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On 8/17/2020 at 8:55 PM, Bolts2Colts said:

He is also top 10 all-time in completion percentage. 
 

Maybe this will be his best year yet. I was surprised at how well Manning performed for the Broncos. Why can’t Rivers do the same thing with the Colts? 

 

Agree 100%.

 

I certainly hope Rivers doesn't have this "this is such great team...I really don't have to do much next season" mindset.

 

I hope it's the opposite...and he has come here to ball out...and put a big exclamation point on his career.  The idea that he will be a game manager that throws ~450 passes is for the birds IMO.

 

Like you alluded...PFM certainly didn't think like that when he went to DEN...and it would have even been understandable since he was coming off a missed season and a neck surgery. Instead, he went out and set records and had three of his best seasons. 

 

We should all hope Rivers does his own impression of Manning. 

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Just some historical perspective as to whom we have under center right now......   Essentially broke all SEC Records set by Peyton Manning before graduating as a senior....   Draft

Yes, new to the Colts the day Philip signed. And enjoying every minute of it. Not only watching him with a vastly better team around him, but my time on this board, as well. It's been a lot of fun.

Well, Ryan is in a perfect position to get revenge for that.

1 hour ago, shasta519 said:

 

Doyle is a better blocker...but Henry is a much more dynamic TE and better pass catcher.

I disagree on a few levels. 

 

Hunter is a pretty good blocker. Not sure I'd call him a "much more" dynamic TE though. Hunter had the benefit of going to an SEC school, a good coach (Bielema), and a good QB (Allen who threw for 3000+) in college. Doyle was a small school, small conference guy, who had a QB who didn't eclipse 2000. Doyle still put up great numbers though his last two seasons starting similar to Henry's last two years (but in a much better situation).

 

If we look at their NFL years, their numbers are very similar when they are healthy and the primary TE. Doyle's catch % is a bit higher. Doyle has spent 2 years with JB as QB (he deserves some slack for this), and 1.5ish years with another top TE on the roster (Ebron). Still, his #s are good. Hunter did share time with a fading Gates though early on, but he did benefit from having the same QB every year. Neither ran at the combine, but both are around 4.7 40.

 

Anyway, there production #s are similar. We'll see how well Jack looks with Rivers this year. My bet is he looks every bit the part as Henry did with Rivers.

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On 8/18/2020 at 5:50 PM, Grigson's Gaffes said:

 

If you think Pascal, Pittman or Campbell have done anything on the field to be deemed as talented as Mike Williams, I can't help you. He had 10 TD's in his second season and 1000 yds on just 49 catches last year. A majority of NFL games are going to be decided by one score or less. Not having a consistent kicking game is an achilles heal. Again, I don't think it's farfetched that Rivers is an upgrade, but to pretend he is going to come in and carve people up like he's a Top 5 QB is baffling.

I have no hesitation in stating that Rivers could be a top 5 QB in 2020.  In 14 years as a starter, he has been top 5 at least five times, and almost always top 10.  His last top 5 season was in 2018, only two seasons ago.

 

This year Rivers will be gifted with the best OL and coaching staff of his career.  He needs an actual pocket to throw from, and that just didn't exist in LA last year.  It's truly amazing how well he did for a decade while SD/LA had a bottom 5 OL.  This is one of the reasons NFL players and coaches regard Rivers much higher than casual fans.

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11 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

I disagree on a few levels. 

 

Hunter is a pretty good blocker. Not sure I'd call him a "much more" dynamic TE though. Hunter had the benefit of going to an SEC school, a good coach (Bielema), and a good QB (Allen who threw for 3000+) in college. Doyle was a small school, small conference guy, who had a QB who didn't eclipse 2000. Doyle still put up great numbers though his last two seasons starting similar to Henry's last two years (but in a much better situation).

 

If we look at their NFL years, their numbers are very similar when they are healthy and the primary TE. Doyle's catch % is a bit higher. Doyle has spent 2 years with JB as QB (he deserves some slack for this), and 1.5ish years with another top TE on the roster (Ebron). Still, his #s are good. Hunter did share time with a fading Gates though early on, but he did benefit from having the same QB every year. Neither ran at the combine, but both are around 4.7 40.

 

Anyway, there production #s are similar. We'll see how well Jack looks with Rivers this year. My bet is he looks every bit the part as Henry did with Rivers.

I was a Chargers fan for the past 16 years.  I love Hunter Henry and hope to see him have a great career.  What makes him special are his hands...he will pretty much catch anything.  I think I read that in his 4 years at Arkansas, he had zero drops.  The main knock on his game in the NFL so far is that he can't stay healthy.

 

I don't know Doyle nearly as well as all of you, but he should be able to make a lot of plays with Rivers from what I've seen.

