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So many people seem to forget JB before he was hurt, and all our WRs. Remember some of you thought Pascal would be cut, and he was our only reliable pass catcher not named Doyle(again some didn't want to extended contract for). My as well forget about a QB in the 1st or 2nd rounds. Unless Tua is there or Bengals don't draft Burrow. 

I would start looking at the mid to late round projected QBs. 

I want to see if we can get Chase Young. He maybe better than Nick Bosa.

 

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I don't see the Redskins trading back if Chase Young is on the block for them.  You'd have to seriously sweeten the pot to make that trade.  :)

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46 minutes ago, Matabix said:

So many people seem to forget JB before he was hurt, and all our WRs. Remember some of you thought Pascal would be cut, and he was our only reliable pass catcher not named Doyle(again some didn't want to extended contract for). My as well forget about a QB in the 1st or 2nd rounds. Unless Tua is there or Bengals don't draft Burrow. 

I would start looking at the mid to late round projected QBs. 

I want to see if we can get Chase Young. He maybe better than Nick Bosa.

 

 

You obviously didn't see Brisett's limitations like his lack of accuracy past 20 yards or getting off his first read. 

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After Herbert, no QB comes without risks of failure, IMO.

 

I'm doing a stick-with-JB mock to see what it looks like, and frankly, I'm liking it because taking one of these QBs seems to screw up the rest of the draft.

 

My first 5 picks are 3T, 1T, OT, WR, TE, and I'm getting what I think are great players at great value by simply forgetting about QB.

 

It would really improve the roster. 5 immediate upgrades to important positions. If only JB could be more accurate on the intermediate throws.

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4 minutes ago, DougDew said:

After Herbert, no QB comes without risks of failure, IMO.

 

I'm doing a stick-with-JB mock to see what it looks like, and frankly, I'm liking it because taking one of these QBs seems to screw up the rest of the draft.

 

My first 5 picks are 3T, 1T, OT, WR, TE, and I'm getting what I think are great players at great value by simply forgetting about QB.

 

It would really improve the roster. 5 immediate upgrades to important positions. If only JB could be more accurate on the intermediate throws.

You can still do all that without forgetting about QB. You're forgetting about FA.

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9 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

You can still do all that without forgetting about QB. You're forgetting about FA.

You mean a FA QB?  Yeah.

 

I'm looking at the QB from Florida International James Morgan as somebody to draft late and sit behind a more competent vet FA. 

 

First two picks in the mock are Kinlaw, then either Gallimore or Raekwon Davis.  That would solve our DT issues for many years.

 

Prince Wenago at 44 would solidify OT for years too.

 

Our trenches would be done.

 

Just gotta work out the value for the slotting.

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Just now, DougDew said:

You mean a FA QB?  Yeah.

 

I'm looking at the QB from Florida Atlantic as somebody to draft late and sit behind a more competent vet FA.  Name escapes me at the moment.

 

First two picks in the mock are Kinlaw, then either Gallimore or Raekwon Davis.  That would solve our DT issues for many years.

 

Prince Wenago at 44 would solidify OT for years too.

 

Our trenches would be done.

 

Just gotta work out the value for the slotting.

Maybe.... You could address any of the 3T, 1T, OT, WR, TE, or QB in FA.

 

Not sure who you are talking about at FAU, their QB is a soph.

 

We could take both both a QB and DT in the first if we wanted by simply trading our two 2nd to get back into the top 20.

 

While I am all for a 3T, not sure we need a 1T high in the draft. As far as OT goes, if we're not taking one in the first, the AV on OL is relatively the same through the first 5 rounds. Believe it or not, historically 4th round AV is higher than 1st rounders when it comes to OL.

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38 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Maybe.... You could address any of the 3T, 1T, OT, WR, TE, or QB in FA.

 

Not sure who you are talking about at FAU, their QB is a soph.

 

We could take both both a QB and DT in the first if we wanted by simply trading our two 2nd to get back into the top 20.

