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DLine very unColt like Today


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Looks similar to what I think.  I expected the Dline to "look" dominant last week. 

 

1st half they struggled against the run, but i think another factor in how they "looked" Sunday was MN running longer developiong plays than Jax.  I would expect to see teams try to emulate the Jax gameplan when they can against the Colties in the future.

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10 hours ago, Nickster said:

Incorrect.  The two quotes you quoted from me says what is looked for 4 man fronts.  It is not necessary for  3Ts to get tackles and sacks.   It’s not a bad thing, but their job is to penetrate and take up blocks primarily. Other guys then clean up the trash usually.  They usually try to push rather than rip or swim in the rush.  Getting skinny in the pass rush Too ofIn in manageable downs will often cause problems if their are giant lanes to run through have problems especially with mobile QBs.

 

there is the occasional guy like Donald and Sap that is really able to do it all, and yeah that’s awesome, but it’s not the primary job.
 

and I said edge guys are different.  

Stop the spin. Even the title of this thread is DLine. Now you're trying to weave some of the stuff I said into your argument to make your own.

 

We didn't pay a ton of $ for Buckner not to get pressures/sacks/KDs/QBHs.

 

A 3T has a different job vs the pass, and a different job vs the run. I've defined both. It's a very basic 4-3 concept. 3Ts that aren't successful vs the pass don't get the big contracts. 3Ts like Kinlaw don't go high in the draft unless they are successful vs the pass. We even tried to convert a DE (Autry) from the Raiders, who had success vs the pass, into our 3T. Didn't work out as well as expected, which is why we shelled out the money for Buckner. In short, there's a lot of crossover traits between a 3T and DE when talking about pass D.

 

All that said, yes, like I said, during the run, their primary job is to T if able, and keep the guard off the LB so they can clean up.

 

Basic stuff. 

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1 minute ago, EastStreet said:

Stop the spin. Even the title of this thread is DLine. Now you're trying to weave some of the stuff I said into your argument to make your own.

 

We didn't pay a ton of $ for Buckner not to get pressures/sacks/KDs/QBHs.

 

A 3T has a different job vs the pass, and a different job vs the run. I've defined both. It's a very basic 4-3 concept. 3Ts that aren't successful vs the pass don't get the big contracts. 3Ts like Kinlaw don't go high in the draft unless they are successful vs the pass. We even tried to convert a DE (Autry) from the Raiders, who had success vs the pass, into our 3T. Didn't work out as well as expected, which is why we shelled out the money for Buckner. In short, there's a lot of crossover traits between a 3T and DE when talking about pass D.

 

All that said, yes, like I said, during the run, their primary job is to T if able, and keep the guard off the LB so they can clean up.

 

Basic stuff. 

I truly don’t understand what You think my spin is.  I started the thread and said that the dline was looking dominant Yesterday.  
 

and all I’ve said is DTs don’t have to record a bunch of tackles or sacks to be dominant in either run or pass rush.  I guess you disagree with that.

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6 hours ago, chad72 said:

 

^^^This. We played man more and stunted/blitzed a bit more as well. Eberflus' change in schemes to mix it up (finally someone talked to him about it :)) had the biggest impact.

Just pray it continues. Not saying we don't need to zone up at times, but just need a good mix and balance. 

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1 hour ago, Nickster said:

I truly don’t understand what You think my spin is.  I started the thread and said that the dline was looking dominant Yesterday.  
 

and all I’ve said is DTs don’t have to record a bunch of tackles or sacks to be dominant in either run or pass rush.  I guess you disagree with that.

You attacked the use of stats as a means to grade the DL after I said they played well the prior week too. Then tried to narrow to DE. Then tried to treat NTs and 3Ts the same. You also seem to diminish the symbiosis between the DL and DBs (they both can make each other's job easier or harder).

 

The funny thing though, is (in terms of "spin").... You say things like "the dline was dominant and gave up nothing on the ground and pressured the QB", then say "They looked good today and pedestrian last week", when actually we gave up less on the ground vs Jax and had the same number of sacks. So in your own words you say giving up "nothing on the ground and pressured the QB" are key indicators, then argue against Ts, pressures, QBHs, KDs, and sacks, which all are direct measurement of the things you yourself used as an argument. 

 

You're simply not consistent, and contradict even yourself when challenged.

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9 hours ago, EastStreet said:

You attacked the use of stats as a means to grade the DL after I said they played well the prior week too. Then tried to narrow to DE. Then tried to treat NTs and 3Ts the same. You also seem to diminish the symbiosis between the DL and DBs (they both can make each other's job easier or harder).

