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Can we please stop with the Zone D


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The key is getting pressure and sacks on the opposing QBs 

There is nothing wrong with zone defense IF pressure and sacks can be had. 

Even man to man defenses will struggle without those two things. 

Give the opposing QB the time and he will find open receivers.

 

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5 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

The key is getting pressure and sacks on the opposing QBs 

There is nothing wrong with zone defense IF pressure and sacks can be had. 

Even man to man defenses will struggle without those two things. 

Give the opposing QB the time and he will find open receivers.

 

Agreed, I do think we need to disguise zone vs man to man a bit better and keep O's guessing. Problem is Rhodes cant play man to man at this point so may need to start using Rock and Moore outside and Carrie inside much more.

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Not a huge fan of of our basic cover 2 but it can be very effective especially when the field shrinks. Now the outside corners playing 5 to 10 yards from the line giving free releases to wr drives me crazy . 

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3 hours ago, Chucklez said:

How many times does our coaching staff need to see the zone defense not work before we finally decide to abandon it? At least for the majority of the game? The scheme should have gone the way of the immobile QB by now.... It is an outdated, predictable amd weak scheme that even QBs like Minshew can pick apart and make them look like top 5 QB material. Sure you can say that Minshew has shown some promise and arguably isnt a bottom tier QB and even has some good upside.... but let's not kid ourselves, he's no Patrick Mahomes / Russel Wilson / Drew Brees etc....

 

I for one want to see us get more inventive, let's play more man-to-man... let's do ANYTHING different, because we sure as hell aren't doing anything good in the pass defense department, nor have we for quite some time. 

 

Let's make people beat our players, not the scheme. I have seen too many times where our defenders are playing their zone, so technically doing their job.... just to watch someone find that open soft spot with no one within 5-10 yards of them when they are 8 yards down field from the line of scrimmage, and then the get another 4 or 5 yards after the catch as well.

 

Let's get more aggressive, let's give our players the opportunity to get their hands on some balls.... not just "prevent the big plays"..... Teams take what you give them and if you keep giving them 8 or 9 yard pass plays, they will dink and dunk you all the way down the field. Give us some hope, because it is soul destroying watching teams like the Jags dismantle a defense that should have some promise to it. Sure we haven't got a top 10 defense... but what we watched on Sunday night was like watching a pre-pubescent teenager trying to explain to you that their life is hard, whilst they attempt to hook up with Scarlett Johansson... tedious and quite frankly embarrassing for everyone involved.

Either Eberflus is arrogant, stubborn and just not creative. Or he just not trust his players to play more man. Someone needa to be held accountable. Eberflus is not a good coordinator or the GM is not providing him with talented players. It may simple be a combination of both

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1 hour ago, crazycolt1 said:

The key is getting pressure and sacks on the opposing QBs 

There is nothing wrong with zone defense IF pressure and sacks can be had. 

Even man to man defenses will struggle without those two things. 

Give the opposing QB the time and he will find open receivers.

 

I disagree somewhat.   Yes, pressure matters. However, I think qbs are just to good now adays to play a primarily zone defense. Let me be clear. Minshew had a 95% completion percentage. Didnt matter how much pressure u got as he was throwing quick short passes. Colts got out coached.Guys would beg for 95% completion rate at a pro-day throwing against the wind.

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11 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

I disagree somewhat.   Yes, pressure matters. However, I think qbs are just to good now adays to play a primarily zone defense. Let me be clear. Minshew had a 95% completion percentage. Didnt matter how much pressure u got as he was throwing quick short passes. Colts got out coached.Guys would beg for 95% completion rate at a pro-day throwing against the wind.

Even at 95% he still only threw for 150 yards. He didn't light us up by no means. There wasn't much yardage after the catch so things were pretty contained. Held them to 91 yards rushing. They only had 241 total yards. 

If we had had a tough pass rush and put Minshew on his butt a few times we would have won that game. 

 

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1 hour ago, crazycolt1 said:

The key is getting pressure and sacks on the opposing QBs 

There is nothing wrong with zone defense IF pressure and sacks can be had. 

Even man to man defenses will struggle without those two things. 

Give the opposing QB the time and he will find open receivers.

