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16 hours ago, coming on strong said:

rings do matter though .   if eli manning has zero rings does he get into HOF?    Its only one aspect though as i said in my other post .   dan marino is in because of the records and mvps.  My point was if you a player is not a legendary player and is borderline hall of fame then rings matter .   With Eli the rings will push him over the edge , same with rivers  i said rivers is ranked in my opinion 6 out of 32 during his prime a ring pushes him even and makes him tied with big ben for 5th making with a first ballard pick .  

 

Eli also won two SB MVPs and beat Brady both times.  That is kinda huge.

 

15 hours ago, CR91 said:

I don't know. I kinda put him in the Kenny Anderson category. Great QB with stats to back it up, but no or little success in the post season. He'll get in, but not before Eli and Ben

 

Well Eli will be eligible at least 1 year earlier than Rivers, so highly unlikely Rivers beats him in.  Rivers has better career stats than both of them, more pro-bowls than both of them, in 2008 Rivers was the NFL passing TD leader and passer rating leader, in 2010 he lead the league in passing yards, in 2013 he lead the league in completion percentage.  Big Ben 2x had the most passing yards in his career, but never close to best completion percentage, TDs or completion percentage.  

 

As a side note, I think your Kenny Anderson comparison is a bit ridiculous - Rivers has >5% better career completion percentage, double the passing yards and TDs.

 

5 hours ago, indykmj said:

No. But regardless, he'll probably eventually be voted in.

 

If nothing else, his (likely) post football, media gig will allow him to further score points 

enough voters on the fence to get it done.

 

If Rivers does go into broadcasting, it should have absolutely nothing to do with him being voted into the HOF as a player.  

 

________________________________________________________________________

 

Yes, Rivers is a HOFer.  He'll finish his career top 5 all time in passing yards and likely top 5 in passing TDs (surpassing Marino in yards likely by week 10 of this season and he's 16 TDs shy of Marino).  


Rivers is an 8x pro-bowler (Eli was a 4x pro  bowler, Big Ben a 6x pro bowler).  Rivers was arguably the best QB in the league in 2008 (led the league in TDs and passer rating), otherwise he was usually top 5 (behind Peyton, Brady, Brees, Rodgers -- maybe two or three seasons behind Big Ben).  Peyton, Brady, Brees are the three most prolific QBs in pretty much every single significant passing category in NFL history.   Rivers has also led the league in passing yards and completion percentage on other occasions, was the 2013 NFL Comeback Player of Year, and his 230 consecutive starts I think are 6th most in NFL history.

 

I don't think he'll be first ballot without winning a ring, but he has every other credential to be a HOFer.  It'd be absolutely ridiculous if a guy who finished his career in the top 5 all-time in passing yards and passing TDs, only 1 of 10 QBs of all time with a career passer rating of 95.0 or better, top 5 in passes completed, top 10 in passing yards per game, and top 10 in passer completion percentage does not get into the HOF.

 

This really isn't an argument.  Look at the numbers.  Rivers is, undoubtedly, a hall of famer.

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Depends on how he does in next game.

I always hated the “no success” in the post season as a reason for not being elite.  Post season success is a team issue.    06 - First year of playing.  LT was having a MVP season.  Little was

Hope he wins a ring and beats tampa to get it

17 minutes ago, CurBeatElite said:

 

Eli also won two SB MVPs and beat Brady both times.  That is kinda huge.

 

 

Well Eli will be eligible at least 1 year earlier than Rivers, so highly unlikely Rivers beats him in.  Rivers has better career stats than both of them, more pro-bowls than both of them, in 2008 Rivers was the NFL passing TD leader and passer rating leader, in 2010 he lead the league in passing yards, in 2013 he lead the league in completion percentage.  Big Ben 2x had the most passing yards in his career, but never close to best completion percentage, TDs or completion percentage.  

 

As a side note, I think your Kenny Anderson comparison is a bit ridiculous - Rivers has >5% better career completion percentage, double the passing yards and TDs.

 

 

If Rivers does go into broadcasting, it should have absolutely nothing to do with him being voted into the HOF as a player.  

 

________________________________________________________________________

 

Yes, Rivers is a HOFer.  He'll finish his career top 5 all time in passing yards and likely top 5 in passing TDs (surpassing Marino in yards likely by week 10 of this season and he's 16 TDs shy of Marino).  


Rivers is an 8x pro-bowler (Eli was a 4x pro  bowler, Big Ben a 6x pro bowler).  Rivers was arguably the best QB in the league in 2008 (led the league in TDs and passer rating), otherwise he was usually top 5 (behind Peyton, Brady, Brees, Rodgers -- maybe two or three seasons behind Big Ben).  Peyton, Brady, Brees are the three most prolific QBs in pretty much every single significant passing category in NFL history.   Rivers has also led the league in passing yards and completion percentage on other occasions, was the 2013 NFL Comeback Player of Year, and his 230 consecutive starts I think are 6th most in NFL history.

 

I don't think he'll be first ballot without winning a ring, but he has every other credential to be a HOFer.  It'd be absolutely ridiculous if a guy who finished his career in the top 5 all-time in passing yards and passing TDs, only 1 of 10 QBs of all time with a career passer rating of 95.0 or better, top 5 in passes completed, top 10 in passing yards per game, and top 10 in passer completion percentage does not get into the HOF.