 

The funny thing though, is (in terms of "spin").... You say things like "the dline was dominant and gave up nothing on the ground and pressured the QB", then say "They looked good today and pedestrian last week", when actually we gave up less on the ground vs Jax and had the same number of sacks. So in your own words you say giving up "nothing on the ground and pressured the QB" are key indicators, then argue against Ts, pressures, QBHs, KDs, and sacks, which all are direct measurement of the things you yourself used as an argument. 

 

You're simply not consistent, and contradict even yourself when challenged.


I’m a little surprised you don’t see a difference in dline play between  the two games.  I don’t have access to any of the services but I would suspect that The grades are significantly higher for the dline in Sunday compared to the Jax game.

 

but Sunday was even more dominant than i thought, and I thought it was dominant.  Between the opening drive during which MN gained 75 and scored a FG and their last meaningless drive for 75 yds and a TD, the Colts gave up a total of 25 other yds. 
 

against Jax, we gave up around 60 yds rushing in the 1st half and the dline looked less than dominant then imo.  Jax had 5 of 8 drives during which they scored if you throw out the kneel downs at the end of each half.
 

Percentage of  tackles and sacks for linemen were very similar in both games.  You said that colts had more pressures during the mn game and I said probably a function of Jax short passing attack.

 

buckner had 6 tackles v Jax and 3 v mn.  He had no sacks v Jax but 1.5 tfl.  He had 1.5 sacks v mn but no other tfl.  Statistically counting sacks, tackles, and tfl he was “better” V Jax.  But you probably don’t think He was better Iwould suspect.

 

i would be shocked if the dline didn’t grade out higher v. Mn than Jax even though the tackles, tfl, and sacks were very similar over all.

 

im sure teams keep advanced stats that show a clearer pic of when a d lineman wins or loses on each Play that doesn’t necessarily match easier to see stats like tackles, etc.

 

do you have access to the grades?  I’d really be interested in the units grades in the two games.

 

i agree there can be other factors like obviously opponent strength and the play of LBs and dbs.  And mn looks like they might suck pretty bad surprisingly to me.  I think the main problem with lasts weeks game imo is the LBs are weak in coverage and Indy is as a result susceptible to short passing attacks.  
 

that being said, rarely do dlines dominate the LOs like the colts did.

 

i maintain that a guy like Buckner and dts in general could have nit recorded a sack, had only a couple of tackles and be more dominant than In a game where he recorded a few tackles and a couple of sacks.

 

 

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9 hours ago, EastStreet said:

You attacked the use of stats as a means to grade the DL after I said they played well the prior week too. Then tried to narrow to DE. Then tried to treat NTs and 3Ts the same. You also seem to diminish the symbiosis between the DL and DBs (they both can make each other's job easier or harder).

 

The funny thing though, is (in terms of "spin").... You say things like "the dline was dominant and gave up nothing on the ground and pressured the QB", then say "They looked good today and pedestrian last week", when actually we gave up less on the ground vs Jax and had the same number of sacks. So in your own words you say giving up "nothing on the ground and pressured the QB" are key indicators, then argue against Ts, pressures, QBHs, KDs, and sacks, which all are direct measurement of the things you yourself used as an argument. 

 

You're simply not consistent, and contradict even yourself when challenged.


FWIW I thought this from last weeks mail bag was funny because it seems to support what both you and I are saying.  If what I understand your point being is the dline including Buckner played similarly well both games and my belief that 3techs don’t need to record sacks and tfls to be dominant.


: “I can understand why fans who watched last Sunday's opener against the Jaguars, and then checked out the box score afterwards, might come away with the conclusion that DeForest Buckner didn't have much of an impact on the game. After all, the Colts traded away their 13th-overall pick in this year's NFL Draft to acquire Buckner, and then immediately handed him a huge contract extension, so expectations are high. I get that. But looking back at the film, I think what's evident is Buckner deserves a little bit more credit beyond his stat-sheet line of six tackles (one for a loss). As the defensive line started to gel in the second half — that's when it limited Jacksonville to six combined rushing yards and had three of its four sacks — you began to feel Buckner much more consistently, and the attention placed on him allowed for others (I thought linebacker Bobby Okereke was fantastic in the second half) to make plays. Buckner also had the eighth-best week among all NFL interior defensive linemen in run stop win rate in Week 1, according to ESPN. Now, moving forward, of course you want to see more of those impact-type plays out of Buckner — sacks, big run stuffs, forced fumbles, defensive touchdowns, etc. But I think it's also important to to remember there are other ways for the three-tech to impact the game, and Buckner did a pretty good job of that last Sunday.”

 

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20 hours ago, Nickster said:


FWIW I thought this from last weeks mail bag was funny because it seems to support what both you and I are saying.  If what I understand your point being is the dline including Buckner played similarly well both games and my belief that 3techs don’t need to record sacks and tfls to be dominant.