 

While I am all for a 3T, not sure we need a 1T high in the draft. As far as OT goes, if we're not taking one in the first, the AV on OL is relatively the same through the first 5 rounds. Believe it or not, historically 4th round AV is higher than 1st rounders when it comes to OL.

Got the college wrong.  Its James Morgan from Florida International.  Reportedly a rising day 3 pick.  Scouts have noticed apparently.  6'4. Accurate arm.  Takes care of the ball.

 

Yeah, traditionally a 1T would be found later, and that's where I was headed.  But Davis and Gallimore were always sitting there top of round 2, and they are both a little more than a 1T.  Can at least offer pass push when teams throw on 1st and 2nd.    Kinlaw is 6'6 and Davis is 6'7 with a huge wingspan.  Not much is going to get through up the middle, and with a lot of length to penetrate and disrupt the lanes.

 

I think Wanogo has both length and athleticism, two traits in an OT that puts him higher than most.  Can be seen as a future LT, whereas the later guys are usually RT prospects only because of being too slow footed.  A little info on PTW:

 

https://www.hogshaven.com/2019/12/30/21039460/washington-redskins-draft-profiles-prince-tega-wanogho-ot

 

 

 

 

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25 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Got the college wrong.  Its James Morgan from Florida International.  Reportedly a rising day 3 pick.  Scouts have noticed apparently.  6'4. Accurate arm.  Takes care of the ball.

Going to pass on Morgan. I watch a bit of his film and was very underwhelmed. Not all that accurate. Sub 60% this last year. I don't know enough about him to be adamant, just doesn't wow me at all based on the little I've seen.

25 minutes ago, DougDew said:

 

Yeah, traditionally a 1T would be found later, and that's where I was headed.  But Davis and Gallimore were always sitting there top of round 2, and they are both a little more than a 1T.  Can at least offer pass push when teams throw on 1st and 2nd.    Kinlaw is 6'6 and Davis is 6'7 with a huge wingspan.  Not much is going to get through up the middle, and with a lot of length to penetrate and disrupt the lanes.

We did OK vs the run this year, and I'm happy with the progression of Grover's progress. More than happy to give him another year before going outside for 1T. 

 

3T however is critical to address. Should have been addressed last year IMO. 

25 minutes ago, DougDew said:

 

I think Wenago has both length and athleticism, two traits in an OT that puts him higher than most.  Can be seen as a future LT, whereas the later guys are usually RT prospects only because of being too slow footed.

I like PTW, but there's others I like just as much. He's still a bit raw, so could indeed improve, but also bust at the next level. IIRC, read that he's much better in zone than power schemes. I'd really prefer someone that can do relatively good at both. IDK, need to look at him more. I'm still stuck looking at QB and WR, and have yet to make it to looking at other positions in depth. OT is also pretty deep this year, which is a good thing if AC does retire.

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2 hours ago, Matabix said:

So many people seem to forget JB before he was hurt, and all our WRs. Remember some of you thought Pascal would be cut, and he was our only reliable pass catcher not named Doyle(again some didn't want to extended contract for). My as well forget about a QB in the 1st or 2nd rounds. Unless Tua is there or Bengals don't draft Burrow. 

I would start looking at the mid to late round projected QBs. 

I want to see if we can get Chase Young. He maybe better than Nick Bosa.

 

Not sure why the mocking with the emoji's .     Chase young is the Best player in the draft, Yet many here would reach on Love or another bottom of the 1st round QB over that talent.

 

Good post I was actually going to make this same post, pretty much

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2 hours ago, CR91 said:

 

You obviously didn't see Brisett's limitations like his lack of accuracy past 20 yards or getting off his first read. 

Obviously you seem to forget Brissett prior to injury 2 totally different QBs. I remember the commentators raving about his ball placement. Didn't notice till they pointed it out.

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1 hour ago, WifiGuy said:

Not sure why the mocking with the emoji's .     Chase young is the Best player in the draft, Yet many here would reach on Love or another bottom of the 1st round QB over that talent.

