Colts showing interest in Eason and Hurts

[Coffeedrinker]

5 minutes ago, MikeCurtis said:

Chad Pennington had a nickname...... “Noodle arm”

Players that played with him and left, also called him that

 

Very Accurate passer, but people figured his game out

 

He wasn’t going deep....

But that wasn't until after he had two shoulder surgeries on his right shoulder.  Never known for a strong arm, after two surgeries it was shot.

 

To help dispel some rumors about his arm strength, here is the official combine throwing velocity from 2008 to present. https://www.ourlads.com/story/default/Quarterback-Ball-Velocity-at-NFL-Combine-2008-2017/10243/dh/

 

Make of it what you will.

[richard pallo]

The only way I can see any possibility of us drafting either one of these guys is if we trade back in the second and get an extra 3rd.  

[coltsfan40]

I think the Morgan interest is a late add if they miss one they really want. At #34 Colts will select the one they really want if he is their. Jalen Hurts Oklahoma !! Here first.

[MikeCurtis]

7 minutes ago, coltsfan40 said:

I think the Morgan interest is a late add if they miss one they really want. At #34 Colts will select the one they really want if he is their. Jalen Hurts Oklahoma !! Here first.

You may be right

 

There is enough activity that it would lead you to believe that they want a rookie QB to develop

 

Morgan seems to have enough arm strength....

 

He seems to have some downfield accuracy issues

[stitches]

Fromm having beaten 2 no. 1 QB recruits in the country 2 years in a row for the starting job at Georgia is not something to underestimate. There are obviously things that coaches absolutely love about him. All the inside information that is coming from Georgia is that he's a tremendous leader and extremely smart player. To say he's a coach's favorite would be an understatement. I honestly have never heard ANYTHING negative about him anywhere he's ever been. I've heard great things about him from pre-college camps, I've heard glowing reviews from his stay in Georgia, I've heard him acing the meetings and interviews he had in the pre-draft process. At every level he's ever been, he impresses, it seems, when it comes to his work ethic, his smarts, his leadership, his ability to handle a team's offense. etc.

 

I went through several phases with him while watching him this year. At first the more I watched the more I liked him. He looked like he was handling pre-snap assignments in a pro-offense like fashion. He was getting his team in and out of plays at the LOS, He was accurate in the short to intermediate range and he was throwing with good anticipation. Then I realized he rarely if ever is under pressure... and I kept watching and Georgia started meeting some teams that presented problems for him that he had no answers for. And I'm not talking about the Alabamas and LSU's of the world. Even teams like South Carolina, Texas A&M were able to create some pressure and he had no answer for it... the slight concerns about his mobility and pocket presence, became more and more obvious to me, and he couldn't make any plays off structure when his plays were breaking down.

 

I don't know if Reich and Ballard like him or not. I can absolutely understand them either way. I personally couldn't get past his lacking pocket presence and playmaking. Coming after a player like Luck(who was exceptional in those areas) those deficiencies were just too glaring for me.  I would prefer if we didn't draft him(or rather if we drafted someone else), but I will make my peace with it even if do draft him, because there are obviously things to like in his game too. 

[Superman]

19 minutes ago, stitches said:

Fromm having beaten 2 no. 1 QB recruits in the country 2 years in a row for the starting job at Georgia is not something to underestimate. There are obviously things that coaches absolutely love about him. All the inside information that is coming from Georgia is that he's a tremendous leader and extremely smart player. To say he's a coach's favorite would be an understatement. I honestly have never heard ANYTHING negative about him anywhere he's ever been. I've heard great things about him from pre-college camps, I've heard glowing reviews from his stay in Georgia, I've heard him acing the meetings and interviews he had in the pre-draft process. At every level he's ever been, he impresses, it seems, when it comes to his work ethic, his smarts, his leadership, his ability to handle a team's offense. etc.

