Malik Hookers 5th year option Declined

[VaAllDay757]

21 hours ago, rockywoj said:

If he’s not motivated for this season, a contract year ... and not just any contract year, but THE most lucrative contract year he is likely to ever have in his career, then Hooker has BIG time motivation issues.

 

That being said, I don’t accept what you say about him not being motivated. 

That's fine but there's plenty of guys who underperformed whether it was contract year or not

[Colts_Fan12]

8 minutes ago, BornHoosier said:

Actions speak louder than words and he is a player that thinks he is better than what he actually is.  Hooker will be out of the league or forgotten soon and it doesn't take a genius to figure this out, thank you very much Ballard!

damn you really like to post a lot of stupid stuff that just isn't true keep it up

[Myles]

i still think that with the addition of a pass rush, he may have a very good season.   

[BornHoosier]

4 minutes ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

damn you really like to post a lot of stupid stuff that just isn't true keep it up

Only stupid when proven to be false but I like my chances.  I'm intrigued to hear why you strongly disagree with my thoughts?  Please share with the class.

[Colts_Fan12]

4 minutes ago, BornHoosier said:

Only stupid when proven to be false but I like my chances.  I'm intrigued to hear why you strongly disagree with my thoughts?  Please share with the class.

his play has literally NEVER looked like he will be out of the league so yeah what you said was indeed stupid lol

[BornHoosier]

3 minutes ago, Myles said:

i still think that with the addition of a pass rush, he may have a very good season.   

Are you meaning that if the opposing qb is forced to throw off his back foot or forced to throw the ball up for grabs that Hooker may have a good season?  I would hope an undrafted player could have a good season under those circumstances but I guess some have lowered the bar so much that it doesn't matter how he succeeds as long as he succeeds.  His professional status is quickly going from an Ed Reed comparison to an Apollo Creed destination!

[GRUMPY OLD MAN]

8 hours ago, Rackeen305 said:

Colts fans:

Team xyz just released their starting safety and long snapper. They could be great fits.

 

So, Let's release Hooker. He isn't worth $6.7M...? (Every teams reject gets more praise/love or appreciation than Hooker since we drafted him. Ijbh) 

 

We are talking about an "option" of $6.7M for an NFL player. Not a cook, not an office manager, nor fire fighter or electrician.

 

$6.7M is cheap for a 24 yo safety. It's far from $25Ms that we paid 34+ yo Rivers.

The money is not the issue, he is out of position on deep balls too many times

[Dark Superman]

This was shocking to me. I'm a fan of Hooker and really hoped the Colts picked up his 5th year option. I guess this will unfortunately be his final year as a Colt. 

[BornHoosier]

23 minutes ago, DEFENSE said:

The money is not the issue, he is out of position on deep balls too many times

DEFENSE, are you saying that for a players only strength being the deep ball but far too many times is seen on Sundays getting burnt for a td is simply out of position??  Could it be that Chris Ballard sees the same player constantly out of position that we both have seen but some here dont?  Could it be that his only yr playing the position in college was too big of a gamble to take with the 2nd rd pick and we should have seen this coming from the beginning?  Could it be the lack of instincts it takes to succeed at this level be the end of his career at this level?  Could it be his lack of interest in tackling validate everything I just said?  Just checking to see if I'm really STUPID or have that 6th sense of seeing dead people that some might not see!

[DougDew]

14 minutes ago, BornHoosier said:

DEFENSE, are you saying that for a players only strength being the deep ball but far too many times is seen on Sundays getting burnt for a td is simply out of position??  Could it be that Chris Ballard sees the same player constantly out of position that we both have seen but some here dont?  Could it be that his only yr playing the position in college was too big of a gamble to take with the 2nd rd pick and we should have seen this coming from the beginning?  Could it be the lack of instincts it takes to succeed at this level be the end of his career at this level?  Could it be his lack of interest in tackling validate everything I just said?  Just checking to see if I'm really STUPID or have that 6th sense of seeing dead people that some might not see!

