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Moosejawcolt

Nelson and Leonard 2nd contracts

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Do u think that Ballard let's either walk and/or test the market? Nelson and Leonard could ask for 20 plus. I, personally, would never sign a guard or WLB to a contract in  that amount.

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2 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Do u think that Ballard let's either walk and/or test the market? Nelson and Leonard could ask for 20 plus. I, personally, would never sign a guard or WLB to a contract in  that amount.


I don’t think Nelson ever gets the chance but I could see Leonard getting away after a franchise tag in the future. We could see him play the next two years and then get tagged for his 27 year old season, leave in his 28 year old season. This all assuming he doesn’t hold out in 2021 without a new contract (entirely possible). 

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1 minute ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Do u think that Ballard let's either walk and/or test the market? Nelson and Leonard could ask for 20 plus. I, personally, would never sign a guard or WLB to a contract in  that amount.

So you wouldn't sign the anchor of a top 5 running team in the league to what he would be worth? 

Then you add you wouldn't resign our pro bowl defensive team MVP player either?

I sure am glad you are not the Colts GM. 

 

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2 minutes ago, The Peytonator said:


I don’t think Nelson ever gets the chance but I could see Leonard getting away after a franchise tag in the future. We could see him play the next two years and then get tagged for his 27 year old season, leave in his 28 year old season. This all assuming he doesn’t hold out in 2021 without a new contract (entirely possible). 

Good post.   These are fair questions.   Looked over at Spotrac, a site that offers tons of financial information.

 

First,  I think Nelson will be the easiest signing.   I’ll explain why....   the rankings show that the top guard makes $15 mill.  (Zack Martin) The next two make just under $14.8.   After that, the numbers drop between a few hundred thousand and roughly one million.  

 

In other words, very incremental.  so we could open with an offer of 5/80 (16 per) or even 5/85 (17 per) and show our seriousness.  We’ve offered a good bump.  Yes, he could ask for 5/100, but I don’t think it’s likely that Q asks for $5 mill a year MORE than the current top guard.   Nelson is from Indiana, his parents are here.  He’s got lots of reasons to compromise and still be the highest paid guard. 
 

It’s Leonard where I think things get interesting and a bit risky.  Mack is tops at $26 and change.  Miller is next at $25 and change.  Then a drop off to Chandler Jones at $21 plus.  After that, the numbers drop considerably into the teens.   So clearly Darius is looking at at least high teens and probably at least $20 mill per.  I believe Ballard has said WOLB is the most important LB spot.  So I don’t see him Nickle and Dime-ing  Leonard.  So I’d expect we offer roughly 5/100.   That would make Darius a top-5 paid OLB, but not the top-2. 
 

We’re not there yet, time wise, but it’s coming.  And that timeline will get here sooner than we all expect. 
 

Good post. 

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26 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Do u think that Ballard let's either walk and/or test the market? Nelson and Leonard could ask for 20 plus. I, personally, would never sign a guard or WLB to a contract in  that amount.

This is a very good post.   Apologies, I accidentally responded to The Peytonater and not you.  I meant to respond to you.   So please read my other post and consider it my response to you.   Again, good post.   Good discussion. 

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Nelson 5 year 80 mil 50 G 

 

That would make him the highest paid G

 

Leonard 5 year 105 mil 55 G

 

Not Miller or Mack money, but still top 5

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1 hour ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Do u think that Ballard let's either walk and/or test the market? Nelson and Leonard could ask for 20 plus. I, personally, would never sign a guard or WLB to a contract in  that amount.

 

Ballard said from day 1 that he'd be spending the cap wisely in FA so that he could retain his core players after their rookie contracts.  Not only does Ballard value good play on the field, but he loves to have leaders in the locker room -- Q and Maniac are tremendous leaders after just 2 seasons in the league.  I doubt he lets either walk.

 

41 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

Good post.   These are fair questions.   Looked over at Spotrac, a site that offers tons of financial information.

 

First,  I think Nelson will be the easiest signing.   I’ll explain why....   the rankings show that the top guard makes $15 mill.  (Zack Martin) The next two make just under $14.8.   After that, the numbers drop between a few hundred thousand and roughly one million.  

