Nelson and Leonard 2nd contracts

[EastStreet]

31 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

I disagree with u on Leonsrd.  I think Leonard loves himself a lot, which is not a bad thing.  He continually has talked about being under rated and under appreciated by the masses.  What better way to legitimize your standing in the league then to reset the LB market?   Just my thoughts.  I say close to 20 million he will want.

IMO, he was under rated and slighted his rook year. The FO agreed. Doesn't mean he'll be a ball breaker during negotiation. The team has been very pro Leonard, and hopefully he is very pro team. We'll see. We never know until contract year, that's for sure. And if he is a ball breaker, I'm OK with playing hardball back. Just business.

 

And honestly, 20M would be #2 now, but likely won't be top 5 very soon. It's funny, the top 3 LBs rated by PFF are all huge bargains....

 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-top-101-players-from-the-2019-nfl-season

[Moosejawcolt]

21 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

284 tackles in two seasons. Those are the facts. 

So he is doing his job by everyone's opinion except for yours. 

It's amazing you think you know better than all of us and all of the NFL. 

You are just being stubborn and can't bring yourself to admit you are wrong. 

It's easy, I have done it as most of us have at one point or another. 

http://subscribers.footballguys.com/2006/06bramel_tampa2.php

[crazycolt1]

5 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

http://subscribers.footballguys.com/2006/06bramel_tampa2.php

https://www.si.com/nfl/2019/05/29/top-linebackers-ranking-kuechly-wagner-leonard-vander-esch-mosley-podcast

[Moosejawcolt]

2 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

https://www.si.com/nfl/2019/05/29/top-linebackers-ranking-kuechly-wagner-leonard-vander-esch-mosley-podcast

Who is Andy and Gary?? Plus anyone who ranks Vander Each as a top 4 linebacker loses all credibility. Thats frim 2019.

[Moosejawcolt]

4 hours ago, Fluke_33 said:

This thread is @Moosejawcolt against everyone.   reminds me of the following:

 

 

Now if Leonnard can hit like that coach, I woukd give him 20 million a year hahaha

[crazycolt1]

15 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Who is Andy and Gary?? Plus anyone who ranks Vander Each as a top 4 linebacker loses all credibility. Thats frim 2019.

Well that was last year so what's your point? Season 2020 hasn't been played yet. 

https://www.bing.com/search?q=best+linebackers+nfl+2019&FORM=QSRE1

I have more sites I can post. 

But it doesn't matter. You are too stubborn to admit you are wrong. https://athlonsports.com/nfl/nfl-linebacker-rankings

[Moosejawcolt]

7 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Well that was last year so what's your point? Season 2020 hasn't been played yet. 

https://www.bing.com/search?q=best+linebackers+nfl+2019&FORM=QSRE1

I have more sites I can post. 

But it doesn't matter. You are too stubborn to admit you are wrong. https://athlonsports.com/nfl/nfl-linebacker-rankings

My wife is actually the stubborn one.  She thinks I am a push over. Being serious.  We shall end it and I will admit I am wrong. Night

[Fluke_33]

4 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Now if Leonnard can hit like that coach, I woukd give him 20 million a year hahaha

What if he plays two ways?  Supposedly he was a great wideout in high school too. 

[Moosejawcolt]

1 minute ago, Fluke_33 said:

What if he plays two ways?  Supposedly he was a great wideout in high school too. 

Them he gets 40 mill.

[danlhart87]

On 3/31/2020 at 12:08 AM, Moosejawcolt said:

Do u think that Ballard let's either walk and/or test the market? Nelson and Leonard could ask for 20 plus. I, personally, would never sign a guard or WLB to a contract in  that amount.

I'm ok with letting Leonard walk unless we get him on a good deal but keep Nelson at all cost I'm thinking like 16 to 17m per

[ColtStrong2013]

12 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

So what is it that Leonard is great at? Please provide me with evidence. I am totally in agreement that he is a play maker. The ball seems to land in his hands and he makes plays at opportune times.  Is that worth 20 million, which I think he will ask for.