Hooker was drafted in the first, 15th overall.  Quincy Wilson was drafted in the second.

[shasta519]

12 minutes ago, BornHoosier said:

DEFENSE, are you saying that for a players only strength being the deep ball but far too many times is seen on Sundays getting burnt for a td is simply out of position??  Could it be that Chris Ballard sees the same player constantly out of position that we both have seen but some here dont?  Could it be that his only yr playing the position in college was too big of a gamble to take with the 2nd rd pick and we should have seen this coming from the beginning?  Could it be the lack of instincts it takes to succeed at this level be the end of his career at this level?  Could it be his lack of interest in tackling validate everything I just said?  Just checking to see if I'm really STUPID or have that 6th sense of seeing dead people that some might not see!

He was pick #15 in the draft actually. It appears they got it wrong unfortunately.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Injuries to me aren’t even the problem. If you play only 13 games and you are a stud those 13 games you can kind of except the 3 missed games. But when your missing games and just average that is the end.

[BornHoosier]

38 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Hooker was drafted in the first, 15th overall.  Quincy Wilson was drafted in the second.

I guess that goes to show you my posts are stupid that I don't even remember when these BUSTS were actually drafted!  Who was avail at 15 that we didn't believe would stick, that would even make the Hooker believers turn so sick??

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Good discussion here how hooker doesn’t fit this scheme.

 

 

[Rackeen305]

3 hours ago, DEFENSE said:

The money is not the issue, he is out of position on deep balls too many times

7 INTs from the FS position in 3 years while yet missing (+/-) 1/4  of team games says he's out of position on deep balls. yep. Some folks just want to talk without any facts. 

 

I got a better one for you. Hooker playing all over the field (his asked responsibility for his first 3 years) was the reason for him getting hurt by friendly fire. Thanks Matthias Farley.

[crazycolt1]

39 minutes ago, Rackeen305 said:

7 INTs from the FS position in 3 years while yet missing (+/-) 1/4  of team games says he's out of position on deep balls. yep. Some folks just want to talk without any facts. 

 

I got a better one for you. Hooker playing all over the field (his asked responsibility for his first 3 years) was the reason for him getting hurt by friendly fire. Thanks Matthias Farley.

I got a better one for you too.

Ballard don't think he is worth picking up his 5th year option. He has input from the whole coaching crew so I kinda trust him over a fans point of view. 

Hooker will have the opportunity to show if he can earn another contract so it's not like he is the cold. 

 

[Rackeen305]

1 hour ago, Rackeen305 said:

7 INTs from the FS position in 3 years while yet missing (+/-) 1/4  of team games says he's out of position on deep balls. yep. Some folks just want to talk without any facts. 

 

I got a better one for you. Hooker playing all over the field (his asked responsibility for his first 3 years) was the reason for him getting hurt by friendly fire. Thanks Matthias Farley.

 

25 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

I got a better one for you too.

Ballard don't think he is worth picking up his 5th year option. He has input from the whole coaching crew so I kinda trust him over a fans point of view. 

Hooker will have the opportunity to show if he can earn another contract so it's not like he is the cold. 

 

I provided names and number which can be crossed referenced. Why get bent over a fan pointing this info out? You trusting what I said doesn't change the numbers that Hooker has put up.

 

As I mentioned, Some folks just want to talk without any facts. 

[crazycolt1]

1 minute ago, Rackeen305 said:

 

I provided names and number which can be crossed referenced. Why get bent over a fan pointing this info out? You trusting what I said doesn't change the numbers that Hooker has put up.

 

As I mentioned, Some folks just want to talk without any facts. 

The only fact that matters at this point is Ballard is not picking up his 5th year option.

I am not bent at all so why even go there? 

You are the one who seems bent because you are the one who is willing to be argumentative over it. 

