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Moving up for Derrick Brown? Pick #13 and #44 for Pick #6 or #7...


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6 minutes ago, stitches said:

You do NOT trade up for DT when you don't have a franchise QB on your team. 

I’d extend that to say you don’t trade up for any position without having a long term franchise QB in place.

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21 minutes ago, stitches said:

You do NOT trade up for DT when you don't have a franchise QB on your team. 

You’ve heard the rumors. We’re taking Rivers, Carr, Brady, Bridgewater and a 5th rounder from Appalachian State.  

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Yeah, gotta go with what is sure to be the majority here. We don't even have a franchise QB AND have enough positions to upgrade I don't think we should be losing picks early unless it's for a QB. If Brown and Kinlaw are gone there are still DTs that can help and we can still get a top OT, pass rusher or blue chip WR at 13. The 13th pick ought to be a difference maker pick whether we go for DT or not. Most of us seem to want a DT due to wanting to have dominance in the trenches. But we also know a replacement for Castanso and our WR2 (future wr1) is also very important. So why take picks away? 

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If you remember,  Ballard always has a number of the blue chip prospects in each draft. If there are only 12 and we are 13, then he might be willing to move up if it’s a position of need. Some of those blue chips should be QB, DT, and OT, and that would be enticing.

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33 minutes ago, LockeDown said:

You’ve heard the rumors. We’re taking Rivers, Carr, Brady, Bridgewater and a 5th rounder from Appalachian State.  

Agreed.  Rivers will start. Carr will finish each game when we r behind bu 21 points,  so he can pad his stats and completion percentage.  Brady will come into the game when we r behind by less 14 points and pad his 4th quarter comeback stats.  Wen all three go down with an injury then Bridegewater can start.

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1 hour ago, stitches said:

You do NOT trade up for DT when you don't have a franchise QB on your team. 

You do not draft a guard that high...I give you Quentin Nelson...and look what he has done for our franchise. We have pick 34 right there for insurance. WR, OT, DE or QB...

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35 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

I would

I wouldn't. Who knows.....Kinlaw may be the better prospect. Talent wise, they aren't that far apart, and Kinlaw has a very decent chance of being there at 13. 

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58 minutes ago, Hoose said:

I wouldn't. Who knows.....Kinlaw may be the better prospect. Talent wise, they aren't that far apart, and Kinlaw has a very decent chance of being there at 13. 

Kinlaw’s really good...Brown is great. Watch Kinlaw in the Georgia game... swallowed up with those 1st/2nd round Georgia O-Linemen... 

 

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1 hour ago, FalseStart said:

You do not draft a guard that high...I give you Quentin Nelson...and look what he has done for our franchise. We have pick 34 right there for insurance. WR, OT, DE or QB...

Exactly..... Derrick Brown and Javon Kinlaw are not only penetrators and game-wreckers.... they are "tone setters" in the interior that would bring added value to our back seven guys.

 

Under a scenario where the Lions and Giants don't select Brown or Kinlaw.... and given the likelihood that Miami (Tua) and the Chargers (I'm predicting Love here) select QBs..... one or both of these DTs should be available at #8 where the Cardinals pick just ahead of Jacksonville. 

 

If only one of those guys is available at #8.... I would absolutely pitch a deal to AZ of our #13 and #75 pick.... and a flip-flop of our #34 for their #40 in Round 2. 

 

That would be an equitable swap and basically we're giving up a 3rd rounder and five spots in Round 2 to move up for Brown or Kinlaw.

 

If BOTH are available at #8? I almost guarantee that the Jags will take one of them.... and we'll be sweating out the next 3 selections.

 

I respect and totally get the QB-centric crowd sentiment in this discussion.... we've not been in QB purgatory like this in 20 years.

 

And if Jordan Love IS the next Patrick Mahomes 2-3 years from now.... whether we select him or not... I'll gladly take my lumps for doubting him.

 

At the same time.... remember that the closest thing we've had to a dominant DT in a full 28 years is Steve Emtman.... and his career was short-lived as he wound up maimed in both knees and out of football. 