: “I can understand why fans who watched last Sunday's opener against the Jaguars, and then checked out the box score afterwards, might come away with the conclusion that DeForest Buckner didn't have much of an impact on the game. After all, the Colts traded away their 13th-overall pick in this year's NFL Draft to acquire Buckner, and then immediately handed him a huge contract extension, so expectations are high. I get that. But looking back at the film, I think what's evident is Buckner deserves a little bit more credit beyond his stat-sheet line of six tackles (one for a loss). As the defensive line started to gel in the second half — that's when it limited Jacksonville to six combined rushing yards and had three of its four sacks — you began to feel Buckner much more consistently, and the attention placed on him allowed for others (I thought linebacker Bobby Okereke was fantastic in the second half) to make plays. Buckner also had the eighth-best week among all NFL interior defensive linemen in run stop win rate in Week 1, according to ESPN. Now, moving forward, of course you want to see more of those impact-type plays out of Buckner — sacks, big run stuffs, forced fumbles, defensive touchdowns, etc. But I think it's also important to to remember there are other ways for the three-tech to impact the game, and Buckner did a pretty good job of that last Sunday.”

In replying to both the above posts, I've never said a 3T has to pile up sacks every game to be a presence. I listed a bunch of indicators aside from sacks (as passing game indicators). We all know run game grading is harder, but Ts, and AVG are key elements. But it was very clear in the Jax game the DL played pretty well after settling down. The issue that game was giving up some short fields, and playing with too much cushion that made Minshew look like a surgeon. If you look at Minshew's pas charts, he ate us up with quick and short throws. Cousins not near as short. We outplayed Jax in most areas, just did some dumb stuff at bad times (not talking about just the INTs).

 

That said, both opponents were mediocre at best, but likely closer to bad. In other words, folks need to be cautious before crowning our D. Our D should absolutely be better this year, but thus far, we've played some bad teams. The OLs on both are poor. We also have two very bad Os in the next two games, so I'm guessing the hype will continue. The true test will be when we run into a good team with a good OL.

 

I checked for advanced stats earlier, still not out for the MN game. What I actually said though, was I expect the performance to be similar, but pressures and those types of things to be a little higher (even though sacks were lower) given MN passed more and Cousins likely had a higher time to throw. We already know neither team ran well against us. That's a muddy issue too. Jax was using a UDFA as their starter with a 26 ranked OL, and Cook was running behind a 23rd ranked OL with injuries. And we've really had a good run D anyways, so not surprising our already good run D limited bad and injured OLs in that space.

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On 9/20/2020 at 7:36 PM, Nickster said:

Sacks are important for edge guys.  Interior linemen could go without sacks or tackles and b utterly dominant.

 

its not bad for DL to get sacks and tfl but it’s not essential.  Taking up blocks is the key.  I think we had the same number of sacks the first Two weeks, but this week they dominated.  Last week they did not.  They actually weren’t bad on closer reflection but they weren’t dominant,

 

On 9/21/2020 at 4:11 AM, Nickster said:

Incorrect.  The two quotes you quoted from me says what is looked for 4 man fronts.  It is not necessary for  3Ts to get tackles and sacks.   It’s not a bad thing, but their job is to penetrate and take up blocks primarily. Other guys then clean up the trash usually.  They usually try to push rather than rip or swim in the rush.  Getting skinny in the pass rush Too ofIn in manageable downs will often cause problems if their are giant lanes to run through have problems especially with mobile QBs.

 

there is the occasional guy like Donald and Sap that is really able to do it all, and yeah that’s awesome, but it’s not the primary job.

 


 

and I said edge guys are different.  

Chris Ballard has been the Colts GM for four years.  And for that entire time he has said that our 3-tech is the driving force of our defense.  So I’m confident when I say that Ballard would strongly disagree with your view of the importance of the defensive tackle.    Ballard is paying Buckner huge money to be a game wrecker, as close to Aaron Donald as he can be.   Even the Donald stats that you showed in another post were completely mis-used. 


Donald’s greatest year was so good that regression was almost inevitable.  But even the 12.5 sack and 80 tackle season  that he followed with would be a career year for almost all DT’s, so I don’t think it’s a good example for you to use to support an argument.   Ballard would be quite happy if Buckner recorded 12.5 sacks and 80 tackles.  He wants Buckner stat sheet stuffed with large numbers.   He’s not paying Buckner big money to hold up O-lineman and let our LB’s record all the tackles.  He wants big production in every category imaginable. 

