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Just how good is Kenny Moore?


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1 minute ago, CR91 said:

 

Imo, much harder covering the slot then outside.

 

A young Chris Harris (Broncos CB) is what I see in him.

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Top 5, no. Top 25, yes.

 

He's much better inside at NB than outside. Keep in mind that he played a bit outside when we came out of Nickel and into straight C2. Especially when Desir was out. He has low YPC but also gave up a decent catch rate (comp/targ). The low YPC is likely also a product of our soft zone. 

 

I love the guy, and he's definitely good, I just think this is a bit of over-hype. In his defense, I think his numbers will look a lot better with a better pass rush. I do think he'll have his best year this season. If we see more man I could see his INTs going up! And I'd love to see some corner blitzing.

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1 minute ago, EastStreet said:

Top 5, no. Top 25, yes.

 

He's much better inside at NB than outside.

That is what the post was saying.

 

He is top 5 rated CB while lining up in the slot.

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29 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

The Colts gave Moore a very big contract before they were required to.   That gives an indication of just how good they think he is....

Gave JB a contract too though.

 

:peek:

 

Moore II is solid though, great pick up from Patriots cuts.

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5 minutes ago, w87r said:

That is what the post was saying.

 

He is top 5 rated CB while lining up in the slot.

Is he a top 5 NB/slot, maybe. Is he a top 5 CB (which is the tweet says), no.

 

Brian Pool, Kwaun Williams,  Mike Hilton, and Tramon Williams are all better at NB than Moore IMO. Maybe J Jones from the Pats too but that's debatable. So I'd say he's the 5th or 6th best NB, which is still very very good given the names I just listed. If you add in all the outside CBs to the conversation, he'll end up in the 20-30 range IMO, which is still very good considering we have 90ish CBs that are considered starters. I'll take top 1/3 any day, especially given our weak pressure %s.

15 minutes ago, w87r said:

Moore II is solid though, great pick up from Patriots cuts.

 

HUGE value and outstanding find.

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I think you pick the top guys pretty well, I disagree some on the apparent seperation between them from you.... I think Moore is right there neck and neck with those guys, all things said.... But, good list nevertheless

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25 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Is he a top 5 NB/slot, maybe. Is he a top 5 CB (which is the tweet says), no.

The picture on the tweet though says top 5 rated CB while lined up in slot. 

 

 

 

He definitely isn't top 5 overall, as you said, possibly top 5 NB, it's arguable at least.

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I don’t care where people rate him.  
 

We all know our defense really fell apart when he went down.  Not the only reason, but a big part of it. 

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1 minute ago, w87r said:

The picture on the tweet though says top 5 rated CB while lined up in slot.

 

He definitely isn't top 5 overall, as you said, possibly top 5 NB, its3 arguable at least.

 

But he's using a stat (passer rating) compared to all. And you just can't really compare that # when comparing inside to outside CBs. Slots are generally better when it comes to passer rating simply because of depth, and who they are defending.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love Kenny. I think he'll move up the ranks this year given the DL improvement. I could see him top 3 NBs and top 15 overall. 

 

I just checked overall CB ranks (inside and outside), and PFF ranks him tied for 25th which I think is pretty fair. He's listed as the 7th best NB. I forgot a few of the names. I'd personally put him at 5th or 6th.

 

**Also, keep in mind Rock's second half of the season would land him top 15 on this list.

 

Here's the NBs they rank ahead of him.

Quote

 

6. TRAMON WILLIAMS, GREEN BAY PACKERS

Williams' uncanny ability to perform in both the slot and at outside corner is remarkable. His vast experience and knowledge of the game allow for his fluid movement from a nickel and dime defender to even playing on the island as an outside corner. Among the top 25 highest-graded corners, Williams has allowed the 13th-fewest first-down receptions (20), a top-40 passer rating when targeted (84.0, 32nd) and a forced incompletion rate of 14% that ranks 27th among all players at the position. Williams' return to the Packers has coincided with the team's defensive revival this season — it seems that Father Time has been kind to the 36-year-old cornerback.

 

8. BRIAN POOLE, NEW YORK JETS

Say hello to the highest-graded slot cornerback in our top-25 ranking. New York's Brian Poole excels at the nickel corner position by using great vision during his zone-coverage reads.

