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5 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

LeBron will never catch Jordan for GOAT IMO. I personally think Magic was better by a hair over LeBron but that is another topic. Peyton is considered by most of the media 3rd best ever, some still have Montana over him = understandable.

 

I have the Bucs going 11-5 this year and winning their division, so I think a lot of Brady. 

Yeah. I feel bad for Lebron. I personally like him a lot but all those finals losses will never be overcome.

 

In my view, the last 4 years since Manning has retired has showed just how big of a gap there was between him and Brady and everyone else. So if we are looking at just the past 25 years of football, I would put Brady first and then Manning. There has been no other QBs in the cap/FA era that have had as much control of the offense and the game as those two. Two complete masters on the field.  Just my opinion of course but Brees, Rodgers, Favre, etc. they just don't measure up to the high level of Brady and Manning - you knew double digit wins every year and a division title and almost always a bye.

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9 minutes ago, FortheWin said:

Yeah. I feel bad for Lebron. I personally like him a lot but all those finals losses will never be overcome.

 

In my view, the last 4 years since Manning has retired has showed just how big of a gap there was between him and Brady and everyone else. So if we are looking at just the past 25 years of football, I would put Brady first and then Manning. There has been no other QBs in the cap/FA era that have had as much control of the offense and the game as those two. Two complete masters on the field.  Just my opinion of course but Brees, Rodgers, Favre, etc. they just don't measure up to the high level of Brady and Manning - you knew double digit wins every year and a division title and almost always a bye.

I do give BB a lot of credit for the Pats success but after playing under BB for years, I would be shocked if Brady couldn't go to half the teams in this league and win 10 or 11 games. I always felt like Peyton could win 10-12 as well with just an average team around him. Nobody can do it with a stinky team but you give those guys a decent line and average talent, they are winning 10 games IMO.

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10 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Peyton never had the defenses here in Indy that the Pats had either putting Tom in great situations. I would of rather just had Marvin Harrison + John Doe and a great defense than have a loaded offense. Brady had Moss and Welker and didn't win a SB in that time frame. Moss is a top 5 WR of all-time. Welker was good. You seen what Peyton did when he had a true great defense in Denver. He won a SB and wasn't near the same player he had been.

 

The forgotten aspect that Ballard emphasized even more than Polian and Grigson, in the first 2 rounds is O-line, his model is definitely the Patriots much like the Titans are doing now as a focal point.

 

The Patriots had better talent on the O-line and D-line drafted consistently and heck of an OL coach in Scar. They could thus play any style of offense in any weather, IMO, and it showed come playoff time. Thus it did not matter who Polian drafted for his skill positions in Round 1. If you cannot get Lilja to block Joey Porter or Ryan Diem to block McGinnest or Bruschi in critical passing down situations in the playoffs, it is all for naught against good playoff teams. Plus, Polian did not draft good special teams players, something Belichick NEVER took for granted.

 

So, the trenches and special teams were always Patriots advantages, IMO, and unless Peyton's offense overcame bad field position and inability to run with the OL drafted and the other team's ability to play clock control vs his weaker DL most of the time, it was never going to work in the playoffs. The results showed that when they finally ran the ball with commitment on their way to a SB thus being able to keep a smaller and speedier defense's legs fresh and able to overcome the continual bad field positioning, thanks to so many KR/PR that went for chunks or punters having field days (Ellis Hobbs, Dante Hall, Devin Hester, and even in Peyton's last game with Indy with Cromartie getting a huge return to set up Rex Ryan and Jets for a game winning FG, the list is endless and something Polian should be ashamed of). 

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3 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

The forgotten aspect that Ballard emphasized even more than Polian and Grigson, in the first 2 rounds is O-line, his model is definitely the Patriots much like the Titans are doing now as a focal point.

 

The Patriots had better talent on the O-line and D-line drafted consistently and heck of an OL coach in Scar. They could thus play any style of offense in any weather, IMO, and it showed come playoff time. Thus it did not matter who Polian drafted for his skill positions in Round 1. If you cannot get Lilja to block Joey Porter or Ryan Diem to block McGinnest or Bruschi in critical passing down situations in the playoffs, it is all for naught against good playoff teams. Plus, Polian did not draft good special teams players, something Belichick NEVER took for granted.