 

good point, i thought our d line would have done a lot better

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What do you guys think of the old Dolphin's defense where they had a four man front with two fatties in the middle and two small, super fast guys on the edges lined up wide, with tremendous corners.  You would force teams to run through big guys who specialize in stopping the run, you'd always have two guys coming who specialize in blitzing, and you'd force the opponent to make plays against tight coverage by the corners who are the cornerstone of your team.  Nothing flashy, not trying to trick people, but forcing people to make plays against pieces who specialize in what they know is coming.  Would that work in today's NFL?

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7 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Even at 95% he still only threw for 150 yards. He didn't light us up by no means. There wasn't much yardage after the catch so things were pretty contained. Held them to 91 yards rushing. They only had 241 total yards. 

If we had had a tough pass rush and put Minshew on his butt a few times we would have won that game. 

 

So can u imagine what a good qb is going to do to this D?  I have seen little growth in this defense under Eberflus' coordinating and Ballard,s drafting.

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37 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

So can u imagine what a good qb is going to do to this D?  I have seen little growth in this defense under Eberflus' coordinating and Ballard,s drafting.

I don't expect Eberflus to be back next season.

I hope he proves me wrong. 

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Did we blitz at all in this game?  Did we even show it?  If we did I don't remember it.  The majority opinion is our zone needs pressure to be effective.  We seem to rely on our front four all the time.  Another problem is our linebackers can't cover.  Eberflus needs to get a little more creative and less predictable.  I have a feeling our defense is pretty easy to game plan for. 

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5 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

The key is getting pressure and sacks on the opposing QBs 

There is nothing wrong with zone defense IF pressure and sacks can be had. 

Even man to man defenses will struggle without those two things. 

Give the opposing QB the time and he will find open receivers.

 

 

But surely the QB can throw the ball quicker against zone coverage if his receivers are open straight away? Thus giving the front 4 less time to get to the QB.

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4 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

Even at 95% he still only threw for 150 yards. He didn't light us up by no means. There wasn't much yardage after the catch so things were pretty contained. Held them to 91 yards rushing. They only had 241 total yards. 

If we had had a tough pass rush and put Minshew on his butt a few times we would have won that game. 

 

Because Rivers kept playing catch with their DBs and giving them short fields..... They didnt need 400 yards of offense to beat us. They just took what we gave them (those 5-8 yard dink and dunks) chewed up the clock and slowly sucked the life out of us. We could not stop them.... at all. It didnt matter if the field was only 30 yards long or if it was 1000 yards long, they would have just kept getting 5-8 yard gains per play and killed us that way.

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PFF graded our dline extremly poor outside of Autry and Buckner. Houston and Muhammad are in low 60's, Stewart about 55, Banogu 42. So no pressure. DBs made their part: kept plays in front of them, no big plays.

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12 minutes ago, K-148 said:

And playing man defense is expensive. Ramsey got 21 mil. per year... to cover 1 receiver at a time. Imagine playing man against Evans, Goodwin, Howard, Gronk.

Cool and saving money has gotten us what exactly?

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1 minute ago, Mr.Debonair said:

Cool and saving money has gotten us what exactly?

You can't be half pregnant. So if you are not ready to field a team to play man against best, play zone.

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16 minutes ago, K-148 said:

And playing man defense is expensive. Ramsey got 21 mil. per year... to cover 1 receiver at a time. Imagine playing man against Evans, Goodwin, Howard, Gronk.

 

You can mix it up with man and zone with the personnel we have, even on the same play on different sides. A lot of teams do that without marquee CB investment.

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3 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

You can mix it up with man and zone with the personnel we have, even on the same play on different sides. A lot of teams do that without marquee CB investment.

Sure. But Minshew complited 19 passes to 10 different receivers. No true n. 1 receiver. It's not like some star receiver burnt our secondary playing zone.

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The whole defense played bad except for Autry. The defensive line was really bad and our safeties were just terrible. Hooker and Willis were bad picks by Ballard. And what did we expect from Rhodes after 2 awful seasons with Minnesota. Bad decision by the team for signing him just because we have 2 of his former coaches. Of all people they should have known he is finished. And last of all Eberflus needs to go. This defense has been bad for a long time.