 

Good post I was actually going to make this same post, pretty much

Thank you, I think 1st round wise only players I would trade up for is Young, Okundah, and Burrow if 1 of them falls below 5. If not cost is too high. Redskins might cause they need more picks. Bengals could be dumb and draft Herbert first.

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10 minutes ago, Matabix said:

Obviously you seem to forget Brissett prior to injury 2 totally different QBs. I remember the commentators raving about his ball placement. Didn't notice till they pointed it out.

 

Brisett was hardly throwing for 200 yards even before he got hurt. It was the run game and defense that was carrying the team.

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15 minutes ago, CR91 said:

 

Brisett was hardly throwing for 200 yards even before he got hurt. It was the run game and defense that was carrying the team.

It doesn’t matter how many yards you throw for. It matters if your getting a few big plays during the game.  Before injury he was hitting open guys and making a few big passing plays. After injury not so much. 

 

He probably has a little bit of a higher ceiling just with healthy and upgraded weapons. But it isn’t high enough to get us where we need to be.

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41 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

It doesn’t matter how many yards you throw for. It matters if your getting a few big plays during the game.  Before injury he was hitting open guys and making a few big passing plays. After injury not so much. 

 

He probably has a little bit of a higher ceiling just with healthy and upgraded weapons. But it isn’t high enough to get us where we need to be.

 

Yes, but my point is the game was never in Brisett's hands to win the game. The run game and defense carried him, but unfortunately we are not the 49ers to be able to win consistently like that.

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29 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

It doesn’t matter how many yards you throw for. It matters if your getting a few big plays during the game.  Before injury he was hitting open guys and making a few big passing plays. After injury not so much. 

 

He probably has a little bit of a higher ceiling just with healthy and upgraded weapons. But it isn’t high enough to get us where we need to be.

While chunk plays are important, yards also matter unless you have a top 5 D....

Y/A and ANY/A both have strong correlation to winning... JB is 20th and 28th in those two categories. He was close to last in air yards (29th) as well, and 26th in deep attempts. Also, JB wasn't really hitting big "called" or "scripted" plays early. Many of his longer completions were on broken plays. That's nice and all, but it's not something that can be relied upon consistently.

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11 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

While chunk plays are important, yards also matter unless you have a top 5 D....

Y/A and ANY/A both have strong correlation to winning... JB is 20th and 28th in those two categories. He was close to last in air yards (29th) as well, and 26th in deep attempts. Also, JB wasn't really hitting big "called" or "scripted" plays early. Many of his longer completions were on broken plays. That's nice and all, but it's not something that can be relied upon consistently.

You can win with 200 yards or lose with 400. Every QB is going to miss guys wide open. But they may make 5 big plays. Jacobys problem wasn’t him missing wide open guys  he just didn’t make enough big plays so those misses were magnified second half of the season.  He will improve if he starts if everyone stays healthy. Just doesn’t have a high enough ceiling.

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Just now, Chloe6124 said:

You can win with 200 yards or lose with 400. Every QB is going to miss guys wide open. But they may make 5 big plays. Jacobys problem wasn’t him missing wide open guys  he just didn’t make enough big plays so those misses were magnified second half of the season.  He will improve if he starts if everyone stays healthy. Just doesn’t have a high enough ceiling.

JB had several problems, and one of them was certainly missing wide open guys. It's been a documented gig on him since college.

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9 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

JB had several problems, and one of them was certainly missing wide open guys. It's been a documented gig on him since college.

Nobody would be talking about those misses if he had made enough big plays during games and win games by twenty points. 

 

It doesn’t even matter because he doesn’t have enough in him to take us where we need to go. Unless it was more of a confidence issue

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5 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

Nobody would be talking about those misses if he had made enough big plays during games and win games by twenty points. 

