Malik Hookers 5th year option Declined

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9 minutes ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

  It is my understanding that No highly talented player wants to play on the 5th year option.
 They want a long term contract with LOTS of guaranteed $$$.
  That salary Hooker would have gotten would also have been a slap in the face If he Played Well!
   He isn't out anything, and has the same contract year motivation.
  And i have no doubt that this move surprised him.
   

They don't want to play on the 5th year option because they want to get paid long-term before that. Not because they want to have their option refused and to risk injury in a contract year. 

 

The order of preference is long term contract before 5th year option>5th year option>refusing 5th year option

[Fluke_33]

ballard has often said that the locker room is watching on who is given big contracts.  Maybe part of this is his sticking to his mantra and in the long run a hope that players know it doesn't matter where you are selected and that you have to prove yourself every year. 

The right players will respond to that.

[DougDew]

7 minutes ago, stitches said:

 

In this system, yes, it will be hard to achieve extremely high value. But here we come to the point where you have to consider not only what he's worth for you but what he will be worth for someone else too. I think other GMs with teams that play more single high safety will still value Hooker highly and they will be able to project what impact he can have in their system, even if they are not watching him do it in the Colts system. Unless he suffers another injury I personally expect him to easily get paid more than that 6.7M we could have picked him for. 

He's a bit of a Johnny-one-note.  Plays single high.  Plays only FS.  Blackmon may not have the range Hooker does on the deep ball, but he's already a better tackler and can play nickel corner in a pinch. 

 

I think you and many others are overvaluing what Hooker brings.  Hooker's value is diminished by his inability to do anything very well other than to play one role in one S position.  That is a limited market, and limited marketability always drives the price down.

 

As some have mentioned, he doesn't seem to make it look like the QB is throwing into double coverage, and many if not all of his picks were because of overthrown balls, so he might not even do that single high thingy all that well.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Hooker and Desir both looked so bad the second half of the season last year. Hooker looked  like he didn’t even care.

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21 minutes ago, DougDew said:

He's a bit of a Johnny-one-note.  Plays single high.  Plays only FS.  Blackmon may not have the range Hooker does on the deep ball, but he's already a better tackler and can play nickel corner in a pinch, then Odum can step in at FS. 

 

I think you and many others are overvaluing what Hooker brings.  Hooker's value is diminished by his inability to do anything very well other than to play one role in one S position.  That is a limited market, and limited marketability always drives the price down.

 

As some have mentioned, he doesn't seem to make it look like the QB is throwing into double coverage, and many if not all of his picks were because of overthrown balls, so he might not even do that single high thingy all that well.

I disagree he does only one things well too. He has made strides with his tackling too, for all the bashing he gets on it. I also disagree that if he was doing only that one thing well that this will drop his value. There are enough teams that will value what he does. In 2018 he allowed something like 4 receptions on 9 targets. That's 1 reception for 131 snaps in coverage. His impact is more in what you don't see than in what you see. You don't see the overwhelming majority of snaps where he does his job extremely well in the backfield and dessuades a QB from even throwing his way. You see the odd missed tackle that indeed doesn't look great but is nowhere close to enough to overwhelm the positive effect he has in other parts of his game. 

 

Also people seem keen to excuse others for injuries, but completely disregard that he had a serious knee injury last year and instead of choosing to have the procedure that has best long-term prognosis(but would have cost him the season) he chose the one that will get him back on the field the quickest and he returned only 4-5 weeks after his surgery. After which, I completely agree that the last month or so of his season were not good, but IMO this was the situation with the whole defense, not just his play. There were so many issues with this defense after that Titans game. It looked like something broke in them after that special teams 10 point swing that lost us the game with 4 minutes to go. 

[shasta519]

1 hour ago, stitches said:

It's super weird situation now. At the same time you have noone close enough to his talent to take that spot and you are in win-now mode and by refusing his option you are declaring you don't believe in him. The thing with dealing him before at the very least Blackmon is healthy is that it leaves us with pretty much noone else at the position. Odum, Khari and Milligan are our only other safeties under contract. How do you trade Hooker if this is the depth behind at the position? And this is assuming perfect health from everybody. 