Yes.

Big time players make big time plays. And you pay big time players. Period. 
 

He’s the best linebacker this franchise will likely ever see. He will be top 5 backers in the league for as long as he wants to play, and consistently fine-tune his game. 

[csmopar]

18 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Patriots lack of loyalty as u define it has garnered them  6 rings. It is not that Belllichek is not loyal.  He puts a value on each positon and refuses to budge.  There is nothing wrong with the way he runs the club.  He runs it as a business and takes the emotion out of each decision he makes.  I have no problem with paying players.  I am just not sure I want to put tons of cap into the guard and WLB posiiton. Each is valuable,  however, I think it is easier to fill these positions in the draft with later round picks. 

yeah... we tried that approach and it got not 1 but 2 stud QBs hurt. and our running game couldnt squeeze out 100 yards a game for a decade or more. yeah, you pay for the trenches and QB, that's where it all starts. a top 5 guard, arguably the best guard in the league, dang right you pay him.

[indykmj]

Question for those advocating paying Leonard whatever it takes based 

on his numbers:

 

Assuming you're old enough to remember his tenure in Indy, were you in 

favor of paying (pre-injury) Danny Granger (great 'team leader', beloved by

the fans,  put up big stats on average teams)  whatever it took to resign him ?  

[jvan1973]

10 minutes ago, indykmj said:

Question for those advocating paying Leonard whatever it takes based 

on his numbers:

 

Assuming you're old enough to remember his tenure in Indy, were you in 

favor of paying (pre-injury) Danny Granger (great 'team leader', beloved by

the fans,  put up big stats on average teams)  whatever it took to resign him ?  

Granger was a very good player,   never the same after the knee injury.    Probably the biggest reason he was traded

[crazycolt1]

6 minutes ago, indykmj said:

Question for those advocating paying Leonard whatever it takes based 

on his numbers:

 

Assuming you're old enough to remember his tenure in Indy, were you in 

favor of paying (pre-injury) Danny Granger (great 'team leader', beloved by

the fans,  put up big stats on average teams)  whatever it took to resign him ?  

Apples and oranges.

If a player plays well enough to be tops in the league he has earned whatever contract the system will pay. 

The NFL does not get paid for the teams to go over the cap. 

The NBA has a so called cap but then gets paid by the teams who go over the cap. 

The Pacers are a team that does not pay the NBA for big name players. 

The Pacers depend on having a star player to draw the fans in the arena. That was Grangers role at the time. 

 

[ColtStrong2013]

14 minutes ago, indykmj said:

Question for those advocating paying Leonard whatever it takes based 

on his numbers:

 

Assuming you're old enough to remember his tenure in Indy, were you in 

favor of paying (pre-injury) Danny Granger (great 'team leader', beloved by

the fans,  put up big stats on average teams)  whatever it took to resign him ?  

Apples and oranges. 

1 minute ago, crazycolt1 said:

Apples and oranges

Jesus. Can I not have a thought for myself? 

Just now, ColtStrong2013 said:

Apples and oranges. 

 

[aaron11]

11 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

Well that was last year so what's your point? Season 2020 hasn't been played yet. 

https://www.bing.com/search?q=best+linebackers+nfl+2019&FORM=QSRE1

I have more sites I can post. 

But it doesn't matter. You are too stubborn to admit you are wrong. https://athlonsports.com/nfl/nfl-linebacker-rankings

there have not been many will linebackers that earned big contracts in the league.  hes going to reset the market but might be the only one in that pay grade at the same time

[csmopar]

42 minutes ago, indykmj said:

Question for those advocating paying Leonard whatever it takes based 

on his numbers:

 

Assuming you're old enough to remember his tenure in Indy, were you in 

favor of paying (pre-injury) Danny Granger (great 'team leader', beloved by

the fans,  put up big stats on average teams)  whatever it took to resign him ?  

no, but I was more than willing to pay whatever it took to keep Reggie Miller, Mark Jackson, Rick Smits, the Davis boys, Chris Mullins, etc.

