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Defjamz26

Should the Colts draft another edge rusher high?

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So over the last few years, Ballard has addressed the pass rush with a couple of high picks:

 

-2017 Terrell Basham in the 3rd

-2018 Kemoko Turray in the 2nd

-2019 Ben Banogu in the 2nd

 

My question is should the right opportunity present itself, do you guys think we should spend another early pick on an edge rusher? Epenesa and Chaisson might both be available at 13. Reports are that Yetur Gross-Matos will be available in the 2nd. You also have guys like Julian Owkara and Jonathan Greenard who could be there rounds 2-3. Just wanted to see everyone’s thoughts.

 

To make it easy let’s take the QBs, potential LT need, and DT’s out of the equation for each scenario so we can avoid pointless banter about how we need X position more than we need an edge rusher. Assume Kinlaw and Brown are gone, the QBs are gone or Ballard is waiting till next year for one, and assume Costanzo comes back long term. What do you think? 

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Under your assumptions I would say YES most definitely.  Our biggest need would then be WR or ER.  I would guess ER with 13 and WR with 34.  

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Basham beating up nerds in high school.  

 

Basham - great against nerds, not so great against NFL competition.

 

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 No.
 We are solid with our current Houston, and other prospects.
 I can't see Ballard not addressing bigger needs with our first 3 picks.

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10 minutes ago, throwing BBZ said:

 No.
 We are solid with our current Houston, and other prospects.
 I can't see Ballard not addressing bigger needs with our first 3 picks.

ballard wont draft by need he will take the best player available at any position or trade down if he gets what he thinks is a deal. yes we desperately need more pressure from our edge and the current players are not game changers

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3 minutes ago, DEFENSE said:

ballard wont draft by need he will take the best player available at any position or trade down if he gets what he thinks is a deal. yes we desperately need more pressure from our edge and the current players are not game changers

 

 Houston and Turay ARE game changers.
 Banogu should be better and Lewis has a lot to prove but should be a solid contibutor.
 I hope we move on from Sheard. I could see a 3rd rd edge prospect being added.
 What Ballard does know is that our edge players would be greatly helped by a couple of high quality interior players.

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38 minutes ago, #12. said:

 

 

 

 

Basham beating up nerds in high school.  

 

Basham - great against nerds, not so great against NFL competition.

 

 

   Basham had a 73.1 PFF grade. Above average in 2019. He was 69 in 2018.
  Our Sheard was 61.X last season. Not so great.

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27 minutes ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

   Basham had a 73.1 PFF grade. Above average in 2019. He was 69 in 2018.
  Our Sheard was 61.X last season. Not so great.

Sheard was also asked to do different things, so that grade may not reflect that

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I think once this team gets a true difference maker at the 3-tech DT spot, these pass rushers will start to really show out. 

 

Right now they have no one in the middle who can command attention to make their jobs easier. Plus opposing QBs can simply just step up in the pocket when our pass rushers are coming off the edge. 

 

Really hope we land Chris Jones in free agency, or Derrick Brown or Kinlaw in the draft. 

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4 minutes ago, csmopar said:

Sheard was also asked to do different things, so that grade may not reflect that

 

  This was a response to show that Basham was doing just fine in NFL competition.
  Sheard had a grade around 47 against the run. Really bad. He wasn't getting off blocks and making plays."
  Sheard has come up with a few posters saying we need to sign him for 7-10M per.
  That sounds like a terrible idea to me. I would let him go, but i could see Ballard letting him shop around to see if there is a reasonable number to match. I'll guess $5M in the 1st year with little to nothing guaranteed beyond. Pure speculation.

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25 minutes ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

  This was a response to show that Basham was doing just fine in NFL competition.
  Sheard had a grade around 47 against the run. Really bad. He wasn't getting off blocks and making plays."
  Sheard has come up with a few posters saying we need to sign him for 7-10M per.
  That sounds like a terrible idea to me. I would let him go, but i could see Ballard letting him shop around to see if there is a reasonable number to match. I'll guess $5M in the 1st year with little to nothing guaranteed beyond. Pure speculation.

if he's that bad, there's no way Ballard keeps him around. I didn't think he was completely bad last year, but I did think he'd slowed down noticeably. 

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27 minutes ago, throwing BBZ said:

This was a response to show that Basham was doing just fine in NFL competition

 

A PFF grade in a vaccum...  He's a top-80 pick on his second team, averaging a little over one sack a season and probably not long for the NFL.  