 

So, the trenches and special teams were always Patriots advantages, IMO, and unless Peyton's offense overcame bad field position and inability to run with the OL drafted and the other team's ability to play clock control vs his weaker DL most of the time, it was never going to work in the playoffs. The results showed that when they finally ran the ball with commitment on their way to a SB thus being able to keep a smaller and speedier defense's legs fresh and able to overcome the continual bad field positioning, thanks to so many KR/PR that went for chunks or punters having field days (Ellis Hobbs, Dante Hall, Devin Hester, and even in Peyton's last game with Indy with Cromartie getting a huge return to set up Rex Ryan and Jets for a game winning FG, the list is endless and something Polian should be ashamed of). 

Yeah I loved having an explosive offense, it kept us a contender for years but for example against Pitt in 2005, the O.Line failed big time. They were all over Manning all game.

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15 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I do give BB a lot of credit for the Pats success but after playing under BB for years, I would be shocked if Brady couldn't go to half the teams in this league and win 10 or 11 games. I always felt like Peyton could win 10-12 as well with just an average team around him. Nobody can do it with a stinky team but you give those guys a decent line and average talent, they are winning 10 games IMO.

 

Very true. If the team support is there w.r.t D and special teams for Peyton and Brady, that is the difference between winning 10 games vs 12-13 games and possibly getting HFA or a bye.

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2 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

Very true. If the team support is there w.r.t D and special teams for Peyton and Brady, that is the difference between winning 10 games vs 12-13 games and possibly getting HFA or a bye.

Yeah that is 2 QB's IMO that will get you 10 wins in their sleep. 13 if they have a good to great team around them.

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We will never know but had Manning and BB been together, Manning probably would've 5 or 6 SB's. That isn't taking away from what Brady has accomplished because I think Brady is awesome too. I just think Manning gets short changed because he only won 2, and Montana won 4, Brady 6. 

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4 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

We will never know but had Manning and BB been together, Manning probably would've 5 or 6 SB's. That isn't taking away from what Brady has accomplished because I think Brady is awesome too. I just think Manning gets short changed because he only won 2, and Montana won 4, Brady 6. 

I think Belichick is the toughest coach to play for. Not sure any QB, Manning or otherwise would have lasted 20 years with him. 

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On 5/28/2020 at 11:46 PM, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Peyton never had the defenses here in Indy that the Pats had either putting Tom in great situations. I would of rather just had Marvin Harrison + John Doe and a great defense than have a loaded offense. Brady had Moss and Welker and didn't win a SB in that time frame. Moss is a top 5 WR of all-time. Welker was good. You seen what Peyton did when he had a true great defense in Denver. He won a SB and wasn't near the same player he 

On 5/29/2020 at 6:54 AM, aaron11 said:

he had randy moss, gronk, some of the best slot receivers ever

 

poor Tom no talent to play with at all in his career 

Moss was near the end of his career, Gronk was great but frequently hurt, and the slot WRs?

Brady made Welker and Edelman. Edelman took several years to develop and Welker didn’t do anywhere near as well either before or after NE.

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1 hour ago, NFLUp said:

Moss was near the end of his career, Gronk was great but frequently hurt, and the slot WRs?

Brady made Welker and Edelman. Edelman took several years to develop and Welker didn’t do anywhere near as well either before or after NE.

moss was great there and so were gronk and welker.  stop making excuses for tom, he doesnt need them 

 

you might hurt yourself reaching that hard 

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On 5/28/2020 at 11:49 PM, ReMeDy said:

I've got a feeling Bruce Arians is going to get Tom Brady killed out there. Tom is going to need a lot more avocado ice-cream in that TB12 diet of his.

 

I have some thoughts on Arians' offense and playcalling, but Leftwich is the playcaller now. And I think they'll tailor things to fit Brady's strengths and maximize the weapons they have. I don't think Brady is as dangerous a passer as he once was, but it was only a couple years ago that he threw for 500 yards in the Super Bowl. 

 

Arians' calling plays for Ben and Luck (and even Jameis) -- who thrived in a downfield passing attack, who liked to hold on to the ball and shrug off tacklers -- probably doesn't have a whole lot of significance for the 2020 Bucs with Brady. Arians might be stubborn, but he's not stupid.

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1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

I have some thoughts on Arians' offense and playcalling, but Leftwich is the playcaller now. And I think they'll tailor things to fit Brady's strengths and maximize the weapons they have. I don't think Brady is as dangerous a passer as he once was, but it was only a couple years ago that he threw for 500 yards in the Super Bowl. 

 

Arians' calling plays for Ben and Luck (and even Jameis) -- who thrived in a downfield passing attack, who liked to hold on to the ball and shrug off tacklers -- probably doesn't have a whole lot of significance for the 2020 Bucs with Brady. Arians might be stubborn, but he's not stupid.