[runthepost]

We need more talent. Complains about paying to keep top tier talent

[Valpo2004]

14 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

I disagree with u on Leonsrd.  I think Leonard loves himself a lot, which is not a bad thing.  He continually has talked about being under rated and under appreciated by the masses.  What better way to legitimize your standing in the league then to reset the LB market?   Just my thoughts.  I say close to 20 million he will want.

 

His market value doesn't command that.  The 20 Million+ guys are all edge rushers who are the most important players on defense.  

 

Leonard is a 4-3 Outside LB  If you narrow the contracts down to 4-3 OLB's the market tops out at 13.5.

 

He can certainly set the market here but let's be honest he's not in a high value position on defense.  When all is said and done there is a good chance that Turay gets paid more than Leonard even though Turay isn't a pro-bowler.  

[Myles]

1 hour ago, indykmj said:

Question for those advocating paying Leonard whatever it takes based 

on his numbers:

 

Assuming you're old enough to remember his tenure in Indy, were you in 

favor of paying (pre-injury) Danny Granger (great 'team leader', beloved by

the fans,  put up big stats on average teams)  whatever it took to resign him ?  

Not really the same.  Leonard was an All Pro meaning one of the very best in the league.   Danny was pretty great for a few years and the Pacers did pay him very well.   He was never thought of as one of the 2-3 best in the league, at least I don't remember it that way.  

[indykmj]

21 minutes ago, runthepost said:

We need more talent. Complains about paying to keep top tier talent

 

For the record, I have no problem paying BIG $$$ to Top Tier talent.....

provided it's at the right positions (QB, DE/Edge, WR, probably L-OT,

in the Colts' case, 3-tech DT and to a lesser degree (normally a premium

spot, but not in the Colts system), CB.

 

Just my take.  

[ztboiler]

Have to let it all play out.  Most great, even franchise transforming players don’t get to finish their careers with the team that drafted them.

 

In the case of Leonard and Nelson...something would have to dramatically change about the current trajectory for them to not get generous second contracts that make them the highest paid at their positions.

 

Leonards contract is trickier and Luke Kuechly is instructive.  It’s less likely that Leonard makes it to the end of his second contract by nature of the position he plays and his tweener build for that position.  Very little chance that Leonard can play at his current level of efficacy beyond age 30, just like a RB.  Leonard’s performance delta is highly dependent on a razor thin physical margin that he won’t be able to maintain all the way through a 5 year second contract.  He’s a 6-8 year player like a quality RB is.

 

[crazycolt1]

2 hours ago, ColtStrong2013 said:

Apples and oranges. 

Jesus. Can I not have a thought for myself? 

 

I don't know, can you?

Whenever you post a comment in a forum it gets responses. Therefor, you open yourself up for those comments. 

Respectfully,  if you want a thought for yourself then maybe think about it before making it open to a forum? 

 

[indykmj]

29 minutes ago, ztboiler said:

Have to let it all play out.  Most great, even franchise transforming players don’t get to finish their careers with the team that drafted them.

 

In the case of Leonard and Nelson...something would have to dramatically change about the current trajectory for them to not get generous second contracts that make them the highest paid at their positions.

 

Leonards contract is trickier and Luke Kuechly is instructive.  It’s less likely that Leonard makes it to the end of his second contract by nature of the position he plays and his tweener build for that position.  Very little chance that Leonard can play at his current level of efficacy beyond age 30, just like a RB.  Leonard’s performance delta is highly dependent on a razor thin physical margin that he won’t be able to maintain all the way through a 5 year second contract.  He’s a 6-8 year player like a quality RB is.

 

 

   Extremely well put post. Bravo...

