Watched every game I could find of Love, Eason, Fromm and Gordon

[Coffeedrinker]

I will start by saying there are some great people on youtube.  They split the games so you can see every play by a QB in an entire game in 8-15 minutes.  And this past weekend my wife got sick, so as I was hanging around to take care of her, I watched every game available of the four QBs.  I did not review Burrow, Tua, Herbert or Hurts, the first 3 because I think they will be gone by pick 13 and Hurts because I think the idea that he has a future as an NFL Qb is media hype because he seems like a hard working, likeable kid but he just does not seem like a QB to me.  I will say upfront, some strengths or weaknesses cannot be seen on game film, such as leadership, work ethic, ability and desire to improve, etc.

 

Anthony Gordon.

Positives - He has great field vision.  People talk about he's a product of the system, etc, etc.  And it's true, in another system he would not have thrown for 5500+ yards and 48 TDs.  On the flip side though, there are not many QBs would have have thrown for 5500+ yards and 48 TDs in Leach's system especially not 1st year starters.  I believe he would have been successful in many other systems as well.  Yes his receivers were wide open but when you watch multiple games those receivers were not always the first read (like some other Qbs I reviewed), he scans the field quickly, makes a decision and pulls the trigger.  Which leads me to his next positive his release.  The beauty of a quick release is that is does not give defenders time to react.  Tied in with his field vision is he seems to not only see the entire field very quickly but he processes that information quickly.  Many times I saw him scan the field then come back to his 1st read again, he was able to spot him instantly and throw the ball.  Lastly, his anticipation is top notch.  because of his ability to see the field and process the information, not only does he do an excellent job of anticipating where his receivers will be but also he does a great job of anticipating what the defenders will do, so because of that he is able to throw his receivers open on many occasions or put the ball where only his receiver can make a play on it.  One last point on his receivers being wide open, for Love people like to blame the talent of his receivers... Gordon did not have any real talented receivers/TEs/Rbs either. they were open a lot because of the offensive system and because Gordon threw them open.

 

Weaknesses - Has not footwork... at all.  The coaches did him a disservice by not working on his throwing fundamentals.  I don't mean his throwing motion but how to drop back and move while keeping the proper foot spacing and balance so the body can be in the correct position to throw.  Mobility is lacking.  He can move around in the pocket ok but that is about it, he seems to trip over his own feet when he tries to scramble.  No feel in the pocket.  He has good peripheral vision so he move when he sees the rush but he doesn't sense with the rush is coming.  That was evident on several occasions when he was sacked standing flat footed.  He makes some boneheaded decisions but whether they are bone headed decisions or lack of experience decisions I do not know.

 

Overall, I think Gordon is an excellent pro prospect but he is at least a year away from being ready to play an NFL game and probably two years from being counted on as a starter.  And that is assuming that A QB coach can work with him and he takes to coaching and is able to apply what he learns.  That, combined with his 1 year as a starter in a college system that QBs have not transitioned well in the NFL, his slight stature at 6'2 199lbs, Gordon will probably not be drafted before the 5th round.

 

Jacob Eason

At first glance you wonder why Eason is not considered in the top with Burrow, Tua and Herbert but as you watch entire games it becomes obvious.

Positives:  IMO, Eason is the best QB in the draft at operating under center.  I wish I would have kept stats but he looked incredible when operating under center... his drop backs were smooth and consistent, he scanned the field well while dropping back, he made a decision, planted his back foot and then had near perfect form in his throwing motion.... every time.  His arm.  Not just his arm strength but his throwing motion is nice and fluid and consistent, combined with his strong arm he can place the ball exactly where he wants, anywhere on the field, consistently.  His mobility... yeas, I now a lot of people with disagree but he is a fluid, natural runner who can pick up yards with his legs when he needs to but he only has adequate speed.  Plus he's a big, strong QB who will plow into the line to pick up a first down on 3rd/4th and short.

 

negatives:  He does not do a good job of handling pressure.  His first move when the rush was coming was to spin backwards and roll left.  In the first couple of games of the season that worked but it was obvious teams learned that was his move and really shut it down in the later games in the season.  Since that seemed to be his only move to combat the rush, he will not get away with that in the NFL.  And, even when he did escape the rush he was not good throwing while running to his left.  His decision making.  Several times you could see he had two receivers at two levels, the closer receiver would be very open, the receiver at the deeper level would be well covered, rather than throwing to the short receiver for a good gain, he would try to force the ball into the deeper receiver with very mixed results.

 

Overall:  I think Eason will be the 4th QB taken in the draft after Burrow, Tua (assuming he passes his physical) and Herbert.  Eason, though reminds me a lot of Jeff George... all the tools and ability in the world it just seems something is lacking between the ears.  I will be surprised if he stays in the NFL past his rookie contract.

 

Jordan Love:  This one is going to get me the most hate mail because a lot of people on this forum have bought the hype that he is Patrick Mahomes esqe and his poor play is a product of his team and coaches.  And it is somewhat true but not totally.

