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Coffeedrinker

Watched every game I could find of Love, Eason, Fromm and Gordon

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13 hours ago, Zoltan said:

 

 

I'm really surprised you didn't mention Gordon's lack of throwing the ball over 20 yards

Two reasons for this:  One, I tried not to list results of the offensive scheme or game plan as either a positive or negative and his few passes of over 20 yards is more a result of scheme than ability.  The 2nd reason is because he showed in the Senior bowl while scrambling to the left and throwing a 25 yard dart to the back of the endzone in the perfect place that he is more than capable of making those throws.

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Good write up.  You've certainly watched WAY more film than I have.  Personally, I don't think any of those four would be a good first round pick.  BUT, if they happened to take a guy like Kinlaw at 13 then want to trade back into the end of the first with our 2nd rounders to take one of them, then so be it.  I just personally wouldn't take any of them in round 1, and CERTAINLY not at 13.  If I had to pick one, I guess I'd go Love simply because of the arm strength, upside, and the mobility in today's NFL, although I think a guy like Gordon would be good value in say the 5th round.

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19 hours ago, stitches said:

I don't entirely agree with this one though. Like... he has some of those one/no read throws, but there are plenty of him making multiple and even full field progression reads and especially in the 2018 film he was actually showing good promise with those... he was going through the reads quickly and efficiently. I don't know what happened this year with the new coaching staff... was it the playcalling by the new coaches? Was it the talent he was working with? Did he take a step back in this regard himself? I'd love to be a fly on the wall when Ballard and Reich show him film and ask him about some of those situations and reads/no reads. 

 

Part of me wonders if he wasn't just buying into his own hype a bit.  Trying to make stuff happen when he should be just taking what the defense gives him.  

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17 hours ago, Zoltan said:

 

 

I'm really surprised you didn't mention Gordon's lack of throwing the ball over 20 yards

Watching Gordons highlights he has plenty of accurate throws over 20 yards.....

 

Not any 40-50 yard throws that other QBs make....but plenty of 20-30 yard throws

 

Gordon has an unmatched release in this class...... amazingly quick

 

The ball is out....NOW

 

The other thing I like, is the ability to throw sidearm, seemlessly, if he has someone’s hands in his face...... 

 

Gordon needs a great deal of work, many people bring up his footwork, and he CLEARLY needs to add 10-15 lbs of muscle... but IMHO... this kid will be special in 2021

 

I think the Colts can fix the footwork

 

Also...... I don’t see any way that he lasts till 5th

 

If we go for Gordon he would get my 3rd round pick 

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23 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

 

 

Jake Fromm:

Positives:  Since I saw a lot of the positives from Fromm that have been discussed... accuracy, touch, anticipation on his throws, understanding of the offense, head for the game, etc.  I won't go into great detail about that.  Some of the positives I saw that don't seem to get talked about much.  His competitiveness, to me this really popped out in watching his games and it's one of his best attributes.  One of the ways I think this came through was on 3rd and long (6 yards or greater).  All the Qbs above on 3rd and long, the majority of their throws were little 2 or 3 yard dump passes hoping the receiver makes a play.  The majority of Fromm's passes on 3rd and long were near or past the sticks.  That is someone that wants to keep the drive going not just playing it safe or being a game manager.  His does not have scrambling ability like Wilson or Prescott or Watson, but he chooses to run at smart times and has enough speed to make positive yards and first downs when the team needs it.  He can make accurate throws from different arm angles.

 

Negatives:  His arm strength is not elite but I would classify it is above average and I think it could move into the good category with proper mechanics.  He does not consistently engage his hips and core when throwing, he's more of a step and lean thrower.  But he made multiple 20-25 yard outs throws from the far hash both to the left and right side while fitting the ball into a tight window.  He has enough arm strength for the NFL.  The only other real negative I see in his game is if one rusher is pressing the pocket he can handle it well, if two are pressuring the pocket, he doesn't seem to know what to do and he is not the type to run around until he figures it out.

 

Overall: I think Fromm is the most NFL ready QB in this group of 4, and IMO, even more NFL ready than Tue.  People say he has a limited ceiling but I don't believe that to be the case (remember people said that about both Andrew Luck and Peyton Manning) but the ceiling is determined by how well he can read and recall defenses which is how all QBs who have long careers in the NFL keep improving and playing well year after year after year. and from all reports that is one of Fromm's greatest strengths.  Since he is not ready to be a day one starter because of his throwing mechanics and lack of an elite arm, he could slip to the 2nd round but I could see either the Raiders drafting him at 19 or the Patriots drafting him at 23 if he's available.  Which means, if the Colts want him, they will probably have to draft him at 13.  2 Side notes:  If you want to see a game to convince yourself that Fromm is an NFL QB, watch the Georgia Notre Dame game, Georgia won that game because of Fromm and his competitiveness and toughness.  Also, if you want to see another potential Colts pick watch the Georgia South Carolina game and you will see why Kinlaw would be a great 3T in the Colts D.

