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Greg Cosell on the QBs of the 2020 Draft

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55 minutes ago, stitches said:

I've mentioned before that I really like Greg Cosell and his analysis of both the NFL and draft prospects, he's one of the few analysts that I know can talk dispassionately about players and Xs and Os and I value his input because he does the work and has tons of experience breaking down film and I always learn something from him. He was on Tennessee radio yesterday and here's what he had to say on some of the QBs(he talks about the Superbowl in the first half of the interview and about the prospects in the second half(at about the 20 mark of the interview for the last 10 minutes):

 

https://post.futurimedia.com/wgfx/playlist/14/listen-7586.html?cb=1580414765.455817

 

 

I'm not sure but it seems like Cosell has Love ranked no. 2 behind only Burrow. He's lower on Tua than most, higher on Love than most. His under the radar prospect is James Morgan out of FIU

I completely agree with you. He definitely has Love ranked 2. But he does say it is in the eye of the beholder for him. I would love to know about the other QBs he watched tape on. 

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17 minutes ago, BleedBlue4Shoe86 said:

I completely agree with you. He definitely has Love ranked 2. But he does say it is in the eye of the beholder for him. I would love to know about the other QBs he watched tape on. 

He was on Ross Tucker's podcast and he teased that he cannot wait to talk about the QBs in the draft after the Superbowl is over so yeah. We will probably get some more of his opinions on QBs in the various podcasts he visits. Also, he posts some of his scouting reports on his twitter page before the draft. 

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4 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

I have heard that comparison of TUA to Brees a lot.  

Tua has to go to the right team. I don’t know if I like him in Miami with Chan Gaiiley. I think Herbert fits better there. I like him in Carolina with Joe Brady who has worked with Brees and Burrow. 

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Tua is the Bob Sanders of QB's. He will be lucky if he can get through 1 season without being injured. Hip, feet, legs, etc.. Some of you people wanting Tua have to be out of your minds - just keeping it real. IMO the 2 best QB's in this draft are Joe Burrow and Jordan Love, now that is just looking at video and watching them play. How they interview will shed more light on those guys. If we draft Fromm I will be highly disappointed. I see him struggling in the NFL. Not a Herbert fan either, I can see Herbert being like another Joey Harrington.

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3 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I can see Herbert being like another Joey Harrington.

Really depends on the system he goes to. For example, I think him going to Arians in Tampa Bay is a bad idea. But if you put him with the Dolphins with Chan Gailey, I think he could really be something. Maybe Josh Allen but a rich version with more accuracy.

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3 minutes ago, Defjamz26 said:

Really depends on the system he goes to. For example, I think him going to Arians in Tampa Bay is a bad idea. But if you put him with the Dolphins with Chan Gailey, I think he could really be something. Maybe Josh Allen but a rich version with more accuracy.

 

I totally agree. You put a strong armed QB in a system where he needs to be a dink and dunk, and I feel like you are wasting that talent. But then you have a QB like you mentioned (Herbert) going to some air it out offense and you are not allowing him to succeed. The other elements to these guys being successful are if the teams have an above average Oline established to help protect them. We've seen that so many times before where a team drafts a QB, they get killed and they are either out of the league or they develop some bad habits/tendencies with the ball. So many fascinating pieces to the puzzle that either makes it or breaks it for a QB succeeding in the NFL.

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3 hours ago, stitches said:

James Morgan - really intrigued by him. I don't know if he will be invited to the combine, but if he's invited to the combine I'm fascinated by how he goes through the process, because I think this kid can end up being a 3d round-type player. He's probably not ready week 1 but he's a guy I found really interesting on tape. 

I thought this was interesting.  I haven't heard anything about this kid.  I might have to go and look at him and see.  But for Cosell to specifically mention him has me intrigued.  Especially if we go mid round QB.

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1 minute ago, BleedBlue4Shoe86 said:

I thought this was interesting.  I haven't heard anything about this kid.  I might have to go and look at him and see.  But for Cosell to specifically mention him has me intrigued.  Especially if we go mid round QB.

He was in the Shrine game and he did well in there. 

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3 minutes ago, stitches said:

He was in the Shrine game and he did well in there. 

Okay,  I will say that doing well in the "Draft Bowls" especially the lesser known one do actually mean you are great.  I am a Chattanooga Alum and our QB Nick Tiano won MVP of the NFLPA Bowl and I can tell you without a hesitation, he is not a pro prospect.  I say this lovingly because I actually know him.  So I would take the Shrine Game with a grain a salt.

