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10 minutes ago, BornHoosier said:

Luck had the same OL that were all calling the best in the League today correct?  I kid as I understand these statements mainly due to Quenton Nelson, but the KC playoff game told me that Glow is a weakness that must be addressed if we truly want to have the best OL in the game and lets not forget that his counterpart, Smith also had his worst game of his rookie season.  The right side of the line got abused and not even Luck could save us so your prob correct in saying that it wouldn't matter if we had Superman, Batman, Ironman, Hulk or Capt America at WR.

We usually had an advantage against most teams because of Luck but against teams like the Pats and Chiefs we didn't. Once the Chiefs got Mahomes it was like playing the Pats with Brady. We could beat teams like Houston and Tennessee because Luck was so much better than those teams QB's. He could cover up a lot of mistakes others were making. Watson is good but Luck was better, he proved that in 2018.

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7 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

We usually had an advantage against most teams because of Luck but against teams like the Pats and Chiefs we didn't. Once the Chiefs got Mahomes it was like playing the Pats with Brady. We could beat teams like Houston and Tennessee because Luck was so much better than those teams QB's. He could cover up a lot of mistakes others were making. Watson is good but Luck was better, he proved that in 2018.

Let me remind you that the 2019 Colts went into Arrowhead Stadium and beat the future SB Chiefs and two wks later beat the AFC South winning Texans!  Common Denominator, TY Hilton was healthy!!!!  Sorry, don't mean to beat that dead horse but this is exactly why I compared TY to Luck and Peyton!  His presence alone = a victory over the best of teams and his absence = a loss over the worst of teams!  Call it what you want but proof is in the pudding!

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8 minutes ago, BornHoosier said:

Let me remind you that the 2019 Colts went into Arrowhead Stadium and beat the future SB Chiefs and two wks later beat the AFC South winning Texans!  Common Denominator, TY Hilton was healthy!!!!  Sorry, don't mean to beat that dead horse but this is exactly why I compared TY to Luck and Peyton!  His presence alone = a victory over the best of teams and his absence = a loss over the worst of teams!  Call it what you want but proof is in the pudding!

Can't really debate that, without TY we aren't the same but I have always thought TY was a Batman at WR. I was just stating with Luck we usually had an advantage over most teams.

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I will say this...if we consider that Ballard has just been unlucky with WRs...then we have to concede that Grigs was unlucky with the OL.
 

Grigs signed a starting RT to a big contract...signed a starting G...and drafted a G in the 3rd round...all in his second season. Then the following year he drafted a G/T in the 2nd round. That should have been good enough to build a decent OL...but all of those players got hurt eventually and were gone within 2-3 years.

 

Yet...nearly everyone blames the OL issues from the Luck era on Grigs...both his approach and evaluation.

 

Ultimately...as usual...I think it’s a combination of things for both GMs (injuries, approach and evaluation). In Ballard’s case...the one-year WR flyer signings haven’t worked...and Funchess is the only one that was really due to injury (Aiken didn’t get hurt and Grant played 14 games)...but I would also argue that Funchess is not a very good player either (though at least he is more talented than his FA predecessors).


And last year was the first real draft investment into the position...after drafting mid Day 3 picks. 
 

Injuries haven’t helped...but we also can’t say that Ballard is good at WR evaluation either.

 

Fortunately, this is a very strong WR class. 

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Raiders, Dolphins, Steelers are examples of teams that this 5-2 Colts team should have beat easily but couldn't w/o TY Hilton.  Here are 3 games that would've been sure wins and those are just off the top of my head as there is prob more.  No matter the kicking woes from AV or the lack of NFL talent wr's or the Defense taking a step back in 2019 due to lack of DT presence, IT ALL BOILED DOWN TO IF TY HILTON WAS ACTIVE OR NOT!!!  He made all the other deficiencies disappear and that is Luck and Peyton Status! 