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4 minutes ago, DontEverGiveUp said:

I was a Chargers fan for the past 16 years.  I love Hunter Henry and hope to see him have a great career.  What makes him special are his hands...he will pretty much catch anything.  I think I read that in his 4 years at Arkansas, he had zero drops.  The main knock on his game in the NFL so far is that he can't stay healthy.

 

I don't know Doyle nearly as well as all of you, but he should be able to make a lot of plays with Rivers from what I've seen.

Yup. Both Doyle and Henry have pretty good hands. I think Henry's catch radius is a tad bit larger, and Doyles catch % is a bit better. Both have had some injury woes, but I think Henry will be fine. I remember Henry in college. Saw him play in Knoxville. Had a few big plays.

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37 minutes ago, DontEverGiveUp said:

I was a Chargers fan for the past 16 years.  I love Hunter Henry and hope to see him have a great career.  What makes him special are his hands...he will pretty much catch anything.  I think I read that in his 4 years at Arkansas, he had zero drops.  The main knock on his game in the NFL so far is that he can't stay healthy.

 

I don't know Doyle nearly as well as all of you, but he should be able to make a lot of plays with Rivers from what I've seen.

Doyle is a good overall TE, but he's not as athletic as Henry.  Doyle is a savvy vet that can to set up defenders while running his route and he knows how to find the soft spot in the zone to keep the chains moving.

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3 hours ago, DontEverGiveUp said:

I was a Chargers fan for the past 16 years.  I love Hunter Henry and hope to see him have a great career.  What makes him special are his hands...he will pretty much catch anything.  I think I read that in his 4 years at Arkansas, he had zero drops.  The main knock on his game in the NFL so far is that he can't stay healthy.

 

I don't know Doyle nearly as well as all of you, but he should be able to make a lot of plays with Rivers from what I've seen.

I was kinda hoping someone like Henry would follow Philip to Indy, they have instant rapport and Hunter is a great security blanket with big play ability but that was never gonna happen for 2 reasons:

#1 – The Chargers would never let him out of their building at this point

#2 – The Patriots probably would’ve snatched him up if they had!

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On 8/18/2020 at 11:10 AM, Four2itus said:

Not unlike Baltimorian fans posting 30 years ago. Hope you find peace, because ultimately, that is what really counts. 

I am old enough to be alive as these cities lost their teams: Los Angeles Chargers (1960), Los Angeles Rams, Oakland raider (twice now), St. Louis Cardinals, Cleveland Browns (I refused to play TAPS for those fans in the parking lot) Baltimore Colts, Houston Oilers = man I am freaking NFL OLD.

 

Finding NFL peace after being a fan for 50 years is not easy. San Diegans have an intense DISLIKE for anything Los Angeles.

 

Losing MY team after 50+ years was like watching a family member get drawn and quartered while the owners of the NFL horses pulling limbs apart laughed.

 

Will I find peace ?

 

Not until the Chargers return to San Diego with new ownership.

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On 8/18/2020 at 11:11 AM, Myles said:

Nice to meet you.   Feel free to root for the Colts and Chargers.   Do you really feel the Chargers have any chance of getting to the AFC Championship?  I assumed this would be a down year for the Chargers with maybe a win ceiling around 8 games, but you are a fan and would know more than I on their outlook.   

I do feel the Chargers have a legit shot at the AFC Championship against the Colts. You bet. The Chargers defense is damn scary if they stay healthy.

 

Our new guards are nails but our tackles suck and returning center was neck injured. The Bolts swing tackle is a joke for our team so I do not see the depth needed for my former team to go the distance but enough to make a whole hell of a lot of noise. You fans will enjoy Rivers. Rivers was the ONLY jersey I ever wore as a fan after 50+ years rooting for the Chargers.

 

Divorce from the Bolts has been a Bytch and hard to explain unless you were born in Southern California. Thanks for the therapy ;)

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7 hours ago, Trumpet_Man said:

I do feel the Chargers have a legit shot at the AFC Championship against the Colts. You bet. The Chargers defense is damn scary if they stay healthy.

 

Our new guards are nails but our tackles suck and returning center was neck injured. The Bolts swing tackle is a joke for our team so I do not see the depth needed for my former team to go the distance but enough to make a whole hell of a lot of noise. You fans will enjoy Rivers. Rivers was the ONLY jersey I ever wore as a fan after 50+ years rooting for the Chargers.

 

Divorce from the Bolts has been a Bytch and hard to explain unless you were born in Southern California. Thanks for the therapy ;)

I agree, and with the changes the Chargers made on their O-line this year in trading Okung for Turner and bringing in Bulaga from Green Bay, it makes me wonder why they waited till Philip was gone to make these moves, they sure could’ve made his time under center for Bolts a bit more productive especially if Pouncey returns healthy.

