Don Shula Passes Away at 90

[crazycolt1]

19 minutes ago, FortheWin said:

Ok. But the NFL goes back 100 years. Teams have been getting caught for cheating since the beginning and it will continue as long as pro sports are played. 

If and when Kraft has to pay for the prostitution issue the Patriots will pass the total amount of fines paid by any team in history. 

Why this issue hasn't been addressed yet is beyond me. 

Kraft's deep pockets must be at work. 

[Imgrandojji]

1 hour ago, FortheWin said:

 

In general, I think the cheating thing in all pro sports is waaay overblown due to our culture these days. We all know teams and players have cheated/bent rules since the beginning of time. There is no bastion of integrity anywhere. For Shula to say he did things the right way is laughable. The Dolphins tampered with the Colts to hire him in the first place which cost them a first round pick. He also had players on steroids and was named in the lawsuit as one of the coaches forcing his players to take pain killers so they would play. To me, none of it really matters. He is still a Hof coach. 

It comes down to what does it actually take to win in the NFL.  A certain ruthlessness and willingness to push for every advantage is a required part of the alchemy of winning.  Eventually you're going to do something that you think is legal and someone else disagrees, or that you think is against a rule that is never enforced and someone randomly enforces it.  This is every NFL team that has won for an extended period of time.

 

Bottom line, if you're not prepared to do everything you think you can get away with to win, you'll win less than you possibly could, if you're a winner that's unacceptable to you, and thus you have Belichick skirting the edges of the rules and getting burnt by it occasionally.

 

exacerbating this is the fact that 31 teams are anxious for anything to bring down the Dynasty and will engage in gamesmanship to do so, and that the league itself is controlled by the owners of the teams, means that when a dominant team steps over the line, especially one that's been dominant for a very, very long time, the hammer tends to come down hard.

 

No, the Patriots are no worse cheaters than anyone else.  However, when the Board of Governors makes reducing the power of the Patriots franchise a major action item, the Commissioner will follow suit given any excuse at all.

 

BTW it was a fact that the Colts footballs were also deflated.  WE.  DO.  NOT.  HAVE.  A.  LEG.  TO.  STAND.  ON.  Either the footballs were deflated, in which case we were cheating too, or the gagues were wrong, and thus the measurement of Patriots balls is also in doubt.  there is no third option. 

 

Falling back on the official rulings when the official ruling were not just meticulously debunked by the scientific community but also laughed out of a federal court doesn't do your credibility any favors.

[FortheWin]

23 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

If and when Kraft has to pay for the prostitution issue the Patriots will pass the total amount of fines paid by any team in history. 

Why this issue hasn't been addressed yet is beyond me. 

Kraft's deep pockets must be at work. 

I think the case has been closed. The videos that were took were deemed illegal by the courts.

[FortheWin]

2 minutes ago, Imgrandojji said:

It comes down to what does it actually take to win in the NFL.  A certain ruthlessness and willingness to push for every advantage is a required part of the alchemy of winning.  Eventually you're going to do something that you think is legal and someone else disagrees, or that you think is against a rule that is never enforced and someone randomly enforces it.  This is every NFL team that has won for an extended period of time.

 

Bottom line, if you're not prepared to do everything you think you can get away with to win, you'll win less than you possibly could, if you're a winner that's unacceptable to you, and thus you have Belichick skirting the edges of the rules and getting burnt by it occasionally.

 

exacerbating this is the fact that 31 teams are anxious for anything to bring down the Dynasty and will engage in gamesmanship to do so, and that the league itself is controlled by the owners of the teams, means that when a dominant team steps over the line, especially one that's been dominant for a very, very long time, the hammer tends to come down hard.

I am not sure it is that neat and clean. Belichick has admitted to pushing the rules as far as he can and then when Goodell came down on him for spygate he said he began to ratchet things down. The Patriots own the cheating narrative when they like it or not. It just depends how much people really care. I think with time everything kind of settles down which is why there is so little talk of the cheating anymore. I think teams want to see if they can duplicate the success. 

[King Colt]

Everybody cheat in sports. One of the biggest examples is the catchers in baseball. With every pitch that is just off the plate the catcher shifts his glove from where the ball was caught to a spot in the strike zone and this happens hundreds of times everyday of the baseball season. It is like the phantom foot touch of second base on double plays that has been finally ruled illegal after a hundred years. 

