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Moosejawcolt

Nelson and Leonard 2nd contracts

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30 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

So u think DL is an elite LB in stopping the run and in pass coverage??

Yes...  and most NFL people do too.

 

How would you judge him? 

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4 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Mosley signed last year to a massive 5 year 85 million dollar contract. Average salary 17 million.  Leonard will want to reset the market as will his agent.  He will not b signing a 2nd contract for 15 million a year.

So you honestly think you know what Ballard will or wont do?

If Leonard earns that contract, he will get it. 

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Just now, NewColtsFan said:

Yes...  and most NFL people do too.

 

How would you judge him? 

He is an interesting player.  I realize he comes up with big plays. That being said.  I do not think he is an elite linebacker in run support and pass coverage

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1 minute ago, Moosejawcolt said:

He is an interesting player.  I realize he comes up with big plays. That being said.  I do not think he is an elite linebacker in run support and pass coverage

Sorry, I think you are a poor judge of what a NFL pro bowl player is. 

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1 minute ago, crazycolt1 said:

So you honestly think you know what Ballard will or wont do?

If Leonard earns that contract, he will get it. 

I didnt say that.  I just referenced Mosley's contract at 17 million.  Leonard will be coming to the table with all pro selections and will not be settling for 15 million.  It will b up to Ballard to * whether he is worth north of 17 million a year. For all we know, Leonard may ask for 20 million a year and lots of guaranteed money.   

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2 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Sorry, I think you are a poor judge of what a NFL pro bowl player is. 

Listen.  I never said that Leonard is not a pro bowl player.  I just think he is over rated.  I think Bobby, can't spell his name, has similar skill set but may have better pass coverage skills.  Slide him into Leonard's positon if he asks for the moon and mayb Speed will b up to speed, no pun intended, and fill Bobby's position.

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2 games less than 2 seasons of D. Leonard

7 INT's

6 forced fumbles

12 sacks

284 tackles

19 tackles for loss

 

Pay the man.

 

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31 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

I just think he is over rated. 

Interesting. 

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1 hour ago, Moosejawcolt said:

I have always believed that DL is over rated. A great player maker but not a great overall player.

 

military_hat_confused_meme1.jpg

 

Is this a joke?  Can you back this up with some evidence, please?

 

Isn't a great player a player that makes plays?

 

How in the heck is a "great play maker" not a "great player"?  Aren't they one in the same?  :scratch:

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26 minutes ago, Four2itus said:

Interesting. 

I am not saying I don't like DL.  Everyone says watch Ballard.  I have watched Ballard's drafts and I mayb off base, but based on his drafting, he believes he can get LB talent in the later rounds.  To play lb in this system does not demand a player b in the Patrick Willis mold. Those type of players r top 10 picks. Lbs that play this system are basically safeties. The players in that mold can b found in later rounds.  If DL wants  big money,  I would let him walk. When he drafted Nelson, he passed on a talent like Roquan Smith.  How do u think he would have played in this system with all his athletic traits? All I am trying to say is that I believe lbs that fit this system can b found in later rounds. It's not like u r trying to replace Patrick Willis.  That demands a top 5 pick. Just my 2 cents

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5 minutes ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

military_hat_confused_meme1.jpg

 

Is this a joke?  Can you back this up with some evidence, please?

 

Isn't a great player a player that makes plays?

 

How in the heck is a "great play maker" not a "great player"?  Aren't they one in the same?  :scratch:

Imagine a pass rusher getting 15 sacks a year and strips some balls but the rb routinely runs right thru him. He could b viewed as a play maker but not a great player

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5 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Imagine a pass rusher getting 15 sacks a year and strips some balls but the rb routinely runs right thru him. He could b viewed as a play maker but not a great player

 

That's exactly what Freeney and Mathis were for the Colts, and they were both "great play makers" AND "great players".  Both probably end up in the HoF.

 

Are you trying to say that since Peyton Manning didn't have the rushing stats of Michael Vick or Cam Newton that he wasn't a "great player", even though he was a "great play maker" in the passing game?  :scratch:

 

I'm sorry, but I don't think your point makes any sense.  I think you're wrong.  If a player is making plays in their assigned role, then they are a great player.