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6 minutes ago, K-148 said:

Sure. But Minshew complited 19 passes to 10 different receivers. No true n. 1 receiver. It's not like some star receiver burnt our secondary playing zone.

 

To negate pass rush, QBs release the ball quicker but if you play man coverage, you can disrupt passes better to allow the pass rush a tad extra time to get to the QB. If you trot out nickel and dime formations or even star safety formations with 3 safeties, you can match up well against 3 WR/1 TE or 2 WR/2 TE formations. 

 

Issues during Dungy days was you had elite pass rushers and knew QBs had to get rid of the ball faster but refused to play man coverage with the same Tim Jennings that played man in Chicago after he left us. So, yes, we can afford to play man coverage with our DBs and LBs as necessary based on what the situation demands if you need that extra second or so for our DL.

 

If you think our pass rush is no good, then all bets are off because you can play man coverage for only so long. You may not need to play it all the time if your goal is to keep things before the 1st down marker on a 3rd and long and tackle with zone coverage but there is definitely a place for man coverage with our personnel. That is my point.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, K-148 said:

Sure. But Minshew complited 19 passes to 10 different receivers. No true n. 1 receiver. It's not like some star receiver burnt our secondary playing zone.

I think thats sort of the point - even pedestrian WR's (no true #1) wrecked this zone defense. What happens when Thielen shows up next week? If the zone can't stop Chark from getting wide open for TD's what hope is there to stop Thielen with the same zone coverage? At least a little more press coverage and/or man coverage might disrupt timing and throwing lanes on quick throws allowing the pass rush to activate.

 

Even if we factor in the 4 sacks as incomplete passes, Minshew was still 19/24 (80%) which is still WAY above acceptable completion percentage. This team will need about 12 sacks per game to get to a reasonable completion percentage with this current defense.

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I think it is becoming obvious that a 'one-size-fits-all' defensive scheme (like Cover-2) is doomed to fail. A flex (zone/man) scheme based on a deceptive standard looks is more complicated - even complex - but that's what it's going to take to be successful.

 

I think we have the physical talent to do this. Hopefully, we have the mental talent and discipline to pull it off.

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43 minutes ago, Mitch Connors said:

I think thats sort of the point - even pedestrian WR's (no true #1) wrecked this zone defense. What happens when Thielen shows up next week? If the zone can't stop Chark from getting wide open for TD's what hope is there to stop Thielen with the same zone coverage? At least a little more press coverage and/or man coverage might disrupt timing and throwing lanes on quick throws allowing the pass rush to activate.

 

Even if we factor in the 4 sacks as incomplete passes, Minshew was still 19/24 (80%) which is still WAY above acceptable completion percentage. This team will need about 12 sacks per game to get to a reasonable completion percentage with this current defense.

Zone defense like speed limit. Every car can reach it, no car allowed to brake it.

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A) We need pressure by the D-line for the zone defense to work

 

B) We will not have any pressure by the D-line if the opposing team's receivers get a free release and the QB gets the ball out quickly, negating any pressure/pass rush our D-line might have provided.

 

C) The soft zone defense allows opposing teams to complete short & intermediate passes at an extremely high rate, allowing them to keep the ball and move up the field and into scoring position.

 

D) The bend-but-don't-break defensive concept is flawed. It allows the opposing teams more opportunities to score and allows the other team to control the clock.

 

E) It's now become a fact that both Drew Brees and Minshew have put up over 95% completion rates against this defense, which is an all-time bad record to have for Eberflus' defense. Eberflus' defense owns 2 of the 4 worst performances in NFL history. It's time to cut him loose. It's been time, but now it's glaringly obvious.

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Can we stop with this misguided notion that zone defense doesn't work anymore?  The problem isn't that the Colts are a zone defense, it's how they're running and executing it. 

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Zone defense is supposed to prevent the QB from throwing deep passes over the top of the backs. With that in mind, it worked. The problem was our short and intermediate defense was torn to shreds. I believe the thought process from Eberflus was that the linebackers would be able to have the range to cover those areas. They would allow the completion, but stop the extra yardage by tackling, resulting in a minimal gain. 