 

Positives:  He is a smooth athlete with a good combination of touch and and power and accuracy on a lot of his throws.  He is at his best when he's rolling to his right and throwing on the run.  He seems to have good pocket awareness and can feel the rush around him even if he doesn't see it.  Does not seem to panic under pressure.  Has some escapability in him to extend plays when the pass protection breaks down.  He seemed to have good control of the offense.  Seems to be very competitive

 

negatives:  He cannot throw left.  When you watch Love throw ahead or to the right, he has pretty good form (he relies on his arm too much but overall his form is fine) but when he throws to his his mechanics break down and his throw accuracy and velocity drop considerably.  He is not good at presnap reads.  Several of his interceptions were not because his receivers couldn't get open or because they had not separation, they were because his misread things at the LOS and threw the ball immediately after the snap.  The rest of his INTs (not counting a couple that were in the desperation time towards the end of the game) were because he has a blind spot to underneath coverage.  He stares down his receiver and the underneath coverage slides over and he is unaware of it.   I'm not basing this on just the Wake Forest game but if you want to see multiple examples of this watch that game.  He had was appears to be an impressive stat line with over 400 yards and 3 TDs but he also threw 3 INTs (2 of them were all because of Love, not the receivers, 1 was with 17 seconds left in the game and they were trailing) and could have easily had 2 more INTs if the defenders had not dropped the easy INTs.

 

Overall, I do want to point out that even though the negative paragraph is longer than the positive paragraph, if you read closely, I do list more positives than negatives.  Love definitely has some tools to work with but he does not work to be ready for the NFL.  And personally I think his ceiling is about a Dak Prescott level.. someone who, if he's with a talented team will have some impressive wins but won't be the type of QB to win games when everything is on the line and he needs to outplay and out think the defense.  It's funny after watching these games films Friday night and Saturday morning, I think watched the XFL on Saturday.  So I'm watching the Houston Roughnecks and out trots, Indy's own practice squad king, P Walker as the starting QB, so I'm watching him play and he's doing well but I keep think that he reminds me of someone... then it hit me, Love plays just like Walker, same pocket movement, same throwing motion/style (Love does not pat the ball like Walker which is why Love may be able to make a career in the NFL), same arm strength, same running style and oddly enough same break down of mechanics when throwing left.  Personally I think Love is a 3rd round talent that will be drafted higher and may sneak into the 1st round when team trades up to pick him towards the end of the round.

 

Jake Fromm:

Positives:  Since I saw a lot of the positives from Fromm that have been discussed... accuracy, touch, anticipation on his throws, understanding of the offense, head for the game, etc.  I won't go into great detail about that.  Some of the positives I saw that don't seem to get talked about much.  His competitiveness, to me this really popped out in watching his games and it's one of his best attributes.  One of the ways I think this came through was on 3rd and long (6 yards or greater).  All the Qbs above on 3rd and long, the majority of their throws were little 2 or 3 yard dump passes hoping the receiver makes a play.  The majority of Fromm's passes on 3rd and long were near or past the sticks.  That is someone that wants to keep the drive going not just playing it safe or being a game manager.  His does not have scrambling ability like Wilson or Prescott or Watson, but he chooses to run at smart times and has enough speed to make positive yards and first downs when the team needs it.  He can make accurate throws from different arm angles.

 

Negatives:  His arm strength is not elite but I would classify it is above average and I think it could move into the good category with proper mechanics.  He does not consistently engage his hips and core when throwing, he's more of a step and lean thrower.  But he made multiple 20-25 yard outs throws from the far hash both to the left and right side while fitting the ball into a tight window.  He has enough arm strength for the NFL.  The only other real negative I see in his game is if one rusher is pressing the pocket he can handle it well, if two are pressuring the pocket, he doesn't seem to know what to do and he is not the type to run around until he figures it out.

 

Overall: I think Fromm is the most NFL ready QB in this group of 4, and IMO, even more NFL ready than Tue.  People say he has a limited ceiling but I don't believe that to be the case (remember people said that about both Andrew Luck and Peyton Manning) but the ceiling is determined by how well he can read and recall defenses which is how all QBs who have long careers in the NFL keep improving and playing well year after year after year. and from all reports that is one of Fromm's greatest strengths.  Since he is not ready to be a day one starter because of his throwing mechanics and lack of an elite arm, he could slip to the 2nd round but I could see either the Raiders drafting him at 19 or the Patriots drafting him at 23 if he's available.  Which means, if the Colts want him, they will probably have to draft him at 13.  2 Side notes:  If you want to see a game to convince yourself that Fromm is an NFL QB, watch the Georgia Notre Dame game, Georgia won that game because of Fromm and his competitiveness and toughness.  Also, if you want to see another potential Colts pick watch the Georgia South Carolina game and you will see why Kinlaw would be a great 3T in the Colts D.

[CR91]

Excellent breakdown. Well done.

[coltsblue1844]

I've hoped that we could pick Fromm with a 2nd round pick since half way through our season!

 

 

[stitches]

Damn, that's a lot of work you put into those QB. Props for it. I agree with a lot of your evaluations with the main difference being in degree of the strength/weakness(example "Love can't throw left" - I think I pointed out that he does have trouble with his footwork and throwing off his back foot on some throws to the left in another thread, but I don't think it's as dire of a situation as you are describing) and the level of emphasis on some of them which probably leads to different draft range evaluations but overall I think you've done a great job capturing the essence of most of those QBs.