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6 minutes ago, csmopar said:

if he's that bad, there's no way Ballard keeps him around. I didn't think he was completely bad last year, but I did think he'd slowed down noticeably. 

 

I doubt Sheard's re-signed.  Ballard throws praise at practically everyone and people run with it.  

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2 hours ago, BProland85 said:

I think once this team gets a true difference maker at the 3-tech DT spot, these pass rushers will start to really show out. 

 

Right now they have no one in the middle who can command attention to make their jobs easier. Plus opposing QBs can simply just step up in the pocket when our pass rushers are coming off the edge. 

 

Really hope we land Chris Jones in free agency, or Derrick Brown or Kinlaw in the draft. 

A 3-tech that can collapse the pocket and flush the QB out to the left or right would make a world of a difference. 
 

Do you feel confident though that Turray (injury history) and Banogu (Raw) are your bookend pass rushers of the future?

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Yes. I feel like it's one of those positions where you can never have enough talent. Keep swinging and you either end up with a stable of guys who can rotate eventually or you end up with a star.

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4 hours ago, BProland85 said:

I think once this team gets a true difference maker at the 3-tech DT spot, these pass rushers will start to really show out. 

 

Right now they have no one in the middle who can command attention to make their jobs easier. Plus opposing QBs can simply just step up in the pocket when our pass rushers are coming off the edge. 

 

Really hope we land Chris Jones in free agency, or Derrick Brown or Kinlaw in the draft. 

Agreed. A 3-tech who can consistently push the pocket up the middle will improve the sack numbers for the outside guys.  I would love me some Brown or Kinlaw, but will either of them still be on the board at #13? I see a lot of mocks that have both of them gone by #10. 

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4 hours ago, BProland85 said:

I think once this team gets a true difference maker at the 3-tech DT spot, these pass rushers will start to really show out. 

 

Right now they have no one in the middle who can command attention to make their jobs easier. Plus opposing QBs can simply just step up in the pocket when our pass rushers are coming off the edge. 

 

Really hope we land Chris Jones in free agency, or Derrick Brown or Kinlaw in the draft. 

Why not both lol

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6 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

So over the last few years, Ballard has addressed the pass rush with a couple of high picks:

 

-2017 Terrell Basham in the 3rd

-2018 Kemoko Turray in the 2nd

-2019 Ben Banogu in the 2nd

 

My question is should the right opportunity present itself, do you guys think we should spend another early pick on an edge rusher? Epenesa and Chaisson might both be available at 13. Reports are that Yetur Gross-Matos will be available in the 2nd. You also have guys like Julian Owkara and Jonathan Greenard who could be there rounds 2-3. Just wanted to see everyone’s thoughts.

 

To make it easy let’s take the QBs, potential LT need, and DT’s out of the equation for each scenario so we can avoid pointless banter about how we need X position more than we need an edge rusher. Assume Kinlaw and Brown are gone, the QBs are gone or Ballard is waiting till next year for one, and assume Costanzo comes back long term. What do you think? 

It's not really reality, so I'll suggest an alternate reality that's more palatable. Let's say AC comes back, QB (Carr or Rivers) and iDL are both addressed in FA. Would I then draft an early DE?

 

Maybe. I'd take the best of whatever OT, DB, and DE is available.  No thank you to Epenesa. 

 

We have far bigger needs THIS YEAR, but next year DE will be critical. You have to let Turay (not sure he'll ever be a 3 down DE) and Banogu (I think they may have reached too much here) play out at least another year before making a major move on DE IMO. I also think Houston will be back (in 2021) unless he totally drops off the planet this year. It's a contract year and I think he'll actually do better, especially if we get a solid upgrade at 3T.

5 hours ago, DEFENSE said:

ballard wont draft by need he will take the best player available at any position or trade down if he gets what he thinks is a deal. yes we desperately need more pressure from our edge and the current players are not game changers

I laugh every time someone says we'll never draft by need. Need plays into a team's big board in a big way. If BPA is an OC, OG, or OLB/WILL in the first round, we're not taking the BPA. It's better to say we won't reach for need. But we do draft by need so long as it's not a huge delta.

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6 hours ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 Houston and Turay ARE game changers.
 Banogu should be better and Lewis has a lot to prove but should be a solid contibutor.
 I hope we move on from Sheard. I could see a 3rd rd edge prospect being added.
 What Ballard does know is that our edge players would be greatly helped by a couple of high quality interior players.

you have a good point our middle does need to push more

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Epenesa and Greenard are Colts Type guys...I would take either Greenard has a spin moving similar to Freeney...And Epenesa to take over for Houston...Lewis gets bumped to DT3

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1 hour ago, EastStreet said:

You have to let Turay (not sure he'll ever be a 3 down DE) and Banogu (I think they may have reached too much here)

Crazy because I have the exact same thoughts on those two players. That’s why I posed the question. Turray at his best is purely a speed rusher. You always have to take him off the field on run downs. And I honestly didn’t like the Banogu pick at all. Seemed way to early for a true project player.