 

The Chargers’ main competition will likely come from within the AFC West, a division that includes the defending Superbowl Champions. I like the Colts’ chances much better of winning their division and hosting a playoff game or 2 than I do the Chargers so a Colts vs Bolts matchup may occur in the postseason, but it would likely be in the Wild Card or Divisional round.

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On 8/21/2020 at 1:11 PM, shasta519 said:

 

Agree 100%.

 

I certainly hope Rivers doesn't have this "this is such great team...I really don't have to do much next season" mindset.

 

I hope it's the opposite...and he has come here to ball out...and put a big exclamation point on his career.  The idea that he will be a game manager that throws ~450 passes is for the birds IMO.

 

Like you alluded...PFM certainly didn't think like that when he went to DEN...and it would have even been understandable since he was coming off a missed season and a neck surgery. Instead, he went out and set records and had three of his best seasons. 

 

We should all hope Rivers does his own impression of Manning. 

Reich won't allow Rivers to be like P-Money unless we lose our entire backfield, in my opinion.  He believes in establishing the run game and is somewhat loathe to abandon it early.

  The only other reason I would think he would fully unleash Rivers is if we're behind badly.  I just don't see Rivers having to be much more than a good game manager, which is fine for me as long as we're winning.

   Rivers is also smart enough to know that winning a SB is what really matters.  I highly doubt he goes rogue like Rodgers did with McCarthy.

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Rivers did an interview yesterday with SiriusXMNFL Radio in which he described his relationship with Manning and how when he played him in Indy, he’d allow himself to be 14 years old for 10 seconds while watching his idol jog onto the field.  There is a clip on Twitter. 

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Mike Williams averaged just two yards of separation when targeted last year, which was the lowest number in football. Yet somehow he had the highest YPC in the league. I’m not sure if this says more about MW’s jumping abilities or Rivers’ ability to throw where only he could grab it. 

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I think youre fooling yourself if you dont think Reich isnt going to unleash Rivers at times. Everything we do is game plan specific. Some opponents the weakness is going to be there in the secondary for us to exploit. For example if we had Rivers as our QB in that last Texans game from last year we probably pass more than we run because their secondary was weak. Remember Reich likes to score points. We wont always run run run.

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4 hours ago, krunk said:

I think youre fooling yourself if you dont think Reich isnt going to unleash Rivers at times. Everything we do is game plan specific. Some opponents the weakness is going to be there in the secondary for us to exploit. For example if we had Rivers as our QB in that last Texans game from last year we probably pass more than we run because their secondary was weak. Remember Reich likes to score points. We wont always run run run.

Yup. He even let JB throw it more vs bad pass Ds early on. Reich likes balance more than run run run, so I agree, we'll see it all, and hopefully see a lot of whatever exploits the opposing D.

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20 hours ago, MB-ColtsFan said:

Reich won't allow Rivers to be like P-Money unless we lose our entire backfield, in my opinion.  He believes in establishing the run game and is somewhat loathe to abandon it early.

  The only other reason I would think he would fully unleash Rivers is if we're behind badly.  I just don't see Rivers having to be much more than a good game manager, which is fine for me as long as we're winning.

   Rivers is also smart enough to know that winning a SB is what really matters.  I highly doubt he goes rogue like Rodgers did with McCarthy.


Right...but there’s a big gap between game manager and an unleashed QB that throws 40x per game. I just hope the goal is to let Rivers sling it try to put points on the board...no more coin flip football.

 

Look at Luck’s last season. He threw 639 passes and that offense was top 10. That total included some huge PAs game totals from playing catch up...so I wouldn’t expect Rivers to throw that much...but I would hope it’s closer to 600 PAs than 500 PAs.

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On 8/21/2020 at 2:51 PM, EastStreet said:

I disagree on a few levels. 

 

Hunter is a pretty good blocker. Not sure I'd call him a "much more" dynamic TE though. Hunter had the benefit of going to an SEC school, a good coach (Bielema), and a good QB (Allen who threw for 3000+) in college. Doyle was a small school, small conference guy, who had a QB who didn't eclipse 2000. Doyle still put up great numbers though his last two seasons starting similar to Henry's last two years (but in a much better situation).

 

If we look at their NFL years, their numbers are very similar when they are healthy and the primary TE. Doyle's catch % is a bit higher. Doyle has spent 2 years with JB as QB (he deserves some slack for this), and 1.5ish years with another top TE on the roster (Ebron). Still, his #s are good. Hunter did share time with a fading Gates though early on, but he did benefit from having the same QB every year. Neither ran at the combine, but both are around 4.7 40.

 

Anyway, there production #s are similar. We'll see how well Jack looks with Rivers this year. My bet is he looks every bit the part as Henry did with Rivers.