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2 minutes ago, BornHoosier said:

Raiders, Dolphins, Steelers are examples of teams that this 5-2 Colts team should have beat easily but couldn't w/o TY Hilton.  Here are 3 games that would've been sure wins and those are just off the top of my head as there is prob more.  No matter the kicking woes from AV or the lack of NFL talent wr's or the Defense taking a step back in 2019 due to lack of DT presence, IT ALL BOILED DOWN TO IF TY HILTON WAS ACTIVE OR NOT!!!  He made all the other deficiencies disappear and that is Luck and Peyton Status! 

That is why I posted earlier we rely on him way too much. Honestly nothing against JB because that KC win was awesome but had we had Luck at QB we would've won all 3 games you just mentioned without TY IMO. Luck always beat bad teams or average teams.  

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7 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Can't really debate that, without TY we aren't the same but I have always thought TY was a Batman at WR. I was just stating with Luck we usually had an advantage over most teams.

TY has always been a Batman to our team, its just in the last two yrs he's shown weaknesses and breaking down.  With that said in 2019 and with a suspect qb, this Colts team was able to beat the SB Champions at their stadium and the AFC South Champions only because TY was healthy and in the gameplan.  Even with no Luck, his presence alone was at that level that cant be ignored.  If he can only stay healthy with a new qb, great things are ahead but I wan't insurance.

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3 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

That is why I posted earlier we rely on him way too much. Honestly nothing against JB because that KC win was awesome but had we had Luck at QB we would've won all 3 games you just mentioned without TY IMO. Luck always beat bad teams or average teams.  

No doubt that Luck would've won us the Raiders, Dolphins and Steelers game w/o TY and I will even say the Chargers game too.  No way we lose to the Titans, Texans or Jags either regardless of TY status which puts us at 14-2 and right at my prediction of SB champions if Luck didn't retire!  My thread isn't about Luck, its about TY and I believe we still could've been 10-6 or 11-5 just with a healthy TY.

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13 minutes ago, BornHoosier said:

No doubt that Luck would've won us the Raiders, Dolphins and Steelers game w/o TY and I will even say the Chargers game too.  No way we lose to the Titans, Texans or Jags either regardless of TY status which puts us at 14-2 and right at my prediction of SB champions if Luck didn't retire!  My thread isn't about Luck, its about TY and I believe we still could've been 10-6 or 11-5 just with a healthy TY.

That is why I get on so many for hating on JB, had TY been healthy for all 16 games I believe we would've went 10-6. You take any teams best playmaker off they won't be as good. With Luck probably 12-4 or 13-3.

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1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

That is why I get on so many for hating on JB, had TY been healthy for all 16 games I believe we would've went 10-6. You take any teams best playmaker off they won't be as good.

Well never know what could have been for JB as a Colt but I am super pumped that if JB could go 10-6, what could PR do with a healthy TY and a draft replacement OR TWO?  

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7 hours ago, BornHoosier said:

If I'm CB and what he witnessed the last two yrs when it comes to this WR Corps, you darn right I would do everything to break this curse!!  It's so bad that I remember reading where CB didn't understand the fans/media fascination over the wr?  Well Sir, its because it cost you the last two yrs which has me flabbergasted a man of such caliber doesn't see it?  Then I remembered, EVERY GM in this game has their flaw or kryptonite that I like to call it.  Polians = LB, Grigson = OL, Ballard so far = WR.  If you suck at evaluating such positions, please rely on your Scouts for Saviors Sakes.

It's not about evaluating positions, I don't think he personally evaluates any positions (he'll watch tape and make his own opinions), he relies on his scouts for that ultimately. His is evaluating the worth of each position against one another. He isn't prioritizing WR over other positions. Which an argument can be made that if you don't have a solid foundation of a team (front 7 on D, O-line, QB) then WRs are pointless.  

 

He may also prioritize defense over offense first, as there is an argument for that as well.