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14 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Tua is the Bob Sanders of QB's. He will be lucky if he can get through 1 season without being injured. Hip, feet, legs, etc.. Some of you people wanting Tua have to be out of your minds - just keeping it real.

I honestly think the injury concerns with Tua are completely overblown. Take the hip injury out of the equation. Experts have said that it was a freak injury that you almost never see in the NFL and anyone in that same situation likely would have suffered the same fate. He had a strained knee that didn't cause him miss a snap and besides that and the hip, he's had 2 injured ankles that he opted for surgery to fix. Those were both due to a OL & a defender rolling up on his ankle. Almost anyone that happens to suffers that exact injury.

 

We're not talking nagging quad, hamstring, back issues or torn ACLs. We're talking impact injuries that anyone else would suffer in the same circumstance. The question is if there's something he does as a QB that puts himself in these positions where an injury is more likely and if so, what he can do to remedy that.

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I'm not able to listen to the audio now, but was there any mention of Eason in the podcast? I think of all the QBs (outside of the top 4 that keep getting mentioned: Burrow, Tua, Herbert, Love), he is the one I'm most intrigued about. Even more than my recent tape viewings of Fromm.

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7 minutes ago, Shive said:

I honestly think the injury concerns with Tua are completely overblown. Take the hip injury out of the equation. Experts have said that it was a freak injury that you almost never see in the NFL and anyone in that same situation likely would have suffered the same fate. He had a strained knee that didn't cause him miss a snap and besides that and the hip, he's had 2 injured ankles that he opted for surgery to fix. Those were both due to a OL & a defender rolling up on his ankle. Almost anyone that happens to suffers that exact injury.

 

We're not talking nagging quad, hamstring, back issues or torn ACLs. We're talking impact injuries that anyone else would suffer in the same circumstance. The question is if there's something he does as a QB that puts himself in these positions where an injury is more likely and if so, what he can do to remedy that.

The question is not whether someone else would have suffered the same injury... the question is - now that he's suffered that hip injury, what's the chance that he recovers fully and what's the chance of reinjury and early retirement? This is not exaggeration. This is a much worse injury than an ACL. Players return after torn ACL and play at very high level nowadays all the time. We have really small sample of players with this type of hip injury and the few examples are not great. Dennis Pitta never had any hip problems before he suffered the same injury and after it he reinjured the same hip twice in 2 years and had to retire. Bo Jackson had the same injury and he had to retire because of it too. 

 

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Totally agree with him about Tua. I just don’t see this great prospect that some others do.

 

Couple that with the injuries and I don’t want anything to do with him. Certainly not a trade up.

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15 minutes ago, harrisoncolts88 said:

I'm not able to listen to the audio now, but was there any mention of Eason in the podcast? I think of all the QBs (outside of the top 4 that keep getting mentioned: Burrow, Tua, Herbert, Love), he is the one I'm most intrigued about. Even more than my recent tape viewings of Fromm.

Yeah I think he has the greatest possibility to go in the first outside the top 4. I just saw a pff video and they said Fromm should go before Love because of his low floor and you know what your going to get. They really hate love on PFF.

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25 minutes ago, harrisoncolts88 said:

I'm not able to listen to the audio now, but was there any mention of Eason in the podcast? I think of all the QBs (outside of the top 4 that keep getting mentioned: Burrow, Tua, Herbert, Love), he is the one I'm most intrigued about. Even more than my recent tape viewings of Fromm.

He said there is a chance he's the 5th QB that sneaks in the 1st because he's a good thrower of the football, but he didn't go any deeper into analysis about him.

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I do respect Cosell a lot and if he is right bout Love,  I fear he will b to expensive. U could  b looking at top 4 pick if not lower. Let's say Burrows goes #1 and I still have a feeling that his agent may pull an Eli Manning sort of move.  Other NFL teams may view Love as #2 qb on the list. U mostly likely have to get in front of Miami and Chargers at 5 and 6. Washington and Giants most likely won't b going qb as they drafted one last year. However, Miami could trade up to #2 to assure they get Love.  Miami has tons of assets, so I fear for those that Love....Love. I  wouldn't get my hopes up for I fear he is most likely unattainable. Just saying.

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59 minutes ago, stitches said:

The question is not whether someone else would have suffered the same injury... the question is - now that he's suffered that hip injury, what's the chance that he recovers fully and what's the chance of reinjury and early retirement? This is not exaggeration. This is a much worse injury than an ACL. Players return after torn ACL and play at very high level nowadays all the time. We have really small sample of players with this type of hip injury and the few examples are not great. Dennis Pitta never had any hip problems before he suffered the same injury and after it he reinjured the same hip twice in 2 years and had to retire. Bo Jackson had the same injury and he had to retire because of it too. 