 

This really isn't an argument.  Look at the numbers.  Rivers is, undoubtedly, a hall of famer.

Hope he wins a ring and beats tampa to get it

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1 hour ago, DontEverGiveUp said:

Fouts never went to a SB either, and Rivers shattered all of his Chargers records.  Fouts still has significantly more career INTs as well.

Yeah and I liked those teams, I was only like 10 years old = 80/81 and they were so entertaining. They we were the Manning Colts before the Manning Colts. We got a ring because the D stepped up, the D never did for Fouts.

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1 hour ago, CurBeatElite said:

 

Eli also won two SB MVPs and beat Brady both times.  That is kinda huge.

 

 

Well Eli will be eligible at least 1 year earlier than Rivers, so highly unlikely Rivers beats him in.  Rivers has better career stats than both of them, more pro-bowls than both of them, in 2008 Rivers was the NFL passing TD leader and passer rating leader, in 2010 he lead the league in passing yards, in 2013 he lead the league in completion percentage.  Big Ben 2x had the most passing yards in his career, but never close to best completion percentage, TDs or completion percentage.  

 

As a side note, I think your Kenny Anderson comparison is a bit ridiculous - Rivers has >5% better career completion percentage, double the passing yards and TDs.

 

 

If Rivers does go into broadcasting, it should have absolutely nothing to do with him being voted into the HOF as a player.  

 

________________________________________________________________________

 

Yes, Rivers is a HOFer.  He'll finish his career top 5 all time in passing yards and likely top 5 in passing TDs (surpassing Marino in yards likely by week 10 of this season and he's 16 TDs shy of Marino).  


Rivers is an 8x pro-bowler (Eli was a 4x pro  bowler, Big Ben a 6x pro bowler).  Rivers was arguably the best QB in the league in 2008 (led the league in TDs and passer rating), otherwise he was usually top 5 (behind Peyton, Brady, Brees, Rodgers -- maybe two or three seasons behind Big Ben).  Peyton, Brady, Brees are the three most prolific QBs in pretty much every single significant passing category in NFL history.   Rivers has also led the league in passing yards and completion percentage on other occasions, was the 2013 NFL Comeback Player of Year, and his 230 consecutive starts I think are 6th most in NFL history.

 

I don't think he'll be first ballot without winning a ring, but he has every other credential to be a HOFer.  It'd be absolutely ridiculous if a guy who finished his career in the top 5 all-time in passing yards and passing TDs, only 1 of 10 QBs of all time with a career passer rating of 95.0 or better, top 5 in passes completed, top 10 in passing yards per game, and top 10 in passer completion percentage does not get into the HOF.

 

This really isn't an argument.  Look at the numbers.  Rivers is, undoubtedly, a hall of famer.

 

You realize you're talking about an era where teams were just starting to throw the football. At the end of the day, stats mean nothing without playoff success and vise-versa

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11 minutes ago, CR91 said:

 

You realize you're talking about an era where teams were just starting to throw the football. At the end of the day, stats mean nothing without playoff success and vise-versa

:facepalm:

What? The stats measures the success. 

They are voted on for their individual play not their playoff success. 

 

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8 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

:facepalm:

What? The stats measures the success. 

They are voted on for their individual play not their playoff success. 

 

 

I'm saying the two play hand and hand. I'm not saying he won't get in. I'm saying it's gonna take awhile and it's not gonna be before Eli and Ben

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6 minutes ago, CR91 said:

 

I'm saying the two play hand and hand. I'm not saying he won't get in. I'm saying it's gonna take awhile and it's not gonna be before Eli and Ben

Ben is still playing so you can't say that with any reality. 

I think Rivers gets in first ballet unlike some who don't. 

The thing is players have to wait five years. Opinions change over that time. 

A lot of fans don't realize that 48 members of the HOF vote on who gets in and when they get in. 

 

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24 minutes ago, CR91 said:

 

You realize you're talking about an era where teams were just starting to throw the football. At the end of the day, stats mean nothing without playoff success and vise-versa

 

Your initial post read: "I don't know. I kinda put him in the Kenny Anderson category. Great QB with stats to back it up, but no or little success in the post season. He'll get in, but not before Eli and Ben"

 

Kinda seems like stats mean something.  And your logic is totally flawed.  The HOF has a lot of factors and it is for individual players, not for teams.  Therefore, stats do matter.  If the HOF selection criteria was based mainly on playoff success, like you suggest in this post (contradicting your first post), then Trent Dilfer, Mark Rypien, Jeff Hostetler, Brad Johnson and Jim McMahon all are more deserving of a HOF spot than Dan Marino.  You realize how smart you sound?

 

Yes, I understand it's a more pass happy league now.  In his 16 NFL seasons, Kenny Anderson was a top 10 QB in 4, maybe 5 of those years (~25%).  In his 14 seasons as a starter, Rivers has been top 10 in 12 or 13 of them  (>85%) - many of them in the top 5.

 

The case for Kenny Anderson to be a HOFer is a very long shot (maybe his 1 MVP year out of 16?? No).  The case for Rivers as a HOFer is a 100% sure shot, he is well-deserving of it.  Winning a SB would be icing on the cake.    