 

But idk if you can afford to wait 

and see with an often banged up 2-down speed rusher and a guy who wasn’t taught pass rushing moves in college. I just think that a guy like Epenesa is exactly what Ballard likes and exactly what the defense needs (I think he’s a rich man’s Jabal Sheard).

 

You can get a 3-tech round 2-3 or in FA. You can get a WR any round in the draft this year. But if the QBs are gone, Ballard gets one later/in FA, I think you take Epenesa (Maybe Chaisson). Or if you get a QB round 1, you’ll have Gross Matos or Grenard there in round 2.

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59 minutes ago, Defjamz26 said:

Crazy because I have the exact same thoughts on those two players. That’s why I posed the question. Turray at his best is purely a speed rusher. You always have to take him off the field on run downs. And I honestly didn’t like the Banogu pick at all. Seemed way to early for a true project player.

 

Keep in mind most thought Turay was a better tackler in space than a rusher coming into the draft. He's actually improved tremendously as a pass rusher, and I think he could turn out to be a 3 down guy. He was very wiry coming in from Rutgers, and has gotten "thicker" while not losing speed. Verdict is still out, but he was trending well before injury.

 

Banogu..... I didn't like that pick from the start. I think this was a case of Ballard getting too cute and reaching. I agree, way too early for a pure project. And all the SAM talk I thought was foolish from the start too. I'm glad the experiment ended early. I hope they attached a trainer to his hip this off season to teach him pass rush moves. He's got upside for sure, but a low floor as well.

 

59 minutes ago, Defjamz26 said:

But idk if you can afford to wait 

and see with an often banged up 2-down speed rusher and a guy who wasn’t taught pass rushing moves in college. I just think that a guy like Epenesa is exactly what Ballard likes and exactly what the defense needs (I think he’s a rich man’s Jabal Sheard).

 

Espenesa is full of holes IMO. I've read a bunch, and watched a bunch. He's got power, but no burst, and poor lateral movement. I think he's fools gold and a product of scheme, system, and surrounding players. Hats off to Ferentz who got the most out of him, but IMO he's not going to be a boss in the NFL. He's my candidate for biggest draft day drop.

 

59 minutes ago, Defjamz26 said:

 

You can get a 3-tech round 2-3 or in FA. You can get a WR any round in the draft this year. But if the QBs are gone, Ballard gets one later/in FA, I think you take Epenesa (Maybe Chaisson). Or if you get a QB round 1, you’ll have Gross Matos or Grenard there in round 2.

I'd take Kinlaw or Gallimore over Epenesa all day every day. I'd take Chaisson over Epenesa too, but not before Kinlaw or Gallimore.

 

IMO, if you add a good 3T, the entire front 4, and the entire D (especially the DBs) take a big step forward. Adding another DE without a 3T is going to give us more of the same. We simply need a presence in the middle more than anything, and IMO it's not even close.

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8 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Espenesa is full of holes IMO. I've read a bunch, and watched a bunch. He's got power, but no burst, and poor lateral movement. I think he's fools gold and a product of scheme, system, and surrounding players. Hats off to Ferentz who got the most out of him, but IMO he's not going to be a boss in the NFL. He's my candidate for biggest draft day drop.

He’s definitely not as bendy and fluid as Young or Chaisson. But I think he’s plenty athletic. Had over 1,000 career points in basketball in high school and won the state discus throw back to back. Plus he’d be a strong side DE. He’ll set a strong edge but also give you some pass rush. He doesn’t need to be the best athlete. Plus he can kick inside if needed and you can bring an extra rusher in on the edge. To each his own though. For what it’s worth PFF has him mocked to us as well.

29 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

IMO, if you add a good 3T, the entire front 4, and the entire D (especially the DBs) take a big step forward. Adding another DE without a 3T is going to give us more of the same. We simply need a presence in the middle more than anything, and IMO it's not even close.

Agreed there, but you can have both. You could get an edge round 1 and still get a 3-tech in round 2.

