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42 minutes ago, BigO said:

I agree with you. Being a colt fan I hope I am wrong but I watched a lot of Rivers games last year and there was no zip on his passes and he was making a lot of bad decisions. And I agree his offensive line isn't as good as the colts but his skill players are better than the colts. Until Pittman and Campbell prove they can play in the NFL and TY can stay healthy I will take Allen, Williams, Hunter Henry, Gordon and Ekeler any day over the colts skill players. Remember just because you were good in college does not mean you will excel in the NFL. But I do feel that Rivers is a slight upgrade over Brissett. Just remember when Rivers throws an interception at a key time of the game I don't want to see all the homers crying the blues because it is going to happen because Rivers takes chances!

 

Thank you, this is all I’ve been trying to say. The Rivers signing isn’t a slam dunk and if you believe anything other than the Chargers were the worst team of all time with the worst coach ever last year, fans here act like you defaced the Peyton statue. 

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Just some historical perspective as to whom we have under center right now......   Essentially broke all SEC Records set by Peyton Manning before graduating as a senior....   Draft

Yes, new to the Colts the day Philip signed. And enjoying every minute of it. Not only watching him with a vastly better team around him, but my time on this board, as well. It's been a lot of fun.

Well, Ryan is in a perfect position to get revenge for that.

29 minutes ago, Grigson's Gaffes said:

 

Thank you, this is all I’ve been trying to say. The Rivers signing isn’t a slam dunk and if you believe anything other than the Chargers were the worst team of all time with the worst coach ever last year, fans here act like you defaced the Peyton statue. 

I haven't seen anyone in this forum say that the Chargers were the worst team of all time. Where do you come up with this horse dung? 

All I have read is most have an opinion he will be better with a better offensive line. 

Being optimistic is what most fans are till there is a reason to think different. 

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7 hours ago, PrideOfAthens17 said:

 

We'll see, of course, but the biggest key to me is how well the team manages Philip's arm health as the season goes along. Let's be honest here (and outside of his family, there's been no bigger fan of Philip for longer than me, as I've watched him since his high school days in our former home town), he has shown moments where his arm has looked "dead" (or close to it), especially last year. Now, unknown to most (since most haven't followed him on a daily basis throughout his entire career), he first started showing signs of very slight decline physically in late 2014/early 2015. To his (and the Chargers') credit, his arm health has been managed quite well since then. But even so, there have been occasional moments of, oh, let's just say less than optimal ability. But only moments of them, and not many.

 

Yet.

 

So we shall see. But if the Colts do a good job managing his arm health throughout the season, with the almost impossible to calculate improved cast around him here compared to the H-E-L-L he escaped, there's no reason to believe he can't be largely the same guy who was the best on the planet from 2008 - 2010, forget about the 2018 everyone keeps referring to.

With the OL and running game, I'm guessing they'll manage it pretty well. He simply won't be relied upon as much in Indy. To be honest, it's a bit hard to think the arm is that big of an issue given the 2018 stats though. I certainly haven't followed him as close as you, so I'll try to take it more seriously. I certainly recall some ducks last year, but I also recall some good/strong tosses too.

6 hours ago, Grigson's Gaffes said:

 

The Chargers O-Line was middle of the pack in 2018, they weren’t “terrible” they actually improved as the year went on. Again, he didn’t actually receive an MVP vote and you could have made a case for any other QB on that list I mentioned. You can’t say he was equal to those other guys and then say no brainer Top 5. If asked for Top 5 QB’s in NFL in 2018 to people at the time you’re getting Mahomes, Brees, Brady, Rodgers and Luck. Big Ben had 5100 yards that year as well. Rivers had a good, top 10 season. Not Top 5 though.

The Chargers OL haven't ranked above 26th in pass protection since 2014. That's 5 straight years of terrible.

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6 hours ago, Grigson's Gaffes said:

 

The Chargers O-Line was middle of the pack in 2018, they weren’t “terrible” they actually improved as the year went on. Again, he didn’t actually receive an MVP vote and you could have made a case for any other QB on that list I mentioned. You can’t say he was equal to those other guys and then say no brainer Top 5. If asked for Top 5 QB’s in NFL in 2018 to people at the time you’re getting Mahomes, Brees, Brady, Rodgers and Luck. Big Ben had 5100 yards that year as well. Rivers had a good, top 10 season. Not Top 5 though.

The Chargers OL ranked 30th in 2018, according to PFF.  They were not "middle of the pack"...not even close.

 

Rivers arguably had a better, more efficient season than Brady, Rodgers, Luck, and Big Ben.  He had volume stats, but also was well ahead of these other guys in completion %, TD %, and Y/A.  That's why he was one of three QBs mentioned in late season MVP talks...regardless of whether he got votes or not.