I think the same about his arm strength.  I simply do not see the issues that others have seen.  Frankly, I think some of the sports media who do analysis look at Fromm with negative bias, for whatever reason.

 

I would say to trade up with BUFF using pick 44 and 75, equal point value as 22, just ahead of NO and the PATS.  Getting Kinlaw at 13, Fromm at 22, then a solid player at 34 would be a solid draft.  Then we have rounds 4 and beyond for depth.

 

I think Fromm will be coveted by a team and will be drafted in round 1.  Not saying we should draft him, but if we want him I think we should expect him to be gone by pick 44.  

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10 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I think the same about his arm strength.  I simply do not see the issues that others have seen.  Frankly, I think some of the sports media who do analysis look at Fromm with negative bias, for whatever reason.

 

I would say to trade up with BUFF using pick 44 and 75, equal point value as 22, just ahead of NO and the PATS.  Getting Kinlaw at 13, Fromm at 22, then a solid player at 34 would be a solid draft.  Then we have rounds 4 and beyond for depth.

 

I think Fromm will be coveted by a team and will be drafted in round 1.  Not saying we should draft him, but if we want him I think we should expect him to be gone by pick 44.  

Fromm will probably get as much potential movement in the draft as any player after his combine and personal workouts are finished. If he nails it, he could be taken late first round. If he still has questions, he could very well slip to late second or early third round. He is the most interesting QB to watch of the top 6 as far as the pre-draft beauty pageant goes. 

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I have liked Fromm for a while. Glad to see Coffeedrinker show why I like him. If he isn’t our pick so be it but I just  like the fact the mental part won’t be too big for him. Having the playbook opened up and reading your progressions is what we are missing right now. 

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If I have time (and I don't know if I will, wife is no longer sick) I really want to post some clips of each to show some of the positives and negatives I saw.

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42 minutes ago, Hoose said:

Fromm will probably get as much potential movement in the draft as any player after his combine and personal workouts are finished. If he nails it, he could be taken late first round. If he still has questions, he could very well slip to late second or early third round. He is the most interesting QB to watch of the top 6 as far as the pre-draft beauty pageant goes. 

As CD posted, he may be the most NFL ready Qb in the draft.  Its really a matter as to whether or not teams are comfortable with his physicals.  I have also read elsewhere that his arm strength is hampered by lower body rotation, which can be improved by a Qb coach.  

 

Some team will be comfortable with his physicals, so he will likely be drafted in round 1, definitely prior to pick 44, IMO.

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11 minutes ago, DougDew said:

As CD posted, he may be the most NFL ready Qb in the draft.  Its really a matter as to whether or not teams are comfortable with his physicals.  I have also read elsewhere that his arm strength is hampered by lower body rotation, which can be improved by a Qb coach.  

 

Some team will be comfortable with his physicals, so he will likely be drafted in round 1, definitely prior to pick 44, IMO.

Most NFL ready of the 4 I "scouted".  I think Burrow is the most NFL ready QB in the draft.

 

Joe Burrow is one of the reasons why I have high hopes for Fromm.  Scouting reports on Burrow last year questioned his arm strength and he worked with a former NFL QB coach (I will try to find the article or podcast where I got that information) and worked on his throwing mechanics and now it's no longer a question.

 

People don't understand how much mechanics have to do with everything but it's huge... it's not going to take a QB who can only throw 55 yards all of a sudden throw for 70 yards but it will make sure that he can throw that 55 yards exactly the way he wants, whether he needs to put more air under it or more of a line drive.

 

Lastly, I look at reich's offense and 2018.  Luck had as much ability as anyone in the league to make (to use the current term) off platform plays but that is not the type of offense Reich uses.  So getting a QB that is better at scrambling and throwing than reading a defense from the pocket and throwing doesn't make sense to me.  And it's why I don't understand so many fan's love affair with... Love, even in his "awesome" 2018 standing in the pocket and reading the D as the play unfolded was not his strong suit.

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24 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Most NFL ready of the 4 I "scouted".  I think Burrow is the most NFL ready QB in the draft.

 

Joe Burrow is one of the reasons why I have high hopes for Fromm.  Scouting reports on Burrow last year questioned his arm strength and he worked with a former NFL QB coach (I will try to find the article or podcast where I got that information) and worked on his throwing mechanics and now it's no longer a question.

 

People don't understand how much mechanics have to do with everything but it's huge... it's not going to take a QB who can only throw 55 yards all of a sudden throw for 70 yards but it will make sure that he can throw that 55 yards exactly the way he wants, whether he needs to put more air under it or more of a line drive.