 

Tua is going to slide.  He played with elite players and injury history. Not a fan

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8 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Tua is going to slide.  He played with elite players and injury history. Not a fan

 

Hurts played with those same guys and isn't half the QB Tua is... He's as good as advertised and helped make those "elite" players even better

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1 hour ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Tua is the Bob Sanders of QB's. He will be lucky if he can get through 1 season without being injured. Hip, feet, legs, etc.. Some of you people wanting Tua have to be out of your minds - just keeping it real. IMO the 2 best QB's in this draft are Joe Burrow and Jordan Love, now that is just looking at video and watching them play. How they interview will shed more light on those guys. If we draft Fromm I will be highly disappointed. I see him struggling in the NFL. Not a Herbert fan either, I can see Herbert being like another Joey Harrington.

I'm with you.  I'm terrified of drafting the kid.  I mean even with the hip aside, he's always battling lingering something in his legs.  Now you're telling me that the hip issue is generally a long lingering issue?  No puff....just pass.

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5 hours ago, stitches said:

I'm not sure but it seems like Cosell has Love ranked no. 2 behind only Burrow. He's lower on Tua than most, higher on Love than most. His under the radar prospect is James Morgan out of FIU

Cosell on Luck and Griffin

 

Remembering back to when Cosell was a bit critical of Andrew Luck pre-draft, so I looked up his analysis (which is more balanced in  writing than some of his pre-draft interview comments were)

 

It was fair analysis by Cosell to see Luck as a system quarterback in College and wonder if that would limit him at the next level - while offering greater praise of Griffin. Yet, Luck became a notorious gun slinger...and by the following off season Cosell called him the most gifted QB in the game.

 

Perfectly good analysis of college QBs, their abilities and what systems they will flourish in or if they will flourish at all is quite slippery, even if you know what you're looking at...and Cosell clearly does...but his piece on Griffin and Luck is a great reminder that we all get to enjoy the process and live with the results.

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5 hours ago, stitches said:

he will probably be "in the eye of the beholder" QB.

 

People are all over the place on Love - #65 on PFFs big board, lower than Fromm.  

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1 hour ago, stitches said:

The question is not whether someone else would have suffered the same injury... the question is - now that he's suffered that hip injury, what's the chance that he recovers fully and what's the chance of reinjury and early retirement? This is not exaggeration. This is a much worse injury than an ACL. Players return after torn ACL and play at very high level nowadays all the time. We have really small sample of players with this type of hip injury and the few examples are not great. Dennis Pitta never had any hip problems before he suffered the same injury and after it he reinjured the same hip twice in 2 years and had to retire. Bo Jackson had the same injury and he had to retire because of it too. 

 

My position was based more on the comments that he's injury prone, which I don't entirely agree with.

 

His ability to recover from the hip injury and play at a high level is definitely a fair concern though. I don't see Bo Jackson's injury as comparable since medical technology & techniques are far superior now than back then, but Pitta's injury is definitely relevant. My hope is that Pitta's issues didn't lie with the injury in itself, but the subsequent rehab process & most likely being on a rushed timetable to get back on the field. Luckily Tua will have the time to sit for a year and not have to rush back, which could definitely help his long-term recovery.

 

I think for Tua, it all comes down to the medicals these next few months. If he gets the green light on the hip from doctors, he'll be a top QB pick.

 

* For the record, I'm personally not sold on Tua as the QB for us and him being a lefty concerns me too (which may be completely a ridiculous concern).

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13 minutes ago, #12. said:

 

People are all over the place on Love - #65 on PFFs big board, lower than Fromm.  

PFF doesn't like the low end projection. I don't either. I just don't mind it, while they put high emphasis on high floor it seems. IMO high floor is not automatically a good thing. Most times high floor for QB means mediocre QB and I'd rather us get a bad QB so we can more easily move on than a mediocre one that will tie us up for years and years in no mans land. 

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1 minute ago, stitches said:

PFF doesn't like the low end projection. I don't either. I just don't mind it, while they put high emphasis on high floor it seems. IMO high floor is not automatically a good thing. Most times high floor for QB means mediocre QB and I'd rather us get a bad QB so we can more easily move on than a mediocre one that will tie us up for years and years in no mans land. 

Too your point.  We all thought we might have a mediocre QB and we might have bad one instead.  With mediocre, in the NFL, it's pretty hard to tell the difference.