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9 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

I am not saying I don't like DL.  Everyone says watch Ballard.  I have watched Ballard's drafts and I mayb off base, but based on his drafting, he believes he can get LB talent in the later rounds.  To play lb in this system does not demand a player b in the Patrick Willis mold. Those type of players r top 10 picks. Lbs that play this system are basically safeties. The players in that mold can b found in later rounds.  If DL wants  big money,  I would let him walk. When he drafted Nelson, he passed on a talent like Roquan Smith.  How do u think he would have played in this system with all his athletic traits? All I am trying to say is that I believe lbs that fit this system can b found in later rounds. It's not like u r trying to replace Patrick Willis.  That demands a top 5 pick. Just my 2 cents

Ballard has used a 2, 3, and 5 for his starters.     And a 5 and 7, 7 for his backups.    That doesn’t mean he believes he can get LB talent in the later round.   He’s drafting backups in the later rounds. 
 

Nit sure there’s a team in the NFL right now that would take Smith over Nelson if given the choice.  And I love Smith.  But Nelson is the easy. House here.  Not even close. 

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11 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Imagine a pass rusher getting 15 sacks a year and strips some balls but the rb routinely runs right thru him. He could b viewed as a play maker but not a great player

Yep,   15 sacks a year is a great player

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If they both continue to progress, there's no doubt they'll be the best at their positions by then and it may not be close (seeing as how they are already in the top echelon).  Pay them as such. 

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45 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Imagine a pass rusher getting 15 sacks a year and strips some balls but the rb routinely runs right thru him. He could b viewed as a play maker but not a great player


imagine Darius Leonard on a defense with more playmakers added so he doesn’t feel like he has to do everything... That’s Darius Leonard this season, and he will elevate his game in year 3 to another dimension, IMO. 

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2 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

I agree with what u r saying.  I doubt we would be able to draft a player of QN's quality. but we could fill his position with a quality player.  I have always believed that DL is over rated. A great player maker but not a great overall player.  And yes, I expect to get hammered for my opinion on DL. Watch the tape as he is a poor run defender and has lapses in coverage. If I am paying 20 million, he better b elite in every facet of the game.  The money we coukd save could b spend on more positions on this team.

What the hell is a great playmaker but not a great player?  Lapses in coverage.... A olb that just had five picks seems like he's in the right place in coverage at the right time and awful lot to me ...

 

Look, I get that you want consistency in every player on the team.  But if everyone plays it conservative and never trusts their instincts, you don't get many big plays... Every team needs a few players that can take over on their talent and insticts a few times a game.  I'll take wherever Darius Leonard is lacking in whatever you want to call it, and line him up to start every Sunday.  So would almost every NFL Head Coach....

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12 minutes ago, ColtStrong2013 said:


imagine Darius Leonard on a defense with more playmakers added so he doesn’t feel like he has to do everything... That’s Darius Leonard this season, and he will elevate his game in year 3 to another dimension, IMO. 


now imagine Big Q with a veteran qb that can read defenses and gets rid of the ball faster than all but 4 players in the league... He too is being put in a better spot this season. They both will be All-Pro and dominant this year... book it

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52 minutes ago, Fluke_33 said:

This thread is @Moosejawcolt against everyone.   reminds me of the following:

 

 

 

It's not a battle that can be won...but I respect the conviction.

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3 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

I agree with what u r saying.  I doubt we would be able to draft a player of QN's quality. but we could fill his position with a quality player.  I have always believed that DL is over rated. A great player maker but not a great overall player.  And yes, I expect to get hammered for my opinion on DL. Watch the tape as he is a poor run defender and has lapses in coverage. If I am paying 20 million, he better b elite in every facet of the game.  The money we coukd save could b spend on more positions on this team.

So based on what you are saying, Philip Rivers met this criteria?

And he's getting over $20 million that you mentioned ($25Ms). 

 

i would agree with you had we not signed Rivers, and utilize 25Ms on a player or number of players to splurge on. Even Clowney.

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They will be precedent-setting deals...no doubt...and should necessitate a QB on a rookie deal. 

 

Nelson will get the biggest G contract in history...he won't even have to ask. But I do wonder if Ballard holds until after his 4th season to get that done...so he can stagger some of these deals a bit. Plus, he has the franchise tag to use. 

 

Leonard will likely be different. I think he will want his extension next offseason...understandably so. I could even see him as a potential holdout. Nothing against Leonard...I just think he has that mindset. If we recall...he didn't sign his rookie deal until it was nearly August...likely due to language in the contract. I also think Buckner's deal will be a starting point for him...and I don't see any type of hometown discount for the Colts.   


Ultimately, Ballard gets them both done.

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1 hour ago, ColtStrong2013 said:


imagine Darius Leonard on a defense with more playmakers added so he doesn’t feel like he has to do everything... That’s Darius Leonard this season, and he will elevate his game in year 3 to another dimension, IMO. 