 

My biggest disagreement is about Fromm's arm strength. I don't think it's above average and I think you know it, which is why you put it as a weakness. If it was above average it wouldn't be a weakness IMO. If you start listing NfL starting QBs by arm strength I think you will quickly realize that there is no chance in hell his arm strength would rank anywhere close to the top ...20 even I would say, let alone top 15.

 

Anyways very good write up and thanks for your effort. I enjoyed reading it.

[MikeCurtis]

Great write up

 

 

[CR91]

14 minutes ago, stitches said:

Damn, that's a lot of work you put into those QB. Props for it. I agree with a lot of your evaluations with the main difference being in degree of the strength/weakness(example "Love can't throw left" - I think I pointed out that he does have trouble with his footwork and throwing off his back foot on some throws to the left in another thread, but I don't think it's as dire of a situation as you are describing) and the level of emphasis on some of them which probably leads to different draft range evaluations but overall I think you've done a great job capturing the essence of most of those QBs.

 

My biggest disagreement is about Fromm's arm strength. I don't think it's above average and I think you know it, which is why you put it as a weakness. If it was above average it wouldn't be a weakness IMO. If you start listing NfL starting QBs by arm strength I think you will quickly realize that there is no chance in hell his arm strength would rank anywhere close to the top ...20 even I would say, let alone top 15.

 

Anyways very good write up and thanks for your effort. I enjoyed reading it.

 

Being able to throw deep isn't about arm strength. It's velocity from your hips, footwork, and touch. Look at Brady and Brees. They don't have cannons, but they know how to throw deep. 

[stitches]

9 minutes ago, CR91 said:

 

Being able to throw deep isn't about arm strength. It's velocity from your hips, footwork, and touch. Look at Brady and Brees. They don't have cannons, but they know how to throw deep. 

As I've said in other threads it's not about throwing deep. Almost any QB can throw 50 yards downfield in clean pocket with perfect platform... There's more to it. There are throws where you need velocity and throwing it on a rope 30 yards, there are throws where you have to make a throw off platform, or on the move, or across the body, or to give the ball some extra air and arc on the 50 yarder in order to allow the receiver to get there in time, etc. It's about adding additional layers of difficulty and possibilities in certain situations. Some QBs have the physical talent to do all of those, some cannot do most.

[twfish]

Although I do not agree on some of your takes I do greatly appreciate you taking time to watch these players and do a write up on them!

[LockeDown]

5 minutes ago, stitches said:

As I've said in other threads it's not about throwing deep. Almost any QB can throw 50 yards downfield in clean pocket with perfect platform... There's more to it. There are throws where you need velocity and throwing it on a rope 30 yards, there are throws where you have to make a throw off platform, or on the move, or across the body, or to give the ball some extra air and arc on the 50 yarder in order to allow the receiver to get there in time, etc. It's about adding additional layers of difficulty and possibilities in certain situations. Some QBs have the physical talent to do all of those, some cannot do most.

I don’t think off platform should be our focus. I think good form, technique should be. 

[stitches]

2 minutes ago, LockeDown said:

I don’t think off platform should be our focus. I think good form, technique should be. 

The thing is, good form and technique(especially footwork) can be taught and improved. The physical talent and athleticism that allows you to make off-platform plays mostly cannot be taught. BTW for Love IMO the problem is more inconsistent footwork, rather than a complete mess of a footwork(I think @Coffeedrinker captured Anthony Gordon's issue perfectly here - with Gordon it's not inconsistency in footwork... it's consistently horrible/non-existent). Love has some beautiful picture perfect drop backs, but he just gets lazy and messy with it on some occasions. 

[Coffeedrinker]

41 minutes ago, stitches said:

 "Love can't throw left" - I think I pointed out that he does have trouble with his footwork and throwing off his back foot on some throws to the left in another thread, but I don't think it's as dire of a situation as you are describing)

Since I "liked" your post I won't quote the entire thing just the parts we disagree.  The discussion we had before about throwing left was mostly regarding rolling left and throwing and you posted several clips of where he did it.  But what I'm talking about is standing in the pocket, turning and throwing left.  Again, I wish I kept stats but I believe he threw more INTs to the left then he had completions.  That is pretty dire.  As I mentioned though I think it's a form thing and is correctable.

41 minutes ago, stitches said:

 

My biggest disagreement is about Fromm's arm strength. I don't think it's above average and I think you know it, which is why you put it as a weakness. If it was above average it wouldn't be a weakness IMO. If you start listing NfL starting QBs by arm strength I think you will quickly realize that there is no chance in hell his arm strength would rank anywhere close to the top ...20 even I would say, let alone top 15.

One your ranking of above average is not logical.  There are a lot more than 32 QBs in the league and some above average arm QBs are starting over their stronger armed backups.  Last year there were 70 Qbs who threw passes during the regular season last year, his arm would put him in the top 35 (going by above average) how is that NOT a weakness.  Especially when you factor in he's not a scrambling QB which means he is going to have to rely on his arm to get him out of trouble when he's in trouble and since he can't flick his wrist and fling 50 yards down field that is a definite weakness.