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19 hours ago, coming on strong said:

No you misunderstood my point .   Dan marino no doubt belongs and he has no ring .   To me if a QB does not have a ring he needs to be a top 5 QB in his prime for multiple seasons .   i put rivers in the 6-10 range in his prime i would put him 6 out of 32 QBs in his prime  which is really good .  It depends what you consider hall of fame , if you think someone who is top 10 every year he played then yes he  belongs .   To me it needs to be the best of the best , for a QB it needs to be a players who was considered the best in the nfl for at least one season and a top 5 during his prime every year .  My point was if rivers gets a ring i put him in the same league as big ben and move him from top 6 to top 5 tied with ben

What you don't seem to understand is a player is judged and voted on what he did, not what other players did. 

That's not how the HOF works. 

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3 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Ben is still playing so you can't say that with any reality. 

I think Rivers gets in first ballet unlike some who don't. 

The thing is players have to wait five years. Opinions change over that time. 

A lot of fans don't realize that 48 members of the HOF vote on who gets in and when they get in. 

 

 

By the end of this year, barring injury, Rivers will definitely be top 5 All-Time in Passing Yards.  He'll likely be top 5 in passing TDs.  I am with you, the HOF has a lot of factors, but they aren't selecting 'teams' they are selecting individual players.  The fact Rivers doesn't have a SB will likely hurt him in the eyes of some voters, and it's the only thing I think which could keep him from being first ballot (potentially along with his retiring class and who else is on the ballot).  Eli likely won't return to the NFL, so he'll be eligible at least one year prior to Rivers - I don't see Eli as first ballot, but he'll get in.... I could see some voters selecting him over Rivers if Eli isn't in the same year Rivers is eligible.  Rivers will also be retiring likely around the same time as Big Ben, Brees, Brady, and some other guys who are sure-shot first ballot HOFers like Larry Fitzgerald, Jason Witten, Adrian Peterson, Frank Gore, etc...

 

That said, it'd be pretty darn hard for a person on the selection committee to have a good argument as to why he/she decided to not vote in a quarterback (the most important position in NFL football) who had top 5 career statistics.

 

Another interesting stat on Rivers: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/av_career.htm  He's 12th all time in approximate value.  Every guy ahead of him who has been eligible for the HOF is in the HOF and most players behind him, all the way down to 100 are in the HOF if they've been eligible to be there.  Heck, if you look at the top 50 of all time, the only two who haven't gotten in and have been eligible are Kenny Anderson and Jim Tryer (tied for 49).  

 

Also, to Rivers' credit on not having a SB.... look at the AFC superbowl representative since 2004-2005 (the year Rivers was drafted, even though he didn't start full-time until 2006). 

 

 2004 - New England (Brady)

2005 - Pittsburgh (Ben)

2006 - Indy (Peyton)

2007 - New England (Brady)

2008 - Pittsburgh (Ben)

2009 - Indy (Peyton)

2010 - Pittsburgh (Ben)

2011 - New England (Brady)

2012 - Baltimore (Flacco - who had a great post-season run but had an absolutely stacked D, arguably the best D ever)

2013 - Denver (Peyton)

2014 - New England (Brady)

2015 - Denver (Peyton)

2016 - New England (Brady)

2017 - New England (Brady)

2018 - New England (Brady)

2019 - KC (Mahommes)

 

Never before in NFL history has a team (New England with Brady and Belichick) been that dominant for such a long stretch.  I think everyone would agree that Brady, Peyton and Big Ben are all HOF QBs.  Flacco, highly unlikely.  Mahommes, if he stays healthy, may go down with a strong case of being the GOAT.  

 

Not like Rivers has had it easy in the AFC since he's been in the league.  The Colts were the winningest team of any decade in NFL history and made it to the SB twice during that stretch.  Brady/Bellichick were so dominant for so long together.  Flacco won it on a team with a top 5 defense of all time.  Mahommes and Ben are no slouches and had very good coaches and teams when they won.

 

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46 minutes ago, CurBeatElite said:

 

Your initial post read: "I don't know. I kinda put him in the Kenny Anderson category. Great QB with stats to back it up, but no or little success in the post season. He'll get in, but not before Eli and Ben"

 

Kinda seems like stats mean something.  And your logic is totally flawed.  The HOF has a lot of factors and it is for individual players, not for teams.  Therefore, stats do matter.  If the HOF selection criteria was based mainly on playoff success, like you suggest in this post (contradicting your first post), then Trent Dilfer, Mark Rypien, Jeff Hostetler, Brad Johnson and Jim McMahon all are more deserving of a HOF spot than Dan Marino.  You realize how smart you sound?

 

Yes, I understand it's a more pass happy league now.  In his 16 NFL seasons, Kenny Anderson was a top 10 QB in 4, maybe 5 of those years (~25%).  In his 14 seasons as a starter, Rivers has been top 10 in 12 or 13 of them  (>85%) - many of them in the top 5.

 

The case for Kenny Anderson to be a HOFer is a very long shot (maybe his 1 MVP year out of 16?? No).  The case for Rivers as a HOFer is a 100% sure shot, he is well-deserving of it.  Winning a SB would be icing on the cake.    

 

So are we talking just QB stats? Because guys like Randy Moss and Terrell Owens who are top 3 in every WR category were not first ballot. Cris Carter was not first ballot and he retired with all the best numbers at WR at that time. Our own Marv wasn't first ballot.