 

It doesn’t even matter because he doesn’t have enough in him to take us where we need to go. Unless it was more of a confidence issue

 

Winning doesn't mask someone's ability. Do you see how much criticism Jimmy G gets? He's only thrown 12 passes in the playoffs.

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3 minutes ago, CR91 said:

 

Winning doesn't mask someone's ability. Do you see how much criticism Jimmy G gets? He's only thrown 12 passes in the playoffs.

Jimmy G made a lot of big passing plays during the season.. You missed the point. Even the elite QB don’t hit every pass every game. They miss open guys. They just make enough big plays to over come it. 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

Nobody would be talking about those misses if he had made enough big plays during games and win games by twenty points. 

 

It doesn’t even matter because he doesn’t have enough in him to take us where we need to go. Unless it was more of a confidence issue

People on this board talked about his deficiencies (including missing open guys) when we were 5-2 and winning. They were just drowned out by the JB fan club who could only muster lazy things like "winning is the only thing that matters"...  Bad is bad regardless if you're winning or losing. People are just less likely to point it out when you are winning.

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4 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

Jimmy G made a lot of big passing plays during the season.. You missed the point. Even the elite QB don’t hit every pass every game. They miss open guys. They just make enough big plays to over come it. 

 

 

 

Jimmy G also had multiple games during the season where he had 300 and 400 yard games. Brisett only had 3 games with 300 yards and 8 games under 200 not counting the Steelers game.

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9 hours ago, Matabix said:

Obviously you seem to forget Brissett prior to injury 2 totally different QBs. I remember the commentators raving about his ball placement. Didn't notice till they pointed it out.

Yes, on the short passes, his ball placement was very good.  Many look at the intermediate/long passes as if they are the only thing that's important, sometimes even the singular point by which to judge.

 

Some of us said, including me, that JB was better at placing the ball on the short routes than Luck was.  Luck was never elitely accurate in that way and was more of an intermediate/long ball QB.  And PM was accurate with everything. 

 

Don't know if the leg bothered JB, if that was causal or he just fell apart, but that was about the time his short pass ball placement went south too. When he returned after the MIA game, he simply was not very good at anything.

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9 hours ago, CR91 said:

 

Brisett was hardly throwing for 200 yards even before he got hurt. It was the run game and defense that was carrying the team.

Than that was a play calling problem. Not a JB problem. He was near the top of the league before injury for comp. % and TD passes. Still had near top in drop passes as well.

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2 minutes ago, Matabix said:

Than that was a play calling problem. Not a JB problem. He was near the top of the league before injury for comp. % and TD passes. Still had near top in drop passes as well.

That is true.  He was near the top for total TD passes.  Of course, they were 5 yard passes, but stat wise, he was near the top.  He may have led it in week 4 or 5.

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6 minutes ago, DougDew said:

That is true.  He was near the top for total TD passes.  Of course, they were 5 yard passes, but stat wise, he was near the top.  He may have led it in week 4 or 5.

I will contend that people forget that TD passes come in all shapes and sizes. I doubt all 50 of Mahomes last year were deep balls. I also know for a fact that when Manning broke the single season TD record in Indy, he was throwing a lot inside the 10. Just saying. 
 

I would also contend TD passes inside the 10 are more difficult. Windows are smaller and everything is more bunched up. 

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11 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Going to pass on Morgan. I watch a bit of his film and was very underwhelmed. Not all that accurate. Sub 60% this last year. I don't know enough about him to be adamant, just doesn't wow me at all based on the little I've seen.

We did OK vs the run this year, and I'm happy with the progression of Grover's progress. More than happy to give him another year before going outside for 1T. 

 

3T however is critical to address. Should have been addressed last year IMO. 

I like PTW, but there's others I like just as much. He's still a bit raw, so could indeed improve, but also bust at the next level. IIRC, read that he's much better in zone than power schemes. I'd really prefer someone that can do relatively good at both. IDK, need to look at him more. I'm still stuck looking at QB and WR, and have yet to make it to looking at other positions in depth. OT is also pretty deep this year, which is a good thing if AC does retire.