[FalseStart]

Good article

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/news/2020-nfl-draft-lessons-learned-from-scouting-hits-and-misses-from-past-draft-classes/

[stitches]

11 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Since I "liked" your post I won't quote the entire thing just the parts we disagree.  The discussion we had before about throwing left was mostly regarding rolling left and throwing and you posted several clips of where he did it.  But what I'm talking about is standing in the pocket, turning and throwing left.  Again, I wish I kept stats but I believe he threw more INTs to the left then he had completions.  That is pretty dire.  As I mentioned though I think it's a form thing and is correctable.

Yeah, I know. We were talking about him throwing on the move to the left and then I added that I have more of a problem with his inconsistent mechanics when throwing from within the pocket to the left. He short-arms a lot of throws because he doesn't step into them and throws off his backfoot and the ball comes out short. I think it's an exaggeration that he threw more INTs to left than completions. That would definitely have registered in my mind, especially since I have it in my notes that he does have some trouble throwing to the left. I will definitely be taking some stats next time I watch and will post here. 

 

Quote

One your ranking of above average is not logical.  There are a lot more than 32 QBs in the league and some above average arm QBs are starting over their stronger armed backups.  Last year there were 70 Qbs who threw passes during the regular season last year, his arm would put him in the top 35 (going by above average) how is that NOT a weakness.  Especially when you factor in he's not a scrambling QB which means he is going to have to rely on his arm to get him out of trouble when he's in trouble and since he can't flick his wrist and fling 50 yards down field that is a definite weakness.

The point is... the arm strength is part of the reason why they are not starters. And since we are not talking about him being a back up and evaluating him as a potential starter for us, I think it's fair to compare him to starting QBs. But even if you take all QBs IMO he will still come below average(not top 35). I agree it's a weakness, I just don't agree where his armstrength ranks in the pantheon of NFL QBs(I think it's firmly below average, both among starters and among all QBs).  

[stitches]

@Coffeedrinker

 

Here are all his interceptions from this year:

 

 

Only 3 are on throws to the left and 2 of them are on tipped balls/drops. He definitely did NOT throw more interceptions than completions, throwing to the left. 

[CR91]

50 minutes ago, stitches said:

As I've said in other threads it's not about throwing deep. Almost any QB can throw 50 yards downfield in clean pocket with perfect platform... There's more to it. There are throws where you need velocity and throwing it on a rope 30 yards, there are throws where you have to make a throw off platform, or on the move, or across the body, or to give the ball some extra air and arc on the 50 yarder in order to allow the receiver to get there in time, etc. It's about adding additional layers of difficulty and possibilities in certain situations. Some QBs have the physical talent to do all of those, some cannot do most.

 

You don't need a cannon though is my point. It's about being Technically sound with your fundumentals. Peyton said it best, playing QB has more to do with your feet then your arm

[stitches]

1 minute ago, CR91 said:

 

You don't need a cannon though is my point. It's about being Technically sound with your fundumentals. Peyton said it best, playing QB has more to do with your feet then your arm

You won't catch me arguing against good fundamentals and technique, so we can absolutely agree on this one  They are definitely important... but in a lot of those off-schedule/off-platform/on-the-move throws there really isn't a "good fundamental", it's throwing on the move with bodies flying around, with feet not set, with the platform completely disrupted, etc. The QBs with the best athletic and physical traits (and some arm talent of course) are able to make some of those throws, while others are not. 

[Valpo2004]

1 hour ago, stitches said:

Damn, that's a lot of work you put into those QB. Props for it. I agree with a lot of your evaluations with the main difference being in degree of the strength/weakness(example "Love can't throw left" - I think I pointed out that he does have trouble with his footwork and throwing off his back foot on some throws to the left in another thread, but I don't think it's as dire of a situation as you are describing) and the level of emphasis on some of them which probably leads to different draft range evaluations but overall I think you've done a great job capturing the essence of most of those QBs.

 

My biggest disagreement is about Fromm's arm strength. I don't think it's above average and I think you know it, which is why you put it as a weakness. If it was above average it wouldn't be a weakness IMO. If you start listing NfL starting QBs by arm strength I think you will quickly realize that there is no chance in hell his arm strength would rank anywhere close to the top ...20 even I would say, let alone top 15.

 

Anyways very good write up and thanks for your effort. I enjoyed reading it.

 

To be fair the arm strength thing is the thing everyone says about Fromm.  So if you want to say that it's certainly not elite but he has enough of it, it's hard to put as a positive either.  

 

The only thing I would say about this write up is that it sounds like the writer seems to feel that Fromm's technique (which he indicates is the cause of not having power in his throws) could be corrected.  

 

I'm skeptical that you could suddenly take a player who's been throwing that way for years and suddenly change his entire technique.  

[stitches]

3 minutes ago, Valpo2004 said:

 

To be fair the arm strength thing is the thing everyone says about Fromm.  So if you want to say that it's certainly not elite but he has enough of it, it's hard to put as a positive either.  

 

The only thing I would say about this write up is that it sounds like the writer seems to feel that Fromm's technique (which he indicates is the cause of not having power in his throws) could be corrected.  

 

I'm skeptical that you could suddenly take a player who's been throwing that way for years and suddenly change his entire technique.  

If it is a problem with his technique(not sure it is) it can probably be improved a bit, but I'm not sure how much.