Development like Burrows are NOT the norm. In fact, Burrow is quite possibly the biggest outlier there has ever been. I personally cannot find another similar case of such huge improvement. And BTW his biggest improvement is actually with his accuracy, not so much with his arm-strength IMO. Fromm still is on the polar opposite spectrum of Burrow's pocket presence and mobility. 

 

Quote

Lastly, I look at reich's offense and 2018.  Luck had as much ability as anyone in the league to make (to use the current term) off platform plays but that is not the type of offense Reich uses.  So getting a QB that is better at scrambling and throwing than reading a defense from the pocket and throwing doesn't make sense to me.  And it's why I don't understand so many fan's love affair with... Love, even in his "awesome" 2018 standing in the pocket and reading the D as the play unfolded was not his strong suit.

No offense in the league is based on off-platform/off-schedule throws. This is a function of the QB, not of the offense. Every single coach in the league would prefer his QB to make throws from within the pocket, with set feet and perfect mechanics. Why? Because those are with set feet and perfect mechanics and those are throws that are within the structure and timing of the offense and are much easier and generally more accurate than off-platform throws. Off-platform/off-schedule throws(with exception of bootlegs) are not part of the schemed offense. Those are throws when the offense has broken down - when either the pocket has broken and the QB needs to leave and make a play on the move, or the receivers are covered on their initial routes and the QB needs to extend the play so he could either gain yards with his feet or allow his receivers to playmake/get open on secondary effort(again, because there are limits to pass protection past the initial 3-4 seconds of the route progressions. 

 

Majority of the offense of NFL teams is still within structure offense, but the best of the best QBs are able to playmake once that is taken off the table, while for the rest the play is pretty much over once the pocket breaks or if nothing is open within the structure of the offense. 

 

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2 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Joe Burrow is one of the reasons why I have high hopes for Fromm.  Scouting reports on Burrow last year questioned his arm strength and he worked with a former NFL QB coach (I will try to find the article or podcast where I got that information) and worked on his throwing mechanics and now it's no longer a question.

 

His mechanics weren't that bad. Having watched some of his limited time at OSU his Sophomore year, he didn't look to be far off. If he had gotten the nod over Haskins his Junior year he would have been fine. Ryan Day would have done for him that he did for Haskins.

 

The HUGE difference from Joe's junior tosenior year was the overall passing scheme/offense that he was in. Orgeron's offense for Joe's first year was awful. That offense was a cluster-f... and that was with the majority of the same players he had this year.

 

Insert Joe Brady, who revamped that whole LSU passing offense, and the rest is history. Sure, I believe Brady helped Joe on some of his passing mechanics, but that offense as whole, was just dismal until Brady got there last year. I'd wager, that had Brady not been on board this past year, Joe might have been slightly better than he was in 18', and Orgeron probably would have been fired by now. 

 

And about Fromm, if Fields had stayed in Georgia, he's undoubtedly the starter. Look up passing charts on Fromm from 2018 (his best year). Look at how he does going to his left, and up the field 15+ yards. It's inexcusable considering the talent he had around him.

 

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5 hours ago, MikeCurtis said:

Watching Gordons highlights he has plenty of accurate throws over 20 yards.....

 

Not any 40-50 yard throws that other QBs make....but plenty of 20-30 yard throws

 

Gordon has an unmatched release in this class...... amazingly quick

 

The ball is out....NOW

 

The other thing I like, is the ability to throw sidearm, seemlessly, if he has someone’s hands in his face...... 

 

Gordon needs a great deal of work, many people bring up his footwork, and he CLEARLY needs to add 10-15 lbs of muscle... but IMHO... this kid will be special in 2021

 

I think the Colts can fix the footwork

 

Also...... I don’t see any way that he lasts till 5th

 

If we go for Gordon he would get my 3rd round pick 


I wouldn’t say 16 completions over 20 yards as a lot. I’ve watched those throws and many were not that impressive. 
 

It may go with Leachs scheme but I need to see his overall arm strength and accuracy Beyond 20 yards, because in the NFL if you can’t make those throws the defense will take advantage of that 

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19 hours ago, stitches said:

Yeah, part of it is that Mike Leach offense. It has always been like that. But part of it is Gordon too. I think I read somewhere he had only 11 throws over 20 yards all year or something like that. Can someone confirm this? This is so extreme that I'm having hard time believing it. 

 

according to Washington state roster its 16 passes over 20 yards, which I saw a youtube video awhile back that showed them and they were less than impressive throws 

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On 2/12/2020 at 4:20 PM, Fisticuffs111 said:

Good stuff.

 

The more I watch them, the more I waffle on what I think of two guys in particular: Love and Gordon. Not that I have them in the same tier, I like Love more. But both have moments where they play like a top prospect and both have moments where they look, well, bad.