 

In other words, very incremental.  so we could open with an offer of 5/80 (16 per) or even 5/85 (17 per) and show our seriousness.  We’ve offered a good bump.  Yes, he could ask for 5/100, but I don’t think it’s likely that Q asks for $5 mill a year MORE than the current top guard.   Nelson is from Indiana, his parents are here.  He’s got lots of reasons to compromise and still be the highest paid guard. 
 

It’s Leonard where I think things get interesting and a bit risky.  Mack is tops at $26 and change.  Miller is next at $25 and change.  Then a drop off to Chandler Jones at $21 plus.  After that, the numbers drop considerably into the teens.   So clearly Darius is looking at at least high teens and probably at least $20 mill per.  I believe Ballard has said WOLB is the most important LB spot.  So I don’t see him Nickle and Dime-ing  Leonard.  So I’d expect we offer roughly 5/100.   That would make Darius a top-5 paid OLB, but not the top-2. 
 

We’re not there yet, time wise, but it’s coming.  And that timeline will get here sooner than we all expect. 
 

Good post. 

 

 

Q is from Homdel, NJ (Jersey Shore Conference high school -- he played football and basketball at Red Bank Catholic HS -- see video of him benching 225 lbs 26 times while still in HS https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2070502-2014-notre-dame-recruit-quenton-nelson-out-benches-top-nfl-rookies).  His aunt lived across the street from my parents until just a few months ago.  He did go to ND, but he's a Jersey boy initially, and I believe his parents still live there along with his brothers.  

 

Ballard's kept us in good salary cap shape.  Plus, the salary cap typically goes up every year.  I highly doubt he's going to let either of these guys walk.  They're too good of leaders and too good of football players to let go (if they stay healthy).  As I noted earlier, Ballard's said since day 1 he wants to build this team primarily through drafting and retaining core players.  Plus, both guys seem to really like being leaders of this team.

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These are exactly the kind of guys Ballard has talked about drafting and keeping for years.  These are guys he means when he says things like “bills come due”

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15 minutes ago, CurBeatElite said:

 

Ballard said from day 1 that he'd be spending the cap wisely in FA so that he could retain his core players after their rookie contracts.  Not only does Ballard value good play on the field, but he loves to have leaders in the locker room -- Q and Maniac are tremendous leaders after just 2 seasons in the league.  I doubt he lets either walk.

 

 

 

Q is from Homdel, NJ (Jersey Shore Conference high school -- he played football and basketball at Red Bank Catholic HS -- see video of him benching 225 lbs 26 times while still in HS https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2070502-2014-notre-dame-recruit-quenton-nelson-out-benches-top-nfl-rookies).  His aunt lived across the street from my parents until just a few months ago.  He did go to ND, but he's a Jersey boy initially, and I believe his parents still live there along with his brothers.  

 

Ballard's kept us in good salary cap shape.  Plus, the salary cap typically goes up every year.  I highly doubt he's going to let either of these guys walk.  They're too good of leaders and too good of football players to let go (if they stay healthy).  As I noted earlier, Ballard's said since day 1 he wants to build this team primarily through drafting and retaining core players.  Plus, both guys seem to really like being leaders of this team.

The info about Q came from Q when we drafted him.   He said he wanted to be drafted by the Colts.   He said his i I stents live in Indiana and part of the reason he wanted to be a Colt is so his intents could easily come and see him play.   
 

If I’m wrong, I’m wrong, but the info from the link is when he was a freshman at Notre Dame.  Long time ago.  I appreciate that it corrects my comment that Q comes from Indiana.  So I stand corrected on that.  Thanks. 

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1 hour ago, crazycolt1 said:

So you wouldn't sign the anchor of a top 5 running team in the league to what he would be worth? 

Then you add you wouldn't resign our pro bowl defensive team MVP player either?

I sure am glad you are not the Colts GM. 

 

No I wouldn't pay 20 million for a guard.  I don't care if he is a future shop of f amer or not. Plus,  I think with the way they build this cover 2 zone style D, it is easier to replace the WLB position.  