[Valpo2004]

19 minutes ago, stitches said:

@Coffeedrinker

 

Here are all his interceptions from this year:

 

 

Only 3 are on throws to the left and 2 of them are on tipped balls/drops. He definitely did NOT throw more interceptions than completions, throwing to the left. 

 

The two biggest problems I see based on this.

 

1. REALLY BAD field vision/awareness.  Most of the time it seemed he either forgot an opposing player was there or didn't notice that the DB was breaking on the route.  

 

2. He doesn't always throw the ball where only his guy can get it.  There several picks in there that he looked like he was throwing with no defense on the field.  Would have been a really great throw, likely to complete if there was no defense on the field.  But because there was a defense on the field the ball was 50/50 or worse.  Several crossing or out routes he simply didn't lead his target by much.  In one case on an out-route his target had to literally stop at the hash or the numbers which made it easy for the DB to simply step in front of it. 

[throwing BBZ]

 

30 minutes ago, stitches said:

@Coffeedrinker

 

Here are all his interceptions from this year:

 

 

Only 3 are on throws to the left and 2 of them are on tipped balls/drops. He definitely did NOT throw more interceptions than completions, throwing to the left. 

 

 A bunch of scary bad,  braindead throws. 

[CR91]

32 minutes ago, stitches said:

You won't catch me arguing against good fundamentals and technique, so we can absolutely agree on this one  They are definitely important... but in a lot of those off-schedule/off-platform/on-the-move throws there really isn't a "good fundamental", it's throwing on the move with bodies flying around, with feet not set, with the platform completely disrupted, etc. The QBs with the best athletic and physical traits (and some arm talent of course) are able to make some of those throws, while others are not. 

 

Not a lot of QBs can make those on the run throws. That comes down to being smart with the ball and making the proper decision.

[Valpo2004]

23 minutes ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 

 A bunch of scary bad,  braindead throws. 

 

On the positive end I think I only saw 2 that had any pressure.  Tells me that he deals with pressure ok.  Of course none of that matters if you can't see the field.  

[Coffeedrinker]

56 minutes ago, stitches said:

@Coffeedrinker

 

Here are all his interceptions from this year:

 

 

Only 3 are on throws to the left and 2 of them are on tipped balls/drops. He definitely did NOT throw more interceptions than completions, throwing to the left. 

Thanks for the link you're fight he's bad throwing to the right as well.  4 INTs to the left.  And that was the point, in the games I watched he only had 2 or 3 completed passes to the left (there may have been a couple of dump passes but of the WR or RB is within 2 yards of the tackle, I don't consider that right or left, that is middle.

 

And condensing it all down like is what makes me wonder about the blame of new receivers and coaches... I can understand that for the overall numbers dropping and even not as many TD passes (they also had a solid running game in 2019 which Love did not have in 2018)  But those INTs were just bad throws and bad decisions.  Something you would think there would be less of with a better running game.

[FalseStart]

3rd Round prospect... 

[Coffeedrinker]

I was also afraid this was going to happen.  I really wanted this thread to discuss all 4 QBs, not just the highs and lows of Jordan Love.

 

Anyone have different or same thoughts on Eason/Fromm or Gordon?

[Fisticuffs111]

Good stuff.

 

The more I watch them, the more I waffle on what I think of two guys in particular: Love and Gordon. Not that I have them in the same tier, I like Love more. But both have moments where they play like a top prospect and both have moments where they look, well, bad.

 

Both have huge weaknesses that I think are gonna be tough to overcome. Gordon’s footwork, and for some reason his lack of velocity stands out to me at times. And for Love, his field vision/reading coverage. 

 

Also, I’m very wary of Eason. I haven’t watched much of him but for some reason I just do not see I’m having success in the NFL. Guys that don’t handle pressure well, no thanks.

[stitches]

29 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Thanks for the link you're fight he's bad throwing to the right as well.  4 INTs to the left.  And that was the point, in the games I watched he only had 2 or 3 completed passes to the left (there may have been a couple of dump passes but of the WR or RB is within 2 yards of the tackle, I don't consider that right or left, that is middle.

 

And condensing it all down like is what makes me wonder about the blame of new receivers and coaches... I can understand that for the overall numbers dropping and even not as many TD passes (they also had a solid running game in 2019 which Love did not have in 2018)  But those INTs were just bad throws and bad decisions.  Something you would think there would be less of with a better running game.

Yeah, there are a lot of wth throws(there are more than those INTs, some didn't end up in INT). I've spent so much time trying to decipher what he was seeing on some of those with the dropping defender in coverage. There are some where he just doesn't see the dropping defender, but there are other where the defender is already there and he still throws the ball. Those are the complete headscratchers. 

 

I can't quite get the reason for some of the ones to the sidelines. The quick ones where he doesn't even read the defense it seems... it seems like he's just decided/or been told(not sure) from pre-snap to just throw the quick one on the comeback/curl routes. Like watch those... What is happening there? Is it the receivers not coming back for the ball? Is he giving up some tells presnap so the defenders know what's going to happen? On a lot of those it looks like they know what's going to happen and they jump the routes... I can't quite figure it out. I would like to see some of those TV shows before the draft to ask him. There are clear patterns in his INTs... there are really 3 big reasons:

1. footwork/mechanics (first WF, the Stingley one in the LSU game)

2. doesn't see dropping defender

3. those quick ones... SO MANY!! This is the thing... it happens once in a while to get caught and for a DB to jump a comeback/curl route... but this is something else... there are SO MANY of them. There has to be some underlying reason that makes sense, because this is not a post-snap read throw that he's making on most of those... he seems to know what he's going to do before the snap... and on a lot of them so does the defender it seems. 