[Imgrandojji]

9 hours ago, FortheWin said:

I am not sure it is that neat and clean. Belichick has admitted to pushing the rules as far as he can and then when Goodell came down on him for spygate he said he began to ratchet things down. The Patriots own the cheating narrative when they like it or not. It just depends how much people really care. I think with time everything kind of settles down which is why there is so little talk of the cheating anymore. I think teams want to see if they can duplicate the success. 

I think at this point it's obvious that they could duplicate the success, at least with that coach and that QB working together.  Pretty clear that that combination was a bigger factor in their success than their rather casual relationship with the rulebook.

[Imgrandojji]

9 hours ago, FortheWin said:

I think the case has been closed. The videos that were took were deemed illegal by the courts.

Yes and let's be honest here, it was legitimately terrible that those videos made it out to the public when they were evidence in a court case.  I'm sure we wouldn't have wanted Irsay treated that bad by the media. especially the time he got behind the wheel with a legendary BAC in October of 2014 as documented in this video among others

 

 

Being a customer in a house of ill repute or drunken driving, really which is worse is a matter of opinion, after all happy endings don't put innocent people's lives at risk

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 minutes ago, Imgrandojji said:

I think at this point it's obvious that they could duplicate the success, at least with that coach and that QB working together.  Pretty clear that that combination was a bigger factor in their success than their rather casual relationship with the rulebook.

What bothers me about the Pats is, they didn't need to cheat to win but still did as proven with Spygate and Deflategate. Belichick just wanted to make sure they won I guess lol. Without that crap they still were better than everyone else which is ashame in my book. If I was a Pats fan it would always be in the back of my mind that they cheated eventhough I would be happy with 6 championships. It is still pretty cool how the Manning's blocked the Pats from winning at least 5 more SB's. Eli beat them twice in the SB and Peyton 3 times in the AFC Title Game.

[Pelt]

58 minutes ago, Imgrandojji said:

Being a customer in a house of ill repute or drunken driving, really which is worse is a matter of opinion, after all happy endings don't put innocent people's lives at risk

Well, yeah, when you want to completely ignore the whole human trafficking aspect to it - which absolutely places lives at risk and even death.

 

Both are wrong, but Kraft is a human pile of steaming excrement.

[Imgrandojji]

43 minutes ago, Pelt said:

Well, yeah, when you want to completely ignore the whole human trafficking aspect to it - which absolutely places lives at risk and even death.

 

But isn't as direct and obviously stupid as driving while intoxicated.  

 

You're really straining to make this one fit.  Frankly, Irsay doesn't look any better than Kraft and by a lot of independent standards looks far worse.  DUI is freaking stupid and terrible, and is a direct threat to the life and safety of everyone on the road. 

 

I've lost a family member to drunk driving and it was his fault, still destroys me that the last thing I know my cousin for is being freaking stupid and killing both himself and another human being because he couldn't put down his keys. 

 

Getting a happy ending from a massage parlor that Florida prosecutors had to admit may or may not have ever had anything in the slightest to do with human trafficking doesn't compare IMHO.

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/robert-kraft-massage-parlor-prosecutor-no-human-trafficking-2019-4

 

I'll note for the sake of accuracy that what Florida prosecutors actually admitted was that they couldn't prove it, and it's fair to point out that absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence, but that's still a big hole in the whole "Kraft/human trafficking" angle that fingerpointers need to be accounting for.

 

meanwhile we all know Irsay got drunk and/or coked up and drove a car in the fall of 2014.  the video evidence is so damning there's simply no denying it.  I've already posted a link to the video where he was literally caught red handed.

 

Drunk driving is worse than getting a little happy tappy by a paid masseuse by  several orders of magnitude in my very biased opinion.

 

Bottom line, fan of Jim Irsay's team have no place in the world trying to point fingers at Bob Kraft.  Especially since Kraft is the only owner in North American sports to build his stadium entirely with private funds.

[Imgrandojji]

1 hour ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

What bothers me about the Pats is, they didn't need to cheat to win but still did as proven with Spygate and Deflategate. 

Deflategate proved nothing.  Even the Wells report had to admit that the evidence against Brady in particular was completely inconclusive, and the scientists poked a lot of holes in the evidence against the franchise as a whole.  When MIT, the federal courts, and every pundit in America are laughing at your attempts to prove your case, and the only reason Goodell got his way is because the NFLPA is literally useless, it's really hard to cite Deflategate as evidence of anything at all.