 

Speaking of PFF earlier, they also graded Rivers as the 4th best QB in 2018.  I'm not saying PFF is the authority on ranking players and teams.  Just pointing out that the general consensus, including from people that get paid to do this, is that Rivers was top 5 in 2018.

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57 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

With the OL and running game, I'm guessing they'll manage it pretty well. He simply won't be relied upon as much in Indy. To be honest, it's a bit hard to think the arm is that big of an issue given the 2018 stats though. I certainly haven't followed him as close as you, so I'll try to take it more seriously. I certainly recall some ducks last year, but I also recall some good/strong tosses too.

The Chargers OL haven't ranked above 26th in pass protection since 2014. That's 5 straight years of terrible.

I think many people fail to understand how bad Rivers' OLs have been over his career.  So I figured I'd list out the rankings here (overall OL ranking).  2009 rankings were the farthest back I could find, so it is possible that 2006-2008 was better while LT was in his prime.

 

2009 - 21st

2010 - 15th

2011 - 26th

2012 - 28th

2013 - 18th

2014 - 29th

2015 - 32nd

2016 - 31st

2017 - 24th

2018 - 30th

2019 - 29th

 

Now he's on a team that is expected to have a top 5 OL.  This is why Rivers followers are getting hyped.

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3 minutes ago, DontEverGiveUp said:

I think many people fail to understand how bad Rivers' OLs have been over his career.  So I figured I'd list out the rankings here (overall OL ranking).  2009 rankings were the farthest back I could find, so it is possible that 2006-2008 was better while LT was in his prime.

 

2009 - 21st

2010 - 15th

2011 - 26th

2012 - 28th

2013 - 18th

2014 - 29th

2015 - 32nd

2016 - 31st

2017 - 24th

2018 - 30th

2019 - 29th

 

Now he's on a team that is expected to have a top 5 OL.  This is why Rivers followers are getting hyped.

Here he will have a top 5 offensive Line, I am hyped. I see him playing not only this year but also next season if it all goes well. I have us winning the division.

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10 minutes ago, DontEverGiveUp said:

I think many people fail to understand how bad Rivers' OLs have been over his career.  So I figured I'd list out the rankings here (overall OL ranking).  2009 rankings were the farthest back I could find, so it is possible that 2006-2008 was better while LT was in his prime.

 

2009 - 21st

2010 - 15th

2011 - 26th

2012 - 28th

2013 - 18th

2014 - 29th

2015 - 32nd

2016 - 31st

2017 - 24th

2018 - 30th

2019 - 29th

 

Now he's on a team that is expected to have a top 5 OL.  This is why Rivers followers are getting hyped.

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11 hours ago, shasta519 said:

 

If we are using stats from playerprofiler.com...we should use their 40 times then. On that site, they are listed as .19 apart...which is basically .2. I don't think the idea that Henry has better speed and agility than Doyle is all that controversial...that's never been Doyle's game.

 

I do also think age is factor...just look at Jimmy Graham or nearly any other TE as he ages. Doyle was never a dynamic player like Kelce was...and Kelce is perhaps top 5 all-time...so I don't think what he is doing at his age is really applicable to Doyle.

 

As for stats, I think the air yards is much more indicative of Henry being more dynamic...than YAC. It would definitely seem like teams respect Henry more...as they give him much more cushion than Doyle.

 

Last season was somewhat of an outlier for YAC...as Henry's YAC was more than 2x higher in 2017. But as many have pointed out...Rivers loves to throw it up and let his guy make a play....and this was especially true last year. 

 

The result was Henry having several diving grabs or making contested catches up the seam or on the sideline. Naturally...this would result in a lower YAC and lower separation.

 

To illustrate...Doyle had 1 contested catch on 8 targets...Henry had 12 contested catches on 16 targets (20% of his total receptions were contested catches). Henry was just much better at contested catches last year (and I would argue...catching the ball overall)...but this is also big context to what was happening when these guys caught the ball last year. 

 

But YAC and separation are really the only areas that Doyle was "better" last year. Once you get to efficiency stats...it's not even close. Henry was #4 in Production Premium last year...while Doyle was #22. And despite having the 3rd highest average target distance...Henry's QB had a passer rating of 114 when targeting him...while Doyle's QB had a passer rating of 84...despite throwing much shorter passes...which are typically higher percentage throws. 

 

And while Henry had Rivers and Doyle had JB...let's not forget that they had identical passer ratings last year...so everything Henry did was against the backdrop of one of Rivers' worst seasons. And it could be argued that Henry helped Rivers a lot more than Doyle helped JB...as pass catchers.