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1 hour ago, Moosejawcolt said:

No I wouldn't pay 20 million for a guard.  I don't care if he is a future shop of f amer or not. Plus,  I think with the way they build this cover 2 zone style D, it is easier to replace the WLB position.  

What you don't seem to understand is replacing the position is not the same as replacing the men. 

Both Big Q and Maniac are the leaders of this team and you can't put a price tag on what they mean to this team. 

One of the main reasons I have been a Colt fan is Irsay treats his people like family and treats them as such. Irsay is not afraid of paying his players. He did it with Manning, Edge, Harrison and even TY at the time. He has now agreed to the Buckner deal.

It may come down to the money for you but I am damn glad Irsay don't run this team like the Patriots where loyalty means zero. 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

No I wouldn't pay 20 million for a guard.  I don't care if he is a future shop of f amer or not. Plus,  I think with the way they build this cover 2 zone style D, it is easier to replace the WLB position.  

I often say on this forum that I'm glad fans do not run the team, thanks for once again reminding me why I say that.

 

Kind of hard to build a team through the draft when the team doesn't resign those building block players.

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There's a reason why CB's recent FA signings are all short term deals.  We have to make sure we have the cap $$ in a year or two to sign our own.

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The Cowboys always seem to find the money to keep their top talent, so will we. What's the point of getting top talent if we let them walk when they want to get paid as top talent??

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Leonard and Big Q are Colts... for as long as they can sustain elite performance that their pay will command. 
 

This is the importance of structuring the other deals well and continuing to draft well. If Buckner gets 5 years/ $21 million per, then Q and Leonard are going to stay here as well. I don’t see how Ballard could justify getting rid of them. You want top talent. You find ways to acquire it, and then you pay to retain it. Drafting is essential to proper team building with the cap space.

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20 M probably not.  

 

At this point the max on guards is 15 M.  Given time and the fact that he will likely set the market, Nelson could be at 17M.

 

4-3 outside linebackers top out at 13.5 M.  Leonard could therefore be somewhere around 15. 

 

The good news is that neither of these positions is aggressively increasing in price

 

I would say that Ballard would likely trade them if he didn't have the money to pay them.  

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8 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

Good post.   These are fair questions.   Looked over at Spotrac, a site that offers tons of financial information.

 

First,  I think Nelson will be the easiest signing.   I’ll explain why....   the rankings show that the top guard makes $15 mill.  (Zack Martin) The next two make just under $14.8.   After that, the numbers drop between a few hundred thousand and roughly one million.  

 

In other words, very incremental.  so we could open with an offer of 5/80 (16 per) or even 5/85 (17 per) and show our seriousness.  We’ve offered a good bump.  Yes, he could ask for 5/100, but I don’t think it’s likely that Q asks for $5 mill a year MORE than the current top guard.   Nelson is from Indiana, his parents are here.  He’s got lots of reasons to compromise and still be the highest paid guard. 
 

It’s Leonard where I think things get interesting and a bit risky.  Mack is tops at $26 and change.  Miller is next at $25 and change.  Then a drop off to Chandler Jones at $21 plus.  After that, the numbers drop considerably into the teens.   So clearly Darius is looking at at least high teens and probably at least $20 mill per.  I believe Ballard has said WOLB is the most important LB spot.  So I don’t see him Nickle and Dime-ing  Leonard.  So I’d expect we offer roughly 5/100.   That would make Darius a top-5 paid OLB, but not the top-2. 
 

We’re not there yet, time wise, but it’s coming.  And that timeline will get here sooner than we all expect. 
 

Good post. 

 

If you look at overthecap, 4-3 outside linebackers top out at 13.5 M.

 

The guys you mentioned Mack, Miller, Jones are highly paid because they are edge rushers.  Leonard gets some sacks but he doesn't qualify as an edge rusher.  Therefore I see his cost being actually slightly less than Nelson.  Nelson would likely get 16 to 17.  I see Leonard getting around 15.  

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8 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Do u think that Ballard let's either walk and/or test the market? Nelson and Leonard could ask for 20 plus. I, personally, would never sign a guard or WLB to a contract in  that amount.