 

I went through several phases with him while watching him this year. At first the more I watched the more I liked him. He looked like he was handling pre-snap assignments in a pro-offense like fashion. He was getting his team in and out of plays at the LOS, He was accurate in the short to intermediate range and he was throwing with good anticipation. Then I realized he rarely if ever is under pressure... and I kept watching and Georgia started meeting some teams that presented problems for him that he had no answers for. And I'm not talking about the Alabamas and LSU's of the world. Even teams like South Carolina, Texas A&M were able to create some pressure and he had no answer for it... the slight concerns about his mobility and pocket presence, became more and more obvious to me, and he couldn't make any plays off structure when his plays were breaking down.

 

I don't know if Reich and Ballard like him or not. I can absolutely understand them either way. I personally couldn't get past his lacking pocket presence and playmaking. Coming after a player like Luck(who was exceptional in those areas) those deficiencies were just too glaring for me.  I would prefer if we didn't draft him(or rather if we drafted someone else), but I will make my peace with it even if do draft him, because there are obviously things to like in his game too. 

 

Good post. I'm impressed with his accuracy, and I think the concerns about his arm are overblown. He's no rocket launcher, but his arm is fine.

 

His breakdowns under pressure are the biggest concern, for me. I don't know if he has the ability to improvise, don't know if he's a playmaker (he has some impressive plays on tape, but a lot more falling apart). 

 

It reminds me of the Peyton Manning vs Ryan Leaf discussion. No, not comparing anyone to Manning, just saying that Manning was seen as the by the book, super smart and prepared, does everything right, not very athletic or good at improvising when the play breaks down kind of guy, and he remained that kind of guy throughout his career (just watched the 2005 game vs the Pats; pressure was always a problem for him). He just got so good at anticipating what the defense was going to do and figuring out how to beat it that he never had to improvise. From 2003 on, he was nearly unsackable, you couldn't blitz him with any regularity, and he picked his spots to go over the top.

 

Of course, that's Peyton Manning. My point is just that I think because he turned out to be the best ever at beating the defense before the snap, people forget that his limitations were held against him when he was coming out. At least by pundits, if not by NFL evaluators.

 

Back to Fromm, there's a lot to like. Completely different evaluation than the guys with elite physical gifts, though. Protections, adjustments, accuracy, anticipation... I think we would notice a difference from Brissett in just those areas alone.

[OffensivelyPC]

37 minutes ago, coltsfan40 said:

I think the Morgan interest is a late add if they miss one they really want. At #34 Colts will select the one they really want if he is their. Jalen Hurts Oklahoma !! Here first.

I would instantly begin to question whether Ballard had a gun pointed at his head, forced to decide between drafting Jalen Hurts at #34 or getting shot in the head.

[OffensivelyPC]

I think it would be a travesty if we took Jurts or Eason.  You can't coach accuracy on the former.  And in the latter, I don't like it when I hear questionable work ethic on top of seeing ghosts while under pressure. 

 

I'm coming around on Fromm, but he's still not really a guy I want to bet my career on.  I could be wrong, some of you have made some good points.  But still . . . I don't think anyone really thinks of a franchise QB and imagines Fromm.

[stitches]

21 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Good post. I'm impressed with his accuracy, and I think the concerns about his arm are overblown. He's no rocket launcher, but his arm is fine.

 

His breakdowns under pressure are the biggest concern, for me. I don't know if he has the ability to improvise, don't know if he's a playmaker (he has some impressive plays on tape, but a lot more falling apart). 

 

It reminds me of the Peyton Manning vs Ryan Leaf discussion. No, not comparing anyone to Manning, just saying that Manning was seen as the by the book, super smart and prepared, does everything right, not very athletic or good at improvising when the play breaks down kind of guy, and he remained that kind of guy throughout his career (just watched the 2005 game vs the Pats; pressure was always a problem for him). He just got so good at anticipating what the defense was going to do and figuring out how to beat it that he never had to improvise. From 2003 on, he was nearly unsackable, you couldn't blitz him with any regularity, and he picked his spots to go over the top.