 

Colts fans can't cite Deflategate, to be perfectly frank, without opening themselves up to be reminded that our own balls were also below PSI.  Either the gagues were off, in which case we have no evidence against the Patriots, or the gagues were accurate, in which case our balls were also deflated.  Not a lot of wiggle room there.

 

As for spygate, if you actually read the deets on what happened, it was a procedural violation.  I still for the life of me can't figure out what tactical advantage the Patriots were supposed to have gained.  They were penalized because Goodell put down a memo about where not to film from, Belichick ignored it because he always ignores pointless league memos, and Goodell got PO'd and made an example of them.  I can't really call that cheating when the whole thing essentially came down to a clash of egos between Belichick and Goodell rather than any kind of quest for an on-field advantage.

[Imgrandojji]

2 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

. If I was a Pats fan it would always be in the back of my mind that they cheated eventhough I would be happy with 6 championships. 

 

If you were a Pats fan you wouldn't be admitting that there was any cheating, just like people aren't squaring up to Irsay's DUI in this thread when I bring it up.

 

Frankly everything brought up against the Patriots in the last 15 years has been at least a bit of a stretch. it's an easy argument to make that the Patriots were overpunished in Spygate, and the FEDERAL COURTS RULED that they were overpunished in Deflategate and that Goodell hadn't even come close to making his case.  Deflating footballs is endemic in the NFL and by no means limited to the Patriots, and certainly wasn't the reason they beat us in 2014.  If memory serves, they drove us before them and heard the lamentations of our women.

 

A proper punishment for Spygate would have been a 5 figure fine and moving their third round pick to the end of the round.  A proper punishment for Deflategate would have been a fine for Brady, a fine for the organization and the loss of a 4th round pick.  This is based on precedent that already existed at the time for similar violations.

 

BTW there's a certain segment of the Patriots community that H A T E S Kraft for not standing up to Goodell on Deflategate

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 minutes ago, Imgrandojji said:

 

If you were a Pats fan you wouldn't be admitting that there was any cheating, just like people aren't squaring up to Irsay's DUI in this thread when I bring it up.

 

Frankly everything brought up against the Patriots in the last 15 years has been at least a bit of a stretch. it's an easy argument to make that the Patriots were overpunished in Spygate, and the FEDERAL COURTS RULED that they were overpunished in Deflategate and that Goodell hadn't even come close to making his case.  Deflating footballs is endemic in the NFL and by no means limited to the Patriots, and certainly wasn't the reason they beat us in 2014.  If memory serves, they drove us before them and heard the lamentations of our women.

There have been millions 'MILLIONS' of people that have gotten a DWI. That is common. I have an uncle that has 1. Irsay didn't hurt anyone and learned his lesson. Getting a DWI doesn't make somebody a bad person. Should someone drink and drive, hell no but I have a friend that got a DWI after having 3 beers with dinner and he wasn't even drunk but tested .09. I drink but don't drive when I do. I can drink 3 beers and trust me I am nowhere drunk and could drive but I don't. Human Trafficking is a lot worse than a DWI unless a person injures or kills someone while driving. Irsay did neither.

 

I am not defending Irsay, what he did was wrong but millions of people have done what he did and he hurt nobody. 

[Imgrandojji]

13 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

There have been millions 'MILLIONS' of people that have gotten a DWI. That is common.

 

I know, it's one of the most pervasive problems with our culture today.  It's so commonplace that it's become trivialized, and as such, we don't take it nearly as seriously as we should.  Every year DUI kills more people than handguns.  It's a serious problem and the fact that we as a culture don't take this serious problem seriously only makes it worse.

 

And in no way is that made more clear than how the DUIs of the rich and famous are laughed off as a minor faux pas.  The fact is that we lose a pro athlete to DUIs every few years, I think Florida Marlins ace pitcher Jose Fernandez was the latest.  But no, let's just pretend that it's not an issue just because it happens all the time everywhere, rather than being the absolutely bloody stupid and avoidable waste of life it really is.

 

Quote

 

Getting a DWI doesn't make somebody a bad person.

Sure as heck doesn't make them a good person.  Frankly DWI/DUI/OUI should be far more stigmatized than it is IMHO.