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2 minutes ago, CR91 said:

 

So are we talking just QB stats? Because guys like Randy Moss and Terrell Owens who are top 3 in every WR category were not first ballot. Cris Carter was not first ballot and he retired with all the best numbers at WR at that time. Our own Marv wasn't first ballot.

 

Didn't you say in your previous post that stats don't mean anything?

 

QB is a different position than WR, obviously.  And if you read my post, I'm saying I think Rivers has the credentials to be first-ballot but he'll have a lot of competition with guys who will be retiring at or near the same time as him and who will likely be on the ballot at the same time.  This all comes into play with the selection committee.

 

And then let's get to the facts... Rivers is going to be top 5 in passing yards and most likely passing TDs when he retires.  Right now he is one of only 6 QBs ever to throw over 60,000 yards and 400 + TDs.

 

Randy Moss was a first ballot HOFer, so you're wrong there.

 

Randy Moss is 15th all time in receptions, he never made it to the 1,000 reception milestone.  So you're wrong that he was 'top 3 in every WR category'.  Terrell Owens is 8th all time in receptions (and wasn't in the top 5 when he retired).  Cris Carter's numbers are no where near Jerry Rice's and weren't even in 2002 when he retired (Rice retired in 2004).  I'll give you some credit, Carter at the time he retired was only the 2nd WR to have over 1,100 receptions. 

 

Also, every one of those players you mentioned had off-field issues.  While they are not supposed to influence the selection committee, the selection committee is made up of humans and undoubtedly they do.  In the case of Moss and Owens, they were seen by many as poor teammates for a good chunk of their careers as well.

 

In Marv's case, Andre Reed got into the HOF in 2014 and Tim Brown in 2015.  Both WRs who had been eligible for a while.  I basically made the same argument about Rivers - Eli will be at least one class ahead of him, so I could see voters giving Eli the nod over Rivers. 

 

 

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1 minute ago, CurBeatElite said:

 

Didn't you say in your previous post that stats don't mean anything?

 

QB is a different position than WR, obviously.  And if you read my post, I'm saying I think Rivers has the credentials to be first-ballot but he'll have a lot of competition with guys who will be retiring at or near the same time as him and who will likely be on the ballot at the same time.  This all comes into play with the selection committee.

 

And then let's get to the facts... Rivers is going to be top 5 in passing yards and most likely passing TDs when he retires.  Right now he is one of only 6 QBs ever to throw over 60,000 yards and 400 + TDs.

 

Randy Moss was a first ballot HOFer, so you're wrong there.

 

Randy Moss is 15th all time in receptions, he never made it to the 1,000 reception milestone.  So you're wrong that he was 'top 3 in every WR category'.  Terrell Owens is 8th all time in receptions (and wasn't in the top 5 when he retired).  Cris Carter's numbers are no where near Jerry Rice's and weren't even in 2002 when he retired (Rice retired in 2004).  I'll give you some credit, Carter at the time he retired was only the 2nd WR to have over 1,100 receptions. 

 

Also, every one of those players you mentioned had off-field issues.  While they are not supposed to influence the selection committee, the selection committee is made up of humans and undoubtedly they do.  In the case of Moss and Owens, they were seen by many as poor teammates for a good chunk of their careers as well.

 

In Marv's case, Andre Reed got into the HOF in 2014 and Tim Brown in 2015.  Both WRs who had been eligible for a while.  I basically made the same argument about Rivers - Eli will be at least one class ahead of him, so I could see voters giving Eli the nod over Rivers. 

 

 

 

So you're nitpicking about receptions? Or off the field issues? Ray Lewis was accused of double murder and he's a first ballot hofer. 

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5 minutes ago, CR91 said:

 

So you're nitpicking about receptions? Or off the field issues? Ray Lewis was accused of double murder and he's a first ballot hofer. 

 

No, in your first post you say stats aren't important without post-season success.  Then you use a very poor example by comparing Rivers to Kenny Anderson.  Your logic in this post was very flawed.

 

Then you suggest I don't realize today's NFL is more passer-friendly than it was when Kenny Anderson played, which you were wrong about.

 

Then you come back with another post suggesting that stats do matter and use a list with 75% of the guys you named not having a superbowl ring (only Marv has 1).  Then you lie about your statistics, so not only were you trying to reverse your stance on flawed logic, you were lying with your claims (by the way Carter isn't in the top 10 in receiving yards).  

 

Ray Lewis wasn't (i.e., was NOT) found guilty on double murder.  He is also pretty much unarguably the best middle linebacker of his generation and arguably of all time (and had multiple super bowl rings).  Ray Lewis was always considered a team leader and an exceptional team mate.  There was a video of Randy Moss hitting a crossing guard with his car.  Randy Moss was known for taking plays off if he felt like it.  Owens had character issues on and off the field his entire career (including spitting in an opponents face on the field and overdosing on pain killers off the field).  Owens truly displayed his character by being the only member of the NFL HOF to skip his induction ceremony and instead held a private party.  Marvin punched a young fan at the pro bowl and was in the news related to multiple shootings outside his carwash very near the time he was up for eligibilty.