 

And let's also remember that lacking that disruptive force on the interior DL costed us come playoff time.... and that was WITH Peyton Manning at QB....and Marvin...and Reggie....and Edge. 

 

All that HALL OF FAME juice on offense and we won 1 Lombardi.

 

This tells me that we shouldn't just reject out of hand the idea for moving up for a "best in breed" game-changer such as Brown or Kinlaw. Not to be reckless about it or to overpay....but we shouldn't just rule it out because of this overblown "positional value" line of thinking. JMO

 

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, pacolts56 said:

Exactly..... Derrick Brown and Javon Kinlaw are not only penetrators and game-wreckers.... they are "tone setters" in the interior that would bring added value to our back seven guys.

 

Under a scenario where the Lions and Giants don't select Brown or Kinlaw.... and given the likelihood that Miami (Tua) and the Chargers (I'm predicting Love here) select QBs..... one or both of these DTs should be available at #8 where the Cardinals pick just ahead of Jacksonville. 

 

If only one of those guys is available at #8.... I would absolutely pitch a deal to AZ of our #13 and #75 pick.... and a flip-flop of our #34 for their #40 in Round 2. 

 

That would be an equitable swap and basically we're giving up a 3rd rounder and five spots in Round 2 to move up for Brown or Kinlaw.

 

If BOTH are available at #8? I almost guarantee that the Jags will take one of them.... and we'll be sweating out the next 3 selections.

 

I respect and totally get the QB-centric crowd sentiment in this discussion.... we've not been in QB purgatory like this in 20 years.

 

And if Jordan Love IS the next Patrick Mahomes 2-3 years from now.... whether we select him or not... I'll gladly take my lumps for doubting him.

 

At the same time.... remember that the closest thing we've had to a dominant DT in a full 28 years is Steve Emtman.... and his career was short-lived as he wound up maimed in both knees and out of football. 

 

And let's also remember that lacking that disruptive force on the interior DL costed us come playoff time.... and that was WITH Peyton Manning at QB....and Marvin...and Reggie....and Edge. 

 

All that HALL OF FAME juice on offense and we won 1 Lombardi.

 

This tells me that we shouldn't just reject out of hand the idea for moving up for a "best in breed" game-changer such as Brown of Kinlaw. Not to be reckless about it or to overpay....but we shouldn't just rule it out because of this overblown "positional value" line of thinking. JMO

 

 

 

 

Completely Agree... I give you Mr. Derrick Brown...The Beast!

 

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3 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Agreed.  Rivers will start. Carr will finish each game when we r behind bu 21 points,  so he can pad his stats and completion percentage.  Brady will come into the game when we r behind by less 14 points and pad his 4th quarter comeback stats.  Wen all three go down with an injury then Bridegewater can start.

That’s good because it’ll give Jacoby more time to develop 

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1 hour ago, pacolts56 said:

Exactly..... Derrick Brown and Javon Kinlaw are not only penetrators and game-wreckers.... they are "tone setters" in the interior that would bring added value to our back seven guys.

 

Under a scenario where the Lions and Giants don't select Brown or Kinlaw.... and given the likelihood that Miami (Tua) and the Chargers (I'm predicting Love here) select QBs..... one or both of these DTs should be available at #8 where the Cardinals pick just ahead of Jacksonville. 

 

If only one of those guys is available at #8.... I would absolutely pitch a deal to AZ of our #13 and #75 pick.... and a flip-flop of our #34 for their #40 in Round 2. 

 

That would be an equitable swap and basically we're giving up a 3rd rounder and five spots in Round 2 to move up for Brown or Kinlaw.

 

If BOTH are available at #8? I almost guarantee that the Jags will take one of them.... and we'll be sweating out the next 3 selections.

 

I respect and totally get the QB-centric crowd sentiment in this discussion.... we've not been in QB purgatory like this in 20 years.

 

And if Jordan Love IS the next Patrick Mahomes 2-3 years from now.... whether we select him or not... I'll gladly take my lumps for doubting him.

 

At the same time.... remember that the closest thing we've had to a dominant DT in a full 28 years is Steve Emtman.... and his career was short-lived as he wound up maimed in both knees and out of football. 