[GoColts8818]

1 hour ago, Rackeen305 said:

7 INTs from the FS position in 3 years while yet missing (+/-) 1/4  of team games says he's out of position on deep balls. yep. Some folks just want to talk without any facts. 

 

I got a better one for you. Hooker playing all over the field (his asked responsibility for his first 3 years) was the reason for him getting hurt by friendly fire. Thanks Matthias Farley.

Well three of the picks came in his first six games.  Since then he’s had four the last two years in the new defense.  That’s much less impressive.  Also more than once last year I saw him getting beat deep because he was out of position or took a bad angle so yes he’s been out of position on deep balls at least enough to get noticed for it.  
 

That all aside I think the bigger factor here is that he’s missed 1/4 of the games in his career and had injury concerns coming out of college.  I think that’s the biggest reason the Colts aren’t picking up his option.  They can’t depend on him to stay healthy.  
 

What ever the cause of his injuries all they care about is that he’s shown over three years an inability to stay healthy.  We saw this with Bob Sanders.  He was great when he was out, being a major part of a Super Bowl run but at some point if you are hurt too much you just aren’t worth it.  Now granted Hooker hasn’t been as hurt as Sanders but the injuries are adding up.  
 

I also think that we can not like this move as much as we want but it’s happening.  Time will tell if it’s the right one or not.  All we can do is wait and see what happens.

[ukcolt12]

I actually thought his tackling was much improved last season. 

Overall the secondary were terrible for 90% of the season of which he is part accountable along with his team mates, plus I think the coaches. 

His coverage was definitely off. Is that not coachable though? 

Maybe he lacks a bit of juice out on the turf and appears to be very passive on some plays. Who knows. 

I would have picked up the option, maintain that it will come back to haunt us but hope I proven wrong! 

 

[Nadine]

Reminder: Don't call each other stupid.  Just like in real life, it's not good for civil discussions

[2006Coltsbestever]

48 minutes ago, Nadine said:

Reminder: Don't call each other stupid.  Just like in real life, it's not good for civil discussions

[DougDew]

9 hours ago, BornHoosier said:

I guess that goes to show you my posts are stupid that I don't even remember when these BUSTS were actually drafted!  Who was avail at 15 that we didn't believe would stick, that would even make the Hooker believers turn so sick??

Well, its three years ago.  But at the time, Vontae was getting old, but during his prime, he could take away the other teams best WR.  So the move, IMO, was to get a shut down corner to play opposite VD and take over for when he retired.  Marlon Humphrey, CB Alabama, was on the board and was taken the next pick after Hooker by the highly competent Ravens draft room.  I think he's now a probowler.  Of course, the Ravens may have then taken Hooker and he might have become the guy everybody thought he would be.

 

It was three years ago.  You can use hindsight to judge it now.  But, at the time, comparing Humphrey's resume, traits, and our needs with Hooker's and our needs, Humphrey was the obvious choice in my mind at the time.  It just happened to work out like I thought, but other things in drafts don't, so there's that.

[DougDew]

5 hours ago, Rackeen305 said:

 

I provided names and number which can be crossed referenced. Why get bent over a fan pointing this info out? You trusting what I said doesn't change the numbers that Hooker has put up.

 

As I mentioned, Some folks just want to talk without any facts. 

Because sometimes names and numbers are just shallow talking points.  As has been mentioned, the fact is that many of those picks were simply overthrown balls by the QB.  I'm not going to look up the numbers that went into your numbers, but I watched enough games to know that the statement has merit.

[SteelCityColt]

Much talk about facts.. so let's throw some out:

 

 

You may need to click to get this full size, but Hooker compared to league average of safeties with 25+ targets and some cherry picked comparative players. 

 

 

[Dogg63]

2 hours ago, SteelCityColt said:

Much talk about facts.. so let's throw some out:

 

 

You may need to click to get this full size, but Hooker compared to league average of safeties with 25+ targets and some cherry picked comparative players. 