 

I like Doyle...but I don't think it's particularly close between these two...so I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I think a healthy Hunter Henry has top 5 TE potential...and could push for a 1,000/10 type of a season. If LAC lets him go...I hope Ballard takes advantage. And then we can have both Doyle and Henry on the same team.

 

Going to keep it short as you're reaching in so many places. I like Henry. Solid guy with great hands. Is he he more dynamic than Doyle, probably. Is he "much more dynamic" than Dolye, no.

 

Air yards are a product of which routes the TE runs, which tosses the QB makes, and if the TE catches what's thrown. Obviously Doyle ran shallow routes, obviously Henry runs deeper routes. Obviously Rivers throws to the seam and deep, while obviously JB is either incapable or unwilling to throw to either. And Doyle has a better catch % while getting poorer quality throws.

 

YAC and separation are likely the two stats that are least reliant on other factors. And to have more YAC in shallow routes vs deep routes is pretty telling, especially when the pass quality is less. So the simple question is, in a blind taste test, wouldn't you expect a more dynamic pass catcher to have more YAC and more separation? It's as simple as that.

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2 hours ago, DontEverGiveUp said:

The Chargers OL ranked 30th in 2018, according to PFF.  They were not "middle of the pack"...not even close.

 

Rivers arguably had a better, more efficient season than Brady, Rodgers, Luck, and Big Ben.  He had volume stats, but also was well ahead of these other guys in completion %, TD %, and Y/A.  That's why he was one of three QBs mentioned in late season MVP talks...regardless of whether he got votes or not.

 

Speaking of PFF earlier, they also graded Rivers as the 4th best QB in 2018.  I'm not saying PFF is the authority on ranking players and teams.  Just pointing out that the general consensus, including from people that get paid to do this, is that Rivers was top 5 in 2018.

 

I prefer Football Outsider's and they rank them as 13th in Pass Protection and 5th in run blocking. That's not the general consensus, that is one opinion from one publication. If you go through Google and look at "Top QB's from the 2018 season" you're going to see Rivers ranked anywhere from 3rd to 10th.

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2 hours ago, DontEverGiveUp said:

I think many people fail to understand how bad Rivers' OLs have been over his career.  So I figured I'd list out the rankings here (overall OL ranking).  2009 rankings were the farthest back I could find, so it is possible that 2006-2008 was better while LT was in his prime.

 

2009 - 21st

2010 - 15th

2011 - 26th

2012 - 28th

2013 - 18th

2014 - 29th

2015 - 32nd

2016 - 31st

2017 - 24th

2018 - 30th

2019 - 29th

 

Now he's on a team that is expected to have a top 5 OL.  This is why Rivers followers are getting hyped.

 

What "metric" are you using or where are you getting these rankings?

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2 minutes ago, Grigson's Gaffes said:

 

By what metric, bud?

PFF. It's not perfect, but it's the best out there when it comes to OL.

To put it in prospective, the NFL actually uses PFF and quotes it regularly. 

 

6 minutes ago, Grigson's Gaffes said:

 

I prefer Football Outsider's and they rank them as 13th in Pass Protection and 5th in run blocking. That's not the general consensus, that is one opinion from one publication. If you go through Google and look at "Top QB's from the 2018 season" you're going to see Rivers ranked anywhere from 3rd to 10th.

FO is horrible when it comes to pass protection ranking. The only thing they factor is sacks. They do not account for pressure, hits, throwaways, etc.

4 minutes ago, Grigson's Gaffes said:

 

What "metric" are you using or where are you getting these rankings?

PFF.

 

-----------------------------------

here's some cuts from overall rankings

Quote

 

2019

29. LOS ANGELES CHARGERS

The Chargers’ offensive line has been their roster's biggest weakness for several seasons now. To put it in perspective, the last time they had a team pass-blocking grade ranked above 26th was 2014. With Russell Okung out for much of the season, the tackle position manned by Trent Scott and Sam Tevi was an issue, consistently putting Philip Rivers under pressure. Tevi and Scott combined to allow 88 pressures this season. That was the second most of any tackle duo in the NFL, behind Nate Solder and Mike Remmers in New York.

 

2018

30. LOS ANGELES CHARGERS

The Chargers' offensive line improvement has been vastly overblown. They still employ the lowest-graded guard and lowest tackle in pass protection this season. Left guard Dan Feeney has allowed eight sacks and eight more hits, while right tackle Sam Tevi has given up eight sacks and 12 hits.