Poole-near-INT.gif

 

In the play above, watch Poole’s quick pre-snap read where he recognizes the motion as an alert to the tunnel screen. Poole then makes an aggressive break on the ball, where he steals the passing lane and nearly intercepts Tom Brady.

 

Poole is a seasoned four-year veteran who has limited opposing quarterbacks to the third-fewest passing yards (244) of any cornerback listed in our top 25 and allowed the second-fewest first-down receptions (11) among that same group. His short-range quickness has allowed him to thrive in the slot, where he's allowed a 72.1 passer rating and only 0.57 yards per slot coverage snap, ranking eighth and tied for first, respectively, among the NFL's 53 qualifying slot cornerbacks.

Quietly, Brian Poole has become an ascending player on a Jets defense that is beginning to make a lot of noise.

 

9. JASON MCCOURTY, NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS

*** only part time NB

It has all come together for the 11th-year veteran corner, who once ran a 4.3-second 40-yard dash before he entered the league in 2009.

 

As the starting corner opposite Stephon Gilmore, McCourty is often left on an island where he is asked to play press man-to-man coverage with very little help. He is also asked to occasionally kick inside as a dime/slot defender, and he still remains as one of only four qualifying cornerbacks who has not allowed a touchdown pass this season. He has directly contributed to the Patriots' top-ranked PFF coverage grade (92.7) by allowing only 10 first-down receptions, the fewest surrendered by any qualifying corner in the NFL.

 

14. K'WAUN WILLIAMS, SAN FRANCISCO 49ERS

A true slot/nickel cornerback, Williams plays well through the heavy traffic that is inherent to the position, and he has excellent field awareness that allows him to react well to screens and completions in the flat area. Mostly a zone defender in nickel, Williams has read the patterns of route combinations well enough to hold opposing offenses to the lowest average depth of target (3.8) among all cornerbacks who played at least 300 coverage snaps in 2019. He's allowed just 8.1 yards per reception all year long — second among qualifying players at the position — while giving up only 18 first-down receptions across his 60 targets. Along with Richard Sherman, Williams has been a stabilizing force in the 49ers' secondary and has far exceeded the below-average performance of fellow perimeter corners Emmanuel Moseley (68.0 coverage grade) and Ahkello Witherspoon (63.5).

 

18. MIKE HILTON, PITTSBURGH STEELERS

The 5-foot-9, 184-pound Mike Hilton is a prototypical nickel corner who finalizes the trio of Steelers’ cornerbacks that made our top-25 list.

With excellent hips and an exceptional feel for the position, Hilton patrols the middle of the field while matching up perfectly to route combinations. As a primary sub-package defender, Hilton is responsible for defending the sticks and preventing first downs. He was targeted 58 times in the regular season but allowed only 19 first-down receptions, 17th among all NFL corners. Hilton is part of a Steel Curtain renaissance that is in its early stages of development.

 

19. NICKELL ROBEY-COLEMAN, LOS ANGELES RAMS

Nickell Robey-Coleman continues to solidify himself as one of the league’s best slot cornerbacks. He accelerates with quick closing speed after showing patience in press man-to-man coverage, and he is good enough to stick with receivers at the top of their routes.

As a seven-year veteran who anchors the middle between fellow corners Jalen Ramsey and Troy Hill, Robey-Coleman allowed just an 80.1 passer rating and 0.63 yards per slot coverage snap through Week 17, ranking 13th and sixth, respectively, among qualifying slot cornerbacks in 2019. The Rams finished with the 10th-best coverage (83.9) in the league this year, and Robey-Coleman will continue to play a significant role in any future success.

 

24. JONATHAN JONES, NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS

Jonathan Jones is a smart player who serves primarily as the Patriots' nickel corner between Stephon Gilmore and Jason McCourty. He has smooth and fluid hips to assist with the transition from a back peddle to a turn-and-run defender. As an inside slot defender, Jones is often left on a huge island in the middle of the field as the Patriots play their staple zero coverage.