 

The more I think about it the more it looks to me like he won't be traded unless Blackmon returns from injury and takes his job sometime during the season. He will play out his contract and leave. 

 

Either way I don't like the decision-making by Ballard here. If he doesn't like Hooker, why did he do nothing to improve the position for this coming season? And if he does like Hooker, why didn't he pick his option? 

 

 

Yep...it's a weird situation for sure. Even picking it up the option with the intention of eventually trading him or not exercising it would have seemed the better play. It's not like Hooker's option amount was $10M+ like other players who were declined...it was really small. And even with most of his money already on the books...JB still costs $2M more than that...to be the backup QB this year. And I have heard from so many people is how the ~$9M they could get from moving on from JB isn't really needed. So it's not a money thing.

 

I can see him playing out his deal and leaving...but is he a disgruntled player? Seems like he would be motivated to earn a paycheck...but he's now playing for a team that has signaled to everyone they don't really believe in his talent/fit (because even with injuries...that option amount was very small).

 

So I can also see a scenario where he is traded and replaced by Berry...who fills in while Blackmon heals up and develops...and then they decrease his snaps as they ease Blackmon in. Berry is a sure tackler and a great vet presence...and has said he wants to come back and play with Houston. I think the shutdown has delayed the ability to get a physical done...and that's the biggest impediment to bringing in Berry. Once that lifts...I expect those talks to heat up.

 

 

 

 

[shasta519]

7 minutes ago, stitches said:

Also people seem keen to excuse others for injuries, but completely disregard that he had a serious knee injury last year and instead of choosing to have the procedure that has best long-term prognosis(but would have cost him the season) he chose the one that will get him back on the field the quickest and he returned only 4-5 weeks after his surgery. After which, I completely agree that the last month or so of his season were not good, but IMO this was the situation with the whole defense, not just his play. There were so many issues with this defense after that Titans game. It looked like something broke in them after that special teams 10 point swing that lost us the game with 4 minutes to go. 

 

Here's the disconnect for me...if the Colts don't think Hooker is the same player as he was before the ACL tear...or fear that he will continue to get hurt...and that has led to them not being willing to pick up his option...then why on earth did they just double down and draft a S that also just tore his ACL in December? Especially if Blackmon is meant to replace Hooker.

[ColtJax]

According to Ballard we received several trade offers during the draft. Something tells me it was for that we got for Wilson, a late round pick. Maybe this lights a fire under him, but if it does do we really trust a guy that lights it up only during a contract year??

[The Fish]

Haven't read the thread, so I'm guessing some of you said this, but Ballard did what?

I don't get it. I like Ballard's confidence on some level, but I'm also suspicious that he's going to find a guy as talented in the back of the draft. 

You pickup the option and secure position for a few years at a good price. Maybe after that you let him walk if you don't love his play, but this is creating more holes. 

 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, shastamasta said:

 

Here's the disconnect for me...if the Colts don't think Hooker is the same player as he was before the ACL tear...or fear that he will continue to get hurt...and that has led to them not being willing to pick up his option...then why on earth did they just double down and draft a S that also just tore his ACL in December? Especially if Blackmon is meant to replace Hooker.

I agree it's kind of ironic that they will hold hopes of replacing Hooker because of his health concerns with another player coming off an ACL injury. Devils advocate here - no two injuries are the same. Maybe the Blackmon injury seem much more mild(he said it was only ACL tear and had no other ligaments affected). Also Hooker has had another serious knee injury after the ACL. It's possible they worry more about his injuries than they do about Blackmon's? 

[shasta519]

20 minutes ago, stitches said:

I agree it's kind of ironic that they will hold hopes of replacing Hooker because of his health concerns with another player coming off an ACL injury. Devils advocate here - no two injuries are the same. Maybe the Blackmon injury seem much more mild(he said it was only ACL tear and had no other ligaments affected). Also Hooker has had another serious knee injury after the ACL. It's possible they worry more about his injuries than they do about Blackmon's? 

 

Yeah...I don't know the medicals for Blackmon...it just seems strange.

 

IF they don't bring in someone like Berry...I actually hope my boy Tell gets the first crack at Hooker's spot. Hot take...but I think he is a better S than Blackmon. 