 

And let's also remember that lacking that disruptive force on the interior DL costed us come playoff time.... and that was WITH Peyton Manning at QB....and Marvin...and Reggie....and Edge. 

 

All that HALL OF FAME juice on offense and we won 1 Lombardi.

 

This tells me that we shouldn't just reject out of hand the idea for moving up for a "best in breed" game-changer such as Brown or Kinlaw. Not to be reckless about it or to overpay....but we shouldn't just rule it out because of this overblown "positional value" line of thinking. JMO

 

 

 

 

Good post 

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we don't have to get snippy with each other. Plenty of reallllly smart NFL GMs have said over and over, the game starts with two things: a passer, and second, someone to disrupt the other team's passer.

Play a game. Insert the greatest DL you can think of into our lineup. Say Reggie White. How many wins does that get us? seriously. Then, think of adding a dynamic passer. How many wins.

Who was more important? Manning or Freeney and Mathis? 

i pick passer. Now, it's not a zero-sum game. we could take a qb with one of our second round picks. 

But I'd rather aim for a qb. that's just me.

Oh, and this year, i think there are good qb prospects. after burrow and tua, I think Love and Eason are first round prospects, and Fromm isn't far behind.

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1 hour ago, Gigc said:

we don't have to get snippy with each other. Plenty of reallllly smart NFL GMs have said over and over, the game starts with two things: a passer, and second, someone to disrupt the other team's passer.

Play a game. Insert the greatest DL you can think of into our lineup. Say Reggie White. How many wins does that get us? seriously. Then, think of adding a dynamic passer. How many wins.

Who was more important? Manning or Freeney and Mathis? 

i pick passer. Now, it's not a zero-sum game. we could take a qb with one of our second round picks. 

But I'd rather aim for a qb. that's just me.

Oh, and this year, i think there are good qb prospects. after burrow and tua, I think Love and Eason are first round prospects, and Fromm isn't far behind.

Okay... Reggie White, Warren Sapp,  Haloti Ngata, Ndamukong Suh or Tim Couch, Ryan Leaf, Joey Harrington, Matt Leinart, EJ manual, Blake Bortles, Marcus Marriota, Paxton Lynch, (comparable to QB4,5,6 in this years draft) etc...

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1 hour ago, Gigc said:

we don't have to get snippy with each other. Plenty of reallllly smart NFL GMs have said over and over, the game starts with two things: a passer, and second, someone to disrupt the other team's passer.

Play a game. Insert the greatest DL you can think of into our lineup. Say Reggie White. How many wins does that get us? seriously. Then, think of adding a dynamic passer. How many wins.

Who was more important? Manning or Freeney and Mathis? 

i pick passer. Now, it's not a zero-sum game. we could take a qb with one of our second round picks. 

But I'd rather aim for a qb. that's just me.

Oh, and this year, i think there are good qb prospects. after burrow and tua, I think Love and Eason are first round prospects, and Fromm isn't far behind.

Here’s the fatal flaw with undervaluing the DT position.

 

Lets play your game....

 

You yourself outlined our template of Peyton Manning and Marvin Harrison.... and let’s add Edgerrin James, Reggie Wayne and Dallas Clark.

 

AND.... Freeney and Mathis at DEs.

 

Now.... ADD Warren Sapp in his prime and tell me how Brady, Rivers and Big Ben stand in the pocket like they did or their RBs flourish as Manning and Co. wrung their hands on the sidelines waiting to get back on the field.

 

Belichick and McDick have been masters at exploiting our soft spots in the interior trenches on both sides of the ball.

 

Aren’t we freakin tired of that? I sure am.

 

And I’m really glad that Ballard has made note of the importance of physical dominance in the trenches.... and has addressed it on offense with Nelson and Co.
 

Somewhere along with.... yes, figuring out the QB dilemma.... he needs to do the same at DT.

 

This Manning era stuff isn’t theoretical... it actually happened!

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1 hour ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Rubbish

 

So you would give up a pick on a DT knowing we have a hole at QB? 