Henry’s 40 time is at least .2 faster than Doyle...and I would assume agility and burst are much higher (but those numbers don’t exist for Doyle).

 

They are essentially the same size...and Henry is 5 years younger. How is he not much more dynamic?

 

As for their numbers...Henry is certainly more productive per catch...with big play potential. And he’s a better RZ weapon...which is why over the past 4 seasons...he has more TDs in less games. 
 

Doyle is much more of a possession TE. I would argue that he benefited from JB...at least in 2017...because of his safe play check down tendencies...which produced the target volume necessary for a TE who gets 8-10 yards/catch to have the production he did. We didn’t see a huge difference in stats when Doyle was with Luck or JB (until last year when the catch % dropped).

 

Henry has had injury issues...which have held him back...but he has much more potential. Just last year...he would have likely had 800+ yards if he played the whole season. If LAC lets him go...I hope Ballard is all over Henry in FA.

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3 hours ago, shasta519 said:


Henry’s 40 time is at least .2 faster than Doyle...and I would assume agility and burst are much higher (but those numbers don’t exist for Doyle).

I disagree. Neither ran the combine. Henry did a pro day, but pro days are infamous for home cooking numbers. The services during Doyle's draft year projected him mid 4.7s which is not far off Henry's pro day. 

3 hours ago, shasta519 said:

 

They are essentially the same size...and Henry is 5 years younger. How is he not much more dynamic?

So age is the biggest factor in being "dynamic"? lol... Come on. Kelce is 30 too, and leads the league.

3 hours ago, shasta519 said:

As for their numbers...Henry is certainly more productive per catch...with big play potential. And he’s a better RZ weapon...which is why over the past 4 seasons...he has more TDs in less games. 

Henry is only more productive per catch, because he's getting deeper passes. Henry's completed air yards are 7.1 per target compared to 3.1 per target for Doyle. Doyle actually had more YAC at 3.2 per catch compared to Henry's 1.5. 

 

YAC is probably the best measure of "dynamic". It's also easier to get YAC the deeper the pass. You can also say that Henry gets better balls throw to him, at least last year. Henry's catchable target rate was 88.2%, compared to Doyle 77.8. Ten points is a pretty distinct advantage.

 

And one of the biggest measures of "dynamic" is separation. Doyle was one of the best in the league in terms of separation. He had 1.9 (#4 in the league) vs Henry's 1.38. Why doesn't someone who clearly is more dynamic have better separation lol.

 

So in short, Henry got deeper balls, Doyle got more yards after the catch and had better separation, and Doyle had to work harder for the catches. 

 

More TDs over the last two years? Did you forget Doyle was sharing time with Ebron?

3 hours ago, shasta519 said:

Doyle is much more of a possession TE. I would argue that he benefited from JB...at least in 2017...because of his safe play check down tendencies...which produced the target volume necessary for a TE who gets 8-10 yards/catch to have the production he did. We didn’t see a huge difference in stats when Doyle was with Luck or JB (until last year when the catch % dropped).

While I agree he's been a possession TE the last two years, you're reaching bigly saying he benefited from JB. Doyle's performance was impacted by JB to the negative. Doyle's catch rate with Luck was 78.8 vs 59.7 with JB. He had 4.3 CAY with Luck vs 3.1 with JB. Doyles receptions per game decreased as well. And his yards per target also suffered. Not sure how he benefited from JB lol. 

3 hours ago, shasta519 said:

Henry has had injury issues...which have held him back...but he has much more potential. Just last year...he would have likely had 800+ yards if he played the whole season. If LAC lets him go...I hope Ballard is all over Henry in FA.

Doyle has been injured too, and has shared a lot of time with other high end TEs when healthy. He had 690 yards with JB the first time around when he didn't have Ebron taking snaps.

 

In short, we'll see how well he looks with Rivers now that he is likely the #1 guy. My bet is he looks the part. We can compare after the season.

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On 8/22/2020 at 2:12 AM, Trumpet_Man said:

I do feel the Chargers have a legit shot at the AFC Championship against the Colts. You bet. The Chargers defense is damn scary if they stay healthy.

 

Our new guards are nails but our tackles suck and returning center was neck injured. The Bolts swing tackle is a joke for our team so I do not see the depth needed for my former team to go the distance but enough to make a whole hell of a lot of noise. You fans will enjoy Rivers. Rivers was the ONLY jersey I ever wore as a fan after 50+ years rooting for the Chargers.

 

Divorce from the Bolts has been a Bytch and hard to explain unless you were born in Southern California. Thanks for the therapy ;)

I respectfully disagree about the Chargers' chances of making the AFC championship.

 

The return of Derwin James and the additions they made to both lines will certainly help, but I think overall, they are farther away from becoming a legit contender.