 

Of course, that's Peyton Manning. My point is just that I think because he turned out to be the best ever at beating the defense before the snap, people forget that his limitations were held against him when he was coming out. At least by pundits, if not by NFL evaluators.

 

Back to Fromm, there's a lot to like. Completely different evaluation than the guys with elite physical gifts, though. Protections, adjustments, accuracy, anticipation... I think we would notice a difference from Brissett in just those areas alone.

Yep, the inability to navigate the pocket under pressure is a big thing for me. But also... it seems to be something that players can improve on. For example, I think this is the one area where Brissett has had the biggest improvement in his game. He still is not top of the league at it, but he used to be horrible and he's now very passable in this regard. He won't become Luck in this regard, but he very well might become average when you consider his smarts.

 

It's interesting that you mention Brissett because someone here a while ago said that Fromm and Brissett are very alike. This was a weird thing for me because to a degree this is right - they both seem like game manager type QBs who lack the big time throws element, but they get there in completely different ways - one does it by dissecting the opponent in the short-to-intermediate range with accuracy and anticipation, while the other one completely lacks anticipation. One can throw the ball with the best of them, but doesn't do it often enough because he's extremely passive, while the other one doesn't threaten the deep field because his ball loses velocity on some throws(I still don't think his arm is even average, but I don't think this is a major weakness). They get to a relatively similar type of game for completely different reasons.

 

If I had to choose one I'd pick Fromm, because first there is a chance he's more than that and he turns into a high end Cousins-type or maybe... maybe in the top 1-2 percent of outcomes he becomes something similar to Brees. But even if he's a game manager I would still prefer his type of play to Brissett's. I won't worry with him that he will be missing wide open throws and I won't worry that he won't be able to throw to crossing routes with touch and I won't worry that he lacks anticipation to throw guys open. 

[Superman]

6 minutes ago, stitches said:

Yep, the inability to navigate the pocket under pressure is a big thing for me. But also... it seems to be something that players can improve on. For example, I think this is the one area where Brissett has had the biggest improvement in his game. He still is top of the league at it, but he used to be horrible and he's now very passable in this regard. He won't become Luck in this regard, but he very well might become average when you consider his smarts.

 

It's interesting that you mention Brissett because someone here a while ago said that Fromm and Brissett are very alike. This was a weird thing for me because to a degree this is right - they both seem like game manager type QBs who lack the big time throws element, but they get there in completely different ways - one does it by dissecting the opponent in the short-to-intermediate range with accuracy and anticipation, while the other one completely lacks anticipation. One can throw the ball with the best of them, but doesn't do it often enough because he's extremely passive, while the other one doesn't threaten the deep field because his ball loses velocity on some throws(I still don't think his arm is even average, but I don't think this is a major weakness). They get to a relatively similar type of game for completely different reasons.

 

If I had to choose one I'd pick Fromm, because first there is a chance he's more than that and he turns into a high end Cousins-type or maybe... maybe in the top 1-2 percent of outcomes he becomes something similar to Brees. But even if he's a game manager I would still prefer his type of play to Brissett's. I won't worry with him that he will be missing wide open throws and I won't worry that he won't be able to throw to crossing routes with touch and I won't worry that he lacks anticipation to throw guys open. 

 

Do you watch any of JT O'Sullivan's stuff, The QB School? 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

I think Fromm will end up going to NO or the patriots in the late second. So if we do want him we may need to do it with one of our seconds. That could change of course if Love falls to NO or NE.

 

I can certainly see the Brees comparisons in Fromm.

[stitches]

2 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Do you watch any of JT O'Sullivan's stuff, The QB School? 

Yep, he has Fromm no. 3 on his board it seems. Just saw it today and was wondering if I should post it somewhere. 

 

This surprised me because he didn't seem to love him in the first game tape he did of Fromm... I think he did one more later but I didn't watch it, so maybe I missed him falling in love with Fromm.