[Myles]

36 minutes ago, ColtJax said:

According to Ballard we received several trade offers during the draft. Something tells me it was for that we got for Wilson, a late round pick. Maybe this lights a fire under him, but if it does do we really trust a guy that lights it up only during a contract year??

It could be that or we could see him improve because of the pressure we are able to put on opposing QB's.   I think if the D-line adds pressure, all our defense will benefit.  

 

I'm hoping this doesn't spread negatively through the locker room.  Players should be bigger than that, but we all know there will be conversations like:

That's nonsense, man!   They should be bringing you back.

Certainly he has friends on the team who will say similar things.   

I don't think it'll be a big deal though.   

[Rackeen305]

Colts fans:

Team xyz just released their starting safety and long snapper. They could be great fits.

 

So, Let's release Hooker. He isn't worth $6.7M...? (Every teams reject gets more praise/love or appreciation than Hooker since we drafted him. Ijbh) 

 

We are talking about an "option" of $6.7M for an NFL player. Not a cook, not an office manager, nor fire fighter or electrician.

 

$6.7M is cheap for a 24 yo safety. It's far from $25Ms that we paid 34+ yo Rivers.

[shasta519]

45 minutes ago, ColtJax said:

According to Ballard we received several trade offers during the draft. Something tells me it was for that we got for Wilson, a late round pick. Maybe this lights a fire under him, but if it does do we really trust a guy that lights it up only during a contract year??

 

They won't trust it...but I don't think it will come to that...because they aren't re-signing him. Ballard is far too pragmatic to waive his negotiating edge if he thinks there is even a chance he extends Hooker...just on the idea it might light a fire under him.

[DougDew]

55 minutes ago, stitches said:

I agree it's kind of ironic that they will hold hopes of replacing Hooker because of his health concerns with another player coming off an ACL injury. Devils advocate here - no two injuries are the same. Maybe the Blackmon injury seem much more mild(he said it was only ACL tear and had no other ligaments affected). Also Hooker has had another serious knee injury after the ACL. It's possible they worry more about his injuries than they do about Blackmon's? 

I know you're sticking to your guns that Hooker is a good/great player "if it wasn't for this or for that"  but maybe Ballard thinks differently and will replace him because he simply thinks Hooker's not very valuable.

[stitches]

4 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I know you're sticking to your guns that Hooker is a good/great player "if it wasn't for this or for that"  but maybe Ballard thinks differently and will replace him because he simply thinks Hooker's not very valuable.

You can remove the qualifications. I think Hooker is a good player without any qualifications, I think he could be great if he just stays healthy. It's obvious Ballard thinks differently for one reason or another(I am not in his head so I don't know what his reasoning is... maybe it's a combination of things). Which is alright. I don't have to agree with Ballard on everything... and he doesn't know I even exist so it makes no difference for him either  

[CoachLite]

6 hours ago, ukcolt12 said:

Hurt feelings?! I just don't like the decision that's all. It's not gonna ruin my week or anything lol. 

 

I was referring to hurt feelings by Hooker.

[DougDew]

20 minutes ago, stitches said:

You can remove the qualifications. I think Hooker is a good player without any qualifications, I think he could be great if he just stays healthy. It's obvious Ballard thinks differently for one reason or another(I am not in his head so I don't know what his reasoning is... maybe it's a combination of things). Which is alright. I don't have to agree with Ballard on everything... and he doesn't know I even exist so it makes no difference for him either  

Who's to say what happens next season.  Its not like he was cut or is necessarily on the short list for it. 

 

I wonder what the attitude is with other players who didn't get their 5th year option.  Do they realize its a business and have they have made an honest assessment of their own talent, or I wonder if they're bitter thinking they deserve it.  That's another topic.

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16 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Who's to say what happens next season.  Its not like he was cut or is necessarily on the short list for it. 

 

I wonder what the attitude is with other players who didn't get their 5th year option.  Do they realize its a business and have they have made an honest assessment of their own talent, or I wonder if they're bitter thinking they deserve it.  That's another topic.