J.Jones-in-Zero-Coverage.gif

The above clip illustrates a zero coverage without a free safety in the middle of the field. Watch Jones in the bottom slot, where he is vulnerable to the potential two-way go and settles at the 45-yard line. With fluid hips, he turns and recovers to protect against the middle-of-the-field throw. Among corners who played a minimum of 35 coverage snaps in zero coverage, Jones has the sixth-best PFF coverage grade (71.3) and the second-best forced incompletion rate (30.0%) when targeted.

 

T-25. KENNY MOORE II, INDIANAPOLIS COLTS

At 5-foot-9, Kenny Moore II is used primarily as a slot cornerback, but he also moves outside to the perimeter when the Colts move into a Cover-2 zone defense.

Moore’s two interceptions in 2019 came at nickel corner, where he has an excellent feel for action over the middle of the field. He allowed just 8.9 yards per reception in 2019, fifth among the 120 cornerbacks who saw at least 300 snaps in coverage, and his 27th-ranked 84.4 passer rating allowed betters the marks of both Jaire Alexander (87.8, 33rd) and Casey Hayward Jr. (88.0, 34th). After three years in the Colts' secondary, Moore has become a steady performer.

 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-pff-rankings-top-25-cornerbacks-through-week-17

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1 hour ago, EastStreet said:

Top 5, no. Top 25, yes.

 

He's much better inside at NB than outside. Keep in mind that he played a bit outside when we came out of Nickel and into straight C2. Especially when Desir was out. He has low YPC but also gave up a decent catch rate (comp/targ). The low YPC is likely also a product of our soft zone. 

 

I love the guy, and he's definitely good, I just think this is a bit of over-hype. In his defense, I think his numbers will look a lot better with a better pass rush. I do think he'll have his best year this season. If we see more man I could see his INTs going up! And I'd love to see some corner blitzing.

 

I think their were referring to his QBR allowed not his overall ranking

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2 minutes ago, CR91 said:

 

I think their were referring to his QBR allowed not his overall ranking

IDK. 

 

He says

 

Quote

"top 5 cb in the leauge. i said what i said "

 

and the caption says

 

Quote

"Kenny Moore has only allowed a 74.9 passer rating when aligned in the slot over the past two seasons. 5th among CBs."

 

Maybe he just didn't articulate what he meant.

Regardless, I think we can all agree he's not top 5 overall.

 

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Kenny Moore like Leonard is a play maker. It’s hard to find those type of players.  He is probably more important then Leonard. Kenny is also one of the best tacklers on the team. His football instincts are top notch.

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22 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

Kenny Moore like Leonard is a play maker. It’s hard to find those type of players.  He is probably more important then Leonard. Kenny is also one of the best tacklers on the team. His football instincts are top notch.

giphy.gif

 

 

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47 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

You can laugh all you want but when Moore hurt his ankle our defense fell a part.  We still won without Darius. 

Moore missed Weeks 7, and 14-17, total of 5 games. 

 

We won two of the 5, giving up an average of 14.5 points. We certainly didn't fall apart those games.

 

We lost vs NO, Tampa, and the last game of the season to the Jags. Of the 3:

 

@NO - had more to do with us having ZERO offense. We punted almost every down, and only got a TD in garbage time at the end of the game. TOP was probably close to 2:1. We got burnt mid to deep a lot that game IIRC (Brees AVG wsa 10+), which wasn't something Moore would have impacted. Khari had a bad game too if memory serves. Everybody thought we'd get blown out anyway, so saying we fell apart against a top 5 offense isn't really saying much.

 

@TB - another top 5 offense and #1 passing offense. Another 10+ QB AVG. Another bad game from Willis, and Hooker also gave up a deep one play drive TD. Safety play in general sucked as we were giving up mid and deep shots all day to Winston (which is what he does). Milligan and Odum looked awful too.

 

@Jax - zero point second half, zero passing TDs, and 2 fumbles from JB is what doomed us. Brissett had a QBR of 7.6. I don't think I've ever seen a QBR that low. We had both Willis and Moore out. Ugly game, but we were up a TD at half and our O did zero after that.

 

 

In short, you're reaching here. Sure we missed him, but there's a lot more to the story. 