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  • I would let the draft play out.......

unless you get a killer deal for Tua

 

If you want to go 3T Kinlaw is a very good choice as well, and just slightly less of a prospect than Brown 

 

We should get a decent prospect at 13

 

Whether it’s DT, QB, or OT

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31 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

I would this year.  I dont see a qb worthy of trading up for

 

Tua and Herbert are not worth trading up for? Have you watched them?

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6 hours ago, pacolts56 said:

Exactly..... Derrick Brown and Javon Kinlaw are not only penetrators and game-wreckers.... they are "tone setters" in the interior that would bring added value to our back seven guys.

 

Under a scenario where the Lions and Giants don't select Brown or Kinlaw.... and given the likelihood that Miami (Tua) and the Chargers (I'm predicting Love here) select QBs..... one or both of these DTs should be available at #8 where the Cardinals pick just ahead of Jacksonville. 

 

If only one of those guys is available at #8.... I would absolutely pitch a deal to AZ of our #13 and #75 pick.... and a flip-flop of our #34 for their #40 in Round 2. 

 

That would be an equitable swap and basically we're giving up a 3rd rounder and five spots in Round 2 to move up for Brown or Kinlaw.

 

If BOTH are available at #8? I almost guarantee that the Jags will take one of them.... and we'll be sweating out the next 3 selections.

 

I respect and totally get the QB-centric crowd sentiment in this discussion.... we've not been in QB purgatory like this in 20 years.

 

And if Jordan Love IS the next Patrick Mahomes 2-3 years from now.... whether we select him or not... I'll gladly take my lumps for doubting him.

 

At the same time.... remember that the closest thing we've had to a dominant DT in a full 28 years is Steve Emtman.... and his career was short-lived as he wound up maimed in both knees and out of football. 

 

And let's also remember that lacking that disruptive force on the interior DL costed us come playoff time.... and that was WITH Peyton Manning at QB....and Marvin...and Reggie....and Edge. 

 

All that HALL OF FAME juice on offense and we won 1 Lombardi.

 

This tells me that we shouldn't just reject out of hand the idea for moving up for a "best in breed" game-changer such as Brown or Kinlaw. Not to be reckless about it or to overpay....but we shouldn't just rule it out because of this overblown "positional value" line of thinking. JMO

 

 

 

 

I get that, but JJ Watt is a HOF talent, didnt seem to matter, Donaldson in LA with a good line AND offense... where were they?  I’m all for a stud DT, but playmakers, especially those who touch the ball, seem to make the most impact.

  That said, then you look at how Nelson seemed to change things. I’m excited to see what happens.

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I think it depends on how good you think Brown will be.  He will be the first DT taken in this draft, and SHOULD be.  He's a monster and should excel at any inside position in any scheme.  Kinlaw is very good and will be #2 but isn't as flexible.  I think there's a 50-50 chance Kinlaw will be available at 13.  I think it's probably less than 25% Brown will be.  The question is do you think Brown is worth an extra 2nd round pick over Kinlaw?  I think he might be but I would pay close attention to what happens in FA.  That will likely guide where you think teams in front of you might be looking at in terms of draft prospects.  Brown COULD be there at 13.  Not likely but not improbable either.

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Nelson was a total different situation we traded down and got him, If we traded up for Brown or Kinlaw then we are moving up for a player that has potential to fall to us and losing other draft picks that could be just as effective starters.

 

Not to mention our QB situation

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7 hours ago, Gigc said:

we don't have to get snippy with each other. Plenty of reallllly smart NFL GMs have said over and over, the game starts with two things: a passer, and second, someone to disrupt the other team's passer.

Play a game. Insert the greatest DL you can think of into our lineup. Say Reggie White. How many wins does that get us? seriously. Then, think of adding a dynamic passer. How many wins.

Who was more important? Manning or Freeney and Mathis? 

i pick passer. Now, it's not a zero-sum game. we could take a qb with one of our second round picks. 

But I'd rather aim for a qb. that's just me.

Oh, and this year, i think there are good qb prospects. after burrow and tua, I think Love and Eason are first round prospects, and Fromm isn't far behind.