 

[Rackeen305]

7 hours ago, runthepost said:

We need more talent. Complains about paying to keep top tier talent

Screw Rivers, JB, and Chad Kelley. Where's Curtis painter when you need em'. He'll stick it to Mahomes and Chiefs!

[Rackeen305]

On 3/31/2020 at 2:52 AM, Moosejawcolt said:

No I wouldn't pay 20 million for a guard.  I don't care if he is a future shop of f amer or not. Plus,  I think with the way they build this cover 2 zone style D, it is easier to replace the WLB position.  

Ok. But don't expect much. When was the last time the Colts had this kind of talent? Then you want to let them walk not because of performance (All Pros as rookies), but because you want to out smart the system? 

 

Just focus on building this team the right way. We don't have the consistent talent generating organization to let the best two players just walk.

[Four2itus]

Just freaking lol. 

 

Have weak LB core....make unpopular pick and grab an all-pro....

 

You know what doesn't follow this?

 

.....cut him loose when his first contract is up. 

 

[jvan1973]

On 3/31/2020 at 6:59 PM, Moosejawcolt said:

I am not cutting him down.  People want to say he is elite.  I don't think he is.  That is not cutting him down.  He will want 20 mill and he is not close to deserving that figure.

Once again you find yourself on this island alone.    

[Moosejawcolt]

1 hour ago, jvan1973 said:

Once again you find yourself on this island alone.    

Yea and it ain't called fantasy island.

[Moosejawcolt]

2 hours ago, Rackeen305 said:

Ok. But don't expect much. When was the last time the Colts had this kind of talent? Then you want to let them walk not because of performance (All Pros as rookies), but because you want to out smart the system? 

 

Just focus on building this team the right way. We don't have the consistent talent generating organization to let the best two players just walk.

There r other options then letting them walk.  Find out what their contract demand and then make decsion bout their future.

[Moosejawcolt]

2 hours ago, Rackeen305 said:

Ok. But don't expect much. When was the last time the Colts had this kind of talent? Then you want to let them walk not because of performance (All Pros as rookies), but because you want to out smart the system? 

 

Just focus on building this team the right way. We don't have the consistent talent generating organization to let the best two players just walk.

K. I will ask u a question. What is the most annually u would pay for Nelson and Leonard??

[jvan1973]

26 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Yea and it ain't called fantasy island.

Yeah,   it really is

[jvan1973]

27 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

There r other options then letting them walk.  Find out what their contract demand and then make decsion bout their future.

Exactly.   You proclaim to know what they will command in terms of a contract.   Then you post this.   

[Moosejawcolt]

26 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

Exactly.   You proclaim to know what they will command in terms of a contract.   Then you post this.   

So what is the most,annually, you would give to Nelson and Leonard?

 

[Moosejawcolt]

54 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

Exactly.   You proclaim to know what they will command in terms of a contract.   Then you post this.   

U missed my point. There r other options to letting them walk such as a trade....franchise tag.

[jvan1973]

8 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

U missed my point. There r other options to letting them walk such as a trade....franchise tag.

Why would you franchise such a non worthy player?

[ColtStrong2013]

11 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

I don't know, can you?

Whenever you post a comment in a forum it gets responses. Therefor, you open yourself up for those comments. 

Respectfully,  if you want a thought for yourself then maybe think about it before making it open to a forum? 

 

dude... I was sarcastically saying that because I posted apples and oranges to the comment about Danny Granger, at the exact same time as you posted “apples and oranges” to the same comment. We are on the same page my guy. I was making a funny. 

[Moosejawcolt]

2 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

Why would you franchise such a non worthy player?

K....I will tap out. Night

[crazycolt1]

3 hours ago, ColtStrong2013 said:

dude... I was sarcastically saying that because I posted apples and oranges to the comment about Danny Granger, at the exact same time as you posted “apples and oranges” to the same comment. We are on the same page my guy. I was making a funny. 

Fair enough. But keep in mind you have to be clear on a sarcastic comment in this room.