 

Both have huge weaknesses that I think are gonna be tough to overcome. Gordon’s footwork, and for some reason his lack of velocity stands out to me at times. And for Love, his field vision/reading coverage. 

 

Also, I’m very wary of Eason. I haven’t watched much of him but for some reason I just do not see I’m having success in the NFL. Guys that don’t handle pressure well, no thanks.

 

Agree with this...Gordon seems to be as much of a love/hate prospect as Love. Like you said...the lack of velocity really sticks out (I don't like his throwing motion either). The quick release is evident...but I think he is going to struggle making certain types of throws in the NFL. NFL players are bigger, faster, more athletic and have better awareness...and those windows close fast. 

 

Throw in the footwork...and I just don't see it. I wouldn't mind him as a backup...but he's not a guy I am banking the future on.

 

Love...I at least have hope he can improve his vision and field reading...because the arm talent is fantastic. And he does have some good mobility.

 

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6 hours ago, shastamasta said:

 

Agree with this...Gordon seems to be as much of a love/hate prospect as Love. Like you said...the lack of velocity really sticks out (I don't like his throwing motion either). The quick release is evident...but I think he is going to struggle making certain types of throws in the NFL. NFL players are bigger, faster, more athletic and have better awareness...and those windows close fast. 

 

Throw in the footwork...and I just don't see it. I wouldn't mind him as a backup...but he's not a guy I am banking the future on.

 

Love...I at least have hope he can improve his vision and field reading...because the arm talent is fantastic. And he does have some good mobility.

 

 

Take vision and field vision and just pure anticipation over arm talent 10 out of 10 times. Luck's arm? It was questioned. Manning's arm? Ditto. Brady? Ditto. Brees? Ditto.

 

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13 hours ago, BleedBlu8792 said:

 

His mechanics weren't that bad. Having watched some of his limited time at OSU his Sophomore year, he didn't look to be far off. If he had gotten the nod over Haskins his Junior year he would have been fine. Ryan Day would have done for him that he did for Haskins.

 

The HUGE difference from Joe's junior tosenior year was the overall passing scheme/offense that he was in. Orgeron's offense for Joe's first year was awful. That offense was a cluster-f... and that was with the majority of the same players he had this year.

 

Insert Joe Brady, who revamped that whole LSU passing offense, and the rest is history. Sure, I believe Brady helped Joe on some of his passing mechanics, but that offense as whole, was just dismal until Brady got there last year. I'd wager, that had Brady not been on board this past year, Joe might have been slightly better than he was in 18', and Orgeron probably would have been fired by now. 

 

And about Fromm, if Fields had stayed in Georgia, he's undoubtedly the starter. Look up passing charts on Fromm from 2018 (his best year). Look at how he does going to his left, and up the field 15+ yards. It's inexcusable considering the talent he had around him.

 

 

I've spoken about Fromm before. The things he excels at are traits all great QBs have. The greatest QBs didn't necessarily have 'arm talent'. Certainly not the guys in Indy.

 

Fromm's combine and workouts will be telling. If he does what Luck did during his workouts (remember the 70yd throw?) then I think he'd be a better investment in the 2nd round (paired with a WR in the 1st) than say Love at 13.

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4 hours ago, Colt.45 said:

 

I've spoken about Fromm before. The things he excels at are traits all great QBs have. The greatest QBs didn't necessarily have 'arm talent'. Certainly not the guys in Indy.

 

Fromm's combine and workouts will be telling. If he does what Luck did during his workouts (remember the 70yd throw?) then I think he'd be a better investment in the 2nd round (paired with a WR in the 1st) than say Love at 13.

 

Those "other" QB's could make the throws on both sides of the field and up the field without much issue. As I stated in the post you quoted, go and look at Fromm's passing charts from 2018, which is his best year. His play dropped off bad this past year. He's bad throwing to his left, and anything longer than 15 yards, his %'s drop tremendously. That's with playing with multiple 5-star guys and one of the best OL's in college football. I don't think his football IQ is that great, nor is his attributes as a passer, or Kirby would have tailored the offense more to him instead of being more run oriented. Again, if Fields had stayed in Georgia, NO ONE is talking about Fromm right now. 

 

I would be indifferent if the Colts grabbed him in the 3rd, but anything earlier than that, I think the pick could have been used for much better value. I would be fine if he happened to drop to the 4th and the Colts snagged him then, but I'm pretty sure someone will take him before then. 

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5 hours ago, Colt.45 said:

 

I've spoken about Fromm before. The things he excels at are traits all great QBs have. The greatest QBs didn't necessarily have 'arm talent'. Certainly not the guys in Indy.

 

Fromm's combine and workouts will be telling. If he does what Luck did during his workouts (remember the 70yd throw?) then I think he'd be a better investment in the 2nd round (paired with a WR in the 1st) than say Love at 13.