[stitches]

11 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

I was also afraid this was going to happen.  I really wanted this thread to discuss all 4 QBs, not just the highs and lows of Jordan Love.

 

Anyone have different or same thoughts on Eason/Fromm or Gordon?

 

Sorry for hijacking this one again 

 

Eason is an interesting case because if he had better pocket presence and didn't panic so much under pressure I actually think he might be better prospect than Herbert(I thought he outplayed him in the Oregon vs Washington game). He does a lot of things really well in the pocket. He has good enough mobility for his size, he has great arm... but to me it looks like he lacks any composure and feel for the pocket. 

 

Fromm IMO is similar in this respect, but it manifests itself in a different way - while Eason becomes frantic and panicky under pressure, Fromm seems to be just content to sit there like a statue and take the hit. I think you somewhat underestimate his pocket presence issues - IMO he rarely makes evasive moves or steps into the pocket to create himself the required throwing window, unless he sees the rush coming in the most obvious situations. This is the thing that bothers me most with him too because IMO it will prevent him to showcase his other great qualities(reading defenses, anticipation and timing, accuracy on short-to-intermediate throws). The arm strength and lack of playmaking are not ideal, but I would be OK with it if he showed ability to navigate the pocket better. If he cannot escape the pocket and make plays on the move, I want him to at least be really good moving in the pocket, and IMO he's not. 

[Coffeedrinker]

25 minutes ago, stitches said:

 

3. those quick ones... SO MANY!! This is the thing... it happens once in a while to get caught and for a DB to jump a comeback/curl route... but this is something else... there are SO MANY of them. There has to be some underlying reason that makes sense, because this is not a post-snap read throw that he's making on most of those... he seems to know what he's going to do before the snap... and on a lot of them so does the defender it seems. 

One of the other weaknesses, his presnap reads are poor.  Since he played in a one read offense (a read flag for a college prospect going to the NFL), he would decide where he was going with the ball before the snap and went there.

[stitches]

3 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

One of the other weaknesses, his presnap reads are poor.  Since he played in a one read offense (a read flag for a college prospect going to the NFL), he would decide where he was going with the ball before the snap and went there.

I don't entirely agree with this one though. Like... he has some of those one/no read throws, but there are plenty of him making multiple and even full field progression reads and especially in the 2018 film he was actually showing good promise with those... he was going through the reads quickly and efficiently. I don't know what happened this year with the new coaching staff... was it the playcalling by the new coaches? Was it the talent he was working with? Did he take a step back in this regard himself? I'd love to be a fly on the wall when Ballard and Reich show him film and ask him about some of those situations and reads/no reads. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

The good thing about Love in multiple interviews he has mentioned needing to play smarter. That shows good awareness.  He has talked about the fine line of taking chances and being stupid.  

[aaron11]

id rather trade up for tua or herbert, than wait for love at 13

 

i could understand going with Eason, Fromm or Gordon but there probably wont be much hype from the fans until we see them do something in the league.  its really a crap shot if any of those three will be much of an upgrade over jacoby 

[Zoltan]

 

3 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

I was also afraid this was going to happen.  I really wanted this thread to discuss all 4 QBs, not just the highs and lows of Jordan Love.

 

Anyone have different or same thoughts on Eason/Fromm or Gordon?

 

I'm really surprised you didn't mention Gordon's lack of throwing the ball over 20 yards

[Zoltan]

4 hours ago, stitches said:

@Coffeedrinker

 

Here are all his interceptions from this year:

 

 

Only 3 are on throws to the left and 2 of them are on tipped balls/drops. He definitely did NOT throw more interceptions than completions, throwing to the left. 

 

Man who ever teaches the WRs at Utah state needs to teach them to catch with there hands and not there body, there was a couple of INTs that could of at least been incompletions if they tried to catch it with there hands instead of waiting for the ball to get to them. Heck the DBs looked like they had better catching technique lol

[chad72]

Moving back into late first round was always my prediction for Love with the Colts with the best defensive player at No.13, I haven't changed my stance.  

[Fluke_33]

7 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

 

I will start by saying there are some great people on youtube.  They split the games so you can see every play by a QB in an entire game in 8-15 minutes.  And this past weekend my wife got sick, so as I was hanging around to take care of her, I watched every game available of the four QBs.  I did not review Burrow, Tua, Herbert or Hurts, the first 3 because I think they will be gone by pick 13 and Hurts because I think the idea that he has a future as an NFL Qb is media hype because he seems like a hard working, likeable kid but he just does not seem like a QB to me.  I will say upfront, some strengths or weaknesses cannot be seen on game film, such as leadership, work ethic, ability and desire to improve, etc.

 

 

Thank you so much for this!  I don’t have the time for that.  
 

p.s.   I take care of my girlfriend by watching sports all the time.  It must be a universal cure all!   

[EastStreet]

If you have watched 2019, and not 2018, you're missing the reasons why he's in the conversation in the first place.