 

I'm really not nitpicking anything at all.  I'm saying you have flawed logic to start the argument and you are lying (maybe not intentionally, maybe you're desperate and don't realize you're making stuff up) and reversing on your logic from your initial argument.  And you're obviously not reading my posts fully and are seemingly attempting to be a troll.

 

 

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Just now, CurBeatElite said:

 

No, in your first post you say stats aren't important without post-season success.  Then you use a very poor example by comparing Rivers to Kenny Anderson.  Your logic in this post was very flawed.

 

Then you suggest I don't realize today's NFL is more passer-friendly than it was when Kenny Anderson played, which you were wrong about.

 

Then you come back with another post suggesting that stats do matter and use a list with 75% of the guys you named not having a superbowl ring (only Marv has 1).  Then you lie about your statistics, so not only were you trying to reverse your stance on flawed logic, you were lying with your claims (by the way Carter isn't in the top 10 in receiving yards).  

 

Ray Lewis wasn't (i.e., was NOT) found guilty on double murder.  He is also pretty much unarguably the best middle linebacker of his generation and arguably of all time (and had multiple super bowl rings).  Ray Lewis was always considered a team leader and an exceptional team mate.  There was a video of Randy Moss hitting a crossing guard with his car.  Randy Moss was known for taking plays off if he felt like it.  Owens had character issues on and off the field his entire career (including spitting in an opponents face on the field and overdosing on pain killers off the field).  Owens truly displayed his character by being the only member of the NFL HOF to skip his induction ceremony and instead held a private party.  Marvin punched a young fan at the pro bowl and was in the news related to multiple shootings outside his carwash very near the time he was up for eligibilty.

 

I'm really not nitpicking anything at all.  I'm saying you have flawed logic to start the argument and you are lying (maybe not intentionally, maybe you're desperate and don't realize you're making stuff up) and reversing on your logic from your initial argument.  And you're obviously not reading my posts fully and are seemingly attempting to be a troll.

 

 

 

Bro I've been here for almost 10 years. I'm no troll. All I'm saying is stats are not the biggest indicator for the HOF especially for a first ballot HOF. I never said he's not a HOF. I said it might take him awhile to get in. 

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20 hours ago, DontEverGiveUp said:

He has definitely been viewed as a top 5 QB at various points in his career.

 

Edited for further detail:

Rivers was top 5 (or better) in 2008, 2009, 2010, 2013, and 2018.  Top 10 in most of his other seasons.

I think most people would choose Manning, Brees, Brady, Rodgers and others over Rivers in those years.  he may crack the top 5 but not by much.  

I think he gets in the HOF but I'm just saying that I would be much more selective if I was in charge of the HOF.  

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39 minutes ago, Myles said:

I think most people would choose Manning, Brees, Brady, Rodgers and others over Rivers in those years.  he may crack the top 5 but not by much.  

I think he gets in the HOF but I'm just saying that I would be much more selective if I was in charge of the HOF.  

The thing is a player gets in the HOF based on his accomplishments, not what other player did while he was playing. That is not how the voting works. :hat:

 

 

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31 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

The thing is a player gets in the HOF based on his accomplishments, not what other player did while he was playing. That is not how the voting works. :hat:

 

 

I get that, I'd just prefer it be tougher to get in.   Since the game changes and the rules change, I think comparing to other players playing the same position at the same time is the most fair way to do it.  

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On 10/19/2020 at 5:59 PM, CR91 said:

I don't know. I kinda put him in the Kenny Anderson category. Great QB with stats to back it up, but no or little success in the post season. He'll get in, but not before Eli and Ben


I always hated the “no success” in the post season as a reason for not being elite.  Post season success is a team issue. 
 

06 - First year of playing.  LT was having a MVP season.  Little was expected of Rivers.  Multiple stupid penalties, a fumbled INT, and a missed FG essentially lost that

 

07 - He played on a torn ACL against a 16-0 patriots team.  Can’t really expect anything spectacular 

 

08 - Team was 8-8.  They weren’t expected to win the super bowl.  He threw 3 TD in the loss to Steelers, but defense and special teams sucked

 

09 - lost by 3.  Kaeding missed 3 FG.  He did throw a costly INT that lead to 7 points, but game was still winnable. 

 

13 - played pretty good, but vanilla ground and pound playcalling ruined game.  Had a chance to come back at the end but classic Chargers allowed Manning to convert a 3rd and 18 to seal the game

 

18 - threw 3 TDs, but the defense got absolutely shredded by patriots.  
 

not saying he played the best he’s ever played in these games.  But he didn’t play horrible in any of them.  His lack of post season success isn’t from him crumbling in playoffs.  It was just Chargers being Chargers. 

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The criteria for a player to get into the HOF don't seem to be the same criteria that some fans thinks it should be. 

May I suggest for those not clear go to the HOF web site and it explains the process. 

 

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1 hour ago, SpanosSucks said:

Also, it’s funny people are putting super bowl wins out there like it’s just a QB thing.  Look up Big Bens 05 SB stats and let me how elite they were.  

Yep. He stunk but nobody cares because he won, comical. That is why I always say winning is the #1 thing. If he throws for 500 yards but loses, most would say scoreboard. 

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3 hours ago, SpanosSucks said:


I always hated the “no success” in the post season as a reason for not being elite.  Post season success is a team issue. 
 