 

  A good hypothetical to get some useless hypothetical responses.
   Nelson, as a Hall of Fame type talent will get paid here.
   Leonard's market value and position makes it more iffy.
   

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I think Ballard keeps both for a few reasons:

He preaches building throughout the draft and keeping your own players.

Both Nelson and Leonard are top 2-3 at their position in the NFL.

Cap space should be fine.

They are 2 players that everyone loves Ballard for drafting.

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Listen, I am more concerned with this up coming season than I am 2-5 years down the road. 

Ballard is setting this team up with what he thinks we need. Right or wrong I will not judge him till the time comes.

What we have learned is what we thought we knew about Ballard is not true at all.

He has signed a high dollar free agent with Rivers.

He has traded a #1 pick away and signed a huge contract with Buckner.

He has not cut Brissett as most thought he would.

Now he is signing low cost players to fill out the 90 man roster like he should.

He still has a lot of work to do so lets just let it play out because we really don't have a choice. If Ballard is going to roll the dice this season lets all just enjoy the ride. 

 

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8 hours ago, CurBeatElite said:

He did go to ND, but he's a Jersey boy initially, and I believe his parents still live there along with his brothers.  

 

 

I know i read somewhere that his parents moved to southbend when he went to ND and they went to all the games.  It made me think of the movie Blue Chips.  I don't know of course but I wonder if ND bought them a house and a tractor! hahaha

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4 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Listen, I am more concerned with this up coming season than I am 2-5 years down the road. 

Ballard is setting this team up with what he thinks we need. Right or wrong I will not judge him till the time comes.

What we have learned is what we thought we knew about Ballard is not true at all.

He has signed a high dollar free agent with Rivers.

He has traded a #1 pick away and signed a huge contract with Buckner.

He has not cut Brissett as most thought he would.

Now he is signing low cost players to fill out the 90 man roster like he should.

He still has a lot of work to do so lets just let it play out because we really don't have a choice. If Ballard is going to roll the dice this season lets all just enjoy the ride. 

 

^^ THIS!!! ^^

 

If there's anything we learned last season, it's that nothing is guaranteed in this league.  We may lose our best player two weeks before kickoff, and guess what? we have to deal with it and move on.

 

I think the Luck retirement opened Ballards' eyes that he has to treat each season like it might be his last.  He can plan for the future, but he has to focus on winning NOW.  So I think we're going to see a more aggressive Ballard from now on, because it's been shown to work with all the recent SB teams that made splashes in free agency before their SB season began (KC, SF, NE, LA, PHI, etc.).  And if that means making Nelson and Leonard the highest paid at their position when the time comes, so be it.

 

As fans, all we can do is enjoy the ride and hope the moves that Ballard makes pay off.  :thmup:

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Assuming we’re not still paying our QB’s 50 million, signing both Nelson and Leonard won’t be an issue.

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10 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Do u think that Ballard let's either walk and/or test the market? Nelson and Leonard could ask for 20 plus. I, personally, would never sign a guard or WLB to a contract in  that amount.

So you would down grade the OLB, and LG position because you didn't want to pay proven players on your team?

 

So after you let them walk then what? Except a drop off in performance or wish that a rookie could play at ALL Pro levels as BIG Q, and Darius Leonard. 

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2 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

Listen, I am more concerned with this up coming season than I am 2-5 years down the road. 

Ballard is setting this team up with what he thinks we need. Right or wrong I will not judge him till the time comes.

What we have learned is what we thought we knew about Ballard is not true at all.

He has signed a high dollar free agent with Rivers.

He has traded a #1 pick away and signed a huge contract with Buckner.

He has not cut Brissett as most thought he would.

Now he is signing low cost players to fill out the 90 man roster like he should.

He still has a lot of work to do so lets just let it play out because we really don't have a choice. If Ballard is going to roll the dice this season lets all just enjoy the ride. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

^^ THIS!!! ^^

 

If there's anything we learned last season, it's that nothing is guaranteed in this league.  We may lose our best player two weeks before kickoff, and guess what? we have to deal with it and move on.