 

2017

24. LOS ANGELES CHARGERS

Total pressures surrendered: 188
Best player: Russell Okung
Combinations used: 20

The Chargers dedicated a large part of their 2017 offseason to strengthening the offensive line as they signed left tackle Russell Okung and drafted guards Forrest Lamp and Dan Feeney. While Okung did become a solid left tackle for the team and the Chargers best offensive lineman, Lamp suffered a season-ending injury in the preseason and Feeney struggled to find his feet in his first year. Although the Chargers allowed just nine sacks, tied for the fewest in the NFL, it is a misleading stat as Philip Rivers led the league with 35 throwaways. However, the Chargers' offensive line was slightly more effective in run-blocking as their running backs averaged 1.47 yards before contact, which was just below the NFL average of 1.56 yards before contact.

 

2016

31. SAN DIEGO CHARGERS (29)

Top overall grade: C Matt Slauson, 81.2 (No. 19)

Top pass-blocking grade: RG D.J. Fluker, 75.9 (No. 50)

Top run-blocking grade: C Matt Slauson, 76.7 (No. 10)

Spare a thought for Philip Rivers, who has to watch the other two big QBs from the 2004 draft class steering playoff-bound teams and contending for a championship while he deals with one of the worst offensive lines in the game. Center Matt Slauson was the best part of this offensive line, and his play was average, at best. This line couldn’t pass protect, surrendering 238 total QB pressures for the second-lowest pass-blocking efficiency mark in the league, and its run blocking was no better. Of 1,510 rushing yards as a team, 906 of them came after contact, with the line generating an average of just 1.5 yards before contact per carry.

 

2015

32. SAN DIEGO CHARGERS (29TH)

Pass-blocking rank: 32nd

Run-blocking rank: 31st

Penalties rank: 29th

Stud: Joe Barksdale, and it wasn’t close.

Dud: The seven lowest grades on offense belonged to linemen. None more so than Trevor Robinson, who had the lowest grade of any lineman in the league.

Summary: Just terrible. Injuries hurt them to the point they had 12 players take snaps on the line, and nine feature for more than 100 snaps. That kind of lack in continuity is a killer, but still doesn’t explain how bad this group was. Big-money signing Orlando Franklin didn’t produce, and former first-rounder, D.J. Fluker, is not impressing. They just haven’t got it right on the line and it shows each and every game.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

PFF. It's not perfect, but it's the best out there when it comes to OL.

To put it in prospective, the NFL actually uses PFF and quotes it regularly. 

 

FO is horrible when it comes to pass protection ranking. The only thing they factor is sacks. They do not account for pressure, hits, throwaways, etc.

PFF.

 

-----------------------------------

here's some cuts from overall rankings

 

 

The NFL uses PFF on their broadcast because Chris Collinsworth owns it. The grey area with FO is where it gets complicated. You're never going to have a perfect metric for evaluating O-Line play. 

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I wonder where Football Outsiders ranks Rivers for 2018?

 

Lets see here. 
 

oh wow Top 3. Ahead of Luck even. 
 

With this offensive line and running game, and solid depth and skill among pass-catchers, perhaps he can be #1 this season? A girl can dream. 

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14 hours ago, BigO said:

I agree with you. Being a colt fan I hope I am wrong but I watched a lot of Rivers games last year and there was no zip on his passes and he was making a lot of bad decisions. And I agree his offensive line isn't as good as the colts but his skill players are better than the colts. Until Pittman and Campbell prove they can play in the NFL and TY can stay healthy I will take Allen, Williams, Hunter Henry, Gordon and Ekeler any day over the colts skill players. Remember just because you were good in college does not mean you will excel in the NFL. But I do feel that Rivers is a slight upgrade over Brissett. Just remember when Rivers throws an interception at a key time of the game I don't want to see all the homers crying the blues because it is going to happen because Rivers takes chances!

Slight upgrade?   That's funny.

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1 hour ago, Myles said:

Slight upgrade?   That's funny.

 

Based on last year? That's not an outlandish statement. We all hope he proves to be a MAJOR upgrade but just from last year alone? Yeah, slight upgrade.

 

The good thing, a slight upgrade is all the Colts needed last year. A slight upgrade and a much better kicking game.

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13 hours ago, DontEverGiveUp said:

I think many people fail to understand how bad Rivers' OLs have been over his career.  So I figured I'd list out the rankings here (overall OL ranking).  2009 rankings were the farthest back I could find, so it is possible that 2006-2008 was better while LT was in his prime.

 

2009 - 21st

2010 - 15th

2011 - 26th

2012 - 28th

2013 - 18th

2014 - 29th

2015 - 32nd

2016 - 31st

2017 - 24th

2018 - 30th

2019 - 29th

 

Now he's on a team that is expected to have a top 5 OL.  This is why Rivers followers are getting hyped.

