Jump to content
Indianapolis Colts
Indianapolis Colts Fan Forum

Scheme vs. Talent... Where the Colts may have gotten it wrong offensively


Recommended Posts

3 minutes ago, Zoltan said:

I also feel I have to mention no team hits on every draft pick and hindsight picking the perfect draft for your team is not realistic 

 

Raiders finally figured out after Antonio Brown's shenanigans and Tyrell Williams' injury history that they needed to double dip into the WR pool thus getting Ruggs, Lynn Bowden Jr., Bryan Edwards all in 1 draft (on Day 1 and Day 2, 3 WR picks). We need some double dipping in the 2021 NFL Draft and get competent QB play to go with it. Rivers seems to be picking up where he left off in 2019 so far. While it might be an improvement over JB, it is still not good enough to help us compete against elite teams right now, IMO.

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

Raiders finally figured out after Antonio Brown's shenanigans and Tyrell Williams' injury history that they needed to double dip into the WR pool thus getting Ruggs, Lynn Bowden Jr., Bryan Edwards all in 1 draft (on Day 1 and Day 2, 3 WR picks). We need some double dipping in the 2021 NFL Draft and get competent QB play to go with it. Rivers seems to be picking up where he left off in 2019 so far. While it might be an improvement over JB, it is still not good enough to help us compete against elite teams right now, IMO.

 

Yes.  When you have a deep draft it makes a lot of sense to double dip...and no...that doesn't mean getting a Patmon or a Cain in the 6th. 

 

It like getting a new car for the price of a used car because there is a glut of new cars at the time you're buying.  It helps in the long run.  Especially if you need multiple cars daily in your line of work.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

Raiders finally figured out after Antonio Brown's shenanigans and Tyrell Williams' injury history that they needed to double dip into the WR pool thus getting Ruggs, Lynn Bowden Jr., Bryan Edwards all in 1 draft (on Day 1 and Day 2, 3 WR picks). We need some double dipping in the 2021 NFL Draft and get competent QB play to go with it. Rivers seems to be picking up where he left off in 2019 so far. While it might be an improvement over JB, it is still not good enough to help us compete against elite teams right now, IMO.

 

 

I think the major thing is competent QB play, personally I'm on the mindset that you don't use 1st round pick on WRs, and just because you can find playmakers in the 2nd and later rounds, also that there are other positions that you can't find high quality outside the first like pass rusher.

 

Where we are right now I don't think we need to double dip, I would say we need a TE before another WR, but to me WR isn't the problem because I like the depth we have and think if we get a young playmaking QB we have the talent  to support him. The biggest limitation on our offense right now to me is Rivers

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Indeee said:

I alluded to offensively as I believe defensively the Colts have done a better than average job. I'm not so sure this was Ballard though even though he will get the credit. I believe most of the defensive success lays at the hands of Dodds from evaluation, Ballard's second in charge who was part if not the architect for the Seattle Defense.

 

Offensively though, The Colts IMO have gotten this all wrong. Excluding the pick of Nelson, which any fan could have made, the selections of draftees and selection of FA's at the skill positions have failed miserably and here is why.

 

These positions have been selected on scheme fit. To me, that's the most telling clue and why to this point that philosophy has failed this team. Truly Talented "offensive" players will always excel no matter what scheme they get thrown into. The talent will outweigh the system every time. In the case of the Colts, the offensive players who were selected were based on scheme fit and not talent overall. That isn't to say that some are not talented, it's to say they are not above average talent, so in that case, scheme would matter.

 

Until the Colts stop selecting offensive players based on scheme and select on pure talent alone, the Colts will never be talented enough to compete with the teams that chose talent over scheme within other top organizations. 

This is way over simplification and borderline just silly.

 

Campbell was one of the highest evaluated WRs in the draft. He was I believe tied for 2nd overall by NFL.com, and was tied for 1st best Z/slot WR. All his measurables were off the chart. Taylor was the 2nd best graded RB this year and was considered prototypical for the position. Pittman IIRC was the 1st or 2nd highest graded X. Smith, while played at T instead of G, was a no-brainer from a big time school who ran the ball a ton and produced some great OL talent. 