To my amateur eye, the easiest way to judge arm strength is the sideline throw to the far hash. Peyton Manning had more than enough velocity to make that pass look easy. With Fromm, I think he really struggles with getting enough speed on that throw in particular. I haven’t really seen him put that on a frozen rope — it tends to loft and take a while to get there, which I think is a concern at the next level. 

 

He does throw a beautiful fade and has an advanced feel for using back shoulder throws. Great placement to drop the ball in a bucket.

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Fromm has Patriots written all over him. McDaniels is salivating at the mouth to get his hands on Fromm and not in the way that some might think. 

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6 hours ago, Zoltan said:

 

Thanks for the link first. A lot of the charting confirms what we've seen on film - struggled under pressure. Flashes of brilliance on the move, but forced way too many throws in compromised positions. Trouble reading dropping defenders. And his receiving corps didn't help either. A lot of INTs in the intermediate range(dropping defenders)... 

 

I think it's really hard to post great numbers in a season like the one he just had. He didn't have a good season, and the numbers show it too. There is no two ways about it - if you are drafting him high, it will be more about what he can be than what he is now(i.e. what he did last season). It's more about traits than what he will be able to do if you put him on the field right now. I've said numerous times that if you draft him, the bet is as much on him as it is on the coaching staff being able to coach him up. 

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Brett Veach on Ross Tucker podcast talking about scouting Patrick Mahomes:

https://www.podcastone.com/episode/Chiefs-GM-Brett-Veach

 

(they start talking about Mahomes at about the 14:45 mark, I will skip some things and will quote some things too)

Quote

 

-they were continuously watching him throughout the season 

 

-about scouting him - Ross Tucker asks him about Mahomes being hard to evaluate because of the wild plays he was making and his rawness - "It just comes to the amount of work that you do... when you watch the tape and you see the ridiculous throws... actually if you work through what he did on tape ... now listen, the mechanics weren't ideal, but he had the unique ability to throw from any platform and when you have a quick release and a strong arm and you can throw off many platforms that's going to negate a lot of deficiencies and it trumps a lot of things. And then you throw in the factor that he's athletic and he's mobile, he has a really strong lower built. He's almost built like a RB... He's got thick legs, very agile, uncanny ad-lib ability. Then you throw in the instincts. When you get through the tape you realize with the footwork[not great] this guy can compensate for all that stuff because he's athletic, he's strong in the lower core, he has a freaky arm, he can throw from different platforms. You realize that a lot of the bad throws, the bad decisions were just a case of him trying to do too much. You know you play in that conference and he was undermanned most of the games he played and before you blink sometimes they are down 14-17-21 nothing. There were a lot of times he just didn't take the easy checkdowns, he didn't take easy throws because I think he felt like it was his responsibility to do everything and I think he put a lot on his shoulders. But you know... it's a lot easier to coach that out as opposed to... I mean, you cannot teach a guy how to do some of the things he does, but you can teach him situational football, understanding of when to take the checkdown and live to fight another battle, those types of things. But that was just something we felt would be relatively easy and then you throw him in with coach Ried and his record speaks for itself in regards with what he can do with a QB. I just felt like there was so much ability to work with here and if you got him in the hands of Andy Ried it would be special.

 

And then you bring him in for the interviews ... the nail in the coffin was ... because he's so athletic and makes so many wow throws, I don't think people realize ... this kid is extremely smart. I mean this guy is not one of those guys that has decent football intelligence, he has rare football intelligence. That's why he can do the things he does - he's blessed in every way - rare football intelligence and rare instincts. We got excited and that's why we made the move we did and we are blessed it all worked out. "

 

 

I feel very similarly about Jordan Love - great athlete, great mobility, can throw off any platform, very strong arm, makes some ridiculous throws. Was forcing a ton of throws because he knew he had to drag his team forward with the horrible talent around him. Match him up with Frank Reich, who himself has experience developing a young talented QB in Wentz, and let him work on his decisionmaking and focusing his talent in a more productive/efficient direction. 

 

But the last part, about his football smarts, is the part we won't really know anything about, but Reich and Ballard will have the chance to see on what level he is. It will be very important for his evaluation - how smart is he, what's his understanding of football concepts, can he remember plays and walk you through them and run them, can he handle the mental aspects of being a QB in the league? Is there anything off-field to concern you? Etc. Those are things Ballard, Reich and Brian Decker will have to answer before you invest big draft assets into him. 

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KC was very smart and they didn’t try to change how Mahomes did  things. They let him do what was working for him. Watching his college tape he looks the exact same in KC with all the wild throws.

 

That Mahomes stuff sounds a lot like Love. Hopefully the kid has a high football IQ.