 

I've never been interested in rankings. I go by what I see, and having watched every snap of his entire NFL career, I can give you this season summary of his offensive lines.
2006 - 2007: One of the best lines in the league.
2008 - 2011: Very inconsistent game to game, play to play, largely because of recurring injury issues throughout these years to several regular stalwarts (mainly McNeill, Hardwick and Dielman). Overall slightly above average.
2012: Worst offensive line he's ever had to deal with at any level, and one of the worst I've ever seen in all my almost 50 years watching this game. Utter garbage this year.

2013 - 2019: Largely the same issue each season, that being the inability of the Telesco/Coaching staff to successfully evaluate and/or develop offensive line talent, no matter who was brought in during those years, resulting in very poor, uneven and ineffective overall play. This time, however, also coincided with a significant change in the way the passing game was executed, and specifically how Philip was instructed to manage it, from quicker post-snap reads and releases to even more pre-snap control given to Philip at the line. It's no coincidence that this change coincided with the beginning of Philip's time being coached by the Reich/Sirianni pair, as well.

 

I could also give you a synopsis of the other offensive, defensive and special teams personnel during his time there, but suffice it to say that he has never, EVER had a single season where all of the units, across the board, formed a truly complete team at the same time. Never! And THAT is the biggest reason some of us are so excited for him now, as this at least looks to be EASILY the closest he's ever had to having that here.

 

But we shall see...

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3 hours ago, Colt.45 said:

 

Based on last year? That's not an outlandish statement. We all hope he proves to be a MAJOR upgrade but just from last year alone? Yeah, slight upgrade.

 

The good thing, a slight upgrade is all the Colts needed last year. A slight upgrade and a much better kicking game.

Based on this logic - only looking at last year - then you must also believe that Tampa Bay only slightly upgraded (at best) their QB position as well.

 

Not saying that is wrong, but you'd get a lot more pushback saying that Brady is a slight upgrade over Winston.

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On 8/18/2020 at 2:17 PM, PrideOfAthens17 said:

I don't care about any of this stuff. Like with all things, whatever actually happens will determine the results in the end, and people will either like them for their own reasons, or dislike them for their own reasons. The same as with everything else in life.

 

My only concern in this entire thread is - can the thread creator edit Philip's name so that it is spelled correctly? That's ONE L. Thank you :D.

Too funny. Yes indeed Philip Rivers name is spelled with "ONE" letter "L".

 

I saw these same posts in San Diego as a Chargers fan.

 

Philip Rivers is a WARRIOR !!!

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2 hours ago, PrideOfAthens17 said:

 

I've never been interested in rankings. I go by what I see, and having watched every snap of his entire NFL career, I can give you this season summary of his offensive lines.
2006 - 2007: One of the best lines in the league.
2008 - 2011: Very inconsistent game to game, play to play, largely because of recurring injury issues throughout these years to several regular stalwarts (mainly McNeill, Hardwick and Dielman). Overall slightly above average.
2012: Worst offensive line he's ever had to deal with at any level, and one of the worst I've ever seen in all my almost 50 years watching this game. Utter garbage this year.

2013 - 2019: Largely the same issue each season, that being the inability of the Telesco/Coaching staff to successfully evaluate and/or develop offensive line talent, no matter who was brought in during those years, resulting in very poor, uneven and ineffective overall play. This time, however, also coincided with a significant change in the way the passing game was executed, and specifically how Philip was instructed to manage it, from quicker post-snap reads and releases to even more pre-snap control given to Philip at the line. It's no coincidence that this change coincided with the beginning of Philip's time being coached by the Reich/Sirianni pair, as well.

 

I could also give you a synopsis of the other offensive, defensive and special teams personnel during his time there, but suffice it to say that he has never, EVER had a single season where all of the units, across the board, formed a truly complete team at the same time. Never! And THAT is the biggest reason some of us are so excited for him now, as this at least looks to be EASILY the closest he's ever had to having that here.

 

But we shall see...

I agree with your assessment, thanks for sharing.  

 

The main reason I like to cite rankings is that most people involved in a discussion will give more credit to a publication like PFF as opposed to a random fan's observations (regardless of whether that fan makes solid points or not).

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8 hours ago, PrideOfAthens17 said:

 

I've never been interested in rankings. I go by what I see, and having watched every snap of his entire NFL career, I can give you this season summary of his offensive lines.
2006 - 2007: One of the best lines in the league.
2008 - 2011: Very inconsistent game to game, play to play, largely because of recurring injury issues throughout these years to several regular stalwarts (mainly McNeill, Hardwick and Dielman). Overall slightly above average.
2012: Worst offensive line he's ever had to deal with at any level, and one of the worst I've ever seen in all my almost 50 years watching this game. Utter garbage this year.