I agree with you about both Morgan and PTW.  I'm not a big fan of drafting "developmental" Qbs because I don't think they ever amount to anything.  The best course in that way would be to draft Gordon as late as possible because he at least looks the part of an NFL QB, and hope that he hits, like Minshew.

 

Still love the idea of a 6'6 3T and a 6'7 1T.  Nothing is getting through the middle, and two trees right in the QBs face.  Neither would come out of the game very much, except for rest.

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My point in all this is if JB was in the draft this year he would prolly be 4th best QB. 3rd best if you look at him before the injury. So why we trying to grab someone in the top 2 rounds if we already have someone just as good. Let's grab a playmaker at WR/TE or get a dominant 3T. Or hope that Redskins or Bengals do the stupid thing.

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1 hour ago, DougDew said:

I agree with you about both Morgan and PTW.  I'm not a big fan of drafting "developmental" Qbs because I don't think they ever amount to anything.  The best course in that way would be to draft Gordon as late as possible because he at least looks the part of an NFL QB, and hope that he hits, like Minshew.

 

Still love the idea of a 6'6 3T and a 6'7 1T.  Nothing is getting through the middle, and two trees right in the QBs face.  Neither would come out of the game very much, except for rest.

Ballard is on the record saying that because if the nature of our scheme and the constant "go-go-go" demands on the linemen he wants a rotation where no one is playing anything close to 100% of the snaps. What we've seen thus far is that this means linemen playing about 65-75% of the snaps at the max and rotating a ton to keep them fresh and ready to go.

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1 hour ago, Matabix said:

He was near the top of the league before injury for comp. % and TD passes. 

easier to have a high % when you dont do much.  he was never good the team was 30th in passing this year

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1 hour ago, Matabix said:

My point in all this is if JB was in the draft this year he would prolly be 4th best QB. 3rd best if you look at him before the injury. So why we trying to grab someone in the top 2 rounds if we already have someone just as good. Let's grab a playmaker at WR/TE or get a dominant 3T. Or hope that Redskins or Bengals do the stupid thing.

No he wouldn't. This is preposterous. JB was NOT good either before the injury or after the injury. He was being dragged by great running game and defense the first half of the season. To be fair to him he was being extremely safe and wasn't losing us games (also was very efficient in the red zone) but this was not a sustainable recipe for success and we saw that in the second half. 

 

Is he going to be better than most rookies in their 1st seasons? Sure. But this is NOT the choice we should be making. This is not a choice you make for 1 year, this is a choice you make for the next 10-15 years. I'd take at least 6 QBs in this draft ahead if Brissett.

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Just now, aaron11 said:

easier to have a high % when you dont do much.  he was never good the team was 30th in passing this year

Yep. That argument is like saying - see Rudy Gobert is a better shooter than Steph Curry - his FG% is around 70 and Curry's is around 50. 

 

Jacoby had one of the lowest intended and completed air yards per attempt in the entire league. In essence it's easier to complete higher % when all you throw is short passes.

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1 minute ago, stitches said:

Yep. That argument is like saying - see Rudy Gobert is a better shooter than Steph Curry - his FG% is around 70 and Curry's is around 50. 

 

Jacoby had one of the lowest intended and completed air yards per attempt in the entire league. In essence it's easier to complete higher % when all you throw is short passes.

Think I said TD passes too but that don't matter much. When your RBs are averaging near the top you don't throw much. Passing yards get you paid. Doesn't win or lose games.

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1 minute ago, Matabix said:

Think I said TD passes too but that don't matter much. When your RBs are averaging near the top you don't throw much. Passing yards get you paid. Doesn't win or lose games.

That was on short passes too. There was some insane stat that huge majority of his TDs were on passes 5yards or less. Which is what I said too - he was efficient in the red zone. This was the best part of his performance in the first half of the season but it was not sustainable(playcalling, luck, etc.)