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On 2/12/2020 at 2:33 PM, throwing BBZ said:

 

 

 A bunch of scary bad,  braindead throws. 

Yet every single one of them have been made by every QB in the league

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On 2/13/2020 at 1:31 AM, stitches said:

Yeah, part of it is that Mike Leach offense. It has always been like that. But part of it is Gordon too. I think I read somewhere he had only 11 throws over 20 yards all year or something like that. Can someone confirm this? This is so extreme that I'm having hard time believing it. 


Four verts is also an air raid staple though — maybe only trailing mesh and WR screens. If that stat is accurate, it’s probably an indication that Gordon has some arm strength issues or struggles with deep ball placement.

 

My biggest question with Gordon — or Hurts, or really any of the third round or later round QB prospects— is if he’s a better long-term prospect than Chad Kelly. In Gordon’s case, He’s a 5th year senior, only has one year starting experience in the PAC 12, and has some size/arm talent questions. I like the release and production but nothing else about that resume really stands out. He had a good Senior Bowl game but mediocre week of practice.
 

I’m not a Kelly truther but he’s still just 25, had two years starting experience in the SEC, a couple of years of NFL roster experience, and by all indications has a good enough arm by NFL standards. I think it’s pretty clear that Kelly’s likely the minimum threshold that a QB prospect will have to clear to be considered draftable by the Colts.

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On 2/13/2020 at 1:22 PM, Hoose said:

Fromm will probably get as much potential movement in the draft as any player after his combine and personal workouts are finished.

could say something similar about jordan love too imo

 

a great combine could put him in the top 10, if he bombs that could drop him to the second round

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1 hour ago, stitches said:

Brett Veach on Ross Tucker podcast talking about scouting Patrick Mahomes:

https://www.podcastone.com/episode/Chiefs-GM-Brett-Veach

 

(they start talking about Mahomes at about the 14:45 mark, I will skip some things and will quote some things too)

 

I feel very similarly about Jordan Love - great athlete, great mobility, can throw off any platform, very strong arm, makes some ridiculous throws. Was forcing a ton of throws because he knew he had to drag his team forward with the horrible talent around him. Match him up with Frank Reich, who himself has experience developing a young talented QB in Wentz, and let him work on his decisionmaking and focusing his talent in a more productive/efficient direction. 

 

But the last part, about his football smarts, is the part we won't really know anything about, but Reich and Ballard will have the chance to see on what level he is. It will be very important for his evaluation - how smart is he, what's his understanding of football concepts, can he remember plays and walk you through them and run them, can he handle the mental aspects of being a QB in the league? Is there anything off-field to concern you? Etc. Those are things Ballard, Reich and Brian Decker will have to answer before you invest big draft assets into him. 

Big differences between Mahomes and Love though.  Mahomes still showed improvement each year, Love has not.  And when you look at 2018 Love, he still made a lot of the same bad throws, the difference is, in 2018 Love's receivers bailed him out a lot.  In 2019 they did not.  Also, Utah State did not find themselves in a hole very often and games like Wake Forest they should have won if Love had not "tried to do too much".

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41 minutes ago, CantBeStopped said:

Yet every single one of them have been made by every QB in the league

Bone headed plays are not a huge red flag because, as you indicate, all QBs have them... the same bone headed plays through out two years as a starter is a red flag though.

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42 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Big differences between Mahomes and Love though.  Mahomes still showed improvement each year, Love has not.  And when you look at 2018 Love, he still made a lot of the same bad throws, the difference is, in 2018 Love's receivers bailed him out a lot.  In 2019 they did not.  Also, Utah State did not find themselves in a hole very often and games like Wake Forest they should have won if Love had not "tried to do too much".

I mean no two situations are 1:1 carbon copies. We are talking about general similarities. Love suffered loss of talent Mahomes didn't suffer. I also disagree about his receivers bailing him out in 2018. There was nothing to bail him out for in 2018. He was a much safer and much more in control player in 2018 because he had some relatively good weapons and he knew he didn't have to do everything by himself. He also had an offensive head coach who actually knew what he was doing, unlike in 2019. I've never seen a high end QB work with such poor supporting case that could rarely separate and was dropping passes left and right. Fair point that he didn't improve unlike Mahomes, but again - they didn't deal with the exact same situations, I'm not sure there is a world in which Love would have improved for his last season with that surrounding talent. 

 

The Wake Forest game is weird, because he made a lot of mistakes there, but he also kept them in the game for longer than their talent suggested they can keep up with them. Also there are plenty of games where they actually fell behind big and he was pressing a ton trying to make things happen. Take the LSU game as a perfect example. He was making some exceptional throws in the beginning of the game and was moving their offense really well against a team with 3 first round DBs covering his horrible WRs who dropped 2 TD passes if I'm not mistaken. After which they fell behind and he started forcing it, which resulted in several picks and overall poor performance for the rest of the game. 