 

Quote

 

 Should someone drink and drive, hell no but I have a friend that got a DWI after having 3 beers with dinner and he wasn't even drunk but tested .09. I drink but don't drive when I do. I can drink 3 beers and trust me I am nowhere drunk and could drive but I don't. Human Trafficking is a lot worse than a DWI unless a person injures or kills someone while driving. Irsay did neither.

 

I am not defending Irsay, what he did was wrong but millions of people have done what he did and he hurt nobody. 

 

He hurt nobody?  Sure but it wasn't for any lack of effort on his part!  And the guy I'm comparing him to didn't hurt anyone by paying for a bit of extra after his massage, and that didn't stop people from bringing the house down on him.  Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 minutes ago, Imgrandojji said:

 

I know, it's one of the most pervasive problems with our culture today.  It's so commonplace that it's become trivialized, and as such, we don't take it nearly as seriously as we should.  Every year DUI kills more people than handguns.  It's a serious problem and the fact that we as a culture don't take this serious problem seriously only makes it worse.

 

And in no way is that made more clear than how the DUIs of the rich and famous are laughed off as a minor faux pas.  The fact is that we lose a pro athlete to DUIs every few years, but no, let's just pretend that it's not an issue just because it happens all the time everywhere, rather than being the absolutely bloody stupid and avoidable waste of life it really is.

 

Sure as heck doesn't make them a good person.  Frankly DWI/DUI/OUI should be far more stigmatized than it is IMHO.

 

 

He hurt nobody?  Sure but it wasn't for any lack of effort on his part!

People make mistakes, drinking and driving is wrong I agree with you. Do you think Robert Mathis is a bad person, he has a DWI? He made a mistake but is a good person in general. He didn't hurt anyone. I am not sure what Kraft was up to but it smells bad IMO. Irsay got a DWI and got arrested, end of story. If he does it again then we have a problem. In most cases people deserve a 2nd chance unless they harm a child, rape or kill someone. JMO.

[Imgrandojji]

9 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

 I am not sure what Kraft was up to

 

I'm exactly sure what Kraft was up to.  He's a billionaire widower in the last few years of his life who's been going over his bucket list since his wife Myra died in 2011.  He's been seen in the last few years wearing bling and having a couple trophy GFs.  Dude is spreading his wings, nothing more.

 

If you think that Kraft is the only NFL figurehead that's been caught at totally-not-a-brothel I don't even know what to tell you.

[crazycolt1]

4 hours ago, Imgrandojji said:

 

I'm exactly sure what Kraft was up to.  He's a billionaire widower in the last few years of his life who's been going over his bucket list since his wife Myra died in 2011.  He's been seen in the last few years wearing bling and having a couple trophy GFs.  Dude is spreading his wings, nothing more.

 

If you think that Kraft is the only NFL figurehead that's been caught at totally-not-a-brothel I don't even know what to tell you.

You must be Kraft's lawyer or something the way you are defending him. 

Then you top it off by talking like you know him. 

 

[Crush22]

R.I.P. Don Shula

[FortheWin]

19 hours ago, Imgrandojji said:

I think at this point it's obvious that they could duplicate the success, at least with that coach and that QB working together.  Pretty clear that that combination was a bigger factor in their success than their rather casual relationship with the rulebook.

I always find it amusing when people argue brady vs belichick. Not sure if you have watched any of the Last Dance. But when a team has the most historic run in league history, it is always about the ownership. Kraft is 99% responsible for the 20 years of NE success. Trading a 1 pick to the Jets to even get Belichick was a game changer and thought to be very dumb at the time given Belichick's Cleveland history and then allowing Belichick to trade Bledsoe to the Bills and go with a 6th round pick is even more head scratching. I guarantee that 31 out of 31 owners would have vetoed that move and that move is what launched the dynasty. Then of course he has kept the whole thing together with two alpha males for two decades. That is the part that is amazing. That type of success always causes fractures because the egos get too big.

[crazycolt1]

3 minutes ago, FortheWin said:

I always find it amusing when people argue brady vs belichick. Not sure if you have watched any of the Last Dance. But when a team has the most historic run in league history, it is always about the ownership. Kraft is 99% responsible for the 20 years of NE success. Trading a 1 pick to the Jets to even get Belichick was a game changer and thought to be very dumb at the time given Belichick's Cleveland history and then allowing Belichick to trade Bledsoe to the Bills and go with a 6th round pick is even more head scratching. I guarantee that 31 out of 31 owners would have vetoed that move and that move is what launched the dynasty. Then of course he has kept the whole thing together with two alpha males for two decades. That is the part that is amazing. That type of success always causes fractures because the egos get too big.