 

They have been terrible at running the ball since Lynn took over (they were terrible before that too), the loss of Rivers is more significant than people seem to recognize, and the defense is not quite there yet.  In fact, this notion that the defense will suddenly be top 3 is kinda funny to me.  They were bad last year, and I just don't think the pieces they added will bring them from bottom half/third in the league to top 3.

 

Add in the fact that I think Lynn is way overrated and Gus Bradley is still running his "picket fence" scheme, and I think the ceiling for the Chargers in 2020 is 9-7.  I see them finishing at 7-9, despite a favorable schedule.

 

Hoping for the best for guys like Allen, Bosa, Ekeler, and Henry, but I just can't buy in to the hype at this point.

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1 hour ago, EastStreet said:

I disagree. Neither ran the combine. Henry did a pro day, but pro days are infamous for home cooking numbers. The services during Doyle's draft year projected him mid 4.7s which is not far off Henry's pro day. 

So age is the biggest factor in being "dynamic"? lol... Come on. Kelce is 30 too, and leads the league.

Henry is only more productive per catch, because he's getting deeper passes. Henry's completed air yards are 7.1 per target compared to 3.1 per target for Doyle. Doyle actually had more YAC at 3.2 per catch compared to Henry's 1.5. 

 

YAC is probably the best measure of "dynamic". It's also easier to get YAC the deeper the pass. You can also say that Henry gets better balls throw to him, at least last year. Henry's catchable target rate was 88.2%, compared to Doyle 77.8. Ten points is a pretty distinct advantage.

 

And one of the biggest measures of "dynamic" is separation. Doyle was one of the best in the league in terms of separation. He had 1.9 (#4 in the league) vs Henry's 1.38. Why doesn't someone who clearly is more dynamic have better separation lol.

 

So in short, Henry got deeper balls, Doyle got more yards after the catch and had better separation, and Doyle had to work harder for the catches. 

 

More TDs over the last two years? Did you forget Doyle was sharing time with Ebron?

While I agree he's been a possession TE the last two years, you're reaching bigly saying he benefited from JB. Doyle's performance was impacted by JB to the negative. Doyle's catch rate with Luck was 78.8 vs 59.7 with JB. He had 4.3 CAY with Luck vs 3.1 with JB. Doyles receptions per game decreased as well. And his yards per target also suffered. Not sure how he benefited from JB lol. 

Doyle has been injured too, and has shared a lot of time with other high end TEs when healthy. He had 690 yards with JB the first time around when he didn't have Ebron taking snaps.

 

In short, we'll see how well he looks with Rivers now that he is likely the #1 guy. My bet is he looks the part. We can compare after the season.

As a former Chargers, now new Colts fan, here is my over-simplified prediction this year:

The Colts' pass catchers will look a lot better this year, while the Chargers' pass catchers will look worse.

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6 minutes ago, DontEverGiveUp said:

As a former Chargers, now new Colts fan, here is my over-simplified prediction this year:

The Colts' pass catchers will look a lot better this year, while the Chargers' pass catchers will look worse.

Agreed. I know they'll look better than with JB, the question is, will they look better than with Luck. IMO, Rivers is better in terms of timing and accuracy with short to intermediate routes than Luck was.

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2 hours ago, DontEverGiveUp said:

I respectfully disagree about the Chargers' chances of making the AFC championship.

 

The return of Derwin James and the additions they made to both lines will certainly help, but I think overall, they are farther away from becoming a legit contender.

 

They have been terrible at running the ball since Lynn took over (they were terrible before that too), the loss of Rivers is more significant than people seem to recognize, and the defense is not quite there yet.  In fact, this notion that the defense will suddenly be top 3 is kinda funny to me.  They were bad last year, and I just don't think the pieces they added will bring them from bottom half/third in the league to top 3.

 

Add in the fact that I think Lynn is way overrated and Gus Bradley is still running his "picket fence" scheme, and I think the ceiling for the Chargers in 2020 is 9-7.  I see them finishing at 7-9, despite a favorable schedule.

 

Hoping for the best for guys like Allen, Bosa, Ekeler, and Henry, but I just can't buy in to the hype at this point.

Agree. PFF picked them to have the worst record in the league based on their statistical analysis. 
 

It’s comical to me when Chargers’ fans think Rivers’ departure will improve the Chargers. And many truly believe that. 

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2 minutes ago, Bolts2Colts said:

Agree. PFF picked them to have the worst record in the league based on their statistical analysis. 
 

It’s comical to me when Chargers’ fans think Rivers’ departure will improve the Chargers. And many truly believe that. 

I'm a bit surprised to hear that. I only know a few Charger's fans, but all of them are unhappy and will be following the Colts this year.