 

Those are our top 3 round picks for O. None of these guys are "scheme" guys. Scheme guys aren't typically ranked so high, and their measurables typically aren't well rounded or are specific.

 

10 hours ago, tweezy32 said:

P. Campbell

Nah. Not at all. Campbell played in a scheme at OSU, and plays in a scheme in Indy, but he's not a scheme guy. He's about as prototypical as a slot/z can be. And just about every team and every scheme utilizes slot/z type of WRs.

10 hours ago, Indeee said:

Parris, Hines, Ebron, Funchess, Pittman Jr., Cain.... 

 

Remember? Cain, fountain, Funchess: Big bodied wideout to compliment TY. That's not talent that's positional; scheme

 

Hines. Parris: fast little guys to fit scheme of crossing under route slot, backfield checkdown

 

Pittman Jr.: In mold of Vincent Jackson, again trying to find big bodied wideout to compliment

 

Taylor was drafted based on the Colts finding out 3 years too late that Mack was injury prone and wasn't going to stand up to rigors of every down back. With that being said, Taylor, IF his body holds up, might be the only skill player drafted on pure talent alone

 

My point is that in every one of these cases, they were selected based on trying to find a guy who fit a scheme piece that was missing and not on pure talent alone

More oversimplification and just bad points. If anything, you need to blame Reich for his scheme, which is failing to utilize the talents of his offensive draft picks.

 

Almost all teams use big bodied X type WRs. Almost all teams use fast guys in slot/z positions. Both were highly rated overall, and both had great measurables for their type of WRs.

 

And to even try and grade Parris with his limited participation, or Pittman due to the same, is just plain silly at this point.

 

Cain? He was a late round shot. Nothing in that pick should suggest "scheme" guy. If anything, Cain was a deep field specialist, which Reich doesn't even really use in his scheme. He tried to make an X out of Cain which was just silly.

 

9 hours ago, Indeee said:

Parris was not drafted based on pure talent alone, you are wrong. As a matter of fact, the Ohio state wideout with the pure talent was McLaurin. Parris was talented but oft injured and was always a porotype slot playing out of position in OU and the Colts took him knowing they were looking for a slot guy. It's why they passed on other wideouts that year who have fared better as they thought they had the other positions on the team locked into place. If not for injuries it was going to be TY, Funchess, and Campbell. See how that works out? The Colts have been trying to build and fill a scheme

Nah.... OSU employs a specific scheme. McLaurin was more of a scheme guy than Campbell. He was more of just a deep guy and STs guy. McLaurin is only seeing more production because 1) Washington's WR core is so bad, he became a go-to early, and 2) Campbell has been hurt and out more than in.

 

McLauren was more fast than quick, and Campbell's measurements were better in every way. Campbell's production in college was better in every way. McLauren was considered a long strider, body catcher, and poor blocker in the draft. And Campbell wasn't oft injured in college. You're making stuff up. He played 12+ games in his last 3 seasons

9 hours ago, DougDew said:

Banagu, Turay, and Lewis were drafted to play certain roles.  They are not, nor ever were thought of as, three down players.

You're making some leaps here. Turay was known for his run defense more than his pass rush in college, so you can't say he wasn't ever thought of as a possible 3 down player. Many thought he might make that step this year. Lewis was a tweener, a bad pick IMO, so who knows what they intended for him. I'm guessing just depth. Banogu IMO, and the whole SAM experiment, was just silly IMO. Great example of trying to be too cute with your draft board. 

9 hours ago, DougDew said:

Yes, role players and positions are important, but generally 1st and 2nd rounds can find overall talented players who have more versatility.

 

Blackmon is a good example.  He dropped because of the knee but was regarded as a pure second round pick.  In fact, as a second round grade, he is more versatile than our "deep ball hawk" that was drafted pick 15.