06 - First year of playing.  LT was having a MVP season.  Little was expected of Rivers.  Multiple stupid penalties, a fumbled INT, and a missed FG essentially lost that

 

07 - He played on a torn ACL against a 16-0 patriots team.  Can’t really expect anything spectacular 

 

08 - Team was 8-8.  They weren’t expected to win the super bowl.  He threw 3 TD in the loss to Steelers, but defense and special teams sucked

 

09 - lost by 3.  Kaeding missed 3 FG.  He did throw a costly INT that lead to 7 points, but game was still winnable. 

 

13 - played pretty good, but vanilla ground and pound playcalling ruined game.  Had a chance to come back at the end but classic Chargers allowed Manning to convert a 3rd and 18 to seal the game

 

18 - threw 3 TDs, but the defense got absolutely shredded by patriots.  
 

not saying he played the best he’s ever played in these games.  But he didn’t play horrible in any of them.  His lack of post season success isn’t from him crumbling in playoffs.  It was just Chargers being Chargers. 

 

Did I say that's a fair assessment? It's just part of the equation. I didn't make the rules.

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4 hours ago, SpanosSucks said:

Also, it’s funny people are putting super bowl wins out there like it’s just a QB thing.  Look up Big Bens 05 SB stats and let me how elite they were.  

I also find it ironic that Colts fans argue about Rivers lack of playoff success when he knocked them out twice. And those Colts teams were loaded. Rivers was undefeated against Colts in playoffs, so they should be the last people making this point. 

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On 10/19/2020 at 7:22 PM, danlhart87 said:

This was a hot topic in another thread this past weekend that several people had various opinions on

 

I also asked Andrew on Colts Mailbag so looking forward to his answer. 

 

What are your thoughts?

IMO yes he has done enough to get in

 

Yes!

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On 10/19/2020 at 6:22 PM, danlhart87 said:

This was a hot topic in another thread this past weekend that several people had various opinions on

 

I also asked Andrew on Colts Mailbag so looking forward to his answer. 

 

What are your thoughts?

IMO yes he has done enough to get in

When I think of HOF, how did the player change the game compared to his peers at the time he was playing?  And IMO, Rivers has not really done anything to change the game.  He's a good QB and does a good job but he does not have the yards/TDs of a Brady or Manning or Brees.  He has not changed the way an offense functions nor a way a defense prepares, like Peyton, He does not have the SBs of a Eli Manning, SBs are not a huge factor, but between similar candidates it has to play a factor.

 

He probably will get into the HOF, and while I'm glad he is a Colt, I don't think he has done anything HOF worthy

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1 hour ago, Bolts2Colts said:

I also find it ironic that Colts fans argue about Rivers lack of playoff success when he knocked them out twice. And those Colts teams were loaded. Rivers was undefeated against Colts in playoffs, so they should be the last people making this point. 

That doesn't even make sense.  Whether the Chargers beat the Colts or not does not determine his playoff success.  That would only make sense if the Chargers ONLY played the Colts in the playoffs.  The fact is he is 5-6 in the playoffs.  That is not a lot of playoff games for a 17 year career and it's not a lot of playoff wins.  Take out the Colts and he is 3-6 against other playoff teams.

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14 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

That doesn't even make sense.  Whether the Chargers beat the Colts or not does not determine his playoff success.  That would only make sense if the Chargers ONLY played the Colts in the playoffs.  The fact is he is 5-6 in the playoffs.  That is not a lot of playoff games for a 17 year career and it's not a lot of playoff wins.  Take out the Colts and he is 3-6 against other playoff teams.

I think Rivers is a HOFamer but I said that even before he was here so I have validity in saying that not making me a homer. He has the stats, durability not missing starts for 2 decades, and overall wins. He did at least play in 1 AFC Title Game too. If Joe Namath is in the HOFame based off 1 freaking game than Rivers belongs. I would take Rivers over Namath if I had to win a game. Namath won because dumb butt Earl played lousy IMO with the silliest turnovers I have ever seen. If the Jets don't win that game he wouldn't even be in.

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12 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I think Rivers is a HOFamer but I said that even before he was here so I have validity in saying that not making me a homer. He has the stats, durability not missing starts for 2 decades, and overall wins. He did at least play in 1 AFC Title Game too. If Joe Namath is in the HOFame based off 1 freaking game than Rivers belongs. I would take Rivers over Namath if I had to win a game. Namath won because dumb butt Earl played lousy IMO with the silliest turnovers I have ever seen. If the Jets don't win that game he wouldn't even be in.

Yeah, there are quite a few people that would not be in the HOF based on my criteria.

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3 hours ago, Myles said:

I get that, I'd just prefer it be tougher to get in.   Since the game changes and the rules change, I think comparing to other players playing the same position at the same time is the most fair way to do it.  

 

I see where you are coming from to some extent... but don't fully agree.  I think if you ask just about anyone who follows football and has for a long time to name the top 3 QBs ever, both Brady and Manning will be mentioned.  There are 23 QBs from the modern-era in the Pro Football HOF.  Several of those guys were not the best at their position at any point in their career.