[Moosejawcolt]

8 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

I will start by saying there are some great people on youtube.  They split the games so you can see every play by a QB in an entire game in 8-15 minutes.  And this past weekend my wife got sick, so as I was hanging around to take care of her, I watched every game available of the four QBs.  I did not review Burrow, Tua, Herbert or Hurts, the first 3 because I think they will be gone by pick 13 and Hurts because I think the idea that he has a future as an NFL Qb is media hype because he seems like a hard working, likeable kid but he just does not seem like a QB to me.  I will say upfront, some strengths or weaknesses cannot be seen on game film, such as leadership, work ethic, ability and desire to improve, etc.

 

Anthony Gordon.

Positives - He has great field vision.  People talk about he's a product of the system, etc, etc.  And it's true, in another system he would not have thrown for 5500+ yards and 48 TDs.  On the flip side though, there are not many QBs would have have thrown for 5500+ yards and 48 TDs in Leach's system especially not 1st year starters.  I believe he would have been successful in many other systems as well.  Yes his receivers were wide open but when you watch multiple games those receivers were not always the first read (like some other Qbs I reviewed), he scans the field quickly, makes a decision and pulls the trigger.  Which leads me to his next positive his release.  The beauty of a quick release is that is does not give defenders time to react.  Tied in with his field vision is he seems to not only see the entire field very quickly but he processes that information quickly.  Many times I saw him scan the field then come back to his 1st read again, he was able to spot him instantly and throw the ball.  Lastly, his anticipation is top notch.  because of his ability to see the field and process the information, not only does he do an excellent job of anticipating where his receivers will be but also he does a great job of anticipating what the defenders will do, so because of that he is able to throw his receivers open on many occasions or put the ball where only his receiver can make a play on it.  One last point on his receivers being wide open, for Love people like to blame the talent of his receivers... Gordon did not have any real talented receivers/TEs/Rbs either. they were open a lot because of the offensive system and because Gordon threw them open.

 

Weaknesses - Has not footwork... at all.  The coaches did him a disservice by not working on his throwing fundamentals.  I don't mean his throwing motion but how to drop back and move while keeping the proper foot spacing and balance so the body can be in the correct position to throw.  Mobility is lacking.  He can move around in the pocket ok but that is about it, he seems to trip over his own feet when he tries to scramble.  No feel in the pocket.  He has good peripheral vision so he move when he sees the rush but he doesn't sense with the rush is coming.  That was evident on several occasions when he was sacked standing flat footed.  He makes some boneheaded decisions but whether they are bone headed decisions or lack of experience decisions I do not know.

 

Overall, I think Gordon is an excellent pro prospect but he is at least a year away from being ready to play an NFL game and probably two years from being counted on as a starter.  And that is assuming that A QB coach can work with him and he takes to coaching and is able to apply what he learns.  That, combined with his 1 year as a starter in a college system that QBs have not transitioned well in the NFL, his slight stature at 6'2 199lbs, Gordon will probably not be drafted before the 5th round.

 

Jacob Eason

At first glance you wonder why Eason is not considered in the top with Burrow, Tua and Herbert but as you watch entire games it becomes obvious.

Positives:  IMO, Eason is the best QB in the draft at operating under center.  I wish I would have kept stats but he looked incredible when operating under center... his drop backs were smooth and consistent, he scanned the field well while dropping back, he made a decision, planted his back foot and then had near perfect form in his throwing motion.... every time.  His arm.  Not just his arm strength but his throwing motion is nice and fluid and consistent, combined with his strong arm he can place the ball exactly where he wants, anywhere on the field, consistently.  His mobility... yeas, I now a lot of people with disagree but he is a fluid, natural runner who can pick up yards with his legs when he needs to but he only has adequate speed.  Plus he's a big, strong QB who will plow into the line to pick up a first down on 3rd/4th and short.

 

negatives:  He does not do a good job of handling pressure.  His first move when the rush was coming was to spin backwards and roll left.  In the first couple of games of the season that worked but it was obvious teams learned that was his move and really shut it down in the later games in the season.  Since that seemed to be his only move to combat the rush, he will not get away with that in the NFL.  And, even when he did escape the rush he was not good throwing while running to his left.  His decision making.  Several times you could see he had two receivers at two levels, the closer receiver would be very open, the receiver at the deeper level would be well covered, rather than throwing to the short receiver for a good gain, he would try to force the ball into the deeper receiver with very mixed results.

 

Overall:  I think Eason will be the 4th QB taken in the draft after Burrow, Tua (assuming he passes his physical) and Herbert.  Eason, though reminds me a lot of Jeff George... all the tools and ability in the world it just seems something is lacking between the ears.  I will be surprised if he stays in the NFL past his rookie contract.

 

Jordan Love:  This one is going to get me the most hate mail because a lot of people on this forum have bought the hype that he is Patrick Mahomes esqe and his poor play is a product of his team and coaches.  And it is somewhat true but not totally.

