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Ben Banogu


NorthernColt

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6 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Drafting a slot is not the same thing as drafting an outside guy.  What do you not understand about people wanting to draft an outside guy instead of another pass rusher?  Especially if you simply follow BPA.

 

Why is so difficult for you to believe that many on the forum wanted to draft AJBrown instead of Ben at the time, especially since that's exactly what they are telling you?

 

Hindsight is using facts that you know now....about what has happened over the past year....to reconsider how you viewed things in the past.  The only person talking about hindsight is you.

 

Hindsight is everything. Could you have definitively told me going into the draft last year that Brown would be better than Banogu or Campbell? No, nobody could. Brown was a hit, Banogu was a miss, but during the draft, both were just projection picks. No certainty at all. Sure, looking back, Brown is great, but we didn't know he would be that good at draft time.

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15 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Drafting a slot is not the same thing as drafting an outside guy.  What do you not understand about people wanting to draft an outside guy instead of another pass rusher?  Especially if you simply follow BPA.

 

Why is so difficult for you to believe that many on the forum wanted to draft AJBrown instead of Ben at the time, especially since that's exactly what they are telling you?

 

Hindsight is using facts that you know now....about what has happened over the past year....to reconsider how you viewed things in the past.  The only person talking about hindsight is you.

 

At the time Banogu was drafted it was thought by most including Ballard that the pass rush WAS more important than another receiver. 

Luck had not retired yet and our receiving crew was not thought to be a problem. 

Is that hard to understand? 

When you say we should have done this that is using hindsight after the fact.

 

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Hindsight or not, I vividly remember people wanting Brown before/during the draft. There were rumors we were looking to take Banogu earlier than most projections (3rd/4th rounder). I wanted Brown in that spot but what’s done is done.

 

Hopefully Banogu keeps improving though, it seems like he’s working hard.

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Just now, crazycolt1 said:

At the time Banogu was drafted it was thought by most including Ballard that the pass rush WAS more important than another receiver. 

Luck had not retired yet and our receiving crew was not thought to be a problem. 

Is that hard to understand? 

 

By only the blind.  Every other person who didn't have the opinion that Fountain and Cain were future stars simply because they were drafted by Ballard the year before knew WR was still a problem.  Remember, this was the time when the blind saw Ballard as being a genius because he somehow stole second round talent Cain in the 6th round, LOL.

 

At the time, we know Ballard thought that WR was a problem because he drafted PC the next pick after Ben.  

 

I'm done here.  You can argue with yourself about what others were thinking, but I know what I was thinking and know what others wrote at the time of the Ben pick, so carry on.   

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1 minute ago, DougDew said:

By only the blind.  Every other person who didn't have the opinion that Fountain and Cain were future stars simply because they were drafted by Ballard the year before knew WR was still a problem.  Remember, this was the time when the blind saw Ballard as being a genius because he somehow stole second round talent Cain in the 6th round, LOL.

 

At the time, we know Ballard thought that WR was a problem because he drafted PC the next pick after Ben.  

 

I'm done here.  You can argue with yourself about what others were thinking, but I know what I was thinking and know what others wrote at the time of the Ben pick, so carry on.   

The minute you opened your mouth and said we should have done anything except what was done is exactly what hindsight is. 

And I will carry on just as you will. 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hindsight

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44 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Remembering that I've been lecturing the forum about not having a good #2 WR each year for five years ever since Reggie hurt his knee is not called hindsight.  Its called recall.

 

And here is the problem!  If I need a lecture I will go back to college.  Express your opinion but until you are an expert stop lecturing.

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26 minutes ago, WarGhost21 said:

Hindsight is everything. Could you have definitively told me going into the draft last year that Brown would be better than Banogu or Campbell? No, nobody could. Brown was a hit, Banogu was a miss, but during the draft, both were just projection picks. No certainty at all. Sure, looking back, Brown is great, but we didn't know he would be that good at draft time.


Definitely give AJ his props for an awesome first year - it would be great to have him this coming season. But calling Ben Banogu a “miss” is a bit premature. I’m hoping he gets more playing time this season.

 

Ben is a super nice, hard working guy, so I’m holding out hope he becomes a big piece for us. :goodluck: 

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28 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

The minute you opened your mouth and said we should have done anything except what was done is exactly what hindsight is. 

And I will carry on just as you will. 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hindsight

No, it is not.  Hindsight is understanding the situation ONLY AFTER IT HAS HAPPENED.