Actually, Blackmon is an example of a scheme fit, who comes from a school with a D big on "scheme". Most of the reviews saw him as a guy that will struggle deep in coverage as a single high. Most praised him for his box coverage and hitting. Most saw him as a NB, Strong S, or Split S (2 high). We have yet to really see how he will do in true deep coverage (when he's not simply helping). His big plays thus far have been either helping, or down hill. Still very early to say anything definitive about him. Personally, I think he'll be very good in a 2 high scheme at split S, or as a pure strong S. If he's playing FS in a single high environment, we really haven't seen that yet.

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Zoltan said:


I can’t agree, Rivers doesn’t have the arm strength those have, and his deep ball is to slow allowing the CB to recover

 

Rivers threw a beautiful deep ball to Hilton in the end zone a few weeks ago (unfortunately, it was dropped).

 

He threw 2 more to Dulin and Johnson against the Browns.  Rivers may have trouble zipping out routes like he used to, but I've seen nothing to suggest he has lost anything on deep shots and 50/50 balls. 

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, zibby43 said:

 

Rivers threw a beautiful deep ball to Hilton in the end zone a few weeks ago (unfortunately, it was dropped).

 

He threw 2 more to Dulin and Johnson against the Browns.  Rivers may have trouble zipping out routes like he used to, but I've seen nothing to suggest he has lost anything on deep shots and 50/50 balls. 

 

 

He also threw a dime to Pascal two weeks ago, as well as a few perfect passes on sail routes to Mo.

 

He's never had a cannon. He's always been statue. He's always had INT issues. Is his arm strength declining? IDK, but he's still hitting several throws that would suggest he's still the same guy.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, chad72 said:

Robert Mathis was supposed to be a 3-4 OLB too because he was undersized but he learnt to be effective and in Dungy's system, excelled as a 4-3 DE in a 3-point stance. It helped because he had Freeney on the other side for the strong side DE.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Vexed said:
19 hours ago, chad72 said:

Robert Mathis was supposed to be a 3-4 OLB too because he was undersized but he learnt to be effective and in Dungy's system, excelled as a 4-3 DE in a 3-point stance. It helped because he had Freeney on the other side for the strong side DE.

I would just add to this by saying it helped Robert having Freeney on the other side INITIALLY. He proved to be HOF material even without Dwight.

Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, Vexed said:

I would just add to this by saying it helped Robert having Freeney on the other side INITIALLY. He proved to be HOF material even without Dwight.


Mathis was had one great season without Freeney (2013)...and there is a PED cloud over it. That was also his only All-Pro team.
 

I loved watching Mathis...his bend was insane...but I don’t think he will get in the HOF.
 

 

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, zibby43 said:

 

Rivers threw a beautiful deep ball to Hilton in the end zone a few weeks ago (unfortunately, it was dropped).

 

He threw 2 more to Dulin and Johnson against the Browns.  Rivers may have trouble zipping out routes like he used to, but I've seen nothing to suggest he has lost anything on deep shots and 50/50 balls. 

 

 

 

See If River's throws that ball in stride that's a touchdown, but Johnson has to slow down and almost curl his route a little bit at the end to get to the ball allowing the safety to recover and hit him as he makes the catch. you put Wilson or Allen Big Ben that's a touchdown.

 

Basically the WRs are getting separation but because of the lack of arm strength they are having to make adjustments allowing the DB recover and make the catch a lot harder.

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, EastStreet said:

He also threw a dime to Pascal two weeks ago, as well as a few perfect passes on sail routes to Mo.

 

He's never had a cannon. He's always been statue. He's always had INT issues. Is his arm strength declining? IDK, but he's still hitting several throws that would suggest he's still the same guy.

 

I'm not saying he can't make throws, but I do think there has been a regression and like you have said he didn't start with a lot of arm strength and is more of a timing cerebral QB. The problem though that I have been seeing is that he has been late in his reads and he doesn't have the arm strength to get the ball to the WR before the DB recovers.

Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, EastStreet said:

This is way over simplification and borderline just silly.

 

Campbell was one of the highest evaluated WRs in the draft. He was I believe tied for 2nd overall by NFL.com, and was tied for 1st best Z/slot WR. All his measurables were off the chart. Taylor was the 2nd best graded RB this year and was considered prototypical for the position. Pittman IIRC was the 1st or 2nd highest graded X. Smith, while played at T instead of G, was a no-brainer from a big time school who ran the ball a ton and produced some great OL talent. 