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2 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

I'm a bit surprised to hear that. I only know a few Charger's fans, but all of them are unhappy and will be following the Colts this year.

Fans were frustrated by the ill-timed interceptions. He made a handful of stupid throws at key moments. Unsophisticated fans think if the Chargers can just eliminate those interceptions they are a much better team. They don’t consider all the positives he brought, because after 15 years they take those all for granted. His accuracy, anticipation, ability to read every defense, quick release, durability, leadership etc—all meaningless.  
 

You don’t know what you’ve got until it’s gone. 

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6 minutes ago, Bolts2Colts said:

Fans were frustrated by the ill-timed interceptions. He made a handful of stupid throws at key moments. Unsophisticated fans think if the Chargers can just eliminate those interceptions they are a much better team. They don’t consider all the positives he brought, because after 15 years they take those all for granted. His accuracy, anticipation, ability to read every defense, quick release, durability, leadership etc—all meaningless.  
 

You don’t know what you’ve got until it’s gone. 

Thanks for the input. I guess they forgot he was pretty darn good in 2018 and hasn't had an OL ranked above 26th since 2014. I'm surprised more fans weren't feeling sorry for him like most of us did for Luck before the OL overhaul. 

 

Honestly, I'd be surprised if he didn't do well this year. Guessing those Charger fans you're talking about may feel differently after this year if he does well. At the same time though, some times it's just good to part ways for both parties. I think Rivers absolutely got the better deal in the separation though.

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On 8/21/2020 at 11:17 AM, Coffeedrinker said:

So if you don't count the Colts best receiver, they don't have anyone as good as the Chargers best receiver.  That is like saying, in 2019, if you take out Philip Rivers who on the chargers was as good as Jacoby Brissett?

 

Also Hines has every chance of filling that Eckler role.  Will he catch 92?  I doubt it, as it stands right now, Rivers will have a lot more weapons in Indy than he did with the Chargers last year, but Hines should be up there in receptions, he had 63 as a rookie, so it's not out of the question that he can eclipse that with another competent QB.

They're lying to you.  Just sayin'

 

Read the previous interactions. The person I was talking to kept referencing "without Keenan Allen" or "except for Keenan Allen". That is why that statement was made.

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2 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Thanks for the input. I guess they forgot he was pretty darn good in 2018 and hasn't had an OL ranked above 26th since 2014. I'm surprised more fans weren't feeling sorry for him like most of us did for Luck before the OL overhaul. 

 

Honestly, I'd be surprised if he didn't do well this year. Guessing those Charger fans you're talking about may feel differently after this year if he does well. At the same time though, some times it's just good to part ways for both parties. I think Rivers absolutely got the better deal in the separation though.

Rivers took some huge hits but always got right back up.  Difficult for fans to feel sorry for someone who doesn’t seem to be suffering and never blames anyone but himself. 
 

I agree the parting was best for both sides. Not that he expresses this, but I don’t think Rivers respects Lynn or the Chargers organization like he does the Colts and that makes a huge difference for a 17-year vet. 
 

Most Chargers fans want Rivers to do well in Indy.  I’m hoping for a season like Peyton had his first year in Denver. That would be something special.  

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On 8/21/2020 at 3:02 PM, DontEverGiveUp said:

I have no hesitation in stating that Rivers could be a top 5 QB in 2020.  In 14 years as a starter, he has been top 5 at least five times, and almost always top 10.  His last top 5 season was in 2018, only two seasons ago.

 

This year Rivers will be gifted with the best OL and coaching staff of his career.  He needs an actual pocket to throw from, and that just didn't exist in LA last year.  It's truly amazing how well he did for a decade while SD/LA had a bottom 5 OL.  This is one of the reasons NFL players and coaches regard Rivers much higher than casual fans.

 

Top 5 in 2018? Which of these QB's was he better than in 2018? Andrew Luck, Patrick Mahomes, Tom Brady, Matt Ryan, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Ben Roethlisberger or Jared Goff? He was a Top 10 QB that year, but definitely wasn't a Top 5 QB. He has also not received a vote for MVP since 2009.

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11 minutes ago, Bolts2Colts said:

Rivers took some huge hits but always got right back up.  Difficult for fans to feel sorry for someone who doesn’t seem to be suffering and never blames anyone but himself. 
 

I agree the parting was best for both sides. Not that he expresses this, but I don’t think Rivers respects Lynn or the Chargers organization like he does the Colts and that makes a huge difference for a 17-year vet. 
 

Most Chargers fans want Rivers to do well in Indy.  I’m hoping for a season like Peyton had his first year in Denver. That would be something special.  