 

 

Wow, the only safety with a higher completion % than Hooker on that list is Willis. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

On the locked on colts podcast they mentioned the scheme the colts play is to keep everything in front of you and the safeties are supposed to come up for mop up duty. It makes sense to why hooker doesn’t fit this scheme.

[SteelCityColt]

35 minutes ago, Dogg63 said:

Wow, the only safety with a higher completion % than Hooker on that list is Willis. 

 

It is a selective list of who I feel are the better safeties in the league to be fair, added Willis for direct comparison. But yeah Hooker doesn't shine statistically certainly. 

 

Still not sure not taking the 5th year option was a good idea though.

[Rackeen305]

 

10 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

I got a better one for you too.

Ballard don't think he is worth picking up his 5th year option. He has input from the whole coaching crew so I kinda trust him over a fans point of view. 

Hooker will have the opportunity to show if he can earn another contract so it's not like he is the cold. 

 

10 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

The only fact that matters at this point is Ballard is not picking up his 5th year option.

I am not bent at all so why even go there? 

You are the one who seems bent because you are the one who is willing to be argumentative over it. 

Ok this will do it. Hooker's not worth $6.7M cool, let's agree to disagree. The Colts do not believe Hooker is worth this. My question is simple.

 

What is the Expectation for Philip and his $25 Ms, and what would warrant his contract? At least pass the first round no?

 

The floor is yours!!!!!

 

BTW, you are the one mentioning "I kinda trust him over a fans point of view." Who's being argumentive? As the only thing I speak are in numbers and names. No need to bring the coaching, ownership, managing over me. Right? Let's discuss football and if you can't, don't waste your time.

[SteelCityColt]

5 minutes ago, Rackeen305 said:

 

Ok this will do it. Hooker's not worth $6.7M cool, let's agree to disagree. The Colts do not believe Hooker is worth this. My question is simple.

 

What is the Expectation for Philip and his $25 Ms, and what would warrant his contract? At least pass the first round no?

This is almost text book "whataboutism".

 

5 minutes ago, Rackeen305 said:

 

The floor is yours!!!!!

 

BTW, you are the one mentioning "I kinda trust him over a fans point of view." Who's being argumentive? As the only thing I speak are in numbers and names. No need to bring the coaching, ownership, managing over me. Right? Let's discuss football and if you can't, don't waste your time.

 

You really need to stop coming out with this schtick when engaging with other posters. You offered up one cherry picked stat, a volume one at that, which can often be misleading. That doesn't mean you then rail on other posters for "not talking football" or not bringing "facts".

 

Instead of being combative, be constructive. Cool, he's made picks, why not break down a few showing how it was down to his good play, vs say a poor throw. I mean the one against the Chargers would almost seem perfect... 

[shasta519]

3 hours ago, SteelCityColt said:

Much talk about facts.. so let's throw some out:

 

 

You may need to click to get this full size, but Hooker compared to league average of safeties with 25+ targets and some cherry picked comparative players. 

 

 

 

Thank you for posting this...and yuck! 

 

No wonder they want to make a change at S. Part of the reason for the high catch percentage for both Colts Ss is the archaic scheme...which has holes that allow for those completions.

 

But still...those passer ratings and completion percentages for Willis/Hooker are just awful.

 

They try to mitigate Willis' coverage limitations by playing him close to the LOS...which keeps the DADOT so low. But unfortunately he's allowing significantly more RAC yards than air yards...which turns into 3+ extra yards per catch vs the average target distance. 

 

Everyone on that list except Honey Badger allows far less RAC...but Honey Badger is a very good player. I think we need to pump the brakes on the "Willis is a stud" talk. But he's also still developing...so hopefully his coverage skills take a big leap forward.

 

At least Hooker has been able to reduce the RAC...but everything else is just bad.

 

Personally, I especially wanted to draft a S early last year. I think that group was stacked...with Adderley, Thornhill and Rapp all available for all of the Colts' 2nd round picks. 