 

Those are our top 3 round picks for O. None of these guys are "scheme" guys. Scheme guys aren't typically ranked so high, and their measurables typically aren't well rounded or are specific.

 

Nah. Not at all. Campbell played in a scheme at OSU, and plays in a scheme in Indy, but he's not a scheme guy. He's about as prototypical as a slot/z can be. And just about every team and every scheme utilizes slot/z type of WRs.

More oversimplification and just bad points. If anything, you need to blame Reich for his scheme, which is failing to utilize the talents of his offensive draft picks.

 

Almost all teams use big bodied X type WRs. Almost all teams use fast guys in slot/z positions. Both were highly rated overall, and both had great measurables for their type of WRs.

 

And to even try and grade Parris with his limited participation, or Pittman due to the same, is just plain silly at this point.

 

Cain? He was a late round shot. Nothing in that pick should suggest "scheme" guy. If anything, Cain was a deep field specialist, which Reich doesn't even really use in his scheme. He tried to make an X out of Cain which was just silly.

 

Nah.... OSU employs a specific scheme. McLaurin was more of a scheme guy than Campbell. He was more of just a deep guy and STs guy. McLaurin is only seeing more production because 1) Washington's WR core is so bad, he became a go-to early, and 2) Campbell has been hurt and out more than in.

 

McLauren was more fast than quick, and Campbell's measurements were better in every way. Campbell's production in college was better in every way. McLauren was considered a long strider, body catcher, and poor blocker in the draft. And Campbell wasn't oft injured in college. You're making stuff up. He played 12+ games in his last 3 seasons

You're making some leaps here. Turay was known for his run defense more than his pass rush in college, so you can't say he wasn't ever thought of as a possible 3 down player. Many thought he might make that step this year. Lewis was a tweener, a bad pick IMO, so who knows what they intended for him. I'm guessing just depth. Banogu IMO, and the whole SAM experiment, was just silly IMO. Great example of trying to be too cute with your draft board. 

Actually, Blackmon is an example of a scheme fit, who comes from a school with a D big on "scheme". Most of the reviews saw him as a guy that will struggle deep in coverage as a single high. Most praised him for his box coverage and hitting. Most saw him as a NB, Strong S, or Split S (2 high). We have yet to really see how he will do in true deep coverage (when he's not simply helping). His big plays thus far have been either helping, or down hill. Still very early to say anything definitive about him. Personally, I think he'll be very good in a 2 high scheme at split S, or as a pure strong S. If he's playing FS in a single high environment, we really haven't seen that yet.

You're kinda missing the point of this thread, and actually helping the OP's point by the technical verbiage and role play scenarios you're describing.  

 

You're talking in terms of Z/slot receiver......X receiver...etc. 

 

I think OP is saying that if we described the receivers we draft as being all of the following:  big, tall, fast, agile, good hands, good technique... (same with safeties big, tall, fast. agile, has good technique, can tackle).....having 3 receivers like that could allow us to play any receiver in any role, and not have to look for the "best slot WR" in the draft.

 

And when you have a deep draft at that position over several drafts, you can find 3 players like that in the early rounds.  Double up in one draft and get another the next draft.

 

As far as JT, I like JT.  But, he is from Wisconsin, and although he has traits that show he can do more than run between the tackles, that's what RBs in WI do a lot of.  And when you see how we used Mack, and how we use Hines, you gotta wonder if Ballard was looking at RBs as whomever was the "best between the Ts runner"...and it so happened that it was a guy who could do other things that added value so he had to go up and get him.   Instead of getting an all around RB, he had to go and get the best inside RB, because that's how Reich seems to use his RBs. 

 

The RB from LSU that KC drafted looks more dynamic...just like he did in college.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/16/2020 at 2:15 PM, NewColtsFan said:

Dear God.....    someone PLEASE get a gun and shoot me!   Shoot me right in the head!