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18 minutes ago, ztboiler said:

Too your point.  We all thought we might have a mediocre QB and we might have bad one instead.  With mediocre, in the NFL, it's pretty hard to tell the difference.

I actually think we are at the mediocre range.. maybe the lower range of mediocre. Like... he's not a disaster. He doesn't lose you games left and right. For example, Deshone Kizer was bad... Rudolph has been bad, etc. Brissett is just passively there... while the bad ones actively hurt their teams when they play. 

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22 minutes ago, stitches said:

I actually think we are at the mediocre range.. maybe the lower range of mediocre. Like... he's not a disaster. He doesn't lose you games left and right. For example, Deshone Kizer was bad... Rudolph has been bad, etc. Brissett is just passively there... while the bad ones actively hurt their teams when they play. 

That's a good evaluation to be honest. If he was a disaster we would've been competing with the Bengals for Burrow. 

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6 hours ago, stitches said:

I've mentioned before that I really like Greg Cosell and his analysis of both the NFL and draft prospects, he's one of the few analysts that I know can talk dispassionately about players and Xs and Os and I value his input because he does the work and has tons of experience breaking down film and I always learn something from him. He was on Tennessee radio yesterday and here's what he had to say on some of the QBs(he talks about the Superbowl in the first half of the interview and about the prospects in the second half(at about the 20 mark of the interview for the last 10 minutes):

 

https://post.futurimedia.com/wgfx/playlist/14/listen-7586.html?cb=1580414765.455817

 

 

I'm not sure but it seems like Cosell has Love ranked no. 2 behind only Burrow. He's lower on Tua than most, higher on Love than most. His under the radar prospect is James Morgan out of FIU

 

Thanks @stitches for sharing. I agree with a large part of what Cosell says. And good description of Cosell. I agree on the dispassionate label, and like him for it. And I love the elimination/isolation dialog. 

3 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

Tua has to go to the right team. I don’t know if I like him in Miami with Chan Gaiiley. I think Herbert fits better there. I like him in Carolina with Joe Brady who has worked with Brees and Burrow. 

 

Agreed, and really the same thing applies to most QBs. Some might be awesome wherever they go, but most live or die based on where they go. Could be scheme, could be surrounding talent, could be coaching style, etc.. 

2 hours ago, Shive said:

I honestly think the injury concerns with Tua are completely overblown. Take the hip injury out of the equation. Experts have said that it was a freak injury that you almost never see in the NFL and anyone in that same situation likely would have suffered the same fate. He had a strained knee that didn't cause him miss a snap and besides that and the hip, he's had 2 injured ankles that he opted for surgery to fix. Those were both due to a OL & a defender rolling up on his ankle. Almost anyone that happens to suffers that exact injury.

 

We're not talking nagging quad, hamstring, back issues or torn ACLs. We're talking impact injuries that anyone else would suffer in the same circumstance. The question is if there's something he does as a QB that puts himself in these positions where an injury is more likely and if so, what he can do to remedy that.

 

While I agree to an extent, you simply can't ignore the frequency (of injuries in general), nor the potential of past injuries impacting his body going forward. Could they all have been freak type injuries, sure. Could he never have an ankle or hip issue again, sure. But regardless, it's something you simply have to consider. And that's on top of the time it's going to take to get him back in form (missing likely a season).

1 hour ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Tua is going to slide.  He played with elite players and injury history. Not a fan

 

I've thought this from day one. Aside from the injuries, Bama's level of talent all around has a tendency to inflate some. While there's a lot about Tua I like, he's had a top OL and top skill players surrounding him. Then add in scheme and a very high level of coaching and play calling. 

1 hour ago, BleedBlu8792 said:

 

Hurts played with those same guys and isn't half the QB Tua is... He's as good as advertised and helped make those "elite" players even better

 

I'd say Hurts isn't the passer Tua is, but Tua is not near the athlete that Hurts is. They both had similar AVG and completion %. I'd say both their successes has been, and will be, highly dependent on scheme (past and future).

46 minutes ago, #12. said:

 

People are all over the place on Love - #65 on PFFs big board, lower than Fromm.  

 

I think Love's rating/ranking will settle down post combine. 

 

Also, on PFF, keep in mind they are more stats than eye, which is fine, just should be noted. Not sure, but PFF likely doesn't take into consider that Love changed coaches and scheme, lost everyone one of his starting skill players, and 4 (really 4.5) of his starting OL in 2019. His leading WR in 2019 was a grad transfer from Utah that could crack the starting lineup while there. And IIRC, all of his pass catchers were in the 4.6-4.7 range in the 40 (that's very slow). On top of that, the D took a decent step back, creating even more need for hero ball. That's a ton of change from 2018. 