 

Many wanted Brown over Benagu at the time.   Saying that again one year later does not now make it hindsight.  Seeing how they both have played since then has nothing to do with it.

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1 hour ago, crazycolt1 said:

 

Using hindsight serves no purpose at this point.

At the time Banogu was drafted Ballard had no clue we would end up with the wide receiver position being what it ended up being. 

Every fan in this forum thought we were in good shape at the receiver position. 

 

Being upset at the time when Ballard overlooked A.J. Brown for Banogu is not hindsight. Also, CB picked a WR with his very next pick, so obviously CB did think WR was a need.

 

 Many on this forum clearly recall when Grigson passed on X. Rhodes for B. Werner and were upset about it. It wasn't hindsight, rather, it was foresight.

1 hour ago, WarGhost21 said:

Yes, in hindsight, Brown would be nice. But we had Hilton, had just signed Devin Funchess, and literally drafted a WR just a few picks earlier in the draft. Brown was nowhere near being in the picture at that point, no matter what anybody says. You don't pick two WRs back to back in the 2nd round unless you are a team with a desperate need at the position and few holes elsewhere. We were not that team, we had WR's, we needed help elsewhere. It just wasn't sensible at that point.

We can't go back in time, so this is just my opinion: We could have drafted A.J. Brown at pick No. 49 and then Banogu at pick No.59, essentially still ending up with a WR and DL. Parris Cambell would be the odd man out in this scenario.

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2 hours ago, boo2202 said:

Not sure about every fan. Most wanted A.J. brown or even metcalf when he started falling. A lot liked the campbell pick because they thought finding a replacement for ty was needed.

That is incorrect.  We didn't  want  a replacement to  T.y. we wanted someone  who could draw coverage  away from T.y. like when reggie wayne and marvin Harrison  were together.  We don't  want just one great receiver.  We want two at once.

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2 minutes ago, Flash7 said:

Being upset at the time when Ballard overlooked A.J. Brown for Banogu is not hindsight. Also, CB picked a WR with his very next pick, so obviously CB did think WR was a need.

 

 Many on this forum clearly recall when Grigson passed on X. Rhodes for B. Werner and were upset about it. It wasn't hindsight, rather, it was foresight.

We can't go back in time, so this is just my opinion: We could have drafted A.J. Brown at pick No. 49 and then Banogu at pick No.59, essentially still ending up with a WR and DL. Parris Cambell would be the odd man out in this scenario.

What happens if Campbell  and Banogu ball out this year?  It completely wipes away your argument.  You guys are being waaay too premature.

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1 minute ago, LockeDown said:

What happens if Campbell  and Banogu ball out this year?  It completely wipes away your argument.  You guys are being waaay too premature.

I fully expect P. Campbell to ball out.

 

Banogu....not so much, but hope he does.

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Unfortunately, he didn't show much on tape in college or the NFL regarding his pass rush skills imo.  Run defense, setting the edge, frankly I didn't watch much, so have little idea of his skills there.  But purely as a pass rusher, not much. 

 

However, I thought the same of Turay in his rookie year and it looked like he was heading to a pretty good second year, so maybe the same thing happens with banogu. 

 

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31 minutes ago, gspdx said:

 

And here is the problem!  If I need a lecture I will go back to college.  Express your opinion but until you are an expert stop lecturing.

Apparently the current and past GMs think the same thing as me about about needing a #2 WR.  They keep signing different ones every year...

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54 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Thanks.  That's the way I remember it to, but didn't want to argue over that.  Regardless, they play two different positions and the need for a long term outside guy was still evident because we signed Funch to only one year....and Funch was a question mark to begin with given his history in CAR.

 

Getting a long term outside WR and a long term slot was more of a priority than getting another second round pass rusher.  Not to mention, of the three Brown was BPA at 49.

Honestly  I heard marquise brown  was our real target, but the ravens took him so we traded back and got ya .sin

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People throw around BPA like they know what they are talking about from reading a few blips of profile info online....or watching a highlight reel.

 

Meanwhile the scouts and coaches have spent mindless hours breaking down film, talking to current and former teammates, current and former coaches, current and former teachers, family, friends and lastly - the player themselves.

 

BPA is according to the COLTS COACHING STAFF and what they want - not what us fans want.

 

Perhaps they did want A.J. Brown had he made it to the spot we drafted Parris Campbell at, but he didn't and the rest is history - and hindsight to whine about it now.