 

I know there are a number of you who would love to do this — so I invite you all!    Anything to spare me from reading posts like this....   so painful!     :facepalm:

 

 

adam sandler somebody kill me please GIF

  • Haha 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Zoltan said:

 

I'm not saying he can't make throws, but I do think there has been a regression and like you have said he didn't start with a lot of arm strength and is more of a timing cerebral QB. The problem though that I have been seeing is that he has been late in his reads and he doesn't have the arm strength to get the ball to the WR before the DB recovers.

I don't think he's struggling with reads. IMO, the play calling and personnel packages stink. Need better WR spacing, more high % routes, more Mo, more Doyle, less Burton, less first read forces to TY, and more creativity. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, DougDew said:

You're kinda missing the point of this thread, and actually helping the OP's point by the technical verbiage and role play scenarios you're describing.  

Not missing the point at all. It's the norm pretty much for all teams. 

29 minutes ago, DougDew said:

 

You're talking in terms of Z/slot receiver......X receiver...etc. 

Almost every team, if not every team, uses them, and the terminology.

29 minutes ago, DougDew said:

 

I think OP is saying that if we described the receivers we draft as being all of the following:  big, tall, fast, agile, good hands, good technique... (same with safeties big, tall, fast. agile, has good technique, can tackle).....having 3 receivers like that could allow us to play any receiver in any role, and not have to look for the "best slot WR" in the draft.

Campbell was drafted because he was one of the top 3 overall graded WRs (regardless of position), not because he was the best slot. He wasn't even drafted to be slot. Reich/Ballard said almost immediately after the draft that he would start inside (slot) and be gradually worked outside (Z). And I'll further add that not all short guys are inside, or slots. Campbell really isn't short either. TY is short, and he's an outside guy. Tyreek Hill is a short guy that started inside too, and is now outside.

 

29 minutes ago, DougDew said:

 

And when you have a deep draft at that position over several drafts, you can find 3 players like that in the early rounds.  Double up in one draft and get another the next draft.

Yea sure, and forget about all other needs lol. You're being a little silly here. If Campbell didn't have the injury bug, everyone would be singing his praise. Pittman is still green WR, so dismissing him at this point is silly.

 

Sorry, there's just not a bunch of electric fast tall WRs that run good routes and have great hands in the draft. There's a reason the top WRs in the league are all sizes and all speeds. 

29 minutes ago, DougDew said:

As far as JT, I like JT.  But, he is from Wisconsin, and although he has traits that show he can do more than run between the tackles, that's what RBs in WI do a lot of.  And when you see how we used Mack, and how we use Hines, you gotta wonder if Ballard was looking at RBs as whomever was the "best between the Ts runner"...and it so happened that it was a guy who could do other things that added value so he had to go up and get him.   Instead of getting an all around RB, he had to go and get the best inside RB, because that's how Reich seems to use his RBs. 

 

The RB from LSU that KC drafted looks more dynamic...just like he did in college.

JT can hit the edge just fine, and isn't just a between the Ts guy. And he's caught the ball very well even though he didn't get a lot of opportunity at WI. You're expectations are silly this early. Mack needed time to get his timing right in our zone block scheme. Keep in mind the best scheme fit for JT per talking heads (given he came from WI) was power/man/gap, which we are not. So that too blows up this whole narrative about drafting for scheme. Every back that comes into a zone block scheme from a power scheme will need time to get timing down. 

 

Clyde Edwards-Helaire is a one gear back. His speed isn't near JTs. He's a good RB, but he's not a well rounded guy in terms of measurables, and certainly won't be hitting many home runs. His numbers are similar to JTs. He's also in an offense that gives him a clear advantage over JT. Pretty obvious KC's opponents are more worried trying to stop Mahommes, than KC's running game. It's just the opposite for the Colts, who are top 5 in rushing attempts.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/16/2020 at 10:43 AM, Smonroe said:

Scheme was only part of the selection process.  Talent assuredly came into play, as well as their character (how many college captains do we have?).

 

All the successful teams draft based on scheme and talent.  It makes no sense drafting a guy who's not going to fit the system.

 

I'll still take Ballard's draft success over most other GMs.  Who has done a better job the last three years?

Whats Ballards record since he has been the gm?

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Whats Ballards record since he has been the gm?