Not sure TB12 would make it to Bye Week if Arians was the playcaller

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1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

I have some thoughts on Arians' offense and playcalling, but Leftwich is the playcaller now. And I think they'll tailor things to fit Brady's strengths and maximize the weapons they have. I don't think Brady is as dangerous a passer as he once was, but it was only a couple years ago that he threw for 500 yards in the Super Bowl. 

 

Arians' calling plays for Ben and Luck (and even Jameis) -- who thrived in a downfield passing attack, who liked to hold on to the ball and shrug off tacklers -- probably doesn't have a whole lot of significance for the 2020 Bucs with Brady. Arians might be stubborn, but he's not stupid.

 

Agree. I think people underestimate the ability of coaches to tailor offenses towards their best players. This is especially true for the coaches that are actually good, which I think Arians is(even though I too have some thoughts on his offense and playcalling). 

 

You might actually argue Ben and Luck especially were used the way they were by Arians precisely because they they can actually do it and can actually mitigate some of the drawbacks of playing that type of offense. I think Arians is plenty smart enough to adjust his offense to what Brady can and cannot do. I still think Brady can be one of the better passers in the intermediate range and even take some shots downfield when well protected and he will have some of the best supporting casts and weapons he's had recently. I don't think Arians will ask Brady to do what he was asking Luck to do. 

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On 5/10/2020 at 11:21 PM, danlhart87 said:

you are joking right 

 

a team that has constantly missed the playoffs isn't anywhere near SB caliber worthy 

And you must be clueless to think that if Winston had not turned the ball over say 35 times they would’ve been a Super Bowl caliber team lol  come on now  even the Jags constantly miss the playoffs and had 1 year of a Super Bowl caliber team  worst part about it they kicked our * while throwing all those picks ( one pick 6) stop hating the teams good..turnovers from their Qb killed them but yes it’s fun to laugh at them just how we can laugh about how they trashed us :)

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On 5/28/2020 at 8:01 AM, TonyBungee said:

I don't know, the Bucs gave up the 4th most points in the NFL last year.  And with games against Brees (twice), Ryan (twice), Mahomes & Rodgers, I can see them in some shoot-outs.

There’s a huge misconception on bucs Def how would you play if your Qb keeps throwing turnovers and you’re constantly on the field? We had this same exact issue with our offense in terms of not scoring in the past and going 3 and out sending our tired Def back on the field then when they gave up the lead and we lose we blame them instead of the OFF

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On 5/31/2020 at 2:34 PM, PrincetonTiger said:

Not sure TB12 would make it to Bye Week if Arians was the playcaller

 

He would definitely make it to Bye Bye Week. :) 

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5 hours ago, will426 said:

There’s a huge misconception on bucs Def how would you play if your Qb keeps throwing turnovers and you’re constantly on the field? We had this same exact issue with our offense in terms of not scoring in the past and going 3 and out sending our tired Def back on the field then when they gave up the lead and we lose we blame them instead of the OFF

Good point, mistakes on offense can definitely make it harder on a defense. My comment was in response to the statement that it would be easier to stop the Bucs offense than to outscore them.  I still disagree with that.

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1 hour ago, TonyBungee said:

Good point, mistakes on offense can definitely make it harder on a defense. My comment was in response to the statement that it would be easier to stop the Bucs offense than to outscore them.  I still disagree with that.

I see what you mean now haha idk if Winston can throw like that with all the turnovers I can see Brady having a blast he’s light years better than Winston and he had zero weapons besides Edelman last year  an atrocious line no TE WR2 Rb   Last year and we’ve finally seen what it looks like when Brady’s off has no playmakers their def carried the hell out of them..he now comes to the bucs who’s line is suspect but they have a good Rb and also gronk/ oj Howard Godwin/Mike Evans  there’s no way that offense should be bad with Brady behind it as much as people don’t like him give him weapons he’ll kick * as bad as Winston was he was having shootouts because of the power of their OFF he literally caused all their losses throwing picks nonstop Brady isn’t throwing no damn 30 picks and fumbling 5 times in a season NEVER 

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On 5/30/2020 at 10:28 PM, aaron11 said:

moss was great there and so were gronk and welker.  stop making excuses for tom, he doesnt need them 

 

you might hurt yourself reaching that hard 

Moss was great for 2 years there.

thats it.

Gronk was great when he played, yes.

You do realize that Welker did nothing before coming to NE?  Brady made him famous.  
Fact is, Peyton always had first round picks on his offense.

Brady did not.

That was my point. 