 

I think the Luck retirement opened Ballards' eyes that he has to treat each season like it might be his last.  He can plan for the future, but he has to focus on winning NOW.  So I think we're going to see a more aggressive Ballard from now on, because it's been shown to work with all the recent SB teams that made splashes in free agency before their SB season began (KC, SF, NE, LA, PHI, etc.).  And if that means making Nelson and Leonard the highest paid at their position when the time comes, so be it.

 

As fans, all we can do is enjoy the ride and hope the moves that Ballard makes pay off.  :thmup:

 

I'm a bit confused.   Are both of you advocating for not discussing it?   

I think most everything is up for discussion in the off season.   Sure none of us "know", but on a message board, I think it is fun to have opinions.     

 

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12 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

So you wouldn't sign the anchor of a top 5 running team in the league to what he would be worth? 

Then you add you wouldn't resign our pro bowl defensive team MVP player either?

I sure am glad you are not the Colts GM. 

 

Me and CrazyColt1 don't see eye to eye on much but in this case I agree I would pay them both what they are worth not even a question so glad whoever said that isn't an NFL GM.

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1 hour ago, Rackeen305 said:

So you would down grade the OLB, and LG position because you didn't want to pay proven players on your team?

 

So after you let them walk then what? Except a drop off in performance or wish that a rookie could play at ALL Pro levels as BIG Q, and Darius Leonard. 

Draft their replacements or they mayb already on the team. 

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8 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

What you don't seem to understand is replacing the position is not the same as replacing the men. 

Both Big Q and Maniac are the leaders of this team and you can't put a price tag on what they mean to this team. 

One of the main reasons I have been a Colt fan is Irsay treats his people like family and treats them as such. Irsay is not afraid of paying his players. He did it with Manning, Edge, Harrison and even TY at the time. He has now agreed to the Buckner deal.

It may come down to the money for you but I am damn glad Irsay don't run this team like the Patriots where loyalty means zero. 

 

 

Patriots lack of loyalty as u define it has garnered them  6 rings. It is not that Belllichek is not loyal.  He puts a value on each positon and refuses to budge.  There is nothing wrong with the way he runs the club.  He runs it as a business and takes the emotion out of each decision he makes.  I have no problem with paying players.  I am just not sure I want to put tons of cap into the guard and WLB posiiton. Each is valuable,  however, I think it is easier to fill these positions in the draft with later round picks. 

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22 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Draft their replacements or they mayb already on the team. 

So wishful thinking tells you that a rookie, or alternate player on the team will be:

1) As healthy as QN and DL

2) As good as Qn and DL

3) While at the same-time accepting that the alternate player wont play up to the levels as QN and DL?

 

Bottom line is CB and Irsey have stated that they want to resign Nelson and Leonard and have been managing money with that in mind. The Colts have money so they will have to spend it. They've signed Rivers to a $25/1 year contract and has only truly invested long term on Bucker.

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24 minutes ago, Myles said:

 

 

I'm a bit confused.   Are both of you advocating for not discussing it?   

I think most everything is up for discussion in the off season.   Sure none of us "know", but on a message board, I think it is fun to have opinions.     

 

I am not advocating anything in particular, it's what you let it be to you.

I certainly wasn't suggesting not discussing whatever you want.

A new season, a new QB, one hell of a defensive player, Big Q, the Maniac.

We as Colt fans do have a little to be positive about this season. 

That's pretty much what I was talking about. 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Rackeen305 said:

So wishful thinking tells you that a rookie, or alternate player on the team will be:

1) As healthy as QN and DL

2) As good as Qn and DL

3) While at the same-time accepting that the alternate player wont play up to the levels as QN and DL?

 

Bottom line is CB and Irsey have stated that they want to resign Nelson and Leonard and have been managing money with that in mind. The Colts have money so they will have to spend it. They've signed Rivers to a $25/1 year contract and has only truly invested long term on Bucker.