 

Troy Aikman won multiple superbowls on absolutely loaded teams, but he was never a first or second team all-pro and was only a 6x pro-bowler (Rivers has gone to 8).  Aikman never lead the league in any major passing stat in any season of his career.  In 2008 Rivers threw the most TDs and had the highest passer-rating of any QB in the league, in 2010 Rivers lead the league in passing yards, in 2013 he lead the league in completion percent.  Aikman throughout his career was never really at the top of the league in terms of QB play (as evidenced by no first or second all-pro selections and never leading the NFL in any significant passer category) -- most would say Marino, Montana (early in AIkman's career), Steve Young, John Elway, Brett Favre, Jim Kelly, Warren Moon, and late in his career Kurt Warner and Peyton Manning were better QBs than Aikman.

 

That's one example out of many where guys who are in the HOF may not have been the top dog at any given point in their career, but still had a HOF career.  Compared to guys who he was drafted with who are likely HOFers, Rivers has better individual statistics than both Eli and Big Ben.  He was never really on an 'elite' team all-around (especially lacking a top notch defense like Eli and Ben both had during their SB wins).  RIvers beat Peyton in the playoffs and despite playing with other HOFers like Brady, Peyton, Brees, Eli, Big Ben, Kurt Warner, Favre, etc.. he made the pro-bowl 8x, and in 2008 when every one of those guys were in the league he still lead the league in passer rating and TDs thrown.

 

2 hours ago, SpanosSucks said:


I always hated the “no success” in the post season as a reason for not being elite.  Post season success is a team issue. 
 

06 - First year of playing.  LT was having a MVP season.  Little was expected of Rivers.  Multiple stupid penalties, a fumbled INT, and a missed FG essentially lost that

 

07 - He played on a torn ACL against a 16-0 patriots team.  Can’t really expect anything spectacular 

 

08 - Team was 8-8.  They weren’t expected to win the super bowl.  He threw 3 TD in the loss to Steelers, but defense and special teams sucked

 

09 - lost by 3.  Kaeding missed 3 FG.  He did throw a costly INT that lead to 7 points, but game was still winnable. 

 

13 - played pretty good, but vanilla ground and pound playcalling ruined game.  Had a chance to come back at the end but classic Chargers allowed Manning to convert a 3rd and 18 to seal the game

 

18 - threw 3 TDs, but the defense got absolutely shredded by patriots.  
 

not saying he played the best he’s ever played in these games.  But he didn’t play horrible in any of them.  His lack of post season success isn’t from him crumbling in playoffs.  It was just Chargers being Chargers. 

 

I get why post-season success can push a borderline guy (see Eli) over the edge.  But since Rivers has been in the league there have been 2 occassions when the QB representing the AFC team in the Superbowl wasn't named Brady, Peyton or Ben (1x Flacco with a loaded defense and 1x Mahommes who just had one of the greatest seasons by a QB in NFL history).  

 

The level Rivers has played at, for the amount of time he's played, makes him a surefire HOFer (he's about to surpass Marino's records and the only knock on Marino was he didn't win a SB).  First ballot? Maybe... will he get in within a couple years of being eligible? Definitely.

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It's not nearly as hard to get in as it used to be when I was a kid.  I don't think there's even a question if Rivers gets in or not.  When you stack his numbers up with others and the longevity he's had, he's getting in.  The question for me is how long does he have to wait?  I doubt he's a 1st ballot guy.  I could see him having to wait 3-5 years to make it.  But he's getting in IMHO.

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6 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Yep. He stunk but nobody cares because he won, comical. That is why I always say winning is the #1 thing. If he throws for 500 yards but loses, most would say scoreboard. 

That's for sure! On October 18th, 2015 Philip passed for 503 yards with 2 touchdowns and no picks at Green Bay, but the Chargers were stopped on the Packers' 3 on 4th & goal with :15 left, and lost by 7 points.

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14 hours ago, CurBeatElite said:

 

I see where you are coming from to some extent... but don't fully agree.  I think if you ask just about anyone who follows football and has for a long time to name the top 3 QBs ever, both Brady and Manning will be mentioned.  There are 23 QBs from the modern-era in the Pro Football HOF.  Several of those guys were not the best at their position at any point in their career.

 

Troy Aikman won multiple superbowls on absolutely loaded teams, but he was never a first or second team all-pro and was only a 6x pro-bowler (Rivers has gone to 8).  Aikman never lead the league in any major passing stat in any season of his career.  In 2008 Rivers threw the most TDs and had the highest passer-rating of any QB in the league, in 2010 Rivers lead the league in passing yards, in 2013 he lead the league in completion percent.  Aikman throughout his career was never really at the top of the league in terms of QB play (as evidenced by no first or second all-pro selections and never leading the NFL in any significant passer category) -- most would say Marino, Montana (early in AIkman's career), Steve Young, John Elway, Brett Favre, Jim Kelly, Warren Moon, and late in his career Kurt Warner and Peyton Manning were better QBs than Aikman.

 

That's one example out of many where guys who are in the HOF may not have been the top dog at any given point in their career, but still had a HOF career.  Compared to guys who he was drafted with who are likely HOFers, Rivers has better individual statistics than both Eli and Big Ben.  He was never really on an 'elite' team all-around (especially lacking a top notch defense like Eli and Ben both had during their SB wins).  RIvers beat Peyton in the playoffs and despite playing with other HOFers like Brady, Peyton, Brees, Eli, Big Ben, Kurt Warner, Favre, etc.. he made the pro-bowl 8x, and in 2008 when every one of those guys were in the league he still lead the league in passer rating and TDs thrown.