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4 hours ago, NFLUp said:

Moss was great for 2 years there.

thats it.

Gronk was great when he played, yes.

 

thats when Brady was the most productive too.   Tom had a lot of great coaching while Peyton had weak head coaches expect for Dungy and GK.  Kubiak was only for one year i believe.  he was pretty good but a questionable fit for peyton. he liked more mobile QBs 

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10 minutes ago, aaron11 said:

thats when Brady was the most productive too.   Tom had a lot of great coaching while Peyton had weak head coaches expect for Dungy and GK.  Kubiak was only for one year i believe.  he was pretty good but a questionable fit for peyton. he liked more mobile QBs 

Kubiak was average IMO. Wade Phillips defense in Denver was a huge reason why Denver won the SB with Peyton. Dungy was great but not on BB's level. Caldwell = average, Fox = average. BB arguably the GOAT with the Pats.

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On 5/16/2020 at 10:15 AM, 2006Coltsbestever said:

We will come back to this post when the season is over. Bucs win 10 games easily, book it and make the playoffs.

 

I agree.

Brady will still dink & dunk as usual despite the much improved weapons. AND opposing DC's will give plenty of cushion to his targets like they did in new england.

 

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I find it amusing the narrative is the Bucs will suck bc Brady is declining but Colts are contenders with Rivers who imho is a lesser QB. 

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Brady was showing his age late last season and to think at 43 and

with a whole new system that his team is going to be a world beater

is amusing to me. He will have nothing left in the tank by game ten.

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On 5/29/2020 at 10:26 AM, FortheWin said:

Yeah. I feel bad for Lebron. I personally like him a lot but all those finals losses will never be overcome.

 

In my view, the last 4 years since Manning has retired has showed just how big of a gap there was between him and Brady and everyone else. So if we are looking at just the past 25 years of football, I would put Brady first and then Manning. There has been no other QBs in the cap/FA era that have had as much control of the offense and the game as those two. Two complete masters on the field.  Just my opinion of course but Brees, Rodgers, Favre, etc. they just don't measure up to the high level of Brady and Manning - you knew double digit wins every year and a division title and almost always a bye.

 

Without the SB wins, Brady would fit into the category with those other QBs. No one had the control over the offense like Manning did. Brady was just as much a product of his system as his teammates were. Idk what control you're talking about. BB doesnt let anyone else have control, and if you say otherwise I'm starting to doubt you even know. 

 

If BB gave up his control even a little, you might see brady in NE still. He left to go to Tampa, and his one stipulation was full control. Now why would he ask that if he had control over his offense in NE? 

 

Belichick only listens to the owner of the patriots team, who I wont name. And that's simply because he is required to. 

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3 hours ago, NannyMcafee said:

 

Without the SB wins, Brady would fit into the category with those other QBs. No one had the control over the offense like Manning did. Brady was just as much a product of his system as his teammates were. Idk what control you're talking about. BB doesnt let anyone else have control, and if you say otherwise I'm starting to doubt you even know. 

 

If BB gave up his control even a little, you might see brady in NE still. He left to go to Tampa, and his one stipulation was full control. Now why would he ask that if he had control over his offense in NE? 

 

Belichick only listens to the owner of the patriots team, who I wont name. And that's simply because he is required to. 

LOL. You mean all 6 wins and 9 appearances?  That is what you want to take out? I assume you kid.

 

I am not sure what to tell you about offenses but Brady has had as much control of any QB to ever play the game. Like I said, him and Manning stand alone in that regard mostly because neither one were very athletic so they relied on their minds to literally toy with defenses.

 

I was just reading recently that Mahomes as great as he is physically said he is still learning how to read defenses and that he relies mostly on his athletic ability and arm to make plays. That is really the difference I was highlighting. And you know, I am not sure if guys in the mold of Brady and Manning ever get looked at again in the draft with so much focus on athleticism now.

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2 hours ago, FortheWin said:

LOL. You mean all 6 wins and 9 appearances?  That is what you want to take out? I assume you kid.

 

I am not sure what to tell you about offenses but Brady has had as much control of any QB to ever play the game. Like I said, him and Manning stand alone in that regard mostly because neither one were very athletic so they relied on their minds to literally toy with defenses.

 

I was just reading recently that Mahomes as great as he is physically said he is still learning how to read defenses and that he relies mostly on his athletic ability and arm to make plays. That is really the difference I was highlighting. And you know, I am not sure if guys in the mold of Brady and Manning ever get looked at again in the draft with so much focus on athleticism now.

 

I regret saying this

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