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7 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Chris Ballard has been the Colts GM for four years.  And for that entire time he has said that our 3-tech is the driving force of our defense.  So I’m confident when I say that Ballard would strongly disagree with your view of the importance of the defensive tackle.    Ballard is paying Buckner huge money to be a game wrecker, as close to Aaron Donald as he can be.   Even the Donald stats that you showed in another post were completely mis-used. 


Donald’s greatest year was so good that regression was almost inevitable.  But even the 12.5 sack and 80 tackle season  that he followed with would be a career year for almost all DT’s, so I don’t think it’s a good example for you to use to support an argument.   Ballard would be quite happy if Buckner recorded 12.5 sacks and 80 tackles.  He wants Buckner stat sheet stuffed with large numbers.   He’s not paying Buckner big money to hold up O-lineman and let our LB’s record all the tackles.  He wants big production in every category imaginable. 

Dude I don't know what you think you read from me but I think the 3T is the most important defensive position right now.

 

According to ESPN the most tackes Donald has ever recored is 69 in 2015 and then 59 in the 20 sack season.  He has never been out of the 40s in any other year.  There is only one Aaron Donald. If you will browse through the easily measurable stasts of the top 3Ts, I think you'll find that a lot of them don't put up big numbers or from year to year the "numbers" are inconsistent but their player grades aren't necessarily.

 

If for instance you look at Buckner's game Sunday, he was awesome.  But he only recorded 3 tackles and he did have 1.5 sacks and a safety, but if you actually look at he safety, Buckner only scored it because Autry slipped off the tackle and Cousins kinda stumbled into him.

 

HOWEVER, Buckner was the key to the play from the beginning.  Autry was running a stunt outside of Buckner and Buckner's job on this play is to essentially make a down block on the G and get his big ace int he hole so that Autry can loop around,  If Autry doesn't slide off or if Cousnins stumbles a different way and someonw else cleans up the trash, then Buckner's stat line would be "unimpressive"  He would have had 2 tackles with a .5 sack.  But he would have been no less dominant because it was the wrecking ball type of play that doesn't show up in the stat sheet.  

 

Check out the play, it is a case in point of what I am talking about in that a 3T doesn't have to put up big "numbers" in the easily identifiable stats to be dominant.

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38 minutes ago, Nickster said:

Dude I don't know what you think you read from me but I think the 3T is the most important defensive position right now.

 

According to ESPN the most tackes Donald has ever recored is 69 in 2015 and then 59 in the 20 sack season.  He has never been out of the 40s in any other year.  There is only one Aaron Donald. If you will browse through the easily measurable stasts of the top 3Ts, I think you'll find that a lot of them don't put up big numbers or from year to year the "numbers" are inconsistent but their player grades aren't necessarily.

 

If for instance you look at Buckner's game Sunday, he was awesome.  But he only recorded 3 tackles and he did have 1.5 sacks and a safety, but if you actually look at he safety, Buckner only scored it because Autry slipped off the tackle and Cousins kinda stumbled into him.

 

HOWEVER, Buckner was the key to the play from the beginning.  Autry was running a stunt outside of Buckner and Buckner's job on this play is to essentially make a down block on the G and get his big ace int he hole so that Autry can loop around,  If Autry doesn't slide off or if Cousnins stumbles a different way and someonw else cleans up the trash, then Buckner's stat line would be "unimpressive"  He would have had 2 tackles with a .5 sack.  But he would have been no less dominant because it was the wrecking ball type of play that doesn't show up in the stat sheet.  

 

Check out the play, it is a case in point of what I am talking about in that a 3T doesn't have to put up big "numbers" in the easily identifiable stats to be dominant.

FYI - the advanced stats were pub'd on one of the sites. I've included them in a thread (Stat heads) this morning.

 

 

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58 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

FYI - the advanced stats were pub'd on one of the sites. I've included them in a thread (Stat heads) this morning.

 

 

Thanks.  How much does that cost?

 

I don't know if I've ever bought anything like that (I'm pretty close to a dollar), but I can't find that stuff for free.

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9 minutes ago, Nickster said:

Thanks.  How much does that cost?

 

I don't know if I've ever bought anything like that (I'm pretty close to a dollar), but I can't find that stuff for free.

I haven't bought any subscriptions for a while now. PFR (link below) gives a lot of info for free. You just have to wait till mid week for their advanced stuff. Nextgen also gives some interesting stuff. I really love their game center charts and passing charts. There's plenty out there for free.

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/202009200clt.htm

 

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/game-center

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3 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

I haven't bought any subscriptions for a while now. PFR (link below) gives a lot of info for free. You just have to wait till mid week for their advanced stuff. Nextgen also gives some interesting stuff. I really love their game center charts and passing charts. There's plenty out there for free.

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/202009200clt.htm

 

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/game-center

great. free.  That's my favorite price.

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