2013 - 2019: Largely the same issue each season, that being the inability of the Telesco/Coaching staff to successfully evaluate and/or develop offensive line talent, no matter who was brought in during those years, resulting in very poor, uneven and ineffective overall play. This time, however, also coincided with a significant change in the way the passing game was executed, and specifically how Philip was instructed to manage it, from quicker post-snap reads and releases to even more pre-snap control given to Philip at the line. It's no coincidence that this change coincided with the beginning of Philip's time being coached by the Reich/Sirianni pair, as well.

 

I could also give you a synopsis of the other offensive, defensive and special teams personnel during his time there, but suffice it to say that he has never, EVER had a single season where all of the units, across the board, formed a truly complete team at the same time. Never! And THAT is the biggest reason some of us are so excited for him now, as this at least looks to be EASILY the closest he's ever had to having that here.

 

But we shall see...

Excellent synopsis Pride of Athens. I thought the Chargers were a complete team in 06-07. LT set the TD record in 06 and I remember the run defense was incredible with Jamaal Williams at NT. That was Philip’s true window, and unfortunately the Chargers imploded in 06 playoffs and then he faced the undefeated Patriots in 07 with a torn ACL. 
 

Why do you think the Colts have a more complete team than those teams?

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Believe me Guys Philip is the real deal. Obviously(No Offense)Y'all  haven't watched his career like I have. We literally gave Brees away. No money and No picks because the Spanos are dummies and should not be allowed to be owners in the NFL...Rivers will blow you away with his heart and love for the game.You'll see it within the first game and you will love him as much as we do in San Diego. He luvs the game and he luvs to WIN!!! You'll see it first game when he starts talking trash. I predict a Super Bowl for the Colts this year with the defense and the O line ya got. Give Phillip 5-6 seconds and he will eat the defense alive!!!

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2 hours ago, Bolts2Colts said:

Excellent synopsis Pride of Athens. I thought the Chargers were a complete team in 06-07. LT set the TD record in 06 and I remember the run defense was incredible with Jamaal Williams at NT. That was Philip’s true window, and unfortunately the Chargers imploded in 06 playoffs and then he faced the undefeated Patriots in 07 with a torn ACL. 
 

Why do you think the Colts have a more complete team than those teams?

 

Offensively they were close, although the receivers weren't quite yet what they would eventually be. But they were very good offensively those years. But defensively they were average on their very best days. Yes, Williams and Merriman were truly great players then. But that was it. And that's not nearly enough. There were clear liabilities and weaknesses on every level, and they caused those teams to be in constant and continual close games, rarely allowing the explosive and high scoring offense to ever pull away from opponents.

 

That kind of constant pressure was going to take a huge toll over time, which it always eventually did.

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14 hours ago, DontEverGiveUp said:

Based on this logic - only looking at last year - then you must also believe that Tampa Bay only slightly upgraded (at best) their QB position as well.

 

Not saying that is wrong, but you'd get a lot more pushback saying that Brady is a slight upgrade over Winston.

 

If we take last year alone then yes, he's an upgrade on Winston but probably not the gargantuan upgrade he's been made out to be. 

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11 hours ago, Bolts2Colts said:

Excellent synopsis Pride of Athens. I thought the Chargers were a complete team in 06-07. LT set the TD record in 06 and I remember the run defense was incredible with Jamaal Williams at NT. That was Philip’s true window, and unfortunately the Chargers imploded in 06 playoffs and then he faced the undefeated Patriots in 07 with a torn ACL. 
 

Why do you think the Colts have a more complete team than those teams?

i would not say we are better than the team with LT but this colts team is pretty well rounded.  should be top 5 in rushing, top 3 in pass protection. good running back group, receivers will be solid if ty stays healthy 

 

on defense we have one of the best line backers in the league and what should be an improved line with buckner and houston coming back.  the secondary is probably average 

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10 hours ago, PrideOfAthens17 said:

 

Offensively they were close, although the receivers weren't quite yet what they would eventually be. But they were very good offensively those years. But defensively they were average on their very best days. Yes, Williams and Merriman were truly great players then. But that was it. And that's not nearly enough. There were clear liabilities and weaknesses on every level, and they caused those teams to be in constant and continual close games, rarely allowing the explosive and high scoring offense to ever pull away from opponents.

 

That kind of constant pressure was going to take a huge toll over time, which it always eventually did.

I just checked those rosters and I have to agree with you. We see the 14-2 record and assume they were loaded and complete. Those wide receivers were nobody’s. Secondary was a liability with Marlon McCree. 