 

That didn't go according to plan. Since it was game 1, with no preseason we probably saw a very basic scheme. It's up to the coaches to figure a better way to disguise and change things up this coming weekend. 

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2 hours ago, J@son said:

Can we stop with this misguided notion that zone defense doesn't work anymore?  The problem isn't that the Colts are a zone defense, it's how they're running and executing it. 

Wasn't Legion of Boom Cover 3 zone defense for the most part?

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What is it about Colts DCs being so afraid to play aggressive? Every time you play so far off the line of scrimmage gives them a better shot at completing a pass. 

 

Are our CBs so horrendous they have to play zone to be considered an NFL player? 

 

At this point its easier to win a shoot out than this bend and eventually give up a TD anyways defense. 

 

 

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16 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

The key is getting pressure and sacks on the opposing QBs 

There is nothing wrong with zone defense IF pressure and sacks can be had. 

Even man to man defenses will struggle without those two things. 

Give the opposing QB the time and he will find open receivers.

 

 

Harder to get sacks when the ball is out of the QBs hands in a hot flash.

The pressure wasn't getting home, and when it did, it wasn't really in spots that mattered.

 

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They need to mix up coverages, and play with better technique at the snap. If they play off and allow quick completions, it's going to be a problem.

 

Trying to boil it down to man vs zone -- like people always do -- misses the point. The problem isn't zone. If we played man with the kind of cushion and technique they played on Sunday, the results wouldn't have been any better.

 

Also, while the pass rush wasn't impressive, it wasn't as bad as it seemed. On some plays, yeah, no pressure. But the Jags moved Minshew quite a bit. Whenever he took more than 2.5 seconds to throw, it was either a play action, or he got pressured. The issue was with the plays where he threw quick -- which the pass rush isn't the issue, it's the technique right at snap. Can't play with big cushions, and fail to drive on the ball, and miss tackles. We did all of that on Sunday.

 

It's fine to favor one kind of scheme or coverage. But stop blaming zone for bad technique and execution. 

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1 hour ago, K-148 said:

Wasn't Legion of Boom Cover 3 zone defense for the most part?

It is... the difference is the Legion of Boom played very physical press-man at the LoS in order to disrupt the release and relied on Earl Thomas to clean up any leaks in the deepfield. What we are doing is the polar opposite. We play off. We don't disrupt anything. We allow HUGE cushions and give up everything in the short range uninterrupted. This is the most frustrating thing with this defense. We don't even try to cover parts of the field. If an offense is patient enough, they WILL move the ball against us. All opponents need is to not get greedy and they will kill our defense.

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14 minutes ago, stitches said:

It is... the difference is the Legion of Boom played very physical press-man at the LoS in order to disrupt the release and relied on Earl Thomas to clean up any leaks in the deepfield. What we are doing is the polar opposite. We play off. We don't disrupt anything. We allow HUGE cushions and give up everything in the short range uninterrupted. This is the most frustrating thing with this defense. We don't even try to cover parts of the field. If an offense is patient enough, they WILL move the ball against us. All opponents need is to not get greedy and they will kill our defense.

 

Sunday was like having Larry Coyer back.

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24 minutes ago, stitches said:

It is... the difference is the Legion of Boom played very physical press-man at the LoS in order to disrupt the release and relied on Earl Thomas to clean up any leaks in the deepfield. What we are doing is the polar opposite. We play off. We don't disrupt anything. We allow HUGE cushions and give up everything in the short range uninterrupted. This is the most frustrating thing with this defense. We don't even try to cover parts of the field. If an offense is patient enough, they WILL move the ball against us. All opponents need is to not get greedy and they will kill our defense.

So problem is not zone defense by itself, right? Even zone with cushions is legit, but not with that weak pressure, poor awareness and bad tackling.

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5 hours ago, K-148 said:

PFF graded our dline extremly poor outside of Autry and Buckner. Houston and Muhammad are in low 60's, Stewart about 55, Banogu 42. So no pressure. DBs made their part: kept plays in front of them, no big plays.

This is one of my biggest gripes about the zone D.... keeps plays in front of them., for about 5-8 yards a play. That's no good in today's NFL.

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