 

And they had a shot this year to get any top S they wanted as well this year...if they knew they were moving on from Hooker.

 

But we will just have to see what Blackmon and Willis can do together. I still would love to see what Tell can do back there.

 

 

[PrincetonTiger]

6 hours ago, Nadine said:

Reminder: Don't call each other stupid.  Just like in real life, it's not good for civil discussions

[SteelCityColt]

15 minutes ago, shastamasta said:

 

Thank you for posting this...and yuck! 

 

No wonder they want to make a change at S. Part of the reason for the high catch percentage for both Colts Ss is the archaic scheme...which has holes that allow for those completions.

 

But still...those passer ratings and completion percentages for Willis/Hooker are just awful.

 

They try to mitigate Willis' coverage limitations by playing him close to the LOS...which keeps the DADOT so low. But unfortunately he's allowing significantly more RAC yards than air yards...which turns into 3+ extra yards per catch vs the average target distance. 

 

Everyone on that list except Honey Badger allows far less RAC...but Honey Badger is a very good player. I think we need to pump the brakes on the "Willis is a stud" talk. But he's also still developing...so hopefully his coverage skills take a big leap forward.

 

At least Hooker has been able to reduce the RAC...but everything else is just bad.

 

Personally, I especially wanted to draft a S early last year. I think that group was stacked...with Adderley, Thornhill and Rapp all available for all of the Colts' 2nd round picks. 

 

And they had a shot this year to get any top S they wanted as well this year...if they knew they were moving on from Hooker.

 

But we will just have to see what Blackmon and Willis can do together. I still would love to see what Tell can do back there.

 

 

 

I was trying to remove CBs from the mix to make the average comparison a bit more realistic but some players on PFR have odd or missing postions. Tell being one of them:

 

http://pfref.com/pi/share/ArhT6

 

That't his stats.

 

The full table from which the original was taken:

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2019/defense_advanced.htm

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

I saw a tweet this morning that next years draft is stacked at safety and corner. Might have some really good options next year.

[stitches]

16 hours ago, BornHoosier said:

Only stupid when proven to be false but I like my chances.  I'm intrigued to hear why you strongly disagree with my thoughts?  Please share with the class.

Over/under on how many more years Hooker will be in the league? 

[TomDiggs]

I see this decision as being a lot simpler than most of our fans are reading into:

 

1) Hooker was drafted for his ability to create turnovers. He has not done that well enough or consistently. Not worth rewarding him in any way when he hasn't.

 

2) Hooker has missed a good amount of games. Rewarding a guy that misses over 1/4 of your games is not a practice you want to make a habit of. Especially when as another poster mentioned, the locker room is taking note of who gets paid and what they've done.

 

3) It has been mentioned, but that $6.7M is guaranteed for injury only.  With his injury history the question probably became "is it a bigger risk to pay him $7M next year when he might be injured and we are on the hook for that or is it a bigger risk that he actually plays well and we have to pay an extra $4M above (~$11M) that to tag him if he proves worth it?'

 

 

I will say, we have what, $58.2M invested in QBs right now? Next year that is going to go waaaaaay down. Even with all the upcoming extensions for guys we deem worthy and even with needing to lock in a QB, we will have money to pay Hooker if he is worth it. I am all for making him prove he is worth it and having to dish out extra if he proves it. At least if he doesn't prove it (which he so far has not) we will not be on the hook for $7M for him, especially if he does end up hurt and that would be guaranteed.

 

I will also say that Hooker missed three games last year against the Raiders, Chiefs and Texans. We went 2-1 and averaged 63% completion percentage and about 273 yards per game with a 4-2 TD to Int ratio in his absence. That is not bad at all considering the QBs and offenses faced.

 

And in trying to ignore his lost rookie year, he has missed 5 games the last two years and we are 4-1 in games he missed.