I definitely think Rivers will be somewhat rejuvenated this year, so I wouldn't be surprised to see a big year from him. Big upgrade in OL, a chip on his shoulder with something to prove, a much better running game to rely on, a coach who knows him, etc.. It really was a great place for him to land. If the WRs stay healthy and play well, could be a special year for him.

 

Anyway, super happy to have him.

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2 minutes ago, Grigson's Gaffes said:

 

Top 5 in 2018? Which of these QB's was he better than in 2018? Andrew Luck, Patrick Mahomes, Tom Brady, Matt Ryan, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Ben Roethlisberger or Jared Goff? He was a Top 10 QB that year, but definitely wasn't a Top 5 QB. He has also not received a vote for MVP since 2009.

He was top 10 in every meaningful stat. That's incredibly consistent, and I'd guess if you looked at all the QBs you mentioned for those same stats, and came up with a composite, Rivers would probably be somewhere around 5th. And doing that with a very bad OL makes all that even more impressive. Mahomes to me was an easy #1, but after that, the next 7ish are all pretty close and debatable. 

 

5th in passer rating

3rd in AVG

7th in QBR

8th in yards

8th in completion %

7th in TDs

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19 hours ago, EastStreet said:

I disagree. Neither ran the combine. Henry did a pro day, but pro days are infamous for home cooking numbers. The services during Doyle's draft year projected him mid 4.7s which is not far off Henry's pro day. 

So age is the biggest factor in being "dynamic"? lol... Come on. Kelce is 30 too, and leads the league.

Henry is only more productive per catch, because he's getting deeper passes. Henry's completed air yards are 7.1 per target compared to 3.1 per target for Doyle. Doyle actually had more YAC at 3.2 per catch compared to Henry's 1.5. 

 

YAC is probably the best measure of "dynamic". It's also easier to get YAC the deeper the pass. You can also say that Henry gets better balls throw to him, at least last year. Henry's catchable target rate was 88.2%, compared to Doyle 77.8. Ten points is a pretty distinct advantage.

 

And one of the biggest measures of "dynamic" is separation. Doyle was one of the best in the league in terms of separation. He had 1.9 (#4 in the league) vs Henry's 1.38. Why doesn't someone who clearly is more dynamic have better separation lol.

 

So in short, Henry got deeper balls, Doyle got more yards after the catch and had better separation, and Doyle had to work harder for the catches. 

 

More TDs over the last two years? Did you forget Doyle was sharing time with Ebron?

While I agree he's been a possession TE the last two years, you're reaching bigly saying he benefited from JB. Doyle's performance was impacted by JB to the negative. Doyle's catch rate with Luck was 78.8 vs 59.7 with JB. He had 4.3 CAY with Luck vs 3.1 with JB. Doyles receptions per game decreased as well. And his yards per target also suffered. Not sure how he benefited from JB lol. 

Doyle has been injured too, and has shared a lot of time with other high end TEs when healthy. He had 690 yards with JB the first time around when he didn't have Ebron taking snaps.

 

In short, we'll see how well he looks with Rivers now that he is likely the #1 guy. My bet is he looks the part. We can compare after the season.

 

If we are using stats from playerprofiler.com...we should use their 40 times then. On that site, they are listed as .19 apart...which is basically .2. I don't think the idea that Henry has better speed and agility than Doyle is all that controversial...that's never been Doyle's game.

 

I do also think age is factor...just look at Jimmy Graham or nearly any other TE as he ages. Doyle was never a dynamic player like Kelce was...and Kelce is perhaps top 5 all-time...so I don't think what he is doing at his age is really applicable to Doyle.

 

As for stats, I think the air yards is much more indicative of Henry being more dynamic...than YAC. It would definitely seem like teams respect Henry more...as they give him much more cushion than Doyle.

 

Last season was somewhat of an outlier for YAC...as Henry's YAC was more than 2x higher in 2017. But as many have pointed out...Rivers loves to throw it up and let his guy make a play....and this was especially true last year. 

 

The result was Henry having several diving grabs or making contested catches up the seam or on the sideline. Naturally...this would result in a lower YAC and lower separation.

 

To illustrate...Doyle had 1 contested catch on 8 targets...Henry had 12 contested catches on 16 targets (20% of his total receptions were contested catches). Henry was just much better at contested catches last year (and I would argue...catching the ball overall)...but this is also big context to what was happening when these guys caught the ball last year. 

 

But YAC and separation are really the only areas that Doyle was "better" last year. Once you get to efficiency stats...it's not even close. Henry was #4 in Production Premium last year...while Doyle was #22. And despite having the 3rd highest average target distance...Henry's QB had a passer rating of 114 when targeting him...while Doyle's QB had a passer rating of 84...despite throwing much shorter passes...which are typically higher percentage throws. 