 

The discrepancy between Love's first half vs Love's second half performances is kind of eye-popping and there is a reason for it. By PFF his rating was 85 in first halves and it was in the 50s in second halves of games(I'm citing this by memory, apologies for not being able to find the exact numbers)... From what I've seen he was forcing things a lot this last season. 

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2 hours ago, Chloe6124 said:

KC was very smart and they didn’t try to change how Mahomes did  things. They let him do what was working for him. Watching his college tape he looks the exact same in KC with all the wild throws.

 

That Mahomes stuff sounds a lot like Love. Hopefully the kid has a high football IQ.

The big difference people forget about Love and Mahommes is Andy Reid and Hill.  Ried has built that offence around Mahommes. I am not sure that Riech's idea of an offence would fit Love's skill set. Also Hill is a one of a kind player.  His elite speed allows Mahommes to make the plays he does. We have seen when Hill is not in the line up, it affects Mahommes play and thr KC offence as a while.  I suspect that Mahommes greatness will take a hit as Kelce and Hill decline. They r special players 

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40 minutes ago, stitches said:

I mean no two situations are 1:1 carbon copies. We are talking about general similarities.

I'm talking similarities as well and there are big difference.

40 minutes ago, stitches said:

 

Love suffered loss of talent Mahomes didn't suffer. I also disagree about his receivers bailing him out in 2018. There was nothing to bail him out for in 2018. He was a much safer and much more in control player in 2018 because he had some relatively good weapons and he knew he didn't have to do everything by himself. He also had an offensive head coach who actually knew what he was doing, unlike in 2019. I've never seen a high end QB work with such poor supporting case that could rarely separate and was dropping passes left and right. Fair point that he didn't improve unlike Mahomes, but again - they didn't deal with the exact same situations, I'm not sure there is a world in which Love would have improved for his last season with that surrounding talent. 

 

The Wake Forest game is weird, because he made a lot of mistakes there, but he also kept them in the game for longer than their talent suggested they can keep up with them. Also there are plenty of games where they actually fell behind big and he was pressing a ton trying to make things happen. Take the LSU game as a perfect example. He was making some exceptional throws in the beginning of the game and was moving their offense really well against a team with 3 first round DBs covering his horrible WRs who dropped 2 TD passes if I'm not mistaken. After which they fell behind and he started forcing it, which resulted in several picks and overall poor performance for the rest of the game. 

 

The discrepancy between Love's first half vs Love's second half performances is kind of eye-popping and there is a reason for it. By PFF his rating was 85 in first halves and it was in the 50s in second halves of games(I'm citing this by memory, apologies for not being able to find the exact numbers)... From what I've seen he was forcing things a lot this last season. 

You know the common theme for people who like Love from fans and draft pundits?  All of them make excuses for Love's lack of performance and blame everyone except for Love.  When, if you actually watch his games and not his highlights, it's pretty plain to see that Love needs to shoulder a lot of the blame.  I'm sure if the Colts draft Love and he doesn't play well, the excuses will continue.

 

Lastly, if you want to disagree about his receivers bailing him out on 2018, be my guest, but that just shows me that you are not looking at Love objectively.

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2 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

The big difference people forget about Love and Mahommes is Andy Reid and Hill.  Ried has built that offence around Mahommes. I am not sure that Riech's idea of an offence would fit Love's skill set. Also Hill is a one of a kind player.  His elite speed allows Mahommes to make the plays he does. We have seen when Hill is not in the line up, it affects Mahommes play and thr KC offence as a while.  I suspect that Mahommes greatness will take a hit as Kelce and Hill decline. They r special players 

Whenever a team drafts a QB they should always build the team around that Qb skill set. That is why QB are not flopping as much as in the past. Coached are getting smart and incorporating what they did in college. Lamar Jackson is a good example. The ones where coaches try and change them are the ones that fail.

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1 minute ago, Coffeedrinker said:

I'm talking similarities as well and there are big difference.

You know the common theme for people who like Love from fans and draft pundits?  All of them make excuses for Love's lack of performance and blame everyone except for Love.  When, if you actually watch his games and not his highlights, it's pretty plain to see that Love needs to shoulder a lot of the blame.  I'm sure if the Colts draft Love and he doesn't play well, the excuses will continue.

 

Lastly, if you want to disagree about his receivers bailing him out on 2018, be my guest, but that just shows me that you are not looking at Love objectively.

If you watch or read any of his interviews he actually takes all the blame. He talks about balancing risk and playing smarter. He knows he tried to do to much and admits it. That he is self aware is a good start.