24-30

You are trying to reflect negativity without giving him the benefit of his circumstance. 

He did win GM of the year plus having to deal with Lucks departure. 

Not many hold that against him as you seem to be doing. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Not missing the point at all. It's the norm pretty much for all teams. 

Almost every team, if not every team, uses them, and the terminology.

Campbell was drafted because he was one of the top 3 overall graded WRs (regardless of position), not because he was the best slot. He wasn't even drafted to be slot. Reich/Ballard said almost immediately after the draft that he would start inside (slot) and be gradually worked outside (Z). And I'll further add that not all short guys are inside, or slots. Campbell really isn't short either. TY is short, and he's an outside guy. Tyreek Hill is a short guy that started inside too, and is now outside.

 

Yea sure, and forget about all other needs lol. You're being a little silly here. If Campbell didn't have the injury bug, everyone would be singing his praise. Pittman is still green WR, so dismissing him at this point is silly.

 

Sorry, there's just not a bunch of electric fast tall WRs that run good routes and have great hands in the draft. There's a reason the top WRs in the league are all sizes and all speeds. 

JT can hit the edge just fine, and isn't just a between the Ts guy. And he's caught the ball very well even though he didn't get a lot of opportunity at WI. You're expectations are silly this early. Mack needed time to get his timing right in our zone block scheme. Keep in mind the best scheme fit for JT per talking heads (given he came from WI) was power/man/gap, which we are not. So that too blows up this whole narrative about drafting for scheme. Every back that comes into a zone block scheme from a power scheme will need time to get timing down. 

 

Clyde Edwards-Helaire is a one gear back. His speed isn't near JTs. He's a good RB, but he's not a well rounded guy in terms of measurables, and certainly won't be hitting many home runs. His numbers are similar to JTs. He's also in an offense that gives him a clear advantage over JT. Pretty obvious KC's opponents are more worried trying to stop Mahommes, than KC's running game. It's just the opposite for the Colts, who are top 5 in rushing attempts.

As far as RBs, I'm simply pointing out that despite any all around talent possessed by our RBs, under Ballard our RBs have been used more between the Ts that what I think would be more balanced, both with Pagano and Reich.  It seems there is a bit too much role playing in that when we want to throw to a RB, its substitution city.  I've always been disappointed in the inability of calling pass plays for Mack, because he's very good in space, and not really a power guy, IMO.  And now the one RB we do draft is probably viewed as simply a bigger, faster Mack, to be used the same way. 

 

Just reflecting on the days during the Steve Young 49 era when Roger Craig and Tom Rathman manned the backfield for 3 downs and either RB did everything, run edge, run off T, catch.  They were both 2nd or 3rd round RBs.  Its a reflection of the NFL as a whole, situational substitutions which begets situational drafting, and IMO, makes offenses look predictable.  NFL uses H backs now, who only block or catch passes.  We run Hines between the Ts as some sort of deflection, when everyone knows his real role is to catch passes when he's in the game.

 

As far as WR, I'm not quibbling with any draft pick.  My point is that if we had 3 Claypools or 3 Pittmans and assign each WR whatever role during whatever play was needed, I think we would be in a better situation than looking at Pittman as an X, then trying to move on to drafting other WRs with different attributes to fill different situations.  With several classes of deep talent at the WR position, I think its possible to get 3 Claypools and not forego other needs.

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Whats Ballards record since he has been the gm?

I honestly don't see how anyone can count 2017 when he 1st took over with Grigson's crap roster and Luck was out, he went 4-12 so yeah his record looks bad because of that of course. That fits your negative narrative though, he didn't have the coach he wanted either. From 2018-2020 he has been 21-18 counting the playoffs which isn't great but above average. Than you even have to factor in Luck left the team right before the season started last year on top of it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think there's one part of this argument that been a bit neglected, so I'll address it here.

 

It's only in the first 10-15 picks in the draft where you have an opportunity at sure-fire players that are great at everything.  Once you get past that point, you have to start making a decision between a player who is pretty good and everything and a player who is great at one thing.

 

I'll give two examples of Colts players, both defensive and offensive.