Feel like he has to do everything?  How bout stopping the run when a back gets to the 2nd level.  Thats his job

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2 hours ago, Fluke_33 said:

This thread is @Moosejawcolt against everyone.   reminds me of the following:

 

 

Thanks..that was hillarious.  I've got an excellent sense of humour

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2 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

Yep,   15 sacks a year is a great player

I think u missed my point.  One can b great atone thing and average at another. Does that make him a great player?

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1 minute ago, Moosejawcolt said:

I think u missed my point.  One can b great atone thing and average at another. Does that make him a great player?

Depends. Is the thing he’s great at his primary job for the team? If so then I’d say yes. 

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1 hour ago, Rackeen305 said:

So based on what you are saying, Philip Rivers met this criteria?

And he's getting over $20 million that you mentioned ($25Ms). 

 

i would agree with you had we not signed Rivers, and utilize 25Ms on a player or number of players to splurge on. Even Clowney.

Yup

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1 minute ago, RollerColt said:

Depends. Is the thing he’s great at his primary job for the team? If so then I’d say 

So what is it that Leonard is great at? Please provide me with evidence. I am totally in agreement that he is a play maker. The ball seems to land in his hands and he makes plays at opportune times.  Is that worth 20 million, which I think he will ask for.

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5 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

So what is it that Leonard is great at? Please provide me with evidence. I am totally in agreement that he is a play maker. The ball seems to land in his hands and he makes plays at opportune times.  Is that worth 20 million, which I think he will ask for.

Oh I will agree with you that he’s not worth 20 mill. I think you just stated what he’s good at: making plays. 

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12 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

So what is it that Leonard is great at? Please provide me with evidence. I am totally in agreement that he is a play maker. The ball seems to land in his hands and he makes plays at opportune times.  Is that worth 20 million, which I think he will ask for.

 

3 hours ago, Myles said:

2 games less than 2 seasons of D. Leonard

7 INT's

6 forced fumbles

12 sacks

284 tackles

19 tackles for loss

 

Pay the man.

 

Is this evidence enough for you?

You have been cutting down a player that is pro bowl caliber just because you won't admit you are wrong. 

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14 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

What you don't seem to understand is replacing the position is not the same as replacing the men. 

Both Big Q and Maniac are the leaders of this team and you can't put a price tag on what they mean to this team. 

One of the main reasons I have been a Colt fan is Irsay treats his people like family and treats them as such. Irsay is not afraid of paying his players. He did it with Manning, Edge, Harrison and even TY at the time. He has now agreed to the Buckner deal.

It may come down to the money for you but I am damn glad Irsay don't run this team like the Patriots where loyalty means zero. 

 

  

 

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  Unless the cap goes up to $300 mil, there is ZERO about chance I'd pay

  either of them 20 mil per season.

 

  Neither OG or off the ball LB are high value positions.

 

  

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2 minutes ago, RollerColt said:

Oh I will agree with you that he’s not worth 20 mill. I think you just stated what he’s good at: making plays. 

 

2 hours ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

That's exactly what Freeney and Mathis were for the Colts, and they were both "great play makers" AND "great players".  Both probably end up in the HoF.

 

Are you trying to say that since Peyton Manning didn't have the rushing stats of Michael Vick or Cam Newton that he wasn't a "great player", even though he was a "great play maker" in the passing game?  :scratch:

 

I'm sorry, but I don't think your point makes any sense.  I think you're wrong.  If a player is making plays in their assigned role, then they are a great player.

U r missing my point.  Yes Freeney and Mathis' role were to fly up the field and sack the qb.  That is why they were susceptible to being gashed on running plays. If they happended to stop the the rb the way to the qb.....bonus.   That was the system and that's what they were asked to do.  Leonard is asked to do multiple roles in this D. He is a great blitzer, I just don't see him as elite in run stopping and pass coverage.  Don't go by tackling #'s.  Any WLBs tackling stats in this D are always very high.  I am not saying he is not a very good player......I just think come contract time, he could b replaced if he is asking for 20 million a year.  Prepare yourself for it because I think that is what he will ask do.  

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6 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

 

Is this evidence enough for you?

You have been cutting down a player that is pro bowl caliber just because you won't admit you are wrong. 

I am not cutting him down.  People want to say he is elite.  I don't think he is.  That is not cutting him down.  He will want 20 mill and he is not close to deserving that figure.

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Purely my opinion, but......