 

So I do not see the sky as falling if he walks. May be better to invest that money elsewhere regardless, unless he ends up creating 5+ turnovers this year and looks like a true difference-maker.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

 

[Rackeen305]

52 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

This is almost text book "whataboutism".

 

 

You really need to stop coming out with this schtick when engaging with other posters. You offered up one cherry picked stat, a volume one at that, which can often be misleading. That doesn't mean you then rail on other posters for "not talking football" or not bringing "facts".

 

Instead of being combative, be constructive. Cool, he's made picks, why not break down a few showing how it was down to his good play, vs say a poor throw. I mean the one against the Chargers would almost seem perfect... 

Thanks for bringing up the Chargers INT by Hooker. The poster pointed out something about believing Colts org over a fan. I never said anything towards another fan but rather reaffirm the need to speak football players which I've done (Hooker @$6.7 Ms vs Philip @25 Ms) and what should come or warrant the signing of Philip (at least pass the 1st round in the playoffs).

 

What should be the measuring stick for Philip since some believe Hooker hasn't lived up to $ 6.7Ms as a 24 yo FS in a league where the salary cap increases yearly?

 

@SteelCityColt or @crazycolt1.

 

Since you won't answer that. Then (watch this) what about AV? What warrants his return this year? This will tell me alot about your rational. 

 

I'll even give you the only acceptable answer. If you are saying not signing Hooker pass this year is based on health, then np. 

[Four2itus]

11 minutes ago, TomDiggs said:

I will say, we have what, $58.2M invested in QBs right now? Next year that is going to go waaaaaay down. Even with all the upcoming extensions for guys we deem worthy and even with needing to lock in a QB, we will have money to pay Hooker if he is worth it. I am all for making him prove he is worth it and having to dish out extra if he proves it. At least if he doesn't prove it (which he so far has not) we will not be on the hook for $7M for him, especially if he does end up hurt and that would be guaranteed.

 

I will also say that Hooker missed three games last year against the Raiders, Chiefs and Texans. We went 2-1 and averaged 63% completion percentage and about 273 yards per game with a 4-2 TD to Int ratio in his absence. That is not bad at all considering the QBs and offenses faced.

 

And in trying to ignore his lost rookie year, he has missed 5 games the last two years and we are 4-1 in games he missed.

 

So I do not see the sky as falling if he walks. May be better to invest that money elsewhere regardless, unless he ends up creating 5+ turnovers this year and looks like a true difference-maker.

 

Just my 2 cent

Sensible, unemotional, and based in logic. Thank you. 

[Four2itus]

13 minutes ago, Rackeen305 said:

What should be the measuring stick for Philip since some believe Hooker hasn't lived up to $ 6.7Ms as a 24 yo FS in a league where the salary cap increases yearly?

Well, first....PR has not played a down for the Colts yet. In addition, fans measuring stick has nothing to do with reality. It is the entire front office's measuring stick that matters. 

[shasta519]

23 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

I was trying to remove CBs from the mix to make the average comparison a bit more realistic but some players on PFR have odd or missing postions. Tell being one of them:

 

http://pfref.com/pi/share/ArhT6

 

That't his stats.

 

The full table from which the original was taken:

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2019/defense_advanced.htm

 

Hard to compare S to a boundary CB...however...looking at those stats...it confirms my suspicions that Tell was actually pretty damn good last year. Very SSS (only really played 5 games when Desir was out)...but I think there might even be a statistical argument that he was second-best DB on the team last year.

 

For some reason...when Desir came back...Tell was glued to the bench. Since they ultimately released Desir...I would have liked to see them get Tell on the field more...especially when Kenny went down for the year.

 

If he can handle CB...I think he could excel at S (as he did at USC). The only concern might be tackling (he's not a big dude)...however...0 missed tackles in 26 attempts is nothing to sneeze at. He's going to have trouble getting on the field with Rocky Rhodes and Kenny healthy...so I hope gets a crack at S.