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1 hour ago, Defjamz26 said:

He’s definitely not as bendy and fluid as Young or Chaisson. But I think he’s plenty athletic. Had over 1,000 career points in basketball in high school and won the state discus throw back to back. Plus he’d be a strong side DE. He’ll set a strong edge but also give you some pass rush. He doesn’t need to be the best athlete. Plus he can kick inside if needed and you can bring an extra rusher in on the edge. To each his own though. For what it’s worth PFF has him mocked to us as well.

I get what you're saying, but I simply think a 3T inside does far more for us than a limited rusher at DE. We're already top 10 vs the run, and bottom 10 vs the pass, so to me, just not a good fit.

1 hour ago, Defjamz26 said:

Agreed there, but you can have both. You could get an edge round 1 and still get a 3-tech in round 2.

I wouldn't even consider Espenesa at 13. If Kinlaw is there, he's an obvious take. If Kinlaw isn't, it would be a decision between OTs Wirfs, Becton, and Thomas (one of the three will be available), Gallimore (DT), and Chaisson. And that assumes we already have solved for QB, and AC is coming back (we still need to go OT). I'd also take Kinlaw even if we brought in a DT via FA too, especially if it's a short term deal and/or aging vet.

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5 hours ago, HarryTheCat said:

Agreed. A 3-tech who can consistently push the pocket up the middle will improve the sack numbers for the outside guys.  I would love me some Brown or Kinlaw, but will either of them still be on the board at #13? I see a lot of mocks that have both of them gone by #10. 

I have said it before.  If Ballard wants Kinlaw or Moore, he probably has to trade up

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10 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

I have said it before.  If Ballard wants Kinlaw or Moore, he probably has to trade up

Moore?

 

Kinlaw isn't going to go top 6, and the teams 7-12 have big needs elsewhere. I could see Carolina taking Kinlaw, but I think they will go CB or OL. IMO it will be OL as Paradis gave up a league high pressures. Ruhle has a mixed background, but he needs to protect his QB.

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31 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Moore?

 

Kinlaw isn't going to go top 6, and the teams 7-12 have big needs elsewhere. I could see Carolina taking Kinlaw, but I think they will go CB or OL. IMO it will be OL as Paradis gave up a league high pressures. Ruhle has a mixed background, but he needs to protect his QB.

Sorry the D tackle from Auburn.

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23 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Sorry the D tackle from Auburn.

Brown, that's what I figured, but though you might have meant GalliMORE :-)

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Steelers are in a worse cap crunch case and need to be within 30% of CBA resigning players this year.  NT/weak-side Javon Hargrave would help part of our DL issue and is better vs the run than Chris Jones and would cost less to obtain in FA.  

 

By all calculations on team-based needs Brown and Kinlaw should be draft early leaving Gallimore available for us to select in Round 1.  Autry is our weakest DL and biggest disappointments this past season.  Gallimore in college has a history of forcing a fumble or two,  getting to QBs and even been credited with PBUs.

 

Houston was a great FA addition at weak-side and continues to play strong be it a 3-4 or 4-3 base defense.  In Round 2 I would like to see us address our SS or even TE but would not mind adding more depth on the edge with Jonathan Greenard (Florida).  Greenard would help add depth to our weak-side rotating with Houston who is a FA after the upcoming year.  Enjoyed watching Greenard's game tape vs Miami and him punching the ball out.  Maybe it was the turnover chain motivation but the kid is good FFs and defending passes.  Just the awareness to not only make game tackles but mental aspect to look for ways to create turnovers at the same time playing full speed has Greenard on my radar to pick.  Greenard should hear his name called early in Round 2.

 

The other edge player who has caught my eye as of late is the Michigan State walk-on Kenny Willekes.  Willekes insanely high motor and ultra-competitive played both weak/strong side with success FFs and PD.  Willekes I figure will go Rounds 2-3.

 

Adding and upgrading our IDL to force more inside pressure on QBs will help our edge players when the QB gets flushed out of the pocket.  

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I think if Brown and Kinlaw are gone, (and I expect them to be) then if Ballard wants more pass rush, I hope we consider Chaisson, who fits the description of what Ballard wants.

 

He looks to be this year’s Brian Burns who Carolina grabbed in the middle of the first last year.   And Burns recorded 7.5 sacks in a part time roll.

 

One saying all GMs subscribe to, you can never have enough pass rush.   You could take Chaisson at 13, and still grab a DT at 34 and a WR at 44.

 

Of course this assumes Castonzo  returns and that we address QB either in free agency or after the first two rounds. 

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Not so sure about the first round but I would love Curtis Weaver if he's there at 34. This his excellent initial burst from LE would be a big help to our D.

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