The newest advanced analytics suggest that the best defender in the league currently and one of greatest ever(Aaron Donald) adds about as many wins as an average QB. And BTW Donald is head and shoulders above every other defender currently. QB as a position is just so much more valuable than every other position that it makes it not even a conversation for teams that need a QB. This is the reason QBs get overdrafted and overpaid every year. 

 

So yeah... If you don't have a franchise QB, and you like a QB in the draft, that takes precedence over other positions even if players at other positions are better prospects.

 

And if you don't have a franchise QB, and you don't like the QBs in this draft, then stack up with future picks that will help you get that franchise QB rather than wasting multiple premier assets on defensive tackle.

 

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6 hours ago, pacolts56 said:

Here’s the fatal flaw with undervaluing the DT position.

 

Lets play your game....

 

You yourself outlined our template of Peyton Manning and Marvin Harrison.... and let’s add Edgerrin James, Reggie Wayne and Dallas Clark.

 

AND.... Freeney and Mathis at DEs.

 

Now.... ADD Warren Sapp in his prime and tell me how Brady, Rivers and Big Ben stand in the pocket like they did or their RBs flourish as Manning and Co. wrung their hands on the sidelines waiting to get back on the field.

 

Belichick and McDick have been masters at exploiting our soft spots in the interior trenches on both sides of the ball.

 

Aren’t we freakin tired of that? I sure am.

 

And I’m really glad that Ballard has made note of the importance of physical dominance in the trenches.... and has addressed it on offense with Nelson and Co.
 

Somewhere along with.... yes, figuring out the QB dilemma.... he needs to do the same at DT.

 

This Manning era stuff isn’t theoretical... it actually happened!

well, yeah. but we don't have Manning. we have Jacoby.

I think we go for the qb first if we're choosing between trading up for a DT or a QB.

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5 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

So  who would u move up for? Qb i mean.

Not sure. Listening to the draft guys, Tua would be the only one to trade up for.

I don't think there's any chance cincy gives up Burrow. it would kill their fan base.

it's all academic. at this point, it looks like you'd have to trade up to Washington at 2 or Detroit at 3 because Miami AND San Diego look like they'll take qbs. I don't think we have the ammo to get that high. 

I think Tua would be the target because as much as I WANT to love Herbert, he has just underwhelmed every time I've watched him.

i say if we move up, it's just a couple of picks to get Love. Maybe Eason.

there's a lot of evaluation left. combine next week

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6 hours ago, pacolts56 said:

Here’s the fatal flaw with undervaluing the DT position.

 

Lets play your game....

 

You yourself outlined our template of Peyton Manning and Marvin Harrison.... and let’s add Edgerrin James, Reggie Wayne and Dallas Clark.

 

AND.... Freeney and Mathis at DEs.

 

Now.... ADD Warren Sapp in his prime and tell me how Brady, Rivers and Big Ben stand in the pocket like they did or their RBs flourish as Manning and Co. wrung their hands on the sidelines waiting to get back on the field.

 

Belichick and McDick have been masters at exploiting our soft spots in the interior trenches on both sides of the ball.

 

Aren’t we freakin tired of that? I sure am.

 

And I’m really glad that Ballard has made note of the importance of physical dominance in the trenches.... and has addressed it on offense with Nelson and Co.
 

Somewhere along with.... yes, figuring out the QB dilemma.... he needs to do the same at DT.

 

This Manning era stuff isn’t theoretical... it actually happened!

Nobody is talking about ignoring DT or the trenches. Hopefully Ballard can walk and chew gum at the same time. We are talking about prioritizing the use of premier assets. No13 is not the only pick we have and it's not like we don't have 90 million of capspace to address less urgent and less valuable needs. If he wants it, Ballard can outspend everybody on the best 3tech he likes in FA. Hell, he can get both the best 3tech and best 1tech on the market. At least at the DT position good to  great players hit the market every year. Franchise QBs almost never hit FA. This is why you prioritize getting a QB from the draft and for the best of them you usually have to use your best picks.

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