I don't think Kraft has had as much to do with the Patriots success that you give him credit for. The only reason Belichick went with Brady was because Bledsoe got seriously injured and Brady was the back up. Brady stepped up and only then did Bledsoe get traded. There was no risk trading Bledsoe when Belichick found out how good Brady was. 

Belichick is the main reason the Patriots have had the success. He is the one who built the team and continued to get players that fit his system. 

Even without Brady in the lineup the Patriots continued to win at the same pace. 

Just my 2 cents. 

[Imgrandojji]

40 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

I don't think Kraft has had as much to do with the Patriots success that you give him credit for.

Keeping two massive egos moving in the same direction for 20 years is not a small contribution.  He also always had Belichick's back when Belichick was doing uncomfortable things many owners would flinch at or step in and meddle with

 

In many ways, Bob Kraft was a model owner at least until 2011 when his wife died. 

[crazycolt1]

6 minutes ago, Imgrandojji said:

Keeping two massive egos moving in the same direction for 20 years is not a small contribution.  He also always had Belichick's back when Belichick was doing uncomfortable things many owners would flinch at or step in and meddle with

 

In many ways, Bob Kraft was a model owner at least until 2011 when his wife died. 

Winning is the bottom line for all of it.

You think Kraft would have had Belichick's back had Hoodie not won a ton of games?  

Kraft was not the one who has drafted and traded for the Patriot players. That falls on Belichick and he is the main reason of their success. 

Brady's popularity and his talk of being the GOAT is directly related to Belichick's ability to build a team. 

No matter what the talent level of any one player is they win nothing without a good team around them. In the Patriots case, Belichick has had the ability to not only build good teams but great teams around Brady. 

Kraft knows where is bread and butter are. 

[LockeDown]

On 5/14/2020 at 9:49 AM, FortheWin said:

 

In general, I think the cheating thing in all pro sports is waaay overblown due to our culture these days. We all know teams and players have cheated/bent rules since the beginning of time. There is no bastion of integrity anywhere. For Shula to say he did things the right way is laughable. The Dolphins tampered with the Colts to hire him in the first place which cost them a first round pick. He also had players on steroids and was named in the lawsuit as one of the coaches forcing his players to take pain killers so they would play. To me, none of it really matters. He is still a Hof coach. 

Dungy said he won the Super Bowl the right way. How did he cheat? 

[FortheWin]

1 hour ago, crazycolt1 said:

Winning is the bottom line for all of it.

You think Kraft would have had Belichick's back had Hoodie not won a ton of games?  

Kraft was not the one who has drafted and traded for the Patriot players. That falls on Belichick and he is the main reason of their success. 

Brady's popularity and his talk of being the GOAT is directly related to Belichick's ability to build a team. 

No matter what the talent level of any one player is they win nothing without a good team around them. In the Patriots case, Belichick has had the ability to not only build good teams but great teams around Brady. 

Kraft knows where is bread and butter are. 

You are making my point. Kraft is the one in charge with the power to fire Belichick at any time or let him do his thing. I can't imagine some of the things Belichick did over the years were easy for Kraft to sign off on, chief being trading Bledsoe to a division rival in his prime to start a 6th string QB. Everything rises and falls with the owner as he can veto any move made by the GM. Kraft deserves by far the most credit for two decades of dominance. He was really the first owner to allow one person to be both GM and coach which was pretty revolutionary at the time. 

[crazycolt1]

2 hours ago, FortheWin said:

You are making my point. Kraft is the one in charge with the power to fire Belichick at any time or let him do his thing. I can't imagine some of the things Belichick did over the years were easy for Kraft to sign off on, chief being trading Bledsoe to a division rival in his prime to start a 6th string QB. Everything rises and falls with the owner as he can veto any move made by the GM. Kraft deserves by far the most credit for two decades of dominance. He was really the first owner to allow one person to be both GM and coach which was pretty revolutionary at the time. 

Making you point?

The reason Kraft has let Belichick run the show is because of the winning. 

Kraft cares about winning more than he does running a clean program. 

You making out like Kraft has done this amazing thing by letting Belichick run the show. Like you said, he let everything slide without checking if was against the rules or not. 

 

[King Colt]

If Kraft could not afford to pay all of the fines he would not urge his team to cheat