 

 

I get why post-season success can push a borderline guy (see Eli) over the edge.  But since Rivers has been in the league there have been 2 occassions when the QB representing the AFC team in the Superbowl wasn't named Brady, Peyton or Ben (1x Flacco with a loaded defense and 1x Mahommes who just had one of the greatest seasons by a QB in NFL history).  

 

The level Rivers has played at, for the amount of time he's played, makes him a surefire HOFer (he's about to surpass Marino's records and the only knock on Marino was he didn't win a SB).  First ballot? Maybe... will he get in within a couple years of being eligible? Definitely.

I don't disagree with much of that.  

My view is pretty much hypothetical since he is going to be in the HOF.  Based on others that have gotten in, it'd be dumb to think he won't get in.

I just was voicing how I wish the HOF was.   Only the best of the best would get in.  Not Namath, Swann and Griese.  

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On 10/21/2020 at 9:13 AM, Myles said:

I think most people would choose Manning, Brees, Brady, Rodgers and others over Rivers in those years.  he may crack the top 5 but not by much.  

I think he gets in the HOF but I'm just saying that I would be much more selective if I was in charge of the HOF.  

Sure, if it's a popularity contest.

 

But statistically, Rivers was the best QB in the league from 2008-2010.  He was top 3 in 2013 and 2018.

 

And for comparison's sake, let's look at Brady vs Rivers in the years I listed.  Rivers undoubtedly had better performances in 2008, 2009, 2013, and 2018. 

 

Heck, Brady only played part of 1 game in 2008, while Rivers led the league in TDs, TD%, Y/A, AY/A, and passer rating...I'd love to find the person who thinks he had a better season than Rivers that year.

 

And let me expand on that 2008 season, and how it proves Rivers has been criminally underrated (which leads to many of these unnecessary HOF discussions).  Imagine a QB that leads the entire NFL in TDs, TD%, Y/A, AY/A, and passer rating but doesn't even get voted to the pro bowl.  I don't think a QB has ever been more robbed of accolades than Philip Rivers that year.  Should have been MVP.

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On 10/21/2020 at 7:58 PM, Lancer1 said:

That's for sure! On October 18th, 2015 Philip passed for 503 yards with 2 touchdowns and no picks at Green Bay, but the Chargers were stopped on the Packers' 3 on 4th & goal with :15 left, and lost by 7 points.

And the game tying TD was dropped by Woodhead on 3rd down.  But nobody remembers that.

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On 10/21/2020 at 5:37 PM, Coffeedrinker said:

That doesn't even make sense.  Whether the Chargers beat the Colts or not does not determine his playoff success.  That would only make sense if the Chargers ONLY played the Colts in the playoffs.  The fact is he is 5-6 in the playoffs.  That is not a lot of playoff games for a 17 year career and it's not a lot of playoff wins.  Take out the Colts and he is 3-6 against other playoff teams.

Take away Rivers 400+ TDs and he has none.  Great logic.

 

Also, I find it funny that many people think Luck was so much better and criticize Rivers for his lack of postseason success, while Luck had more INTs than TDs in the playoffs.

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Rivers has never been a Hall of Famer for me.

 

I think he’s in the Hall of the very, very good.  I suspect he will eventually get in the Hall.  He’s been very good for a long time and has put up lots of numbers.  So odds are the Chargers franchise will make a big push for him.   I won’t complain.   But if I had a vote, I doubt he’d get it.   Just my two cents....

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danlhart87 on Colts.com Forums: "I know we were playing catch up against the Bengals which explains the lopsided Pass Run ratio but is there a reason Colts aren't running the ball a whole lot? Taylor YPC have improved and I strongly believe he could hit 100 if given the carries constantly.

Seems like a different WR or TE is stepping up every week so how do you expect the depth chart to be effected once Pittman returns?

Do you think Rivers career numbers qualify him for the HOF? It was a hot topic on the forum this past weekend."

 

 

 

Walker: You always come strong with several questions a week. I'd love to focus on just one, but because it's the bye week and I'm feeling good, I'll try to address them all.

— You're right about the catch-up mode against the Bengals relative to fewer running opportunities in that ballgame. But I'm not so sure I agree that the Colts haven't been running the ball a whole lot; they entered Week 7 action ranked tied for seventh in the league in rushing attempts (172), and they also aren't scared to run against a stacked box; their 74 running plays against eight or more box defenders are fifth most in the league, according to Pro Football Focus. In all, the Colts are running the ball on 44.09 percent of their offensive plays, which is the 12th-most in the league; before the Bengals game, that figure was at 47.76 percent, which ranked seventh. So I don't see anything here worth noting in terms of something the Colts are or are not doing; they just need to be more consistent in those opportunities.

— The Colts selected Michael Pittman Jr. in the second round of this year's NFL Draft for a reason, and he still offers you a unique skillset in terms of what he can provide you outside, as well as his willingness as a run blocker and his toughness making catches across the middle on third down. So, yeah, I expect some roles to be affected once he returns, but outside of maybe fewer targets here and there for guys like Zach Pascal, Marcus Johnson, Trey Burton, Jack Doyle and Mo Alie-Cox, I can't say for sure what exactly will change until we see it in action.

— Philip Rivers is 100 percent going into the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Period. End of discussion.

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