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9 hours ago, BornHoosier said:

If someone tells me our win total minus said player is Zero, I'd tend to address said problem is all I'm saying.  No, the blame should not be on TY but I can assure you it rest on CB shoulders for having a practice squad position group.


Even Practice squad players catch balls if you have a competent QB that isn’t afraid to throw it to them. 

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We definitely need more elite talent at WR. Theres no question there. But this topic should be less about Hilton and more about the WR position. It almost sounds like you're upset with Hilton because the Colts lose when hes not in the game. 

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7 hours ago, shastamasta said:

 

 

 In Ballard’s case...the one-year WR flyer signings haven’t worked...and Funchess is the only one that was really due to injury (Aiken didn’t get hurt and Grant played 14 games)...but I would also argue that Funchess is not a very good player either (though at least he is more talented than his FA predecessors).

 

 I think the receiving crew was pretty good going into last season with Luck assumed to be the starter.

Hilton

Funchess

Campbell

Cain

Fountain

Pascal

Doyle

Ebron

Hines

Rogers

Cox

 

They had size in Ebron and Funchess

Speed in Hilton, Hines and Campbell

Possession in Doyle, Pascal and Rogers

 

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8 hours ago, shastamasta said:

I will say this...if we consider that Ballard has just been unlucky with WRs...then we have to concede that Grigs was unlucky with the OL.
 

Grigs signed a starting RT to a big contract...signed a starting G...and drafted a G in the 3rd round...all in his second season. Then the following year he drafted a G/T in the 2nd round. That should have been good enough to build a decent OL...but all of those players got hurt eventually and were gone within 2-3 years.

 

Yet...nearly everyone blames the OL issues from the Luck era on Grigs...both his approach and evaluation.

 

Ultimately...as usual...I think it’s a combination of things for both GMs (injuries, approach and evaluation). In Ballard’s case...the one-year WR flyer signings haven’t worked...and Funchess is the only one that was really due to injury (Aiken didn’t get hurt and Grant played 14 games)...but I would also argue that Funchess is not a very good player either (though at least he is more talented than his FA predecessors).


And last year was the first real draft investment into the position...after drafting mid Day 3 picks. 
 

Injuries haven’t helped...but we also can’t say that Ballard is good at WR evaluation either.

 

Fortunately, this is a very strong WR class. 

I think this is a fair way of looking at it. We should apply the same level of scrutiny to both GMs. After all, they are not judged by their intent, they are judged by their results. And Ballard's results at WR have not been good so far, whether through FA or the draft. P. Cambell can hopefully turn this around.

 

What stuck out to me in last year's draft: Similar to Grigson who had Xavier Rhodes available and selected B. Werner instead, Ballard had AJ Brown available and selected Ben Banagou.

 

Also, I'd like to add that the one guy (half-year signing) who did play well, D. Inman, was not re-signed until it was too late, which is questionable.

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Ballard says, this isnt ever going to be about one guy. And he backs that up every year. I think he really will put significant stock into WR this year. I am totally on board with the 3 first picks being WR TE WR. But I dont see him doubling down like that. 

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11 minutes ago, Flash7 said:

I think this is a fair way of looking at it. We should apply the same level of scrutiny to both GMs. After all, they are not judged by their intent, they are judged by their results. And Ballard's results at WR have not been good so far, whether through FA or the draft. P. Cambell can hopefully turn this around.

 

 

Yes and no.   In 2018 Luck threw for 4600 yards and 39 TD's.

The Colts had 6 players with 28+ receptions and 300+ yards.   Ballard added Funchess and Campbell.  Unfortunately he lost Luck.   I was happy with the receiving crew to start the season last year.

Hilton

Funchess

Campbell

Cain

Fountain

Pascal

Doyle

Ebron

Hines

Rogers

Cox

 

They had size in Ebron and Funchess

Speed in Hilton, Hines and Campbell

Possession in Doyle, Pascal and Rogers

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29 minutes ago, Myles said:

Yes and no.   In 2018 Luck threw for 4600 yards and 39 TD's.