 

You pay Q whatever. If you need to make him top 3, make him top 3. He's the anchor on the left, and allows you flexibility, and will be the anchor for many years to come. He'll also help mask deficiencies at LT should we not have AC after a couple years.

 

Leonard, I'd pay somewhere 6th to 10th. I doubt he pays hardball, and I doubt we do either. I hope he's willing to be somewhat team friendly in exchange for higher guarantees. LB is a bit devalued in the league, and I'm sure he knows that. On the other hand, WILL is key to our D just like 3T, DE, CB, and slot. 

 

 

PFF ranked Nelson as the 11th best overall player in the NFL. Not 11th best OL, 11th best regardless of position. And only 2 OL ahead of him, and I could argue Q is better.

Quote

 

11. G QUENTON NELSON, INDIANAPOLIS COLTS

The one offensive lineman who brings everybody together, Quenton Nelson is a force in all areas of the game and a real tone-setter for the Colts' offensive line, as intangible as that is. On a more tangible level, he didn't surrender a sack all season despite blocking for a quarterback who makes that tougher than others do, and he was the second-best run-blocking guard in the NFL, one of just two to surpass a PFF grade of 90.0 in that area. Overall, Nelson ran Brandon Brooks close for the best-grade among guards, ending the year at 91.2 overall from over 1,000 snaps of action.

 

 

 

PFF ranked Leonard the 100th overall, and IIRC, the 7th best LB

Quote

 

100. LB DARIUS LEONARD, INDIANAPOLIS COLTS

Darius Leonard opens his NFL career with back-to-back appearances on the PFF Top 101, backing up his remarkable rookie season with another good year, albeit a slightly lower overall PFF grade. Leonard had five interceptions this season and allowed a passer rating under 80.0 when targeted, around 25 points lower than the average passer rating when targeting linebackers at the NFL level. He proved that his rookie season was no fluke with an excellent sophomore year.

 

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Purely my opinion, but......

 

You pay Q whatever. If you need to make him top 3, make him top 3. He's the anchor on the left, and allows you flexibility, and will be the anchor for many years to come. He'll also help mask deficiencies at LT should we not have AC after a couple years.

 

Leonard, I'd pay somewhere 6th to 10th. I doubt he pays hardball, and I doubt we do either. I hope he's willing to be somewhat team friendly in exchange for higher guarantees. LB is a bit devalued in the league, and I'm sure he knows that. On the other hand, WILL is key to our D just like 3T, DE, CB, and slot. 

 

 

PFF ranked Nelson as the 11th best overall player in the NFL. Not 11th best OL, 11th best regardless of position. And only 2 OL ahead of him, and I could argue Q is better.

 

 

PFF ranked Leonard the 100th overall, and IIRC, the 7th best LB

 

 

 

I disagree with u on Leonsrd.  I think Leonard loves himself a lot, which is not a bad thing.  He continually has talked about being under rated and under appreciated by the masses.  What better way to legitimize your standing in the league then to reset the LB market?   Just my thoughts.  I say close to 20 million he will want.

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2 hours ago, ColtStrong2013 said:


imagine Darius Leonard on a defense with more playmakers added so he doesn’t feel like he has to do everything... That’s Darius Leonard this season, and he will elevate his game in year 3 to another dimension, IMO. 

Well since he is already the best in the game......the only level he could ascend to is God like

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17 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

I disagree with u on Leonsrd.  I think Leonard loves himself a lot, which is not a bad thing.  He continually has talked about being under rated and under appreciated by the masses.  What better way to legitimize your standing in the league then to reset the LB market?   Just my thoughts.  I say close to 20 million he will want.

Well he was being under rated and under appreciated. 

He should have been voted to the pro bowl his rookie season.

He was voted defensive rookie player of the year. He was leading the league in tackles and did deserve to go to the pro bowl.

You may not think he is elite but those who are the most knowledgeable people in the NFL does. 

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8 hours ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

I think the Luck retirement opened Ballards' eyes that he has to treat each season like it might be his last.  He can plan for the future, but he has to focus on winning NOW.

i wish he had always been like that, my only complaint about ballard.  after 2017 i got the feeling luck would not play much longer

 

they were pretty conservative going into what would be his final season when they had a lot of money

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1 hour ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Feel like he has to do everything?  How bout stopping the run when a back gets to the 2nd level.  Thats his job

284 tackles in two seasons. Those are the facts. 

So he is doing his job by everyone's opinion except for yours. 

It's amazing you think you know better than all of us and all of the NFL. 

You are just being stubborn and can't bring yourself to admit you are wrong. 

It's easy, I have done it as most of us have at one point or another. 

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