Different players proabbly have different approach to it, but I bet a lot of them feel feel slighted(they don't get to that level by not believing in their own ability and skill). Especially the ones that are on margin(they've played good enough to at least have a case - I think Hooker is way past that point). I saw Hooker unfollowed the Colts on his instagram. I cannot imagine he likes it. 

[NewColtsFan]

3 hours ago, stitches said:

Agree to disagree. You don't sacrifice team control and the relationship with the player to just "light a fire" under him. What happens when you light a fire under him and he plays well and doesn't want to re-sign with you and wants out? He's already unfollowed the Colts on his IG account. Does that look like a relationship you want to have with a starter on your roster? Does it look like he will be keen to re-sign with you if he actually plays well? Or would he just think - you didn't believe in me and now look at me, I will be lighting you up for the next half a decade with the Texans or Titans or whoever signs him... You get a 5th round compensatory pick... for lighting a fire under a player who will be great for another team. This makes no sense to me. 

He’s not going to get a good contract from another team if he doesn’t play well for us.

 

Its just that simple.   

Ask yourself this question:   17 teams did NOT pick up the 5th year option.

Why were the Colts LAST to announce that?    Some teams announced before the draft.   Some teams announced last week, after the draft.   Why did we wait?    And wait? 
And wait to the end?

 

I think there’s more to this story than we don’t think he’s good and we can’t wait to get rid of him.   This story does not add up to me.

[NewColtsFan]

2 hours ago, Chloe6124 said:

Hooker and Desir both looked so bad the second half of the season last year. Hooker looked  like he didn’t even care.

They were both playing hurt.   Neither was close to 100 percent. 

[Myles]

1 minute ago, NewColtsFan said:

He’s not going to get a good contract from another team if he doesn’t play well for us.

 

Its just that simple.   
 

While true, the upgraded D-line for the Colts could mean he has the best season of his career.  

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6 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

He’s not going to get a good contract from another team if he doesn’t play well for us.

 

Its just that simple.   

 

That's the point. He will play well and then leave to play well for another team for the next half a decade. I'm worried about losing a great player for close to nothing. 

[shasta519]

17 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

He’s not going to get a good contract from another team if he doesn’t play well for us.

 

Its just that simple.   

Ask yourself this question:   17 teams did NOT pick up the 5th year option.

Why were the Colts LAST to announce that?    Some teams announced before the draft.   Some teams announced last week, after the draft.   Why did we wait?    And wait? 
And wait to the end?

 

I think there’s more to this story than we don’t think he’s good and we can’t wait to get rid of him.   This story does not add up to me.

 

I think it's pretty likely the draft (and potential trade offers) played a big role in this. They wanted to see if they could get a good S in the draft...while also leaving the option open for any team that wanted to trade for him...because it hold significant value. And they waited until the deadline to see if a team would bite (no reason to not wait)...but apparently no one did.

[shasta519]

17 minutes ago, stitches said:

 

That's the point. He will play well and then leave to play well for another team for the next half a decade. I'm worried about losing a great player for close to nothing. 

 

It won't be nothing...a good S contract could yield a 4th round comp pick...a huge S contract would yield a 3rd round comp pick.

 

That said...playing the future comp pick game is risky...and in a scenario where he plays well enough to get a big contract...he would have more value with the cheap year of control.

[stitches]

5 minutes ago, shastamasta said:

 

It won't be nothing...a good S contract could yield a 4th round comp pick...a huge S contract would yield a 3rd round comp pick.

 

That said...playing the future comp pick game is risky...and in a scenario where he plays well enough to get a big contract...he would have more value with the cheap year of control.

If he gets 8M we will get around 5th. He needs to get 10-11M for us to get a 4th and about 13-15M to get a 3d. With the scheme we are playing even if he plays very well, he probably won't go to the elite level payday... 

 

On the second part - yes - that's the other part of my point - if he plays well you could have had him for less than 7M. 

[DougDew]

9 minutes ago, shastamasta said:

 

I think it's pretty likely the draft (and potential trade offers) played a big role in this. They wanted to see if they could get a good S in the draft...while also leaving the option open for any team that wanted to trade for him...because it hold significant value. And they waited until the deadline to see if a team would bite (no reason to not wait)...but apparently no one did.