 

Drew Brees had substantially the same roster in 2005 and went 9-7. 

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Rivers has always been quietly a good QB, but he never really made the jump to greatness.  

 

There might have been some years in his prime where he was **maybe** top 5.  But most of the time he was probably in the 6 to 10 range. 

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30 minutes ago, Valpo2004 said:

Rivers has always been quietly a good QB, but he never really made the jump to greatness.  

 

There might have been some years in his prime where he was **maybe** top 5.  But most of the time he was probably in the 6 to 10 range. 

I'd argue Rivers was the best overall QB from 2008-2010.

 

Obviously that sort of thing is subjective, but the stats support the claim.

 

I also think Rivers deserved MVP in 2008, but I know a Colts board will understandably disagree with that, and I have tons of respect for Peyton.

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On 8/25/2020 at 1:48 AM, Grigson's Gaffes said:

 

The NFL uses PFF on their broadcast because Chris Collinsworth owns it. The grey area with FO is where it gets complicated. You're never going to have a perfect metric for evaluating O-Line play. 

I've followed FO for a long time. It's simply more limited in many areas than PFF. Doesn't matter who owns it. It's not just the NFL quoting it all over the place. Pass protection is just one area were there is an obvious difference. There is no grey area in that it only looks at sack %. And like I said, PFF isn't perfect, but easily better in that aspect.

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I really like what I have seen from Rivers so far. I really think he's going to make the Colts not only playoff contenders, but give them a good chance to reach the Super Bowl. 

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Something I haven't seen addressed thus far is an observation I've noted as Charger's and Philip Rivers' long time fan.  For some reason during the last 3-4 years the Chargers have abandoned the hurry up offense and quick passing game that worked incredibly well with Rivers ability to read defenses, cycle through his reads and score quickly.  

 

This past couple years they constantly ran the clock all the way down almost to zero, allowing defenses to hide their intent and to know when the snap was coming.  I hope that the Colts will vary the timing of the offense and go hurry up at unexpected times, shifting the snap to early enough to keep the D honest.  In addition to the awesome front line, I think that's about all Rivers will need.

 

By the way, also haven't seen this commented on.  Rivers gave an interview last year mentioning he has NEVER had a sore arm in his career and crediting that result potentially to his unconventional throwing motion.  

 

The two worst years in his career came when I believe he was playing with rib injuries due to terrible O-Line play.  Both years (last year and I can't remember which, but it was when we were still in San Diego) we had over 20 different O-line combinations and he took a LOT of hard hits.  The San Diego year he was at the top of the MVP list for the first half of the season.  During and after the game that he took so many shots, he started throwing interceptions at a very high rate as his ball was short and lacked zip.  Antonio Gates let the cat out of the bag in a press conference that he was playing seriously hurt and quickly got hushed up for it.  

 

One day I think we'll know just how often this was going on and how it impacted his play.  But Phil never makes excuses or lets anyone around him do so.

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1 hour ago, Girlzarefanstoo said:

Something I haven't seen addressed thus far is an observation I've noted as Charger's and Philip Rivers' long time fan.  For some reason during the last 3-4 years the Chargers have abandoned the hurry up offense and quick passing game that worked incredibly well with Rivers ability to read defenses, cycle through his reads and score quickly.  

 

This past couple years they constantly ran the clock all the way down almost to zero, allowing defenses to hide their intent and to know when the snap was coming.  I hope that the Colts will vary the timing of the offense and go hurry up at unexpected times, shifting the snap to early enough to keep the D honest.  In addition to the awesome front line, I think that's about all Rivers will need.

 

By the way, also haven't seen this commented on.  Rivers gave an interview last year mentioning he has NEVER had a sore arm in his career and crediting that result potentially to his unconventional throwing motion.  

 

The two worst years in his career came when I believe he was playing with rib injuries due to terrible O-Line play.  Both years (last year and I can't remember which, but it was when we were still in San Diego) we had over 20 different O-line combinations and he took a LOT of hard hits.  The San Diego year he was at the top of the MVP list for the first half of the season.  During and after the game that he took so many shots, he started throwing interceptions at a very high rate as his ball was short and lacked zip.  Antonio Gates let the cat out of the bag in a press conference that he was playing seriously hurt and quickly got hushed up for it.  

 

One day I think we'll know just how often this was going on and how it impacted his play.  But Phil never makes excuses or lets anyone around him do so.

Great point.

 

I think the Chargers were running the slow down offense because Anthony Lynn thought they needed to be a smashmouth running team (even though the roster was built to do the opposite), and he wanted to limit the amount of time that their bad defense was on the field.