 

Positives:  He is a smooth athlete with a good combination of touch and and power and accuracy on a lot of his throws.  He is at his best when he's rolling to his right and throwing on the run.  He seems to have good pocket awareness and can feel the rush around him even if he doesn't see it.  Does not seem to panic under pressure.  Has some escapability in him to extend plays when the pass protection breaks down.  He seemed to have good control of the offense.  Seems to be very competitive

 

negatives:  He cannot throw left.  When you watch Love throw ahead or to the right, he has pretty good form (he relies on his arm too much but overall his form is fine) but when he throws to his his mechanics break down and his throw accuracy and velocity drop considerably.  He is not good at presnap reads.  Several of his interceptions were not because his receivers couldn't get open or because they had not separation, they were because his misread things at the LOS and threw the ball immediately after the snap.  The rest of his INTs (not counting a couple that were in the desperation time towards the end of the game) were because he has a blind spot to underneath coverage.  He stares down his receiver and the underneath coverage slides over and he is unaware of it.   I'm not basing this on just the Wake Forest game but if you want to see multiple examples of this watch that game.  He had was appears to be an impressive stat line with over 400 yards and 3 TDs but he also threw 3 INTs (2 of them were all because of Love, not the receivers, 1 was with 17 seconds left in the game and they were trailing) and could have easily had 2 more INTs if the defenders had not dropped the easy INTs.

 

Overall, I do want to point out that even though the negative paragraph is longer than the positive paragraph, if you read closely, I do list more positives than negatives.  Love definitely has some tools to work with but he does not work to be ready for the NFL.  And personally I think his ceiling is about a Dak Prescott level.. someone who, if he's with a talented team will have some impressive wins but won't be the type of QB to win games when everything is on the line and he needs to outplay and out think the defense.  It's funny after watching these games films Friday night and Saturday morning, I think watched the XFL on Saturday.  So I'm watching the Houston Roughnecks and out trots, Indy's own practice squad king, P Walker as the starting QB, so I'm watching him play and he's doing well but I keep think that he reminds me of someone... then it hit me, Love plays just like Walker, same pocket movement, same throwing motion/style (Love does not pat the ball like Walker which is why Love may be able to make a career in the NFL), same arm strength, same running style and oddly enough same break down of mechanics when throwing left.  Personally I think Love is a 3rd round talent that will be drafted higher and may sneak into the 1st round when team trades up to pick him towards the end of the round.

 

Jake Fromm:

Positives:  Since I saw a lot of the positives from Fromm that have been discussed... accuracy, touch, anticipation on his throws, understanding of the offense, head for the game, etc.  I won't go into great detail about that.  Some of the positives I saw that don't seem to get talked about much.  His competitiveness, to me this really popped out in watching his games and it's one of his best attributes.  One of the ways I think this came through was on 3rd and long (6 yards or greater).  All the Qbs above on 3rd and long, the majority of their throws were little 2 or 3 yard dump passes hoping the receiver makes a play.  The majority of Fromm's passes on 3rd and long were near or past the sticks.  That is someone that wants to keep the drive going not just playing it safe or being a game manager.  His does not have scrambling ability like Wilson or Prescott or Watson, but he chooses to run at smart times and has enough speed to make positive yards and first downs when the team needs it.  He can make accurate throws from different arm angles.

 

Negatives:  His arm strength is not elite but I would classify it is above average and I think it could move into the good category with proper mechanics.  He does not consistently engage his hips and core when throwing, he's more of a step and lean thrower.  But he made multiple 20-25 yard outs throws from the far hash both to the left and right side while fitting the ball into a tight window.  He has enough arm strength for the NFL.  The only other real negative I see in his game is if one rusher is pressing the pocket he can handle it well, if two are pressuring the pocket, he doesn't seem to know what to do and he is not the type to run around until he figures it out.

 

Overall: I think Fromm is the most NFL ready QB in this group of 4, and IMO, even more NFL ready than Tue.  People say he has a limited ceiling but I don't believe that to be the case (remember people said that about both Andrew Luck and Peyton Manning) but the ceiling is determined by how well he can read and recall defenses which is how all QBs who have long careers in the NFL keep improving and playing well year after year after year. and from all reports that is one of Fromm's greatest strengths.  Since he is not ready to be a day one starter because of his throwing mechanics and lack of an elite arm, he could slip to the 2nd round but I could see either the Raiders drafting him at 19 or the Patriots drafting him at 23 if he's available.  Which means, if the Colts want him, they will probably have to draft him at 13.  2 Side notes:  If you want to see a game to convince yourself that Fromm is an NFL QB, watch the Georgia Notre Dame game, Georgia won that game because of Fromm and his competitiveness and toughness.  Also, if you want to see another potential Colts pick watch the Georgia South Carolina game and you will see why Kinlaw would be a great 3T in the Colts D.

Fromm has always been my guy.  It will b so interesting if Love is sitting there at 13 and the Colts pass. I will have my popcorn ready.

[Zoltan]

2 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Fromm has always been my guy.  It will b so interesting if Love is sitting there at 13 and the Colts pass. I will have my popcorn ready.

 

Haters gonna hate

[stitches]

6 hours ago, Zoltan said:

 

 

I'm really surprised you didn't mention Gordon's lack of throwing the ball over 20 yards

Yeah, part of it is that Mike Leach offense. It has always been like that. But part of it is Gordon too. I think I read somewhere he had only 11 throws over 20 yards all year or something like that. Can someone confirm this? This is so extreme that I'm having hard time believing it.