 

And while Henry had Rivers and Doyle had JB...let's not forget that they had identical passer ratings last year...so everything Henry did was against the backdrop of one of Rivers' worst seasons. And it could be argued that Henry helped Rivers a lot more than Doyle helped JB...as pass catchers.

 

I like Doyle...but I don't think it's particularly close between these two...so I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I think a healthy Hunter Henry has top 5 TE potential...and could push for a 1,000/10 type of a season. If LAC lets him go...I hope Ballard takes advantage. And then we can have both Doyle and Henry on the same team.

 

 

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12 hours ago, Grigson's Gaffes said:

 

Top 5 in 2018? Which of these QB's was he better than in 2018? Andrew Luck, Patrick Mahomes, Tom Brady, Matt Ryan, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Ben Roethlisberger or Jared Goff? He was a Top 10 QB that year, but definitely wasn't a Top 5 QB. He has also not received a vote for MVP since 2009.

The fact that he was the third name being mentioned in the MVP race, behind Mahomes and Brees, is a pretty good indication that he was a top 5 QB that year.

 

As for your list of other QBs, Rivers had an equal or better year than Brady, Luck, Goff, Rodgers, and Roethlisberger.  He also led a team with a terrible OL and suspect coaches to the best (tied) record in the AFC, including some thrilling 4th quarter comebacks in primetime.

 

You're being intentionally obtuse if you are arguing that Rivers wasn't too 5 in 2018.  It's not really up for debate.

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20 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Agreed. I know they'll look better than with JB, the question is, will they look better than with Luck. IMO, Rivers is better in terms of timing and accuracy with short to intermediate routes than Luck was.

 

We'll see, of course, but the biggest key to me is how well the team manages Philip's arm health as the season goes along. Let's be honest here (and outside of his family, there's been no bigger fan of Philip for longer than me, as I've watched him since his high school days in our former home town), he has shown moments where his arm has looked "dead" (or close to it), especially last year. Now, unknown to most (since most haven't followed him on a daily basis throughout his entire career), he first started showing signs of very slight decline physically in late 2014/early 2015. To his (and the Chargers') credit, his arm health has been managed quite well since then. But even so, there have been occasional moments of, oh, let's just say less than optimal ability. But only moments of them, and not many.

 

Yet.

 

So we shall see. But if the Colts do a good job managing his arm health throughout the season, with the almost impossible to calculate improved cast around him here compared to the H-E-L-L he escaped, there's no reason to believe he can't be largely the same guy who was the best on the planet from 2008 - 2010, forget about the 2018 everyone keeps referring to.

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3 hours ago, DontEverGiveUp said:

The fact that he was the third name being mentioned in the MVP race, behind Mahomes and Brees, is a pretty good indication that he was a top 5 QB that year.

 

As for your list of other QBs, Rivers had an equal or better year than Brady, Luck, Goff, Rodgers, and Roethlisberger.  He also led a team with a terrible OL and suspect coaches to the best (tied) record in the AFC, including some thrilling 4th quarter comebacks in primetime.

 

You're being intentionally obtuse if you are arguing that Rivers wasn't too 5 in 2018.  It's not really up for debate.

 

The Chargers O-Line was middle of the pack in 2018, they weren’t “terrible” they actually improved as the year went on. Again, he didn’t actually receive an MVP vote and you could have made a case for any other QB on that list I mentioned. You can’t say he was equal to those other guys and then say no brainer Top 5. If asked for Top 5 QB’s in NFL in 2018 to people at the time you’re getting Mahomes, Brees, Brady, Rodgers and Luck. Big Ben had 5100 yards that year as well. Rivers had a good, top 10 season. Not Top 5 though.

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On 8/18/2020 at 5:50 PM, Grigson's Gaffes said:

 

If you think Pascal, Pittman or Campbell have done anything on the field to be deemed as talented as Mike Williams, I can't help you. He had 10 TD's in his second season and 1000 yds on just 49 catches last year. A majority of NFL games are going to be decided by one score or less. Not having a consistent kicking game is an achilles heal. Again, I don't think it's farfetched that Rivers is an upgrade, but to pretend he is going to come in and carve people up like he's a Top 5 QB is baffling.

I agree with you. Being a colt fan I hope I am wrong but I watched a lot of Rivers games last year and there was no zip on his passes and he was making a lot of bad decisions. And I agree his offensive line isn't as good as the colts but his skill players are better than the colts. Until Pittman and Campbell prove they can play in the NFL and TY can stay healthy I will take Allen, Williams, Hunter Henry, Gordon and Ekeler any day over the colts skill players. Remember just because you were good in college does not mean you will excel in the NFL. But I do feel that Rivers is a slight upgrade over Brissett. Just remember when Rivers throws an interception at a key time of the game I don't want to see all the homers crying the blues because it is going to happen because Rivers takes chances!

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