 

......... That's like going back to 1990 and drafting Neil O'Donnell, Andre Ware or Scott Mitchell who all had similar (or more successful) careers to Jeff George number 1 overall. Hindsight.

 

For those of you bashing on Banogu, there is plenty to like from his game but you are too wrapped up in your hindsight to see it. A.J. Moore had a good rookie season. One season a career does not make.

 

Hindsight: understanding of a situation or event only after it has happened or developed.

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53 minutes ago, WarGhost21 said:

Hindsight is everything. Could you have definitively told me going into the draft last year that Brown would be better than Banogu or Campbell? No, nobody could. Brown was a hit, Banogu was a miss, but during the draft, both were just projection picks. No certainty at all. Sure, looking back, Brown is great, but we didn't know he would be that good at draft time.

I could have.  Infact many experts thought brown was the best wr in the draft because  he could run more routes than metcalf. I was disappointed  we didn't  get niether one and wanted marquis  brown over all the others anyway. 

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15 minutes ago, Stephen said:

That is incorrect.  We didn't  want  a replacement to  T.y. we wanted someone  who could draw coverage  away from T.y. like when reggie wayne and marvin Harrison  were together.  We don't  want just one great receiver.  We want two at once.

Well you know what I meant. TY hasn’t had the cleanest bill of health the past two years. Many have stated even last year that wr needs to be addressed with TY aging.

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What’s wrong with hindsight?  I win the lottery every week in hindsight.  Of course I get nothing, same as what we’re getting from AJ Brown by drafting him in hindsight.  We might still get something from Banogu.  Be patient.....

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A lot of the skepticism also stems from the fact that it was preceded by the drafting of Tyquan Lewis, who has underwhelmed compared to our expectations of a 2nd round player. Talent trumps system fit if you have a plan to make the talent work, IMO. Fair or not, those lowered expectations reflect on to Banogu, fearful that he might turn out to be likewise. 

 

It also reminded me of Kelvin Hayden and Pat Angerer, 2 second round picks of Polian, that fans thought were over drafted. Lo behold, one makes a game winning play in the SB with a pick six. When a team is winning, a lot of faults are overlooked, and every small role made by a role player is embellished and praised. Pat Angerer was a 1 contract guy, a drag down tackler, I remember, not the one who gets the back down right away. 

 

Ballard is not without faults, just like every other GM, and no one even bats close to .500 in the draft. We just have to remind ourselves that when the draft hits come, the misses' impact is diminished. Hindsight will ALWAYS tell you differently.

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28 minutes ago, Stephen said:

That is incorrect.  We didn't  want  a replacement to  T.y. we wanted someone  who could draw coverage  away from T.y. like when reggie wayne and marvin Harrison  were together.  We don't  want just one great receiver.  We want two at once.

I understand that but it didn't go that way. Ballard is not 100% correct but I'm not going to be the one too make an issue of it. 

Like most any GM in the league would say, "you win some, you lose some" to each other. 

Ballard's percentage of making the right moves is pretty high. He stands up and explains himself as to why he done something. I cant let the what ifs bother me because I had no control in the first place. :dunno: 

 

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9 minutes ago, Scott Pennock said:

People throw around BPA like they know what they are talking about from reading a few blips of profile info online....or watching a highlight reel.

 

Meanwhile the scouts and coaches have spent mindless hours breaking down film, talking to current and former teammates, current and former coaches, current and former teachers, family, friends and lastly - the player themselves.

 

BPA is according to the COLTS COACHING STAFF and what they want - not what us fans want.

 

Perhaps they did want A.J. Brown had he made it to the spot we drafted Parris Campbell at, but he didn't and the rest is history - and hindsight to whine about it now.

 

......... That's like going back to 1990 and drafting Neil O'Donnell, Andre Ware or Scott Mitchell who all had similar (or more successful) careers to Jeff George number 1 overall. Hindsight.

 

For those of you bashing on Banogu, there is plenty to like from his game but you are too wrapped up in your hindsight to see it. A.J. Moore had a good rookie season. One season a career does not make.

 

Hindsight: understanding of a situation or event only after it has happened or developed.

In my opinion, we're not using hindsight if we express how we felt the moment the draft occurred.

 

Grigson overlooked X. Rhodes and instead selected B. Werner, and many on this forum were upset them minute that happened. Describing how you felt at that moment is not using hindsight. If anything, it was foresight. We were simply able to identify a mistake that Grigson made, in real time, and then watched it unravel as the year's went on.