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17 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

I'm talking similarities as well and there are big difference.You know the common theme for people who like Love from fans and draft pundits?  All of them make excuses for Love's lack of performance and blame everyone except for Love.  When, if you actually watch his games and not his highlights, it's pretty plain to see that Love needs to shoulder a lot of the blame.  I'm sure if the Colts draft Love and he doesn't play well, the excuses will continue.

 

There is a thin line between excuses and providing context that paints a better picture of what is happening. I've broken down Love's weaknesses multiple times on this forum and I definitely do not excuse his boneheaded throws or his inconsistent footwork or his blindspots in reading defenses. I've said multiple times that his lack of weapons and the quality of his team don't excuse his bad decisions. You can acknowledge he was put in a bad situation and still say he needed to do better with it.

 

Where I break with you is when you completely disregard his situation and what it means for his prospects going forward. The reason it's important to pin point context like this is because it helps you figure out if his problems are likely to persist or if you can coach him up on it. For example, IMO you can coach up his footwork inconsistency. IMO you can coach up his decisionmaking and forcing of throws. My biggest worry with him is his blindspot with dropping defenders. This is one I'm not sure he will be able to easily fix, especially if he doesn't have the football smarts and ability to process the game. There is a reason why I've said if we draft him I expect him to sit the first year... it's not because I don't see his weaknesses... there are clear areas where he needs work to be able to even step a foot on an NFL field. I just think with the right coaching he can get there and be a very good QB in the league. 

 

Quote

Lastly, if you want to disagree about his receivers bailing him out on 2018, be my guest, but that just shows me that you are not looking at Love objectively.

Yep, we have to agree to disagree on this one. 

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On Mahomes, I don’t think his football intelligence/general intelligence can be overstated.

 

That’s why I keep coming back to interviews/white board stuff for Love, like stitches mentioned. It’s a big hang up for me in terms of what I want at QB. 

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8 minutes ago, Fisticuffs111 said:

On Mahomes, I don’t think his football intelligence/general intelligence can be overstated.

 

That’s why I keep coming back to interviews/white board stuff for Love, like stitches mentioned. It’s a big hang up for me in terms of what I want at QB. 

This is where I'm not sure he's up to par with a starting level QB and all my excitement with his other tools and traits might be for naught. I've heard several interviews with him and while there isn't anything to make me think he's not smart, I wouldn't say he's impressed me much, but that doesn't mean much... I will trust Ballard and Co. with whatever they decide... 

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We will probably never know how Love does in interviews. Maybe some stuff will leak. If ballard passes on him I think it’s safe to say there was probably something in the interview process he was concerned about. There is nothing in his traits the team should be concerned with. Plus everything we have heard about his work ethic is top notch. 

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1 hour ago, Chloe6124 said:

If you watch or read any of his interviews he actually takes all the blame. He talks about balancing risk and playing smarter. He knows he tried to do to much and admits it. That he is self aware is a good start.

I know you have mentioned this numerous times and I know you think it's a good thing, but it's really a cop out answer and it's not a good thing.  It's bad for a few reasons; 1, he is throwing his teammates under the bus, he is basically saying he could not win with his team so he tried to do beyond his role to make up for their deficiencies.  It's also bad because he thinks that is a valid reason to not see coverages and defenders while "trying to do to much."  Lastly, how many more games would they have won if he had not tried to do to much?  

 

And while being aware of the issue is a good first step but that is all it is.  Just like I'm sure JB is aware of his hesitancy to go deep and there were games where he looked to improve upon it like the TB game, but when the game on the line he reverted back to his hesitancy.

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On 2/12/2020 at 1:17 PM, Coffeedrinker said:

I was also afraid this was going to happen.  I really wanted this thread to discuss all 4 QBs, not just the highs and lows of Jordan Love.

 

Anyone have different or same thoughts on Eason/Fromm or Gordon?

I'm still very very eager to see Fromm throw. I really think he's got more arm strength than he's getting credit for. just watched a video of Chris Simms interviewing him and Fromm said he really developed his throwing from playing baseball, winging it without stepping through. you can see that when he's playing. 

another thought. go back and look at his 2018 tape when he had receivers he was more comfortable with verus his 2019 tape. he got off a lot of deep throws, with a lot of accuracy.

Also, Simms asked him who he patterned himself after. said he watched Peyton, Brady, others, but tried to emulate Brees. I swear i see a lot of him in there.

did go back and watch more Eason. he definitely seemed to get the yips a bit under pressure and he's gotta ditch that reverse spin move to get out of trouble.

however, he's another guy who hasn't had a ton of reps under fire. I still think he's really interesting too.

i love watching Gordon play, but I think he needs a lot of refinement. Also want to see him throw against the others. i think he leads guys and anticipates incredibly well, but i'm not sure some of those throws work against NFL windows. 

like that TD pass he threw in the Senior Bowl. that was a RIDICULOUS throw. Most coaches would bench a dude for that, but he pulled it off.

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