication Luck is reconsidering. 

yea, as sup and I were discussing, it's just a lot to pay for dibs.

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5 hours ago, Imgrandojji said:

it's also just plain true.  We're looking to Rivers to have the team in a better than Brissett did, and in that scenario, wins and losses are way more important than countin' stats.  Because Rivers can pass for a lot of yards and it won't make a difference if this many of his passes go to a guy in the other uniform.

 

Brissett was riding high according to most of the fanbase at this point last year.  In order to really outdo Brissett Rivers has to do one thing.  NOT fall off a cliff in the second half and send the team in a tailspin from #2-3 seed all the way out of the playoff picture.

 

the fact is that irregardless of HOW the wins happen, either Brissett's lower scoring possession style or Rivers' high stakes method, at the end of the day what it really comes down to is how you execute a handful of key plays.  If your personnel execute those plays correctly and you play to what your strengths are, you'll win more than you lose, and if not, you don't.    

 

In any given season at least 10 games are going to come down to one play.   Your win loss record is going to reflect how well you did in those key moments.  And frankly I trust a possession style team to execute those moments more consistently than a high rolling offense like Rivers favors.  and I fully trust Rivers to make decisions in those moments that don't just set us back but take us completely out of games.  He already did that once against the Browns. 

 

So it's not so much Brissett I favor, it's the style of football Brissett forces us to play.  I think in the long run, possession football is more likely to create consistently good results.  Ownership disagrees, I think they're trying to go back to the Manning era but Rivers is no Manning and excessive  picks are the obvious result if trying to pretend he is.

 

it's a question of style and no one approach is right or wrong as long as you have the personnel and the game plan and the ability to execute on adjustments to make that style work..  But I despise the boom and bust of high rolling offense when not matched by the superior talent of a guy like Rodgers, Brady or Manning.  And Rivers is not on the same level of any of those 3.  Never was, and certainly isn't likely to be at his current age.  This style will bite us in the butt the same way it usually did to Favre's Packers or Bledsoe's Patriots/Bills/Cowboys. And those teams were notorious for ALMOST being relevant. 

 

Bottom line I think Rivers is a dead end and if Brissett isn't your guy I wish we'd gone in another direction entirely.

The Colts have the worst you in the NFL, so that style prolly ain’t gonna work.

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Jim Sorgi made his money without ever having to wash his uniform. Brissett wants to play but on a junk team? Maybe he will progress this year and next to the point Reich will see him as the starter. Who knows, way too early.

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6 hours ago, Imgrandojji said:

it's also just plain true.  We're looking to Rivers to have the team in a better than Brissett did, and in that scenario, wins and losses are way more important than countin' stats.  Because Rivers can pass for a lot of yards and it won't make a difference if this many of his passes go to a guy in the other uniform.

It's all an equation. W/Ls are an output of several factors. INTs are part of the equation. IIRC, Luck has near the same INT% as Rivers. There are a lot of really bad QBs that just don't throw INTs too.

6 hours ago, Imgrandojji said:

Brissett was riding high according to most of the fanbase at this point last year.  In order to really outdo Brissett Rivers has to do one thing.  NOT fall off a cliff in the second half and send the team in a tailspin from #2-3 seed all the way out of the playoff picture.

Many though, like yours truly didn't see Brissett riding high early. He had a few good games, but he also had some stinkers. Those stinkers don't disappear because of a few good games. Just like Rivers stinkers don't disappear after the Bengals game. One thing is pretty clear though. Rivers throws more INTs. The other thing that is crystal clear, is that Rivers is a lot better in many other facets. And we all know JB's chances of overcoming a 21 point deficit is pretty much nil. 

6 hours ago, Imgrandojji said:

the fact is that irregardless of HOW the wins happen, either Brissett's lower scoring possession style or Rivers' high stakes method, at the end of the day what it really comes down to is how you execute a handful of key plays.  If your personnel execute those plays correctly and you play to what your strengths are, you'll win more than you lose, and if not, you don't. 

It's more than just a handful of plays. Sure, a handful matter, but the other 90% matter too. There were more than a handful of plays where JB just couldn't get it done. You can't highlight the successful handful, and ignore all the negative. 

 

6 hours ago, Imgrandojji said:

  In any given season at least 10 games are going to come down to one play.   Your win loss record is going to reflect how well you did in those key moments.  And frankly I trust a possession style team to execute those moments more consistently than a high rolling offense like Rivers favors.  and I fully trust Rivers to make decisions in those moments that don't just set us back but take us completely out of games.  He already did that once against the Browns. 

Every third down play, every red zone play, is important. And every chunk play is important. This whole "one play" narrative is silly. It's only "one play" depending on what you did all the other plays.

6 hours ago, Imgrandojji said:

So it's not so much Brissett I favor, it's the style of football Brissett forces us to play.  I think in the long run, possession football is more likely to create consistently good results.  Ownership disagrees, I think they're trying to go back to the Manning era but Rivers is no Manning and excessive  picks are the obvious result if trying to pretend he is.

If a QB forces you to play any style outside of your scheme, that's a bad thing. JB simply doesn't fit Reich's O. Reich's O relies on good reads and quick progressions, with an occasional chunk shot. JB struggles biggly with reads and progressions. It's as simply as that. He's isn't a good fit. If you don't want that style, you should be wanting a new coach.

6 hours ago, Imgrandojji said:

 

it's a question of style and no one approach is right or wrong as long as you have the personnel and the game plan and the ability to execute on adjustments to make that style work..  But I despise the boom and bust of high rolling offense when not matched by the superior talent of a guy like Rodgers, Brady or Manning.  And Rivers is not on the same level of any of those 3.  Never was, and certainly isn't likely to be at his current age.  This style will bite us in the butt the same way it usually did to Favre's Packers or Bledsoe's Patriots/Bills/Cowboys. And those teams were notorious for ALMOST being relevant. 

 

Bottom line I think Rivers is a dead end and if Brissett isn't your guy I wish we'd gone in another direction entirely.

Rivers was arguably the best available that fit Reich's scheme. It's probably easier to try and limit River's INTs, than to try and get Brissett to do things he's never been able to do. If you think JB would make us "relevant", not sure what to tell you. Sure, it might take Rivers getting on a good roll to take us to a high level, but the ceiling is simply higher and chances better of a playoff peak with Rivers. 

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I think JB will get a shot to compete somewhere...having Ballard and Reich as a reference certainly doesn't hurt his chances. But I don't know how realistic that chance will be. I could see him in a Tyrod Taylor situation.

 

I can't imagine any team signing him to be the guy...ala Teddy. ..especially since the market will have other options available and will likely be depressed because of the cap decrease.

 

It's hard to imagine a scenario where he is back in Indy...despite how much they like him. It just doesn't make a lot of sense for any party...unless Rivers is gone and he's willing to back up Eason. But that's assuming that Eason is even Plan A...and I bet he's not.

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