[buccolts]

Since threads about any QB is really about ALL QBs, regarding Fromm: I'm all that concerned about play making ability. Without it, I'm fine with the ability to throw the ball away, when appropriate, and live to see another play, and trust the offense executes.

 

THAT rather than scrambling around trying to create something, throwing it up for a WR to make a play and taking the INT (Hurts?).

[richard pallo]

Given a choice I think Hurts is the most likely pick from the two.  He has all the attributes I think they would be looking for in a player to make the cut and be a "Colt".   I think his football deficiencies can be coached up. 

[Superman]

11 minutes ago, stitches said:

Yep, he has Fromm no. 3 on his board it seems. Just saw it today and was wondering if I should post it somewhere. 

 

This surprised me because he didn't seem to love him in the first game tape he did of Fromm... I think he did one more later but I didn't watch it, so maybe I missed him falling in love with Fromm.

 

Got a link to his ranking?

[buccolts]

12 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

Given a choice I think Hurts is the most likely pick from the two.  He has all the attributes I think they would be looking for in a player to make the cut and be a "Colt".   I think his football deficiencies can be coached up. 

 

Now THAT sounds like JB.

[stitches]

12 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Got a link to his ranking?

 

[DougDew]

2 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

But that wasn't until after he had two shoulder surgeries on his right shoulder.  Never known for a strong arm, after two surgeries it was shot.

 

To help dispel some rumors about his arm strength, here is the official combine throwing velocity from 2008 to present. https://www.ourlads.com/story/default/Quarterback-Ball-Velocity-at-NFL-Combine-2008-2017/10243/dh/

 

Make of it what you will.

Based upon that link; Love, Hurts, and Fromm have about the same velocity.  Gordon slightly behind.

 

Eason leads the pack.  I keep seeing Jake Luton's name pop up in places.

 

Josh Allen at 62 in 2018 was just nuts.

[krunk]

Im no Jalen Hurts fan.

[DougDew]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

He just got so good at anticipating what the defense was going to do and figuring out how to beat it that he never had to improvise. From 2003 on, he was nearly unsackable, you couldn't blitz him with any regularity, and he picked his spots to go over the top.

 

Of course, that's Peyton Manning. My point is just that I think because he turned out to be the best ever at beating the defense before the snap, people forget that his limitations were held against him when he was coming out. At least by pundits, if not by NFL evaluators.

 

Back to Fromm, there's a lot to like. Completely different evaluation than the guys with elite physical gifts, though. Protections, adjustments, accuracy, anticipation... I think we would notice a difference from Brissett in just those areas alone.

These are points I agree with.  The issue with off script playmaker is while they can convert a lot of plays, they also get injured.  PM used to just dump the ball, when he wasn't forcing it, and lived to play another play.  Nothing wrong with getting zero yards on a play the defense blew up, as long as one of the next two plays can be converted.

 

With our Oline, and what I think is CBs commitment to it, we are probably more suited to getting a pure pocket guy than any other team.  If JB would get 5 second pockets, I'd like to see what a QB that had anticipation and accuracy could do with that, who ever that may be.

[Dr. T]

Fromm is smart and accurate, but he's short, cannot run and has the smallest hands of all this year's QBs: less than 9 inches! Does anyone know how often he fumbles?

[DougDew]

6 minutes ago, Dr. T said:

Fromm is smart and accurate, but he's short, cannot run and has the smallest hands of all this year's QBs: less than 9 inches! Does anyone know how often he fumbles?

I think its a concern.  Two of his worst games came in rainstorms, so I would think grip might be a problem.  Could hurt on developing a strong spiral into the wind, although PMs passes fluttered pretty often and worked around that.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

9 minutes ago, Dr. T said:

Fromm is smart and accurate, but he's short, cannot run and has the smallest hands of all this year's QBs: less than 9 inches! Does anyone know how often he fumbles?

He isn’t any shorter then Brees. I think he might even be a little taller. His hand size is just a smidge smaller then Burrow.