Tyquan Lewis vs Kemiko Turay

Lewis has size.  He has some get-off to him.  He can play both 3 technique and end.  He's pretty good at everything, and could be a 3-down player.  But he's not exceptional at anything, and will probably never be big play talent.

Turay is long and lean.  He's got great speed off the edge.  But he's more of a one trick pony.  He does one thing exceptionally well.  He's not a 3-down player.  But he does have that potential to give you the big play when you need it most.

Michael Pittman vs Parris Campbell

Pittman has size, leverage, route running ability, and hands.  He's pretty good at everything.  But he's not exceptional at anything.  He'll be on the field for all 3 downs.  However...

Campbell has blazing speed.  He was a gadget player as OSU, and he'll most likely remain a gadget player in the NFL.  He still has work to do to be a 3-down player.  But he does one thing off the charts well.  And can give you a big play when you need it most.

 

As long as we draft beyond the first 10-15 picks, we will always have to make this choice.  A guy who can do everything pretty well vs a guy who can do one thing exceptionally well.

Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, John Hammonds said:

I think there's one part of this argument that been a bit neglected, so I'll address it here.

 

It's only in the first 10-15 picks in the draft where you have an opportunity at sure-fire players that are great at everything.  Once you get past that point, you have to start making a decision between a player who is pretty good and everything and a player who is great at one thing.

 

I'll give two examples of Colts players, both defensive and offensive.

Tyquan Lewis vs Kemiko Turay

Lewis has size.  He has some get-off to him.  He can play both 3 technique and end.  He's pretty good at everything, and could be a 3-down player.  But he's not exceptional at anything, and will probably never be big play talent.

Turay is long and lean.  He's got great speed off the edge.  But he's more of a one trick pony.  He does one thing exceptionally well.  He's not a 3-down player.  But he does have that potential to give you the big play when you need it most.

Michael Pittman vs Parris Campbell

Pittman has size, leverage, route running ability, and hands.  He's pretty good at everything.  But he's not exceptional at anything.  He'll be on the field for all 3 downs.  However...

Campbell has blazing speed.  He was a gadget player as OSU, and he'll most likely remain a gadget player in the NFL.  He still has work to do to be a 3-down player.  But he does one thing off the charts well.  And can give you a big play when you need it most.

 

As long as we draft beyond the first 10-15 picks, we will always have to make this choice.  A guy who can do everything pretty well vs a guy who can do one thing exceptionally well.

Role playing players are not without value, that is reality

 

I see Pittman as having more overall talent than Campbell, and Turay as having more talent than Lewis (primarily because he can be a situational EDGE).  But both WRs and both defensive players were drafted at about the same point.  That's the issue, IMO.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Thread of the Week

  • Topics

  • Posts

    • Last year I went to 4 games, some of the gameday gifts included a Quentin Nelson can cozy, a towel with Dwight Freeney's name and number on it, a car flag with the Colts logo on it, and a blue Colts Santa hat.  Then, I received a "For the Shoe" shirt and a Colts facemask at the Jets game this year.  I guess I just got a little spoiled with the cool gifts.
    • The East is a disaster 
    • Foles is a better QB than we have given him credit for. He’s keen on shedding the image he’s a relief pitcher and not a starting pitcher. He’s getting better with time and reps. Bills vs Patriots - those 2 games will show if they’re pretenders about division contention. Unfortunately their run D matches negatively vs Patriots strengths of running the ball. They’ve also come up short vs AFC heavyweights Titans and Chiefs so far.   Only the Steelers have the passing offense to compete vs Titans, Ravens do not. Their upcoming games will be very interesting.
    • One week makes a difference - where are the guys who wanted Cam and Andy Dalton for a box of biscuits?  Dalton looks like prime time Dalton, woefully inadequate.   I still firmly believed all along it was Reich not opening things up and calling too conservative of a game plan most of the time that didn’t help Rivers and the offense. Ironically, Luck was down 0-21 in the Texans 4th down failure game before things were opened up in 2018. Deja Vu???   Lets see how Frank builds upon this.
    • Winning against the bad teams is what more to happen 
  • Members

×
×
  • Create New...