The Colts had 6 players with 28+ receptions and 300+ yards.   Ballard added Funchess and Campbell.  Unfortunately he lost Luck.   I was happy with the receiving crew to start the season last year.

Hilton

Funchess

Campbell

Cain

Fountain

Pascal

Doyle

Ebron

Hines

Rogers

Cox

 

They had size in Ebron and Funchess

Speed in Hilton, Hines and Campbell

Possession in Doyle, Pascal and Rogers

I agree with the "Yes and No" simply because it's hard to parse out what is due to the QB play, and what is due to the receiving corps. Ideally, they go hand-in-hand.

 

We do know that in 2014, Luck threw for nearly 4,800 yards, 40 TDs with a whole other cast of receivers. Guys like T.Y., D. Moncrief, Lavon Brazill, Da'Rick Rogers, H. Nicks,  and Griff Whalen. I wouldn't consider that group of receivers to be very good, but Luck made it work.

 

image.png.eb99ff46ed051af22d8c400de4b23e62.png

 

As for the receiving corps to start last season, I suppose we see it differently. I was not enthusiastic about that group.

 

Hilton - Proven #1 WR

Funchess - Mixed Results (1 good year, and several average years)  I personally wasn't excited about Funchess. Some people go crazy for big bodied WRs. I don't care so much, as long as they can produce, like Marvin Harrison or T.Y.

Campbell - Great Potential but overall, an Unknown (rookie).

Cain - Unknown

Fountain - Unknown

Pascal - Average/Good

Doyle - Great, Reliable, Good Blocker

Ebron - Good receiving TE, TD machine, unreliable hands

Hines - Good 

Rogers - Below Average

Cox - Good Blocker

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13 minutes ago, Flash7 said:

I agree with the "Yes and No" simply because it's hard to parse out what is due to the QB play, and what is due to the receiving corps. Ideally, they go hand-in-hand.

 

We do know that in 2014, Luck threw for nearly 4,800 yards, 40 TDs with a whole other cast of receivers. Guys like T.Y., D. Moncrief, Lavon Brazill, Da'Rick Rogers, H. Nicks,  and Griff Whalen. I wouldn't consider that group of receivers to be very good, but Luck made it work.

 

image.png.eb99ff46ed051af22d8c400de4b23e62.png

 

As for the receiving corps to start last season, I suppose we see it differently. I was not enthusiastic about that group.

 

Hilton - Proven #1 WR

Funchess - Mixed Results (1 good year, and several average years)  I personally wasn't excited about Funchess. Some people go crazy for big bodied WRs. I don't care so much, as long as they can produce, like Marvin Harrison or T.Y.

Campbell - Great Potential but overall, an Unknown (rookie).

Cain - Unknown

Fountain - Unknown

Pascal - Average/Good

Doyle - Great, Reliable, Good Blocker

Ebron - Good receiving TE, TD machine, unreliable hands

Hines - Good 

Rogers - Below Average

Cox - Good Blocker

I should point out that I didn't think the receiving crew was great.   But I thought Ballard improved it in 2019 over the crew that allowed Luck to have such a good 2018.  Funchess wasn't totally proven, but he was an upgrade.   Campbell was ranked high out of college on many lists.   Some had him at #2.  Getting Doyle back was also promising.  

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I love TY and Chris Ballard, but this whole diamond in the rough receiving corps just hasn't cut it. Granted this years free agency WR class was a crap shoot we should've done more to try and get a quality wideout. Arizona got Deandre for essentially a bag of potato chips...I wouldn't be mad if we grabbed 2 receivers early in this draft class. It's not only a want, it's a NEED for this team. Nobody is afraid of a banged up TY, Marcus Johnson, Parris Campbell, Jack Doyle...

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