[Coffeedrinker]

13 minutes ago, Dr. T said:

Fromm is smart and accurate, but he's short, cannot run and has the smallest hands of all this year's QBs: less than 9 inches! Does anyone know how often he fumbles?

Fromm 43 Games 11 Fumbles 4 lost  As far as being short, he's 6'2" official from the combine.

 

Some others for Comparison

 

Jordan Love  38 Games 12 Fumbles 6 lost

Jalen Hurts 56 Games 25 Fumbles 14 lost

Jacob Eason  32 games 7 fumbles 6 lost

Anthony Gordon 16 games 5 fumbles 2 lost

Tua 33 games 5 fumbles 3 lost

Joe Burrow - 39 games 11 Fumbles 5 lost

[buccolts]

6 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Fromm 43 Games 11 Fumbles 4 lost  As far as being short, he's 6'2" official from the combine.

 

Some others for Comparison

 

Jordan Love  38 Games 12 Fumbles 6 lost

Jalen Hurts 56 Games 25 Fumbles 14 lost

Jacob Eason  32 games 7 fumbles 6 lost

Anthony Gordon 16 games 5 fumbles 2 lost

Tua 33 games 5 fumbles 3 lost

Joe Burrow - 39 games 11 Fumbles 5 lost

 

So, no concerns there.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

JMV has a guy on talking about Fromm. He is talking about how he doesn’t grip the ball right effecting his throws. He says he believes he isn’t a franchise guy but will be a great backup. 

 

He also says he doesn’t see it with Love. 

[coltsblue1844]

27 minutes ago, Dr. T said:

Fromm is smart and accurate, but he's short, cannot run and has the smallest hands of all this year's QBs: less than 9 inches! Does anyone know how often he fumbles?

He is the same size as Aaron Rodgers, actually...just smaller hands

[Dr. T]

12 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Fromm 43 Games 11 Fumbles 4 lost  As far as being short, he's 6'2" official from the combine.

 

Some others for Comparison

 

Jordan Love  38 Games 12 Fumbles 6 lost

Jalen Hurts 56 Games 25 Fumbles 14 lost

Jacob Eason  32 games 7 fumbles 6 lost

Anthony Gordon 16 games 5 fumbles 2 lost

Tua 33 games 5 fumbles 3 lost

Joe Burrow - 39 games 11 Fumbles 5 lost

Wow! Hurts is the shortest and has fumbled a lot! Did not know that.

And Joe Burrow does have small hands.

I think if the Colts pick a QB, he will be > 6'3 and have hands > 9 inches. Preferably someone who can run or roll out when in trouble as well.  Out of the non-first rounders, that would eliminate Fromm, Hurts, Gordon,  and Eason (can't run).

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

This guy on JMV has a lot of good things to say about Gordon. He says Minshew success might help him in this draft. Talks about him being deadly accurate too.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

3 minutes ago, Dr. T said:

Wow! Hurts is the shortest and has fumbled a lot! Did not know that.

And Joe Burrow does have small hands.

I think if the Colts pick a QB, he will be > 6'3 and have hands > 9 inches. Preferably someone who can run or roll out when in trouble as well.  Out of the non-first rounders, that would eliminate Fromm, Hurts, Gordon,  and Eason (can't run).

I wonder If Hurts fumbles are the product of him just having the ball more in his hands. Gordon actually does ok rolling out.

[Dr. T]

1 minute ago, Chloe6124 said:

This guy on JMV has a lot of good things to say about Gordon. He says Minshew success might help him in this draft. Talks about him being deadly accurate too.

Did not know that Aaron Rodgers was only 6'2, just like Gordon. Hmmm. Gordon was also a baseball player, like Mahomes, giving them some experience of throwing a ball at all different crazy angles.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

3 minutes ago, Dr. T said:

Did not know that Aaron Rodgers was only 6'2, just like Gordon. Hmmm. Gordon was also a baseball player, like Mahomes, giving them some experience of throwing a ball at all different crazy angles.