Polian used to say, "don't make a decision until you have to"

[shasta519]

2 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Polian used to say, "don't make a decision until you have to"

 

I think that's clearly how they played it. No guarantee they get Blackmon or any other S they like...and they wanted to wait as long as they could to see if a team would bite.

 

And of course Ballard had him on the trade block. I think Ballard's comments about waiting until after the draft to decide were a clear message to teams that he was on the block for the right draft pick/s.

[DougDew]

10 minutes ago, shastamasta said:

 

I think that's clearly how they played it. No guarantee they get Blackmon or any other S they like...and they wanted to wait as long as they could to see if a team would bite.

 

And of course Ballard had him on the trade block. I think Ballard's comments about waiting until after the draft to decide were a clear message to teams that he was on the block for the right draft pick/s.

That's why I think that Ballard may not value the FS position in this defense as much as he did in Pagano's 34.  So if Hooker shows that he can play well in Cover 1, some team might sign him to a nice contract.  That contract might be more than what he's willing to pay Hooker to play in this defense.  And, that contract might fetch a higher comp pick than what was offered as trade during the draft.

 

I do think that Hooker will probably be gone after next season.  Whether its because another team values him highly or because Ballard just doesn't see him as being a great player is unknown.  I think Ballard feels that he can get better and more versatile FS play for what this defense needs than what Hooker can offer, and that's probably ultimately what's driving this.

[NewColtsFan]

2 hours ago, shastamasta said:

 

Here's the disconnect for me...if the Colts don't think Hooker is the same player as he was before the ACL tear...or fear that he will continue to get hurt...and that has led to them not being willing to pick up his option...then why on earth did they just double down and draft a S that also just tore his ACL in December? Especially if Blackmon is meant to replace Hooker.

If you remove all the players who’ve had knee surgery, you’ve just shrunk the pool of available players.

 

Besides, their issue, whatever it may be, might not be about the knee surgery.   Maybe it’s about the longer string of injuries, not one specifically. 
 

Maybe the medical reports on Blackmon’s knee is better than expected?    All I’m saying is there are all sorts of possible answers.   And it might not be just one. 

[Dogg63]

The only sense I can make of CB declining the 5th year option stems from a combination of factors:

1.       Hooker’s not playing a role that suits his greatest physical traits.

   1a.       But, Hooker’s an athletic freak who can be pretty darned good in spite of not playing the ideal role.

2.       CB doesn’t have anyone on the roster to fill Hooker’s shoes at this time.

   2a.       But, Hooker’s still here, on a cheap rookie contract, and he’s good enough at that price.

3.       Hooker’s been hurt every season so far. CB seems to be stepping back from perennially injured players.

   3a.       Blackmon’s only been hurt the once (ACL) that I am aware of, so not a lingering history of injuries. He’s rangy and a good tackler.

4.       CB has filled a lot of holes and shored up weak areas this offseason. Perhaps he doesn’t see a perfect replacement scenario for FS so he’s biding his time until something piques his interest.

   4a.       Perhaps Hooker develops into that player CB wants to keep. Seems unlikely.

   4b.       Perhaps Hooker signs elsewhere after 2020 and CB has to make a move at FS.

          i.     Perhaps Blackmon is healed and good enough to ascend to FS by then.

          ii.    If not, CB will have had another season to evaluate his next move at FS by then.

 

So, CB gets one more cheap year to see if Hooker can fit the team's FS needs and stay healthy. CB doesn't have a good fallback option for FS at this time anyway. After the 2020 season, CB has had a lot more time to work something out to improve our FS situation, be that Hooker, Blackmon, or someone else.

 

Odds are against Hooker suddenly becoming the perfect FS for this defensive scheme, and odds would point against him staying healthy all season. For both of those reasons, I can understand CB feeling pretty confident we'll be heading in another direction after 2020 and therefore declining the 5th year option.

 

[ukcolt12]

4 hours ago, CoachLite said:

I was referring to hurt feelings by Hooker.

Apologies misinterpreted the message, long day! 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Looks like Hooker might have some maturity issues. 

 

 

[Colts_Fan12]

6 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

Looks like Hooker might have some maturity issues. 