 

I was not happy when Ballard selected Banogu over A.J. Brown. Of course, Banogu could become a great player, and I could be wrong. I'm simply expressing what I felt at that moment. Again, this is not hindsight.

 

I am not advocating for going back and re-doing the draft. I'm simply pointing out where I thought Ballard made a mistake. We'll find out if I was wrong in due time.

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38 minutes ago, Stephen said:

I could have.  Infact many experts thought brown was the best wr in the draft because  he could run more routes than metcalf. I was disappointed  we didn't  get niether one and wanted marquis  brown over all the others anyway. 

If you watch last years "With the Next Pick - Episode 5" when they get to their pick and Marquis Brown had just been drafted and was played over their loud speakers......not one person in the room flinched or batted an eye because he was not likely as highly rated on their board than he was on the Ravens.

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I mean I think the WR position last year was good, but when we had ridiculous amount of injuries. 
 

Hilton

Funchess

Campbell

Pascal

Rogers

Johnson

Fountain


That’s a pretty good unit when healthy but we lost the 2 of the top 3 for most of the year and Hilton wasn’t consistently healthy either. Our depth players were also hit when it comes to Fountain who is a good player for 4th/5th on the depth chart. 
 

Basically Brown would of been nice to have but looking at our roster, there was no way to know that Luck would leave and we would have a lot of injuries. I still think Funchess would of been a good #2

 

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15 minutes ago, Flash7 said:

In my opinion, we're not using hindsight if we express how we felt the moment the draft occurred.

 

Grigson overlooked X. Rhodes and instead selected B. Werner, and many on this forum were upset them minute that happened. Describing how you felt at that moment is not using hindsight. If anything, it was foresight. We were simply able to identify a mistake that Grigson made, in real time, and then watched it unravel as the year's went on.

 

I was not happy when Ballard selected Banogu over A.J. Brown. Of course, Banogu could become a great player, and I could be wrong. I'm simply expressing what I felt at that moment. Again, this is not hindsight.

 

I am not advocating for going back and re-doing the draft. I'm simply pointing out where I thought Ballard made a mistake. We'll find out if I was wrong in due time.

Again, your "foresight" is like saying that I am an expert and they are not because I would have picked player X over player Z - oh yeah, and here is my proof per last years production (hindshight) - this my good, makes you guys sound more like a pontificate!

 

Per the Cambridge Dictionary, that means:  "to speak or write and give your opinion about something as if you knew everything about it and as if only your opinion was correct."

 

 

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1 hour ago, WarGhost21 said:

Hindsight is everything. Could you have definitively told me going into the draft last year that Brown would be better than Banogu or Campbell? No, nobody could. Brown was a hit, Banogu was a miss, but during the draft, both were just projection picks. No certainty at all. Sure, looking back, Brown is great, but we didn't know he would be that good at draft time.

That misses the point.

 

Recalling what people thought about what player they wanted at the time has nothing to do with hindsight. They're simply saying at the time of pick 49, they thought that the metrics of the decision tree lead them to wanting Brown at the time.  Pointing that out a year later is not the same thing as trying to show they were right.  Not sure why you're making that leap.

 

For the record, I thought Quincy Wilson was a great pick at the time.  The BPA on the board.  Me repeating that now has nothing to do with hindsight.  In fact, hindsight would force me to change my mind from what I originally said. 

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1 minute ago, DougDew said:

That misses the point.

 

Recalling what people thought about what player they wanted at the time has nothing to do with hindsight. They're simply saying at the time of pick 49, they thought that the metrics of the decision tree lead them to wanting Brown at the time.  Pointing that out a year later is not the same thing as trying to show they were right.  Not sure why you're making that leap.

 

For the record, I thought Quincy Wilson was a great pick at the time.  The BPA on the board.  Me repeating that now has nothing to do with hindsight.  In fact, hindsight would force me to change my mind from what I originally said. 

Not sure why it's so hard for them to grasp this concept.

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While I didn't care for the pick, it's still early for Banogu. He's completely raw coming from the system he came from, so going to give him another year. He had basically no technique coming into the league, so this off season is huge. Hoping the Covid stuff didn't keep him from training. I thought from day one the whole SAM experiment was silly. Anyway, they killed it early and got him back work on DE, which was the right move IMO...