Yep Gordon does throw at some weird angles too. Gordon was actually drafted by the Mets and chose football. I think Fromm has even mentioned how his baseball background has helped him throw the football.

[DougDew]

25 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

JMV has a guy on talking about Fromm. He is talking about how he doesn’t grip the ball right effecting his throws. He says he believes he isn’t a franchise guy but will be a great backup. 

 

He also says he doesn’t see it with Love. 

Fromm is one of those QBs who after taking the snap, spins the ball horizontally before resting it in his grip.  It looks like somebody twirling a basketball on their finger, but Fromm does it with the ball sideways in his palm as he takes the snap.  Weird.

[Superman]

21 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

JMV has a guy on talking about Fromm. He is talking about how he doesn’t grip the ball right effecting his throws. He says he believes he isn’t a franchise guy but will be a great backup. 

 

He also says he doesn’t see it with Love. 

 

Who's JMV talking to?

 

I learned a new term from watching JT O'Sullivan -- "Rubik's cube." When the QB takes the snap from shotgun, and flips the ball in his hands to find the laces, and some QBs will flip it more than once. It's like flipping a Rubik's cube back and forth while you're trying to solve it.

 

Fromm does this a lot. That might be what they're talking about. I don't see any issues with Fromm's actual grip, but he would do well to secure his hands on the ball without doing the ball flip. It's one less motion, can help him keep his eyes, hands and feet in sync, and help him get the ball out a little bit faster.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

32 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Who's JMV talking to?

 

I learned a new term from watching JT O'Sullivan -- "Rubik's cube." When the QB takes the snap from shotgun, and flips the ball in his hands to find the laces, and some QBs will flip it more than once. It's like flipping a Rubik's cube back and forth while you're trying to solve it.

 

Fromm does this a lot. That might be what they're talking about. I don't see any issues with Fromm's actual grip, but he would do well to secure his hands on the ball without doing the ball flip. It's one less motion, can help him keep his eyes, hands and feet in sync, and help him get the ball out a little bit faster.

I can’t remember who it was. When they put  it up on Spotify I can find out. He was talking about a u grip. I remember watching  a video of Fromm with Chris Simms on youtube and Simms was talking about his fingers not gripping the ball correct.

[ponyboy]

8 hours ago, DougDew said:

Funny, it seems like the only QB the Colts have not shown public interest in is Jake Fromm.

 

Which could mean it's really Fromm they have interest in

[Coffeedrinker]

1 hour ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Fromm 43 Games 11 Fumbles 4 lost  As far as being short, he's 6'2" official from the combine.

1116 touches (touch is a pass attempt or rush attempt) 1 fumble for ever 101.45 tocuhes

Some others for Comparison

 

Jordan Love  38 Games 12 Fumbles 6 lost 1295 touches 1 fumble for every 107.917 touches

Jalen Hurts 56 Games 25 Fumbles 14 lost 1661 touches 1 fumble for every 66.44 touches

Jacob Eason  32 games 7 fumbles 6 lost 864 touches 1 fumble for every 123.428 touches

Anthony Gordon 16 games 5 fumbles 2 lost 745 touches 1 fumble for every 149 touches

Tua 33 games 5 fumbles 3 lost 791 touches (my word for a 33 game starter that is not a lot of touches 1 fumble for every 158.2 touches

Joe Burrow - 39 games 11 Fumbles 5 lost 1203 touches 1 fumble for every 109.363 touches

Added the bolded items above.

[LockeDown]

Fromm was a third baseman and that’s where he learned to throw the football he said. He then showed a little sidearm flick and Chris said he liked that.

[LockeDown]

Jalen ran the ball a lot and took a lot of hits. Probably where the fumbles come from.

[WifiGuy]

4 minutes ago, LockeDown said:

Jalen ran the ball a lot and took a lot of hits. Probably where the fumbles come from.

He also played a lot more games than the others.