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38 minutes ago, stitches said:

I actually think we are at the mediocre range.. maybe the lower range of mediocre. Like... he's not a disaster. He doesn't lose you games left and right. For example, Deshone Kizer was bad... Rudolph has been bad, etc. Brissett is just passively there... while the bad ones actively hurt their teams when they play. 

I agree here. While his average rank of the 4 core metrics (QBR, comp%, YPG, AVG) is something like 27th, he's surrounded by a top 5 OL, and has a top 10 running game to mask a lot. I think it's possible that he improves to 17-20ish with another year, and either upgrades or health of pass catchers, but even 17-20ish is still sub par and mediocre given the level of talent he would be surrounded by. At best it's purgatory. 

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Tua is an amazing talent

 

He SHOULDNT be used as a runner......

 

He completed 71% of his passes and averaged 11.3 per pass

Burrow Averaged 8.1

 

Burrow is a better prospect.......

 

But Tua is elite as well

 

 

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7 minutes ago, MikeCurtis said:

Tua is an amazing talent

 

He SHOULDNT be used as a runner......

 

He completed 71% of his passes and averaged 11.3 per pass

Burrow Averaged 8.1

 

Burrow is a better prospect.......

 

But Tua is elite as well

And Hurts was close to 70% and 11ish per pass too.... 

Just saying... 

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17 minutes ago, MikeCurtis said:

Tua is an amazing talent

 

He SHOULDNT be used as a runner......

 

He completed 71% of his passes and averaged 11.3 per pass

Burrow Averaged 8.1

 

Burrow is a better prospect.......

 

But Tua is elite as well

 

 

Also played with 4 receivers who will all get drafted in the first round. Not knocking his skill but his guys were always wide open. Never really had to make contested throws or anticipatory ones because the receivers did all the work.

 

Still think he’s an elite talent though.

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32 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

And Hurts was close to 70% and 11ish per pass too.... 

Just saying... 

Its not the only components, of course

 

Hurts is a day 2, day 3 guy

 

Tua is a top 5...... no comparison really

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21 minutes ago, Defjamz26 said:

Also played with 4 receivers who will all get drafted in the first round. Not knocking his skill but his guys were always wide open. Never really had to make contested throws or anticipatory ones because the receivers did all the work.

 

Still think he’s an elite talent though.

Tua would be a great fit in Indy.

 

He is a good kid with leadership skills

 

If healthy.......  I would give up a couple of 1sts (and prolly a 2nd)

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I agree with a lot of what Cosell said. (like wanting to see Fromm throw in person, or in his workouts)

But this in particular:

Quote

I think 4 QBs will end up in the 1st round - Burrow, Tua, Herbert, Love will go in the 1st round ... and I think Jacob Eason can sneak into the 1st round because he's a really good thrower. 

 

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1 hour ago, EastStreet said:

Agreed, and really the same thing applies to most QBs. Some might be awesome wherever they go, but most live or die based on where they go. Could be scheme, could be surrounding talent, could be coaching style, etc.. 

Ryan Tannehill proved this to be true. Cousins did as well to a lesser extent.

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2 hours ago, stitches said:

PFF doesn't like the low end projection. I don't either. I just don't mind it, while they put high emphasis on high floor it seems. IMO high floor is not automatically a good thing. Most times high floor for QB means mediocre QB and I'd rather us get a bad QB so we can more easily move on than a mediocre one that will tie us up for years and years in no mans land. 

I think what scares me the most with Jordan Love is how fast he rises, WHEN NO GAMES ARE HAPPENING.  I always get a little nervous when people fall in love with someone based on their attributes and not on their play.  Not saying he can't play.  I actually really like him also, but he seems BOOM or BUST.

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2 minutes ago, BleedBlue4Shoe86 said:

I think what scares me the most with Jordan Love is how fast he rises, WHEN NO GAMES ARE HAPPENING.  I always get a little nervous when people fall in love with someone based on their attributes and not on their play.  Not saying he can't play.  I actually really like him also, but he seems BOOM or BUST.

You have to realize that drafting is a game of protection. And remember that whenever you hear that someone is “rising”, that just means in the eye of the media. The scouts already know who these guys are and probably already have them graded highly. 
 

Don’t sleep on the production of Love either. In 2018 he had 32 TDs and 6 INTs. That’s the Love scouts are banking on.

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