 

 

the guy was basically just told we don't value him enough to pay his cheap as hell 5th year and we also have played him in a scheme that doesn't fit him at all so he can't show off his skills. dude has every right to be * off i hope he goes off this year and finds a team that will actually use him correctly and I hope he becomes an elite S and hopefully his new fanbase will appreciate him more than he ever was here 

[BornHoosier]

7 hours ago, shastamasta said:

 

Here's the disconnect for me...if the Colts don't think Hooker is the same player as he was before the ACL tear...or fear that he will continue to get hurt...and that has led to them not being willing to pick up his option...then why on earth did they just double down and draft a S that also just tore his ACL in December? Especially if Blackmon is meant to replace Hooker.

Because Blackmon is a football player and enjoys getting physical unlike Malik "Deion" Hooker who looks disinterested in the game.  Hooker was a project that the staff took a gamble on but they missed on his desire for the game and he reminds me of a player that wants a few paychecks and get O U T of the game.  I read somewhere in this thread that he isn't very good at what he is supposed to be good at and that is SPOT ON.  That glove tackle on Henry at the goal line showed he is the biggest wimp this team has seen at the position.  I will also note that when the team needs him most (Big games), he is not available and the 2018 playoff game vs the Chiefs is an example!  So far all 3 of our 2nd rd picks from "THE" Ohio State Univ are in serious jeopardy of "THE" label BUST!  Im hoping at least on of "THE" players actually turn out to be worth a...

[BornHoosier]

22 minutes ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

the guy was basically just told we don't value him enough to pay his cheap as hell 5th year and we also have played him in a scheme that doesn't fit him at all so he can't show off his skills. dude has every right to be * off i hope he goes off this year and finds a team that will actually use him correctly and I hope he becomes an elite S and hopefully his new fanbase will appreciate him more than he ever was here 

We can all wish in one hand and *%$@ in the other but at the end of the day 3 yrs of poop is telling which hand your gonna get!

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

36 minutes ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

the guy was basically just told we don't value him enough to pay his cheap as hell 5th year and we also have played him in a scheme that doesn't fit him at all so he can't show off his skills. dude has every right to be * off i hope he goes off this year and finds a team that will actually use him correctly and I hope he becomes an elite S and hopefully his new fanbase will appreciate him more than he ever was here 

You know what though. He should grow up and and go out there and play hard. He will be happy because he will get paid a year earlier.  When Margus Hunt got cut he went on Instagram and took responsibility and posted how it was a performance issue. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

23 minutes ago, BornHoosier said:

Because Blackmon is a football player and enjoys getting physical unlike Malik "Deion" Hooker who looks disinterested in the game.  Hooker was a project that the staff took a gamble on but they missed on his desire for the game and he reminds me of a player that wants a few paychecks and get O U T of the game.  I read somewhere in this thread that he isn't very good at what he is supposed to be good at and that is SPOT ON.  That glove tackle on Henry at the goal line showed he is the biggest wimp this team has seen at the position.  I will also note that when the team needs him most (Big games), he is not available and the 2018 playoff game vs the Chiefs is an example!  So far all 3 of our 2nd rd picks from "THE" Ohio State Univ are in serious jeopardy of "THE" label BUST!  Im hoping at least on of "THE" players actually turn out to be worth a...

Let’s also not forget the KC game that he missed this year. Who got a strip fumble, who came up and got the tackle to force them into fourth down. That was Odum. If hooker had been in that game those two plays don’t happen. Odum was very physical that game. Hookers uniform was basically still clean after that last jags game. Let’s not forget the mis communication in the second Texans game. This should be no surprise to anyone.

[Colts_Fan12]

9 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

You know what though. He should grow up and and go out there and play hard. He will be happy because he will get paid a year earlier.  When Margus Hunt got cut he went on Instagram and took responsibility and posted how it was a performance issue. 

nothing he has said means he isn't gonna go out and play hard you are making stuff up just because. he has every right to be frustrated 

[BornHoosier]

5 minutes ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

nothing he has said means he isn't gonna go out and play hard you are making stuff up just because. he has every right to be frustrated 

Actions speak louder than words and he is a player that thinks he is better than what he actually is.  Hooker will be out of the league or forgotten soon and it doesn't take a genius to figure this out, thank you very much Ballard!