 

 

 

 

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46 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

You can laugh all you want but when Moore hurt his ankle our defense fell a part.  We still won without Darius. 

Nobody is laughing, I was laughing at @EastStreet Gif. Moore is a good player and very important but Darius is our best defensive player on the team.

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  • 1 month later...
On 6/27/2020 at 12:31 PM, EastStreet said:

Moore missed Weeks 7, and 14-17, total of 5 games. 

 

We certainly didn't fall apart those games.

Yes, yes  they did.

 

 

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On 6/27/2020 at 8:42 AM, Chloe6124 said:

Kenny Moore like Leonard is a play maker. It’s hard to find those type of players.  He is probably more important then Leonard. Kenny is also one of the best tacklers on the team. His football instincts are top notch.

 

He's not more important than Leonard.  Leonard is a team captain and the leader of our D.  He's been an all-pro in both of his NFL seasons.  He gets more interceptions, tackles, sacks and overall big plays than Moore.  

 

I like Moore.  He's a good player in the slot, and slot corners typically don't play every down... Leonard does.  

 

If it came to having to get rid of one of the two, it'd be moronic to replace a 2x all-pro, probowler and league leader in tackles instead of a nickel cornerback.

 

On 6/27/2020 at 11:33 AM, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Nobody is laughing, I was laughing at @EastStreet Gif. Moore is a good player and very important but Darius is our best defensive player on the team.

 

Agreed, though I think one could argue Buckner may be the best player on defense.  Either way, I think having them in the same front 7 will help both and everyone else on D.

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On 8/12/2020 at 3:04 PM, Dogg63 said:

Yes, yes  they did.

 

 

 

That data in the tweet above is surface level at best, and lacks context. Take a look at the game breakdown above. It has more to do with playing 2 top five passing teams than anything else. Winston and Brees are two top 10 QBs (#s). And having zero offense for a few of those losses also added to the stress on our D.

 

It also doesn't account for other injured DBs during those weeks. IIRC, Willis, Desir, Wilson, Hooker, Geathers, and Rock all missed time or were banged up during that late stretch.

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On 8/13/2020 at 11:48 PM, EastStreet said:

 

That data in the tweet above is surface level at best, and lacks context. Take a look at the game breakdown above. It has more to do with playing 2 top five passing teams than anything else. Winston and Brees are two top 10 QBs (#s). And having zero offense for a few of those losses also added to the stress on our D.

 

It also doesn't account for other injured DBs during those weeks. IIRC, Willis, Desir, Wilson, Hooker, Geathers, and Rock all missed time or were banged up during that late stretch.

Did you read the article, or did you just spin the tweet? I don't have a subscription to the athletic, but from their reputation, the article likely has more than 'surface level at best' underpinnings to their analysis. Perhaps not.

 

Btw, welcome back. Was starting to wonder if you were taking an extended break from the forum.

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4 minutes ago, Dogg63 said:

Did you read the article, or did you just spin the tweet? I don't have a subscription to the athletic, but from their reputation, the article likely has more than 'surface level at best' underpinnings to their analysis. Perhaps not.

 

Btw, welcome back. Was starting to wonder if you were taking an extended break from the forum.

 

Thanks. I did take a little break. There was nothing new, and was tired of reading the re-hashing of old stuff lol. Things should be starting to heat up a bit with new news, so decided to jump back in. I'm a little stir crazy, but at least the Pacers are getting ready to start the playoffs. Hoping they keep going until FB starts.

 

Don't have a sub anymore (Athletic), but I have looked at all those games in detail (some of the info in previous post). There are a lot of reasons we fell off. Losing Moore obviously impacted our pass D, but there was a lot more to the story. We played some very good QBs, we had other DB's injured, our O stunk (we had an atrocious number of 3 and outs), our pressure % stunk, etc.. We also got torched deep, which is not even Kenny's area. Rock was the only DB we had playing at a high level late in the year. Willis really got picked on a few games. Hooker was up and down.

 

The Athletic is pretty good, but they used to be a lot better. Their college coverage has really dropped off. Not a huge fan of Keefer (who wrote the article) either, but he's OK. He was just picked up by WISH (Indy's CW) which is an upgrade though to their coverage.

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