I agree with what u r saying.  I doubt we would be able to draft a player of QN's quality. but we could fill his position with a quality player.  I have always believed that DL is over rated. A great player maker but not a great overall player.  And yes, I expect to get hammered for my opinion on DL. Watch the tape as he is a poor run defender and has lapses in coverage. If I am paying 20 million, he better b elite in every facet of the game.  The money we coukd save could b spend on more positions on this team.

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23 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Patriots lack of loyalty as u define it has garnered them  6 rings. It is not that Belllichek is not loyal.  He puts a value on each positon and refuses to budge.  There is nothing wrong with the way he runs the club.  He runs it as a business and takes the emotion out of each decision he makes.  I have no problem with paying players.  I am just not sure I want to put tons of cap into the guard and WLB posiiton. Each is valuable,  however, I think it is easier to fill these positions in the draft with later round picks. 

Well we all want rings but personally I don't want mental asterisks next to those rings. 

Taking the emotion out of each decision?  You serious? 

The Colts are more to me than a business. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Just now, crazycolt1 said:

Well we all want rings but personally I don't want mental asterisks next to those rings. 

Taking the emotion out of each decision?  You serious? 

The Colts are more to me than a business. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I meant Bill takes the emotion of each decision he makes. You have to do that to be successful. Releasing Manning was a business decsion.

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5 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

I agree with what u r saying.  I doubt we would be able to draft a player of QN's quality. but we could fill his position with a quality player.  I have always believed that DL is over rated. A great player maker but not a great overall player.  And yes, I expect to get hammered for my opinion on DL. Watch the tape as he is a poor run defender and has lapses in coverage. If I am paying 20 million, he better b elite in every facet of the game.  The money we coukd save could b spend on more positions on this team.

Yes you should get hammered for your opinion on DL. 

I don't think I need explaining that. 

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1 minute ago, crazycolt1 said:

Yes you should get hammered for your opinion on DL. 

I don't think I need explaining that. 

So u think DL is an elite LB in stopping the run and in pass coverage??

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18 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

 

We as Colt fans do have a little to be positive about this season. 

 

 

 

Yes we do.  The only thing that is holding me back is the question of if the season will happen or not.    I think the offense could be top 10 in the league.   I also think the defense could be top 10 in the league.  

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2 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

I meant Bill takes the emotion of each decision he makes. You have to do that to be successful. Releasing Manning was a business decsion.

 

Belichick just released Brady because he didn't want to pay him. Ask the Patriot fans if there is no emotion. As much as I despise the Patriots for them to not pay the player who took them to those rings you are talking about, they totally suck. 

Sorry, I don't want an owner or a GM with that mindset.  

 

 

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Belllichek did not release Brady because he did not want to pay him.  He released him because he did not want to sign a 43 year old qb to a 2 year guaranteed deal. The releasing of Manning and Brady r very similar to me. Plus, the Pats appear to b high on Stidham.  The Pats can use this as a year to evaluate Stidham and get rid of their dead money.  Smart business decision.  If Stidham is the real deal and they win, all will b forgotten snd Pat fans will move on. 

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4 hours ago, Valpo2004 said:

 

If you look at overthecap, 4-3 outside linebackers top out at 13.5 M.

 

The guys you mentioned Mack, Miller, Jones are highly paid because they are edge rushers.  Leonard gets some sacks but he doesn't qualify as an edge rusher.  Therefore I see his cost being actually slightly less than Nelson.  Nelson would likely get 16 to 17.  I see Leonard getting around 15.  

V....

 

I think you make an extremely good argument that honestly, late last night, when I posted, I had not considered.  
 

Really great observation!

 

So, if this holds, then we might be looking at roughly $15 mill per for Leonard’s deal...

 

Thanks for pointing this out....

 

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3 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

V....

 

I think you make an extremely good argument that honestly, late last night, when I posted, I had not considered.  
 

Really great observation!

 

So, if this holds, then we might be looking at roughly $15 mill per for Leonard’s deal...

 

Thanks for pointing this out....

 

Mosley signed last year to a massive 5 year 85 million dollar contract. Average salary 17 million.  Leonard will want to reset the market as will his agent.  He will not b signing a 2nd contract for 15 million a year.

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