 

I do think it was a reach though, and would bet a ton that he would have been there at 59 (where we took Campbell).... So yes, I would have absolutely taken DKM or AJB at 49. I would have preferred DK simply because we needed the size, but would have been fine with AJB too. I'm also on record saying we should have taken Sweat (instead of trading out of the 1st) as well. I get the health concerns, but obviously he's fine (7 sacks, 2 vs a top OL Dallas), and a team was willing to move up for him. Sweat >>>> Banogu

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1 hour ago, DougDew said:

No, it is not.  Hindsight is understanding the situation ONLY AFTER IT HAS HAPPENED.

 

Many wanted Brown over Benagu at the time.   Saying that again one year later does not now make it hindsight.  Seeing how they both have played since then has nothing to do with it.

I was actually happy with the Banagou pick last year.  However, on the whole hindsight debate...I agree with you.  It is possible to have an opinion based on one’s understanding at the time that is later proven to be correct.  As Flash7 said, that is not hindsight...that’s foresight.  

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9 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

While I didn't care for the pick, it's still early for Banogu. He's completely raw coming from the system he came from, so going to give him another year. He had basically no technique coming into the league, so this off season is huge. Hoping the Covid stuff didn't keep him from training. I thought from day one the whole SAM experiment was silly. Anyway, they killed it early and got him back work on DE, which was the right move IMO...

 

I do think it was a reach though, and would bet a ton that he would have been there at 59 (where we took Campbell).... So yes, I would have absolutely taken DKM or AJB at 49. I would have preferred DK simply because we needed the size, but would have been fine with AJB too. I'm also on record saying we should have taken Sweat (instead of trading out of the 1st) as well. I get the health concerns, but obviously he's fine (7 sacks, 2 vs a top OL Dallas), and a team was willing to move up for him. Sweat >>>> Banogu

There you go again, using the word "pick".  Today is a really bad day to have that avatar.

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11 minutes ago, Coltsman1788 said:

I was actually happy with the Banagou pick last year.  However, on the whole hindsight debate...I agree with you.  It is possible to have an opinion based on one’s understanding at the time that is later proven to be correct.  As Flash7 said, that is not hindsight...that’s foresight.  

And lets be accurate.  Performances from NFL players after their rookie seasons is by no means proof of anybody being right or wrong, so I really don't really understand why anybody would look at it that way.    I'm sure people who saw Brown perform well this season were happy about the way they saw things last draft, but that's human nature and not really an aggressive posture that needs to be challenged, IMO.

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3 hours ago, DougDew said:

Ok, this I have to disagree with a lot.

 

Many on this forum did not believe that the WR position was in good shape.  Funchess on a one year, Inman gone, Cain coming off a knee, Fountain not showing anything.  

 

   

I disagree Doug, I think by the time of the draft last year people were still solidly deluding themselves about Cain. There was still confidence in those 3 days of praise from 2018 training camp and that "he could have been a second round pick if he had a better quarterback" belief was going strong. 

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12 minutes ago, DougDew said:

And lets be accurate.  Performances from NFL players after their rookie seasons is by no means proof of anybody being right or wrong, so I really don't really understand why anybody would look at it that way.    I'm sure people who saw Brown perform well this season were happy about the way they saw things last draft, but that's human nature and not really an aggressive posture that needs to be challenged, IMO.

You are the one that disagreed with crazycolt and challenged him.  He just defended his position. None of this exchange happens if not for you so you shouldn’t act innocent. 

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4 hours ago, NorthernColt said:

Was just going throw tape breakdowns of last season. I was surprised of the Banogu pick so early in the 2nd round at first and was willing to give him a chance. But man, I just don't see anything in his tape. He doesn't have great bend, no real go to rush move, not great agility, motor isn't all that hot either. I love Turays tape and its a shame his season ended how it did, but I'm just not seeing it with Banogu.

 

It almost seems like they drafted him high because they thought he would be that Jamie Collins type, where he could play SAM, then move to DE during passing downs, which made him valuable. But once they axed that idea in training camp, half his value goes out the window.

 

Am I missing something?

Wow!    A rookie that doesn’t live up to the hype!   That almost never happens! Except the 60-70 percent of rookies who also don’t do much their first year.

 

Why are you drawing conclusions based on one season.   Typically rookies aren’t judged until after THREE seasons.   You’ve pulled the trigger on the kid two years too soon.

 

Lets talk about him in April of 2022 or 23,  virus allowing. 

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