 

Always thought it was funny watching the offense struggle throughout the first half, then put Rivers in the hurry up and score a TD before halftime.

 

From everything I've heard about the Colts, I expect their coaching staff to be a lot smarter than the Chargers coaches.

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5 hours ago, DontEverGiveUp said:

Great point.

 

I think the Chargers were running the slow down offense because Anthony Lynn thought they needed to be a smashmouth running team (even though the roster was built to do the opposite), and he wanted to limit the amount of time that their bad defense was on the field.

 

Always thought it was funny watching the offense struggle throughout the first half, then put Rivers in the hurry up and score a TD before halftime.

 

From everything I've heard about the Colts, I expect their coaching staff to be a lot smarter than the Chargers coaches.

I think it was either in the camp notes or elsewhere but they said Rivers was doing well in the hurry up offense and we could expect the Colts to go up tempo a lot.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 8/25/2020 at 10:48 AM, Colt.45 said:

 

Based on last year? That's not an outlandish statement. We all hope he proves to be a MAJOR upgrade but just from last year alone? Yeah, slight upgrade.

 

The good thing, a slight upgrade is all the Colts needed last year. A slight upgrade and a much better kicking game.

Slight upgrade sounds about right. He's got to cut out the bone headed plays. I fear he won't, I lived in San Diego last year and saw a bit of the Chargers. This Jaguars game was typical. The thing is, the running game and defense have to show up too and they didnt today.

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Three picks thrown today, and every single one of them were absolute garbage. 
 

Like never should have been thrown garbage. 
 

Even some of the throws he did complete (to our team, not the other one. Just to be clear.) were into coverage tight enough they shouldn’t have been thrown. 
 

He almost made it an entire game before wearing out the ultra-thin welcome I had made for him coming into the season. 
 

He never had the talent in his primest of prime to change my mind on that, so yeah... I’m all out on him. 

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10 minutes ago, John Waylon said:

Three picks thrown today, and every single one of them were absolute garbage. 
 

Like never should have been thrown garbage. 
 

Even some of the throws he did complete (to our team, not the other one. Just to be clear.) were into coverage tight enough they shouldn’t have been thrown. 
 

He almost made it an entire game before wearing out the ultra-thin welcome I had made for him coming into the season. 
 

He never had the talent in his primest of prime to change my mind on that, so yeah... I’m all out on him. 

I feel you. I never liked the signing either. I was hoping to be proven wrong but alas...NOT.  Rivers is who he is.  When it comes down to the end he will wilt more often than not.  Reich put too much of the game in his hand and under utilized the run. We ended up with 3 Rivers picks.  It’s tough being right so often about these things.  I had us losing in Jax this year so Colts are still on course for a 9-7 or 8-8 type season.  Mediocre with an outside shot at a wildcard. 

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On 8/18/2020 at 2:30 PM, Grigson's Gaffes said:

 

I wrote the original post at 2:30 AM, so there were probably some typo's. The only unit that Rivers had around him last year that was worse than what he will have in Indianapolis was the offensive line. The WR and RB group he had in LA was much better. Through 2018 and 2019, Rivers was fifth in the NFL in check down percentage, his completion percentage should be high. The passing rules in the league are much more favorable now than what they were when these guys came into the league. Eason lasted until pick 122 for a reason, if he was without question marks, he would have went a lot sooner. He isn't the obvious QB of the future that some pretend he is. Drew Brees isn't in the conversation of being the GOAT, talk about an ignorant statement. His passing yards won't be what they were in years past, because he isn't going to be chucking the ball like he was in SD/LA. It's a big reason why the line on his passing yards has been bet down from 4249.5 to 4000.5. Also, using the eye test, if you watched Rivers play at all last year his passes fluttered an awful lot. We'll see how it shakes out, but to act like he is still the same QB now as he was 10 years ago is asinine. Rivers is 38/39 this is an age where pretty much every QB in history has dropped off with the exception of Tom Brady. To not expect some regression from Rivers at this age is baffling to me.

Look at Drew Brees stats he is 1 or 2 in most categories. Comparing stats with Brady or Manning hes pretty close.

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1 minute ago, Coltsman1788 said:

I feel you. I never liked the signing either. I was hoping to be proven wrong but alas...NOT.  Rivers is who he is.  When it comes down to the end he will wilt more often than not.  Reich put too much of the game in his hand and under utilized the run. We ended up with 3 Rivers picks.  It’s tough being right so often about these things.  I had us losing in Jax this year so Colts are still on course for a 9-7 or 8-8 type season.  Mediocre with an outside shot at a wildcard. 


Someone retweeted this late in the game and I didn’t know the stats were this dire, but I definitely wasn’t surprised by it, either. 

 

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