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1 minute ago, stitches said:

That was on short passes too. There was some insane stat that huge majority of his TDs were on passes 5yards or less. Which is what I said too - he was efficient in the red zone. This was the best part of his performance in the first half of the season but it was not sustainable(playcalling, luck, etc.)

We'll agree to disagree. I just don't think there is a QB outside the top 3 that we will get an improvement at the QB position. My knock on JB is that he doesn't seem to read the defense to good. Gordon mid round QB is intriguing. Herbert I think is a push. I think this years draft we get more pieces and let JB finish his contract.

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36 minutes ago, stitches said:

Ballard is on the record saying that because if the nature of our scheme and the constant "go-go-go" demands on the linemen he wants a rotation where no one is playing anything close to 100% of the snaps. What we've seen thus far is that this means linemen playing about 65-75% of the snaps at the max and rotating a ton to keep them fresh and ready to go.

Then I would assume that he doesn't want a lot of talent centered in one Dline player.  (Although that he said in the interview that dline is very important.)

 

So that would work against the idea that he would take a DT as high as 13.  A player that any team drafts that high MUST play a vast majority of the snaps.  Like a QB, a LG, a OT, a WR, a TE, a corner, a WILL.  They play every snap.  That's how that kind of investment in talent pays off. 

 

If you waste capital by drafting talent that doesn't play, that will catch up to you (like, IMO, drafting too many lower valued positions, like FSs and Gs high too)

 

If he plans on every DT playing less than 75% of the snaps, and that itself might be a sound strategy to keep them fresh...not criticizing that......but then it would be inconsistent for us to mock or think about a DT at #13, unless we think CB wants to continue down the Colts path of using high picks on high talent that can't be maximized either by position, scheme, or strategy. 

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4 minutes ago, Matabix said:

We'll agree to disagree. I just don't think there is a QB outside the top 3 that we will get an improvement at the QB position. My knock on JB is that he doesn't seem to read the defense to good. Gordon mid round QB is intriguing. Herbert I think is a push. I think this years draft we get more pieces and let JB finish his contract.

we are not going to be picking high next year, what will we say then?

 

no top tier qbs available, so we just never take one to develop 

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1 hour ago, Matabix said:

My point in all this is if JB was in the draft this year he would prolly be 4th best QB. 3rd best if you look at him before the injury. So why we trying to grab someone in the top 2 rounds if we already have someone just as good. Let's grab a playmaker at WR/TE or get a dominant 3T. Or hope that Redskins or Bengals do the stupid thing.

lmao this is comedy gold right here haha

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7 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Then I would assume that he doesn't want a lot of talent centered in one Dline player.  (Although that he said in the interview that dline is very important.)

 

So that would work against the idea that he would take a DT as high as 13.  A player that any team drafts that high MUST play a vast majority of the snaps.  Like a QB, a LG, and OT, a WR.  They play every snap.  That's how that kind of investment in talent pays off. 

 

If you waste capital by drafting talent that doesn't play, that will catch up to you (like, IMO, drafting too many lower valued positions, like FSs and Gs high too)

 

If he plans on any one DT playing less than 75% of the snaps, and that itself might be a sound strategy to keep them fresh...not criticizing that......but then it would be inconsistent for us to mock or think about a DT at #13, unless we think CB wants to continue down the Colts path of using high picks on high talent that can't be maximized either by position, scheme, or strategy. 

Snap count is not the only way to be impactful. I'd take 75% snaps of Chris Jones over 100% of any of our linemen for example. Hell maybe even 75% of Denico Autry is better than 100% snaps of Denico Autry. This is the way the league is going BTW. It's not just us. Another example - Nick Bosa played only 76% of snaps for 49ers. Deforest Buckner played only 78% of the snaps too. Aaron Donald played 84% of the snaps. Fletcher Cox played 79% of snaps. This is just the way the league is going. Even the best of the best linemen get rest for 20-25% of the snaps. 

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